The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

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Favourite Doctor Who villain?

The Master/Missy.
11
69%
The Great Intelligence.
1
6%
Davros.
2
13%
The Rani.
0
No votes
Rassilon.
0
No votes
The Cult of Skaro (okay, technically four villains).
0
No votes
Madame Kovarian.
0
No votes
The Doctor (he has gone off the rails a number of times).
2
13%
Other.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 16

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The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-02-03 09:59pm

So, thinking about Doctor Who in the light of Capaldi's impending departure, and I thought I'd do a thread on villains. Who (no pun intended) is your favourite Doctor Who villain, and why? What do you look for in a good antagonist, generally and for this franchise in particular?

For me, its pretty much going to be between Rassilon and the Master, I think. Rassilon is menacing and mysterious and powerful while having few enough appearances that he hasn't been too badly bungled yet (unless their's a shitty appearance in the old series that I'm not aware of). Plus he was played by Timothy Dalton. While the Master is... the Master. And generally well-acted, even if the writing of late has been less than ideal (I like the concept of a female Master regeneration, but not so much the execution- bloody Moffat :D ).

Poll includes only recurring villains, but feel free to discuss one-shots and villainous factions too.
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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby FaxModem1 » 2017-02-03 11:07pm

I see you're going by singular villains, and not races he's faced off against, such as the Daleks or the Cybermen.
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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-02-03 11:09pm

Yeah, "villain", to me, conotes an individual antagonist, although as I said, feel free to discuss factions too.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby Tribble » 2017-02-03 11:28pm

Well I picked "The Doctor", at least for the rebooted series, as he is by far his own worst enemy (which is kind of the point, but still).

EDIT: Plus if the Time War is any indication he probably wins in terms of sheer body count. There's a good reason why the Daleks and even his own species are terrified of him... by his own admission by the end of the Time War he already had more blood on his hands than anyone else in history, and that was before using the Moment*.

*Yes I'm still of the opinion that the Doctor used the Moment the first time around, but the Moment gave him the opportunity to redo that event. Wibbly-wobbly timey wimey.
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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2017-02-04 02:10pm

I voted for the Master, but I'm only really counting his classic era appearances. Delgado and Ainley were,on the whole, very good as villains even if they did get overused at times. the appearance in The Deadly Assassin was a chilling look at just how far he would go to survive. His/her new series appearances, not so much. Simm was just too manic and cartoonishly insane. the classic Master was definitely mad/insane, but it was the scary, organised, dangerously-rational kind of insane. Simm and Missy, they seemed to swing more towards manic, obsessive and generaly wacko rather than sociopathic.

I would also add a qualified vote for Davros, though only in three of his seven appearances, specifically Genesis and Revelation (of the Daleks) and Magician's Apprentice/Witchs Familiar. In Genesis he was a truly terrifying monster, but like the Master of that era while he was clearly mad and evil, he was rational and supremely dangerous (case in point, nothing seems to surprise or unsettle him right up until the very end when the Daleks turn on him). Revelation of the Daleks was just damned creepy overall, and Davros was once again wonderfully malevolent. Magician/Witch made him a character villain and did an excellent job of it imo.

His other appearances though, not so much.
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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby Parallax » 2017-02-04 04:44pm

Degaldo was the definitive version of the Master and the best Who villain to date. He wasn't a jumping loon, he wasn't a raving maniac ... he was an evil bastard but who did what he did with class and style.

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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2017-02-04 04:50pm

Parallax wrote:Degaldo was the definitive version of the Master and the best Who villain to date. He wasn't a jumping loon, he wasn't a raving maniac ... he was an evil bastard but who did what he did with class and style.


Delgado, and to a lesser extent Ainley, both fitted the TvTropes concept of "Magnificent Bastard" very well indeed. Evil, ruthless, vicious, but still a likeable guy that you had to respect.
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“I’ve always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.” - Confederate General George Pickett, on being asked why his charge at Ghettysburg failed

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby PREDATOR490 » 2017-02-04 04:57pm

Doctor

The Doctor is the worst villain in the series because he is a villain as far as my opinion is concerned. The Doctor may not go around exterminating people or seek to dominate life but he sure as hell leaves an epic trail of destruction that would make the Hulk blush.

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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-02-04 05:04pm

PREDATOR490 wrote:Doctor

The Doctor is the worst villain in the series because he is a villain as far as my opinion is concerned. The Doctor may not go around exterminating people or seek to dominate life but he sure as hell leaves an epic trail of destruction that would make the Hulk blush.


What bullshit.

The villain is the guy we see constantly going around the universe getting involved and saving people is he?
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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby PREDATOR490 » 2017-02-04 06:57pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
PREDATOR490 wrote:Doctor

The Doctor is the worst villain in the series because he is a villain as far as my opinion is concerned. The Doctor may not go around exterminating people or seek to dominate life but he sure as hell leaves an epic trail of destruction that would make the Hulk blush.


What bullshit.

The villain is the guy we see constantly going around the universe getting involved and saving people is he?


Vigilantism

In this case, a vigilante who has literally committed genocide and mass destruction on a universal scale.

'Saving people' does not change the fact the Doctor is morally questionable and done things that are wrong.

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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-02-04 07:05pm

PREDATOR490 wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
PREDATOR490 wrote:Doctor

The Doctor is the worst villain in the series because he is a villain as far as my opinion is concerned. The Doctor may not go around exterminating people or seek to dominate life but he sure as hell leaves an epic trail of destruction that would make the Hulk blush.


What bullshit.

The villain is the guy we see constantly going around the universe getting involved and saving people is he?


Vigilantism

In this case, a vigilante who has literally committed genocide and mass destruction on a universal scale.

'Saving people' does not change the fact the Doctor is morally questionable and done things that are wrong.



In fact, it does.


Generally when your motivation is 'help people' you are not the villain. What do you think would have happened if the Doctor wasn't there? The universe would have been destroyed several times over.

Seriously what 'wrong things' has the Doctor done that a) wasn't in the cause of greater good or b) worse than the actual evil shit done for evil reasons that the likes of Davros and the Master did?
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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-02-04 07:19pm

The Doctor has done some very wrong, even evil things, but I don't think "vigilantism" by itself is a fair criticism.

Its the same thing as with superhero stories: vigilantism becomes justifiable, to an extent, when their is a deadly threat that official channels are simply unable to deal with. For example, Gotham needs Batman because Gotham is a shit hole that makes Iraq look functional at times. In another city, Batman would be a villain. But in Gotham he (arguably, depending on interpretation) isn't, because Gotham's law enforcement is either not up to the job, or actively worsening the situation.

Likewise, what "legitimate authority" was going to stop both the Daleks and Rassilon in the Time War? Hell, once the Time Lord leadership went off the rails, what legitimate authority had the ability to stop just the Daleks?

Nobody.

In any case, the Doctor was a Time Lord commander in the war, and his decision to ultimately save Gallifrey was done in consultation with the Gallifreyan general, so it was as close to legitimate authority as existed under the circumstances, anyway.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby PREDATOR490 » 2017-02-04 07:58pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
PREDATOR490 wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:
What bullshit.

The villain is the guy we see constantly going around the universe getting involved and saving people is he?


Vigilantism

In this case, a vigilante who has literally committed genocide and mass destruction on a universal scale.

'Saving people' does not change the fact the Doctor is morally questionable and done things that are wrong.



In fact, it does.


Generally when your motivation is 'help people' you are not the villain. What do you think would have happened if the Doctor wasn't there? The universe would have been destroyed several times over.

Seriously what 'wrong things' has the Doctor done that a) wasn't in the cause of greater good or b) worse than the actual evil shit done for evil reasons that the likes of Davros and the Master did?


I will not get involved in a subjective argument. If you think the Doctor's motivations justify the means then good for you. I do not.

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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-02-04 08:11pm

No. How about back up your claim that he's the worst villian in the show given his wake of destructive. Given that his foes, if successful, would have destroyed all of reality that claim is objectively wrong.
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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby PREDATOR490 » 2017-02-04 10:42pm

Crazedwraith wrote:No. How about back up your claim that he's the worst villian in the show given his wake of destructive. Given that his foes, if successful, would have destroyed all of reality that claim is objectively wrong.


The Doctor is the worst villain in the show to me because unlike the rest of the villains, they do not generate a cult of personality. Few would think what the Daleks do is a good thing let alone consider them 'good guys' for doing it.
The Doctor has repeatedly indicated that he is not a good person and the series confirms that if he goes off the rails he could be just as bad as the Master with 'Timelord Victorius'.
However, the Doctor keeps marching on with most falling in line even when it gets them killed, destroying entire Cyber fleets on a whim and basically causing friend and foe alike to cower in fear of him.

The Doctor consistently and recklessly jumps through time and arbitrarily inserts himself into things with little regard for the consequences. When those consequences occur, the Doctor is not the one that will inevitably be left to clean up the mess.
The Doctor decided to 'help people' in "The Long Game" and the consequences of his actions was to screw the Earth for 100 years.

Davros called the Doctor out on what he does to his companions, years later Rory does the same thing and Danny Pink does it again. We have multiple instances of even the 'friends' of the Doctor saying he is a liar, not to be trusted and that being around him is dangerous. That is villainous to me and actions like his vengeance on the family of blood or spiteful deposing of Herriot Jones only further cement my view.

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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby Tribble » 2017-02-05 01:21am

The thing about the Doctor is that we see him being almost constantly exposed to life and death scenarios where he constantly has to make life and death decisions. And it's also been established that if the Doctor does not act, things inevitably turn out far worse... and he knows it. When you think about it, his entire life is one long struggle just to keep the universe intact. And unlike many main characters he is far from perfect - he makes mistakes, he lets his emotions get the best of him, and when he does there are consequences. And like Dumbledore, as the Doctor is more intelligent and more powerful than most of the people he comes across, his mistakes and their consequences are correspondingly bigger. He could easily be the Patron Saint of TV characters with PTSD... given what he goes through on a day to day basis it's no wonder why he's looking for other people to support him and keep him from snapping.

It's pretty clear that the Doctor isn't a hero, or necessarily even a "good" person. I don't think he's a complete villain though (I labeled him as a villain in the sense that he is own worst enemy rather than because he was evil). The Doctor's actions are almost always in response to someone doing something nasty, and usually a lot of lives are at stake. When people die around him its usually either because he made a mistake or because of circumstances beyond his control, rather than him setting out to kill them on purpose. And in any case, most if not all of his companions would have been dead if he hadn't gotten involved, and he usually warns them of how dangerous it is to travel with him and tries to dissuade them from doing so. The thing is, he knows that he shouldn't be doing things by himself and he needs others to help him, so he's kind of in a catch-22.

If the Doctor had his way, it's pretty clear he'd rather not get involved in things at all, and live in peace. And just help people. Unfortunately he is also the Universe's greatest soldier/general, with all the responsibilities and consequences that comes with that... which is exactly how Danny pegged him, incidentally.

While the Doctor's been all over the map he's usually somewhere around anti-hero / anti-villain territory IMO, depending on the circumstances.
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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby Tribble » 2017-02-05 02:01am

Just a nitpick:

PREDAOTR490 wrote:The Doctor decided to 'help people' in "The Long Game" and the consequences of his actions was to screw the Earth for 100 years.


The Doctor got involved in "The Long Game" because he realised that someone was already messing up the timeline for the worse and humanity wasn't where it should be. What he didn't realise in that episode was that the Jagrafess was merely a puppet for the Daleks, so when he left the Daleks were able to carry on with their plans.
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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-02-05 11:35am

PREDATOR490 wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:No. How about back up your claim that he's the worst villian in the show given his wake of destructive. Given that his foes, if successful, would have destroyed all of reality that claim is objectively wrong.


The Doctor is the worst villain in the show to me because unlike the rest of the villains, they do not generate a cult of personality. Few would think what the Daleks do is a good thing let alone consider them 'good guys' for doing it.
The Doctor has repeatedly indicated that he is not a good person and the series confirms that if he goes off the rails he could be just as bad as the Master with 'Timelord Victorius'.
However, the Doctor keeps marching on with most falling in line even when it gets them killed, destroying entire Cyber fleets on a whim and basically causing friend and foe alike to cower in fear of him.

The Doctor consistently and recklessly jumps through time and arbitrarily inserts himself into things with little regard for the consequences. When those consequences occur, the Doctor is not the one that will inevitably be left to clean up the mess.
The Doctor decided to 'help people' in "The Long Game" and the consequences of his actions was to screw the Earth for 100 years.

Davros called the Doctor out on what he does to his companions, years later Rory does the same thing and Danny Pink does it again. We have multiple instances of even the 'friends' of the Doctor saying he is a liar, not to be trusted and that being around him is dangerous. That is villainous to me and actions like his vengeance on the family of blood or spiteful deposing of Herriot Jones only further cement my view.


Now you see that's an entirely different argument from you initial 'trail of destruction' one and is actually subjective. So Kudos there.

You've successfully proven that the Doctor is not perfectly moral. Nor are his interventions always 100% successful and lead to good outcomes. Neither of which I particularly wished to argue. But the world is not divided into 100% perfect heroes that are successful at all things and villains. That's a ridiculous standard to hold him to. He heads round the universe doing nothing but try to help. And the show also shows us what would happen if he didn't. Remember 'Turn Left'. Not Doctor means England devolves to fascist state in short under after all the disasters that befall it, as the stars go out and reality is destroyed.

Seriously, we're taking Davros' put downs as fact now? The guy with his finger on the reality bomb. What does the Doctor do to his companions? Inspire them to try and do the right thing as well?

Even as 'Timelord Victorius' what did he do? Save someone history said should have died. What A Monster! and By the way way saying 'the series confirms that if he goes off the rails he could be just as bad as the Master' is tacit admission that he's not as bad as the Master

Your argument seems to read 'Well Davros may want to destroy all of creation but at least he's honest about.'
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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-02-07 07:57pm

Tribble wrote:The thing about the Doctor is that we see him being almost constantly exposed to life and death scenarios where he constantly has to make life and death decisions. And it's also been established that if the Doctor does not act, things inevitably turn out far worse... and he knows it. When you think about it, his entire life is one long struggle just to keep the universe intact. And unlike many main characters he is far from perfect - he makes mistakes, he lets his emotions get the best of him, and when he does there are consequences. And like Dumbledore, as the Doctor is more intelligent and more powerful than most of the people he comes across, his mistakes and their consequences are correspondingly bigger. He could easily be the Patron Saint of TV characters with PTSD... given what he goes through on a day to day basis it's no wonder why he's looking for other people to support him and keep him from snapping.

It's pretty clear that the Doctor isn't a hero, or necessarily even a "good" person. I don't think he's a complete villain though (I labeled him as a villain in the sense that he is own worst enemy rather than because he was evil). The Doctor's actions are almost always in response to someone doing something nasty, and usually a lot of lives are at stake. When people die around him its usually either because he made a mistake or because of circumstances beyond his control, rather than him setting out to kill them on purpose. And in any case, most if not all of his companions would have been dead if he hadn't gotten involved, and he usually warns them of how dangerous it is to travel with him and tries to dissuade them from doing so. The thing is, he knows that he shouldn't be doing things by himself and he needs others to help him, so he's kind of in a catch-22.

If the Doctor had his way, it's pretty clear he'd rather not get involved in things at all, and live in peace. And just help people. Unfortunately he is also the Universe's greatest soldier/general, with all the responsibilities and consequences that comes with that... which is exactly how Danny pegged him, incidentally.

While the Doctor's been all over the map he's usually somewhere around anti-hero / anti-villain territory IMO, depending on the circumstances.


I actually think Dumbledore is a really apt comparison to the Doctor, though I would not consider either a villain most of the time.

As to why he keeps getting thrown into hell, "The Doctor's Wife" pretty heavily implies that its the TARDIS's doing, as she can see the future and tells the Doctor, when he complains that she never takes him where he wants to go, that she always takes him where he needs to go.

You could easily argue that he's ultimately a pawn of the TARDIS, her instrument in keeping the universe running.
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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby mr friendly guy » 2017-02-08 12:27am

PREDATOR490 wrote:That is villainous to me and actions like his vengeance on the family of blood or spiteful deposing of Herriot Jones only further cement my view.

Hang on a minute. Harriet shoots a retreating enemy in the back after a peace agreement has been successfully negotiated. I bet you if Putin (or someone the West doesn't like) orders their military forces to shoot an enemy withdrawing as per a treaty, I don't think most people be cheering Putin on for being a bad arse or "doing what had to be done." I will also say, no one would shed tears if Putin subsequently got removed because someone spread an untrue rumour about him.

There are situations where people are so jaded that black becomes white and heroes are interpreted to be villains, because we now suddenly hold them to an impossible standard.
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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-02-08 01:00am

More like Internet Tough Guys side with Harriet over the Doctor because she Did What Had To Be Done (in their minds) and their is a certain kind of idiot who equates ruthlessness and brutality with leadership and strength.
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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby mr friendly guy » 2017-02-08 01:21am

The Romulan Republic wrote:More like Internet Tough Guys side with Harriet over the Doctor because she Did What Had To Be Done (in their minds) and their is a certain kind of idiot who equates ruthlessness and brutality with leadership and strength.

So they will love the Time Lords then. :D

I mean these are the guys who felt it was easier to simply move the Earth's solar system and screw the inhabitants rather than case out the joint when they found out a spy had a rendezvous point on Earth.

Lets not forget how they wanted to destroy the entire universe and escape the destruction thus winning the Time War.
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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby Q99 » 2017-02-08 11:42am

Here's a note on Harriet Jones: She made a bad call that caused harm,but if she was still around we know the future would be better because she is honestly
trying to help and would be good at it.

The Doctor occasionally makes a bad call- though not really that bad- and we know without him the future wouldn't be as good because he is honestly trying to help and is pretty good at it.

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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-02-09 06:13am

Their's some truth to that, but...

I doubt it would have mattered much if the Doctor hadn't removed Harriet Jones, because the Master would have probably just found a way to take over anyway in a season or so. I mean, he's the Master. Kind of out of Harriet's league.
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Re: The Doctor's Rogues Gallery.

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-02-09 07:07am

The Romulan Republic wrote:Their's some truth to that, but...

I doubt it would have mattered much if the Doctor hadn't removed Harriet Jones, because the Master would have probably just found a way to take over anyway in a season or so. I mean, he's the Master. Kind of out of Harriet's league.


I have actually seen people assume this the other way. That the only way Saxon came to power was because Ten wrecked Harriet Jones' Golden Age early.

But I tend to think you're right. Nine's prediction basically comes with a honking great asterisk mark. "Assuming no other time travellers get involved"
To the brave passengers and crew of the Kobayashi Maru... sucks to be you - Peter David


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