Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 28492
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby Simon_Jester » 2017-02-01 05:34pm

Joun_Lord wrote:Missy I don't think much bad about her was said beyond two things. One, she seemed like a different character then the Master even removing her gender. Though I heard the same thing said about the manic John Sim's Master, felt more like a different character people were just calling the Master. Second, the sexual subtext that some considered insulting towards women and some considered insulting towards the character. Some people were angry that it seemed like as soon as the Master got a vagina she wanted to bone the Doctor, that that painted women in a bad light. Other bitched that it seemed insulting that a character that was supposed to be the Doc's friend turned enemy was now acting more like a scorned lover then anything else (though to be fair I heard the same argument said about Simm's Master too).
In their defense, the idea of romantic subtext between the Doctor and the Master has been there for a loooong time, even when both characters were male and there wasn't any question in anyone's mind that they would remain so. I suspect you could find fanfics dating from at least the start of the "nuWho" era speculating that if the Master ever regenerated into a female body, exactly what happened in canon with Missy, would happen.

User avatar
Joun_Lord
Jedi Master
Posts: 1084
Joined: 2014-09-27 01:40am
Location: West by Golly Virginia

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby Joun_Lord » 2017-02-01 06:08pm

Oh no doubt on the shipping between the Master and the Doctor being nothing new, even had a female Doctor getting together with the Master in that parody with Mr Bean. Probably a rule 63 Master is nothing new either.

But the subtext has always been ambiguous (atleast as far as I can tell, though I'll admit me picking up on subtext is quite complicated). Best I can tell their relationship has always been more two close (former) friends. People who want to see them as more then friends will see evidence of their being something more especially were it was two guys. Seems like most people don't think to guys can be close without wanting to play hide the pickle in the ham sandwich.

Though I supposed the same thing can be said about a guy and girl being close friends, people automatically assume they are shagging baby yeah or atleast are wanting to.

Missy though there didn't seem to be subtext, it seemed pretty blatant she wanted to adjust the settings on his sonic screwdriver. Though it might just be people reading into it too much but I dunno.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11339
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-02-01 06:45pm

Joun_Lord wrote:Which I think really freaking sucks about Moffat's era. It had all the makings of some truly excellent television. Good actors, potentially good characters, potentially very interesting story lines both for individual episodes and the overarching story of the series, and a massively rich history to build on.

However the actors are given little to work with, even good characters turn sour, the story lines get convoluted with a few stories solving themselves, and a tendency to drown in its history to the point casual viewers might be lost.

Missy in particular was a great disappointment. She took everything wrong with Simm's version of the Master and added a unhealthy dose of sexism. Sure both the Master and Missy acted like angry ex lovers of the Doctor but it wasn't so blatant with the dude version, he still had menace, still came off as an enemy. Missy not so much.

But she is only one of many characters who sadly never got used to their full potential. Danny Pink was a really good example of this. While he started out kinda annoying by being part of the problem with the show turning into a Clara soap opera once he got interesting both in his interactions with Clara and with the Doctor and commenting on their relationship they unceremoniously killed him off.

I'm sure there are others I can't think of this second.

I really hope the next writer actually uses what they are given.


Oh, God, Danny Pink.

I really liked him. Thought he could have been another Rory even, with a bit of work. But no, they had to just drop his plot line (foreshadowing be damned) and kill him to give Clara a reason to go dark, only nothing ever really came of that either.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Joun_Lord
Jedi Master
Posts: 1084
Joined: 2014-09-27 01:40am
Location: West by Golly Virginia

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby Joun_Lord » 2017-02-02 04:47am

The Romulan Republic wrote:Oh, God, Danny Pink.

I really liked him. Thought he could have been another Rory even, with a bit of work. But no, they had to just drop his plot line (foreshadowing be damned) and kill him to give Clara a reason to go dark, only nothing ever really came of that either.


He was starting to become a great addition to the cast. The best Companions I think are the ones who make the Doctor examine himself. Danny was a soldier like the Doctor who like the Doc had regrets from his time serving. Unlike the Doctor he managed to return to relatively normal life, not let the guilt consume him. The Doctor hated him for being a soldier, hated him for being something he apparently used to love and grew to despise when he was forced into the role, hated him for learning to live with the guilt, and maybe even hated him for his connection to Clara that threatened to take her away from the Doctor whenever he needed her for a crutch.

But nope, gotta give shitty angst.

Rory was better but even with him they could have done better. They seemed to barely acknowledge him spending thousands of years in the alternate timeline that he still had the memories of, barely touched on his time as a Roman Centurion except like twice I can think of, how he should have been more of an equal of the Doctor, should have better understood him, how he died and was erased from existence and brought back somehow.

What they could have done with the character, with Amy having to deal with helping Rory come to terms with thousands of years of waiting, having the Doctor help him and Rory maybe help the Doctor deal with the lonely centuries. Could have been great but just mostly back to status quo.

Probably the worst lost potential was Jenny, the Doc's daughter. One freaking episode for the Doctor's daughter, just one. But gotta maintain the status quo, having another Time Lord running around doesn't allow the Doctor to cry about being the last Time Lord when that was a thing and doesn't allow the Doctor to cry about being alone when he's got family.

I know people say Star Trek Voyager is the place where potential goes to die but Doctor Who might get a second place medal in that contest.

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11339
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-02-02 02:25pm

One thing you're missing with Danny is that the animosity with the Doctor was hardly one way. That was the point of Danny referring to the Doctor as an officer- that while the Doctor viewed him negatively as a soldier, Danny viewed the Doctor as being like the men who sent regular soldiers off to battle.

And as we know, the best companions are the ones who can call the Doctor out when needed.

They were few and far between, but I loved the moments when they acknowledge Rory's age (in terms of memories at least), and his relationship with the Doctor that had both a kinship between them, and a degree of animosity. Rory, I felt was the only new series companion who was never really overawed by the Doctor, who never got so sucked into the thrill of his world that he stopped thinking critically about the Doctor's flaws (well, besides maybe Donna- who is also the only other full-time companion who never wanted to bang the Doctor).

Rory had the potential to be, and was occasionally allowed to be, a fantastic foil for the Doctor.

Agreed totally about Jenny being a waste- if their is one old character I'd like to see brought back, just one, it'd probably be her.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Tribble
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1881
Joined: 2008-11-18 11:28am
Location: stardestroyer.net

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby Tribble » 2017-02-02 04:54pm

I have to admit I liked John Simm's Master in his first arc. He was more or less the 10th Doctor with a bigger ego and no restraint. Yes it was kind of over the top and silly but you got the impression that John's Simms Master was putting on the whole show just to have some fun, and I rather enjoyed it. I also thought his "death" would have been a good ending for the character - the Master finally "wins" by committing suicide just to spite the Doctor and force him to live the rest of his life as the last of his species. I thought that was a neat way for a villain to score one on the Doctor and really hit him where it hurt the most. I didn't really like him in "End of Time" though, as he just went completely off the walls. It's as if RTD decided that John Simm's Master wasn't quite hammy enough the first time around, so he had to be cranked up to eleven! In hindsight they probably should have just kept John Simm's Master dead and switch to someone else when they were ready to bring the character back.

As for Missy... IMO she works fine when she's not throwing herself at the Doctor (I loved the part where she treated Clara as the canary in the coal mine).
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - the official Troll motto as stated by Adam Savage

User avatar
Iroscato
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2177
Joined: 2011-02-07 03:04pm
Location: Great Britain (It's great, honestly!)

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby Iroscato » 2017-02-02 05:09pm

I loved Missy when she's just being...The Master. The actress does a phenomenal job of dancing from zany and eccentric to deliciously evil and malicious. As above though, they really should have kept the subtext as simply that...subtext. In her first appearance, I was praying she wasn't actually The Master after watching the whole bit where she basically sexually assaults The Doctor.
By and large, though, I've made peace with the character as I did with River Song (who I thought had a fairly brilliant redemption/send-off in her last episode) and just enjoy her when she's being more Master-y.
Yeah, I've always taken the subtext of the Birther movement to be, "The rules don't count here! This is different! HE'S BLACK! BLACK, I SAY! ARE YOU ALL BLIND!?

- Raw Shark

Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent.

- SirNitram (RIP)

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11339
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-02-02 05:09pm

I don't despise Simm or Gomez's Master. But I do wish Derek Jakobi's had got more screen time before he bought it.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
Tribble
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1881
Joined: 2008-11-18 11:28am
Location: stardestroyer.net

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby Tribble » 2017-02-02 05:32pm

Chimaera wrote:I loved Missy when she's just being...The Master. The actress does a phenomenal job of dancing from zany and eccentric to deliciously evil and malicious. As above though, they really should have kept the subtext as simply that...subtext. In her first appearance, I was praying she wasn't actually The Master after watching the whole bit where she basically sexually assaults The Doctor.


I didn't help that we had no explanation as to why Missy survived, how she escaped Gallifrey / pocket universe Gallifrey was in, why she regenerated, and why her body was no longer "dying". And for that matter, why the Doctor couldn't sense the presence of another Timelord when it was shown several times that he could (the main reason the Master built the satellite network in The Sound of Drums was to mask his presence). "Utopia" was basically an entire episode dedicated to explaining how the Master survived the seemingly impossible and why the Doctor couldn't detect him... all we got in Missy's case was a one-liner. I mean, it's not the end of the world or anything, but I was hoping for a bit more than that.

I like the actress and boy is she working hard to make lemonade with the lemons given to her (just live everyone else it seems).

Chimaera wrote:By and large, though, I've made peace with the character as I did with River Song (who I thought had a fairly brilliant redemption/send-off in her last episode) and just enjoy her when she's being more Master-y.


If you skip Season 6 River works out fine (Or at the very least "Let's Kill Hitler" as that's the episode that really messed her up story-wise). Plus she gets bonus points for being perhaps the only character I know that has three separate send off episodes and it totally making sense in context :P

The Romulan Republic wrote:I don't despise Simm or Gomez's Master. But I do wish Derek Jakobi's had got more screen time before he bought it.


Ya, I would have liked to have seen more of Derek Jacobi too, given what we saw he would have made a great version of the Master (just like how I would have loved to have seen more of John Hurt's War Doctor now that I think of it). :(
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - the official Troll motto as stated by Adam Savage

User avatar
Iroscato
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2177
Joined: 2011-02-07 03:04pm
Location: Great Britain (It's great, honestly!)

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby Iroscato » 2017-02-02 05:52pm

Tribble wrote:Ya, I would have liked to have seen more of Derek Jacobi too, given what we saw he would have made a great version of the Master (just like how I would have loved to have seen more of John Hurt's War Doctor now that I think of it). :(

Thinking on it, a mini-series of some sort starring Hurt and Jacobi and set against the backdrop of the Time War could've been amazing. I know Jacobi being the War Doctor's Master wouldn't make much sense because of continuity, yadda yadda - but that would be one discrepancy I could happily live with being handwaved for the sheer awesomeness of seeing these two classic old thespians cross swords in the DW world :P

Sadly, it shall never be so now, however unlikely it was before...
Yeah, I've always taken the subtext of the Birther movement to be, "The rules don't count here! This is different! HE'S BLACK! BLACK, I SAY! ARE YOU ALL BLIND!?

- Raw Shark

Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent.

- SirNitram (RIP)

User avatar
Iroscato
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2177
Joined: 2011-02-07 03:04pm
Location: Great Britain (It's great, honestly!)

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby Iroscato » 2017-02-02 05:53pm

In fact, somebody fanfic that (non-creepily) this instant - I'll read the fuck out of it.
Yeah, I've always taken the subtext of the Birther movement to be, "The rules don't count here! This is different! HE'S BLACK! BLACK, I SAY! ARE YOU ALL BLIND!?

- Raw Shark

Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent.

- SirNitram (RIP)

User avatar
Eternal_Freedom
Castellan
Posts: 8407
Joined: 2010-03-09 02:16pm
Location: Bound in a nutshell
Contact:

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby Eternal_Freedom » 2017-02-02 06:08pm

That would have been a miniseries with epic-level potential, but I suspect Moffatt would have messed it up somehow (or maybe not, Day of the Doctor was excellent after all).

A pity it would never appear. Perhaps we might get Jacobi versus McGann's Doctor as the later tries to avoid the war and the former runs from it?
"I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams" - Hamlet

“I’ve always thought the Yankees had something to do with it.” - Confederate General George Pickett, on being asked why his charge at Ghettysburg failed

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

User avatar
Bedlam
Jedi Master
Posts: 1148
Joined: 2006-09-23 11:12am
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby Bedlam » 2017-02-03 02:25pm

Well there are four seasons of John Hurt as the War Doctor in audio form from Big Finish and Derek Jacobi stared in one of the Dr Who Unbound audios playing a Dr Who writer in a universe where Dr Who never got past a pilot.

User avatar
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9557
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England
Contact:

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-02-03 02:39pm

Bedlam wrote:Well there are four seasons of John Hurt as the War Doctor in audio form from Big Finish and Derek Jacobi stared in one of the Dr Who Unbound audios playing a Dr Who writer in a universe where Dr Who never got past a pilot.



Okay, I got to know, what does the War Doctor call himself since it's not Doctor?
To the brave passengers and crew of the Kobayashi Maru... sucks to be you - Peter David

User avatar
Bedlam
Jedi Master
Posts: 1148
Joined: 2006-09-23 11:12am
Location: Edinburgh, UK

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby Bedlam » 2017-02-03 02:46pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
Bedlam wrote:Well there are four seasons of John Hurt as the War Doctor in audio form from Big Finish and Derek Jacobi stared in one of the Dr Who Unbound audios playing a Dr Who writer in a universe where Dr Who never got past a pilot.



Okay, I got to know, what does the War Doctor call himself since it's not Doctor?


He doesn't, he generally doesn't go by any name at all. Almost everybody around him still calls him the Doctor and he grudgingly accepts that rather than ignoring them. I think in a recent one set in cold war Berlin he went by the good old Dr John Smith.

User avatar
Tribble
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1881
Joined: 2008-11-18 11:28am
Location: stardestroyer.net

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby Tribble » 2017-02-03 02:58pm

Crazedwraith wrote:
Bedlam wrote:Well there are four seasons of John Hurt as the War Doctor in audio form from Big Finish and Derek Jacobi stared in one of the Dr Who Unbound audios playing a Dr Who writer in a universe where Dr Who never got past a pilot.



Okay, I got to know, what does the War Doctor call himself since it's not Doctor?


IIRC, he doesn't actually give himself a name and just rolls with whatever people call him, though he has used "John Smith" on occasion. He won't flat out ignore anyone who calls him the Doctor though.

Apart from being called "the Doctor" his most common names during the Time War seem to be "The Warrior" "The Renegade" "The Oncoming Storm" etc.

EDIT: Bedlam beat me to it :P
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - the official Troll motto as stated by Adam Savage

User avatar
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 9557
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England
Contact:

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby Crazedwraith » 2017-02-03 03:08pm

That sounds just as awkward and contrived as the concept always seemed. Though Hurt managed to sell in DoftD
To the brave passengers and crew of the Kobayashi Maru... sucks to be you - Peter David

User avatar
Tribble
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1881
Joined: 2008-11-18 11:28am
Location: stardestroyer.net

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby Tribble » 2017-02-03 03:24pm

Crazedwraith wrote:That sounds just as awkward and contrived as the concept always seemed. Though Hurt managed to sell in DoftD


Well, the Moment pointed out that internally he still thinks of himself as the Doctor, he just refuses to say as much out loud because he believes he doesn't have the right to call himself that. He calls himself "John Smith" when specifically asked for a name but that's about it.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own" - the official Troll motto as stated by Adam Savage

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11339
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-02-03 08:55pm

Crazedwraith wrote:That sounds just as awkward and contrived as the concept always seemed. Though Hurt managed to sell in DoftD


Apparently, it was originally supposed to be the 9th. Doctor in the role, but that fell through and they created the War Doctor when they couldn't get Eccleston back (source I believe is the SFDebris review of Day of the Doctor).

It worked out pretty well in the end, because they got John Hurt as the Doctor.
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

User avatar
jwl
Jedi Master
Posts: 1056
Joined: 2013-01-02 04:31pm

Re: Peter Capaldi steps down as the Doctor

Postby jwl » 2017-02-04 08:14am

Crazedwraith wrote:
The Romulan Republic wrote:
And yeah, it seems three years (or rather, three full seasons) as become the standard run for the new series.


IIRC That was pretty much the average in old Who as well. The Fourth Doctor was the notable exception.

Yes, but Troughton and Hartnell had much longer seasons, C. Baker got forced out, and McCoy had the series cancelled on him.


Return to “Science Fiction”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 5 guests