The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-21 09:28pm

Parallax wrote:I'm not sure if the Death Star could resist being towed by the TARDIS. In Creature from the Pit, the TARDIS towed a neutron star that an alien race had decided to launch at a planet.

From Wiki:
The Doctor has rescued the Tythonian just in time – it seems Tythonus has declared war on Chloris over the missing ambassador, and has despatched a neutron star to collide with Chloris’ star and destroy the system. It is due to collide within the next twenty-four hours. Working against the odds, Erato, from his reconstituted spacecraft, weaves a metal covering around the star, enabling the Doctor, using the TARDIS gravity beam, to draw the star off course and neutralise the danger.

Because nothing says overkill like chucking neutron stars at a planet. The mass and momentum the neutron star must have had ...


Even I forget sometimes how absurdly wanked the Who-verse is. Pretty near the top of the ladder barring shit like the Q.

One Time Lord with a TARDIS vs. the whole Empire, with the most stringent limits on changing history in Who in place, might be a fair fight, and only because of the force. Take away the Force, and its probably a curb stomp.
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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby Parallax » 2017-01-21 10:34pm

Yes and no.
The Doctor (and The Master, The Rani, etc) are definitely special cases. Most Time Lords we've seen are pretty damn gormless beurocrats who cave at the first sign of any real opposition. For example, see The Invasion of Time wherein *The Sontarrans* of all races, almost conquered Gallifrey. Yes, they had the Doctor's help as part of a larger scheme but that's beside the point.

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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-21 11:40pm

Okay, let me clarify-

One Time Lord, presuming that Time Lord is at least semi-competent and has a spine. ;)
"Our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. As a nation, we began by declaring that "all men are created equal." We now practically read it "all men are created equal, except negroes" When the Know-Nothings get control, it will read "all men are created equal, except negroes, and foreigners, and Catholics." When it comes to this I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretence of loving liberty -- to Russia, for instance, where despotism can be taken pure, and without the base alloy of hypocracy." - Lincoln.

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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby PREDATOR490 » 2017-01-22 02:56am

Magic vs. The Force

The Doctor has encountered magic before in the Shakespeare code. The witch literally stopped his heart and the Doctor gives some weird handwave to magic vs science in that episode. I would expect the Doctor to believe the Force exists but I can see him being arrogant enough to dismiss it.
This is going to end very badly for him if he encounters Vader and / or Palpatine - I actually would expect this to happen because the Doctor likes to grandstand enough that he may just seek out Palpatine / Vader to give them a load of his branded bullshit. The Doctor may have the ability to resist being mentally shredded by a Force user but nothing protects him from being used as a bouncing ball.


Doctor vs. Rogue One

The TARDIS translates languages for the Doctor. Those translations only happen because the TARDIS knows the languages.
Unless someone is going to submit the Timelords have been to the Star Wars universe then the TARDIS cannot translate what it does not know. This entire scenario falls apart really quickly when the Doctor cannot even understand what people are saying. However, insert obligatory vs. scenario justification handwave.

I do not imagine rebels are going to be keen having some random nobody that behaves like the Doctor coming with them on their extremely super secret mission. The Doctor is very rarely subtle and the rebels do not have time to put up with his eccentric bullshit. I see no reason why the rebels will reveal their secrets to him or why he would openly reveal everything about himself to such a point that 'tagging along' works.

Space Monk actively helped them and fought by their side to earn their trust. I find it unlikely the Doctor is going to get involved in a firefight between the rebels and stormtroopers. Even if he does, the Doctor is likely to start waving his sonic screwdriver around to disable EVERYONE's weapons so he can start preaching.
Even with that preaching, neither side is going to back down or in a position to allow the other to live. The Doctor is in a very poor position to play referee and his branded form of judgemental rhetoric will not be tolerated. The Doctor does not like being challenged and I cannot see either the stormtroopers or the rebels being receptive to the Doctor giving them his usual "Fear me the oncoming storm" garbage.

Best case scenario: The rebels kill the stormies and get dragged to Saw with the Doctor pulled in and giving them abuse the whole way
SAW has no reason to talk to the Doctor with more pressing issues at stake and the chance of interaction is extremely short before the Death Star hammers the planet.

The Doctor getting involved really depends on the very flimsy idea the Doctor will establish enough rapport with the group for them to trust him AND overcome the problems the Doctor has. I do not see a good rapport being formed with the Doctor's attitude to people carrying weapons in the time before the Death Star nukes the planet. I find it more plausible Jyn and Co. deploy on their mission while the Doctor gets left behind because they have no reason to take him with them and he refuses to go with them anyway.

Doctor remotely recalls his TARDIS and goes on his way while Jyn and Co. go on theirs.

What will the Doctor do: If he is consistent, he will behave so brazenly to the point he gets captured (Probably willingly at that) and dragged before Tarkin much like Genesis of the Daleks with Davros.

Peter Capaldi vs. Peter Cushing

Depending on how favourable the plot writer is: Tarkin kills the Doctor, tortures him or calls for Vader.


As for the entire movie in general:

Jyn and the rebels pretty much do everything like it was before. The only thing that changes is if the Doctor survives and cripples the Death Star.
In which case: Scarif does not get nuked but it all turns out it was for nothing because the Death Star mysteriously got destroyed by some mysterious "Doctor".
The plans are not needed because the Death Star has been destroyed.


Future of Star Wars

The Emperor and Vader lose their shit trying to figure out what the hell just happened. Rebels continue fighting while the Empire goes on a rampage blaming them for what happened. Death Star MK2 construction gets started at some point.
Doctor either goes back to his own universe or decides to keep messing around in Star Wars. If he is predictably stupid / driven then he will confront Vader and the Emperor.

What happens from that confrontation would be grounds for multiple fanfics.

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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby Tribble » 2017-01-22 03:54am

The Doctor has encountered magic before in the Shakespeare code. The witch literally stopped his heart and the Doctor gives some weird handwave to magic vs science in that episode. I would expect the Doctor to believe the Force exists but I can see him being arrogant enough to dismiss it.


The Doctor also once channeled everyone's thoughts to give himself powers including telekinesis and ability to deflect laser bolts in Last of the Time Lords. He saw the Master shooting lightening bolts and flying in End of Time. And the last episode involved a magic wish crystal that literally granted a kid a bunch of super powers. And this is just the top of my head in Nu Who, there might be plenty of examples where he has seen superhuman / force like abilities before. Given all of his experiences IMO there really isn't much he hasn't come across by now, and if he knew about the Force, what powers it conveyed and who had it he would take it seriously. The thing is in this scenario if he's going to get any info, it wouldn't be much more than "Force exists and is powerful" which doesn't really help him at all.

This is going to end very badly for him if he encounters Vader and / or Palpatine - I actually would expect this to happen because the Doctor likes to grandstand enough that he may just seek out Palpatine / Vader to give them a load of his branded bullshit. The Doctor may have the ability to resist being mentally shredded by a Force user but nothing protects him from being used as a bouncing ball.


Agreed, with the possible exceptions of the War Doctor and early 9th Doctor.

The TARDIS translates languages for the Doctor. Those translations only happen because the TARDIS knows the languages.
Unless someone is going to submit the Timelords have been to the Star Wars universe then the TARDIS cannot translate what it does not know. This entire scenario falls apart really quickly when the Doctor cannot even understand what people are saying. However, insert obligatory vs. scenario justification handwave.


This raises an interesting question. In other sources outside of the TV series the Star Wars universe exists in the Doctor Who universe (as does the Star Trek universe). In the TV series there have been a couple of references to the Star Wars films over the years, so depending on how much the Doctor knows about them this could influence the scenario quite a bit. The storm troopers, Star destroyer and Death Star are kind of big giveaways that he's in the Star Wars universe.
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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby Parallax » 2017-01-22 06:48am

The TARDIS translates languages for the Doctor. Those translations only happen because the TARDIS knows the languages.

I would assume that the TARDIS can learn languages by scanning whatever is available. Such as ... oh, I don't know ... any protocol droids that happen to be in the area. Do we have any lists of languages the TARDIS doesn't know? All I can think of off hand is the writing from The Satan Pit.
OTOH, it translates baby for the Doctor. And that's not, by any stretch of the imagination, any sort of coherent language. It also has known languages from places it had no way of knowing - such as House, the various inhabitants of E-Space and so on.

Agreed, with the possible exceptions of the War Doctor and early 9th Doctor.

I would also include the 7th Doctor on that list. When it comes to being a ruthless cunning bastard, you can't top the 7th. The 7th also tended to avoid grandstanding (except when he did it to purposefully piss people off, such as with Davros) and instead made the enemy do themselves in. He also did everything without ever using The Sonic(tm).

I would also suggest that either the 7th or the 2nd would have the best chances of success in this scenario, simply as neither went for the whole bluster "Oncoming Storm! Fear me!" approach. They'd be a new face that had a really useful habit of offering really damn good advice at just the right moment and have some really fascinating insights about technology.

Question - if growing a lot of trees can protect a planet from solar flares, can it protect it from a Death Star blast? >_> (yeah, I'm going to hell for that one).

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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby PREDATOR490 » 2017-01-23 12:47am

The Doctor is consistently shown as being inquisitive to the point he gets himself in trouble and reckless in approaching situations.

I see no reason why the rebels on a clandestine mission are going to be telling the unknown stranger Doctor anything. I doubt even the 4th Doctor would have the charisma required to pull that trick off or that he would even be focused on doing so. The Doctor's aversion to fighting and those that fight only makes it less likely an interaction is going to go well.

The more logical outcome: The Doctor sees the Star Destroyer, notices the Stormtroopers and oppressive vibe going on and deliberately starts poking his nose into the situation. My opinion of the Doctor is low enough that I would not be surprised if he directly antagonised a group of Stormtroopers and he gets shot and / or arrested. By the time the Doctor figures out the situation the Jedha is already on course for being blasted.

IF he manages to get into the TARDIS and escapes that destruction: The Doctor's only course left is pursuing the Death Star
Technologically, the Doctor has the means to wreck the Death Star on a whim but his grandstanding methods will get him killed without the typical plot shields he enjoys.

At his most obnoxious, the Doctor will board the Death Star and allow himself to be brought before Tarkin so he can trade worthless dialogue.

Is Tarkin the kind of person that would have the Doctor shot on the spot without hesitation ?
- I would think so

Is the Doctor really going to start blurting out things about the Timelords, being from another universe and time travel to Tarkin ?
- I expect he would and Tarkin may be intrigued to spare his life

Is blurting out that kind of information going to end well for the Doctor ?
- No, the Doctor is going to be getting alone time with interrogation droids until he dies or Tarkin calls for Vader to handle it personally.

Is the Doctor going to survive an encounter with Vader ?
- I seriously doubt this

Is the Doctor going to survive an encounter with Palpatine ?
- This is even less likely


At the Doctor's more "cautious" nature: The Doctor ditches the Death Star and follows Director whateverhisnameis to Mustafar for a chat with Vader

Any interaction between the Doctor and Vader / Palpatine boils down to how the Force works. If the Force magically allows them to detect the Doctor then he is in for a really bad day.

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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby bilateralrope » 2017-01-23 02:36am

PREDATOR490 wrote:Is the Doctor really going to start blurting out things about the Timelords, being from another universe and time travel to Tarkin ?
- I expect he would and Tarkin may be intrigued to spare his life


Even if he doesn't believe anything the Doctor says, a medical scan is going to raise questions that Tarkin would want answers to. Unless SW already has a species with two hearts that looks human.

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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby FaxModem1 » 2017-01-23 02:40am

bilateralrope wrote:
PREDATOR490 wrote:Is the Doctor really going to start blurting out things about the Timelords, being from another universe and time travel to Tarkin ?
- I expect he would and Tarkin may be intrigued to spare his life


Even if he doesn't believe anything the Doctor says, a medical scan is going to raise questions that Tarkin would want answers to. Unless SW already has a species with two hearts that looks human.


I'm sure Tarkin would enjoy receiving the dissection report of the Doctor. And in this scenario, there's no rampaging Dalek to make Tarkin want to release the Doctor for advice.
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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby bilateralrope » 2017-01-23 03:02am

FaxModem1 wrote:
bilateralrope wrote:
PREDATOR490 wrote:Is the Doctor really going to start blurting out things about the Timelords, being from another universe and time travel to Tarkin ?
- I expect he would and Tarkin may be intrigued to spare his life


Even if he doesn't believe anything the Doctor says, a medical scan is going to raise questions that Tarkin would want answers to. Unless SW already has a species with two hearts that looks human.


I'm sure Tarkin would enjoy receiving the dissection report of the Doctor. And in this scenario, there's no rampaging Dalek to make Tarkin want to release the Doctor for advice.


Dissection wouldn't help the Empire figure out where this new species came from.

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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby NecronLord » 2017-01-23 06:09am

PREDATOR490 wrote:The TARDIS translates languages for the Doctor. Those translations only happen because the TARDIS knows the languages.
I think it's some sort of telepathic field. It works on horses, non-sapient alien animals and babies*, in some episodes, creatures without a complex language, I'm pretty sure it's meant to scan the minds of beings in the local area.

As mentioned it's worked before on places where even the time lords have never gone - the end of the Universe for instance.


* One of the things that Marnal repairs in The Gallifrey Chronicles novel, when he takes the TARDIS from the eighth doctor is the 'Animal-Language Translation Circuits' which do indeed seem to work for later doctors.
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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby NecronLord » 2017-01-23 06:14am

PREDATOR490 wrote:Is Tarkin the kind of person that would have the Doctor shot on the spot without hesitation ?
- I would think so


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He offed Aresko and Grint pretty quick, but everyone else he's ever captured has been consigned to rot in a cell for a while.
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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-23 06:52am

PREDATOR490 wrote:The Doctor is consistently shown as being inquisitive to the point he gets himself in trouble and reckless in approaching situations.


Of course. :wink:

I see no reason why the rebels on a clandestine mission are going to be telling the unknown stranger Doctor anything. I doubt even the 4th Doctor would have the charisma required to pull that trick off or that he would even be focused on doing so. The Doctor's aversion to fighting and those that fight only makes it less likely an interaction is going to go well.


The Doctor's views on fighting, and people who fight, vary wildly by incarnation and even within the same incarnation. The Twelfth Doctor has worked effectively with UNIT, for example.

Seriously, people are playing up a trait that occasionally appears and treating it as if its the basis of the entire character.

And honestly, some of Rogue One were pretty much just "strange people with mysterious knowledge they picked up on Jedha". Namely the Force-worshiping guy with the staff and his buddy. The Doctor is also good at getting people to spill their guts to him, and the only members of the group who have any real loyalty to the Alliance at this point are Cassian and his droid.

The more logical outcome: The Doctor sees the Star Destroyer, notices the Stormtroopers and oppressive vibe going on and deliberately starts poking his nose into the situation. My opinion of the Doctor is low enough that I would not be surprised if he directly antagonised a group of Stormtroopers and he gets shot and / or arrested. By the time the Doctor figures out the situation the Jedha is already on course for being blasted.


Seriously, why do you hate the Doctor so much?

If its because of Moffat bullshit... well, I sympathize, to a point, but again, 12 has gotten a lot better, or at least a lot less dickish, since his first season. And you also seem to be treating negative aspects of Moffat's tenure as typical of the character/show throughout the entire run.

In any case, of course the Doctor will investigate, but I doubt that he would directly provoke stormtroopers without some idea of how to escape the situation.

And let's be honest- stormtroopers, with the possible exception of the 501st. Legion, have never been portrayed as terribly competent.

IF he manages to get into the TARDIS and escapes that destruction: The Doctor's only course left is pursuing the Death Star
Technologically, the Doctor has the means to wreck the Death Star on a whim but his grandstanding methods will get him killed without the typical plot shields he enjoys.


Again, I think their's a very good chance the Empire would want him alive.

Would be funny if he ends up a prisoner on the Death Star with Leia. Though unless they were somehow aware of him, the Falcon crew would have no reason to try to save him, meaning he might blow up with the Death Star at Yavin.

At his most obnoxious, the Doctor will board the Death Star and allow himself to be brought before Tarkin so he can trade worthless dialogue.

Is Tarkin the kind of person that would have the Doctor shot on the spot without hesitation ?
- I would think so


See above.

To be blunt, you seem not to be arguing from the characters' established personalities or motives- more like this is basically just your personal anti-Who hate-fic.

Is the Doctor really going to start blurting out things about the Timelords, being from another universe and time travel to Tarkin ?
- I expect he would and Tarkin may be intrigued to spare his life

Is blurting out that kind of information going to end well for the Doctor ?
- No, the Doctor is going to be getting alone time with interrogation droids until he dies or Tarkin calls for Vader to handle it personally.


Probably, yeah, more or less. Except that its going to take a long time to get all the valuable information the Doctor has, the Doctor has stood up very well to torture before, and he can probably drag things out and string them along for a long time. Barring a Dark Sider just ripping the information from his brain, but as I recall, the Doctor is a psychic too, to a degree.

Is the Doctor going to survive an encounter with Vader ?
- I seriously doubt this

Is the Doctor going to survive an encounter with Palpatine ?
- This is even less likely


I think he'd actually be worse off facing Vader, potentially.

Palpatine is more powerful, yes. But Palpatine also likes to, as you put it, grandstand. Whereas its long seemed to me that Vader was much more methodical, cold, and self-disciplined than the typical Dark Sider, very seldom losing control of his emotions. I figure that he basically had the cockiness literally burned out of him on Mustafar, and the lesson stuck.

Palatine would far more likely want to toy with the Doctor and gloat, whereas if Vader decides to kill you, he'll do what he has to to get the job done, and if he talks, it'll likely be a deliberate ploy to intimidate or manipulate you.

At the Doctor's more "cautious" nature: The Doctor ditches the Death Star and follows Director whateverhisnameis to Mustafar for a chat with Vader


Does the Doctor usually seek out the arch villain for conversation, as opposed to just happening to get caught or end up in a confrontation?

And my sense is that when he talks, its usually to stall or obfuscate or negotiate, as opposed to for its own sake. Not that he doesn't enjoy making speeches, but their's often a tactical purpose to one, too, beneath the showboating.

Any interaction between the Doctor and Vader / Palpatine boils down to how the Force works. If the Force magically allows them to detect the Doctor then he is in for a really bad day.


As I said, the only thing that could plausibly stop the Doctor with the TARDIS at Scarif would be a Dark Side Force user sensing him and being in position to stop him.

As above, Vader would probably be the worst possible outcome for him in terms of odds of survival.
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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby Parallax » 2017-01-23 07:50am

I would be interested to see what effect The Sonic(tm) would have on Vader's various systems. Could The Sonic(tm) short out a lightsaber?

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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-23 08:12am

Probably, but that entails Vader either not recognizing it as a weapon or being stupid/overconfident enough to let the Doctor take a shot at him with an unknown weapon. Admittedly that is possible, with Force precognition being spotty, the technology unfamiliar, and Vader a man who can usually block energy weapons with his hands.

Also, it probably wouldn't be an instant kill, even if it fucked with his suite (and even if the Doctor were willing to go to such an extremity). Which means time for a telekinetic reprisal. In which case, depending on what sort of telekinetic attack he hits the Doctor with, the result might be a dead Vader and a regenerated Doctor.
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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-23 08:14am

Though that raises an interesting question- could Vader block the screwdriver's effects with the Force? Its unfamiliar, but he can stop blaster bolts with the Force.
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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby Parallax » 2017-01-23 05:30pm

I'm actually forced to wonder now if Force precognition would work on the Doctor? He's an incredibly complex spacetime event, a walking paradox in a lot of ways.

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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby The Romulan Republic » 2017-01-23 06:14pm

Is their any precedent at all for time travel in Star Wars? Besides the obvious use of the Force to see possible future events?

Its an interesting point- I would guess that the Doctor could probably be sensed, as could the actions he was undertaking at the moment, but would it be possible to see the future of someone who can casually alter time?

Maybe only fixed points in the Doctor's life could be sensed with any degree of accuracy?

Edit: Although, in truth, this is an old problem for Force sensitivity.

"Always in motion is the future."-Yoda.

Force precognition is spotty in its reliability at best. As aptly demonstrated when a whole bunch of Jedi got shot in the back by their own men, and again when Palpatine went hurtling down a reactor shaft at the hands of his own enforcer (the Force/destiny does seem to have a sense of symmetry, or at least dramatic irony, in Star Wars, now that I think about it :D ).
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Re: The Doctor on Jedha (Rogue One spoilers).

Postby Tribble » 2017-01-23 08:38pm

The Doctor's sudden appearance could make a big "splash" force wise, as it's not every day a being which could single-handily overthrow the Empire and/or re-write the entire Star Wars galaxy's history pops up.
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