Fighting over the Star Trek Galaxy

[Renewed_Valour1]

The Empire and Systems Commonwealth both discover a single wormhole leading from their territory into the Star Trek Galaxy. The Commonwealth's wormhole ends near the Klingon-Federation border while the Imperial wormhole ends in the Delta Quadrant near Kazon space. Both the SC and GE start to send scouts out into the galaxy and encounter each other along with the local powers. These encounters stop short of causing an all out war but create tensions and cause some skirmishes. Both have the impression despite having very little intelligence on the other that they are fairly large and a potential opponent.

The Emperor rules that the galaxy is ripe for invasion and should be invaded before the Commonwealth has much time to intercede. The Commonwealth meanwhile decides that this galaxy is crucial to their defenses and an important buffer against the Empire. Both decide it would be the perfect beachhead to launch a large scale invasion of the other from. The Empire and Commonwealth start to build alliance while prepping fleets and moving forces into the Star Trek Galaxy.

What happens?

[His Divine Shadow]

The Empire has more resources than the CW to begin with so they start with that advantage, the CW has faster FTL drives.

The Empire will probably establish a beachead, send in lots of forces, inclduing a Galaxy Gun.
Then world devastators.

And in it's home galaxy a massive recruiting and construction program, then it would seek out the races surrounded by the Borg, and offer them protection if they join the, if they don't the world devastators turn their planets to fleets and bases, then the Romulan Empire's small neigbors(whom I hear it likes to opress) and then it would conquer them getting a beachead in the AQ.

They'll be expanding as fast as they can essentially and they wont hesitate to use their larger industrial base and lack of scruples.

[Morat]

If the Commonwealth hears about those World Devastators, you can bet they'll get attacked in short order. Considering that the WD's are basically weapons of mass destruction being turned against inhabited planets, I don't doubt that the Commonwealth would hit them with planet-killer bombs if they had to.

[Mr Bean]

The question is would they let them hear about it

Its a real biggy about how soon the sides find out about each other

In this case its going to be a Big War or Intellgance, he who knows what the other side is doing shall win

[Morat]

The question is would they let them hear about it

How could they possibly prevent it? Obviously, inhabitants of planets being destroyed or threatened are going to send out messages through subspace.

[Mr Bean]

Umm you need a network to send them these messages
The parts of that network are undefended
And whats to prevent the Star Destroyers from simply/jamming them(If possible) or just destroying the rellay links

OR
Doing it on uninhaited worlds only?

[Renewed_Valour1]

Doing it on uninhaited worlds only?

Of course this is where have light speed sensors on your vessels become an advantage. If a Commonwealth slipscout discovers a planet that has been destroyed all they have to do is slipstream out approximately the amount of time ago in light days to when that planet was destroyed. Then they can sit back and watch that planet be destroyed.

I don't expect either the High Guard or Imperial Navy could operate long in the galaxy without tipping the other off. One would imagine that over 1 km long starships disappearing into an unknown FTL medium would draw some attention to itself if any of the locals happened to see it. The scouts on both sides will be covering a lot of distance fairly quickly and I suspect one of the first things the High Guard will do is pick up FTL sensors from the locals.

Maybe three weeks to a month before their scouts find each other?

[Mr Bean]

I'm thinking acutal 6-8 Weeks is more likley, Or possibly one week depending on if either side accidently runs into a neutral third party who runs around screaming for all the Galaxy to hear

[Crayz9000]

If the Commonwealth hears about those World Devastators, you can bet they'll get attacked in short order. Considering that the WD's are basically weapons of mass destruction being turned against inhabited planets, I don't doubt that the Commonwealth would hit them with planet-killer bombs if they had to.

Talk of overkill. They're just trying to kill the World Devestators, which are slowly eating planets, and instead they just break up the planet. That's like using a baseball bat to kill a gnat on your nose.

[His Divine Shadow]

If the Commonwealth hears about those World Devastators, you can bet they'll get attacked in short order. Considering that the WD's are basically weapons of mass destruction being turned against inhabited planets, I don't doubt that the Commonwealth would hit them with planet-killer bombs if they had to.

The problem with that is that they are going to have escorts.
And if the CW begins to attack systems that they have no bussiness of interfering with, then the Galaxy Gun will be turned on them.

Wich is not possible to attack unless the CW is prepared to send a stupidly large fleet there.

Ofcourse in the home galaxy industry is climbing up to it's fullest, and imperators and Sovereigns will be rollin of the "assembly lines" and the Emperor will bring out his clone tanks and thats bad news.

[Morat]

Talk of overkill.

Well, obviously they wouldn't use an entire Maxim Charge. An ALS-4 would certainly be enough, and there are probably charges much, much smaller than that available that could also KO a world devastator in one hit.

I'm just pointing out that the Commonwealth would have no trouble gathering sufficient firepower to destroy even the most heavily shielded Imperial targets if the priority of said target is high enough (and a World Devastator or a Galaxy Gun would certainly be considered a rather significant target).

The problem with that is that they are going to have escorts.
And if the CW begins to attack systems that they have no bussiness of interfering with, then the Galaxy Gun will be turned on them.

Wich is not possible to attack unless the CW is prepared to send a stupidly large fleet there.

Hit and run.

Just jump in a huge number of ships all over the system, and some of those ships will arrive close enough to the target to destroy it before the Imperial escorts can react. The fleet would probably only need a few seconds to pull off the entire operation.

[His Divine Shadow]

Hit and run.

With SW sensor tech, such a thing is non-existent.

Just jump in a huge number of ships all over the system, and some of those ships will arrive close enough to the target to destroy it before the Imperial escorts can react. The fleet would probably only need a few seconds to pull off the entire operation

CW fleet's jump in ranges measured in light minutes or so from what I have seen, the imperials will see this at once, the WD will hyperjump away, the rest of the ISD's will microjump(atleast ten or so) so the fleet is between them at a range of 5 lightseconds, these seconds will be used to target each ship with their vastly more powerfull weapons(HTL's could probably destroy a XMC in one shot) and totally take the CW by suprise, they could rack up to 32-320 kills in the first volley, they could use flakbursts too and saturate the fleet formation.

[Renewed_Valour1]

With SW sensor tech, such a thing is non-existent.

Which is useless to detect a vessel that is in slipstream. The Empire is about to be reintroduced to the concept of a surprise attack. A good slipstream pilot seems to be capable of placing their ship within a few light seconds to a light minute of the target they want to hit. That would place them well within weapons range of the WD.

the rest of the ISD's will microjump(atleast ten or so) so the fleet is between them at a range of 5 lightseconds.

At 5 light seconds away turbolasers are going to be nearly useless to hit a vessel as maneuverable as a GHC. Furthermore it takes awhile to calculate a microjump. By the time the ISDs come around on the correct heading and then calculate the jump the High Guard vessel won't be anywhere near where it was when they started. High Guard warships are just both too maneuverable and operate at high enough combat speeds that microjumps aren't an eaxtly useful tactic.

they could use flakbursts too and saturate the fleet formation.

Which are deflected away by the AG fields… I also suspect that along with FTL sensors it won't take the Commonwealth too long to acquire shields.

[SCVN 2812]

The Empire is stuck doing an island hopping campaign because they have no maps of the ST universe and thus cannot use hyperspace to cross vast distances right away, only to the edge of their sensors The Kazon, well the Kazon are backwater by Trek standards even and their territory is limited and it's likely they haven't done much exploring past their borders due to the constant infighting amongst the various tribes which would prevent major expeditions into unexplored space. Slipstream has somewhat of a similar problem, it really helps to know where you're exiting out of slipstream since you could exit in the middle of a star or blackhole just like hyperdrive. However, the Federation has a lot more data on galatic cartography to provide the Commonwealth with giving them an immediate advantage. Information is EVERYTHING in warfare and the Federation's shield technology would greatly help the Commonwealth by augmenting their armor, which while on large ships like the GHC is very tough, smaller ships like the Nietzchean destroyer can be severely by as little as 20 megatons to the right point on the hull. Ablative hull armor would also help the Commonwealth. An alliance with the UFP and it's allies, the Federation at least would be quick to sign on to the Commonwealth as it means gaining access to advanced technology like slipstream and protection, not to mention they maintain their sovereignty while being a part of an organization with likeminded ideals. The RSE, Klingon Empire, and Cardassian Union would ally with the Commonwealth for survival and advanced technology. Thus the Empire, when it actually arrives in the Alpha-Beta quadrants after months or years of tedious hyperspace micro-jumping and re-jumping is faced with a significant alliance who's main goal is to prevent the Empire from conquering them.

[His Divine Shadow]

Which is useless to detect a vessel that is in slipstream. The Empire is about to be reintroduced to the concept of a surprise attack. A good slipstream pilot seems to be capable of placing their ship within a few light seconds to a light minute of the target they want to hit. That would place them well within weapons range of the WD.

And the imps still have superior sensor range because they got realspace range too, I have never, ever talked about detecting ships in slipstream so thats out of the question.
The World Devastators took on ISD's, that means you'd better have a shitload of ships and missiles.

At 5 light seconds away turbolasers are going to be nearly useless to hit a vessel as maneuverable as a GHC.

The glorius heritage class isn't eaxctly going to know about the ships since it's going to be atleast a few precious seconds away.
And why are they useless? HTL accuracy lies at 100%, there is no reason nor implication that they are unrelaible, infact they are made for long range attacks

Furthermore it takes awhile to calculate a microjump.

Not nearly long enough I'd say for the GHC to get a good enough sensor lock on the WD, and then WD's are powerfull bastards too, with their black hole furnaces they could suck in missile attacks, fighters, entire GHC's, and their shields are more powerfull than ISD shields.
I'm ofcourse talking about a mature WD, wich it will be since that will be dealt with before they are sent on missions.

By the time the ISDs come around on the correct heading and then calculate the jump the High Guard vessel won't be anywhere near where it was when they started. High Guard warships are just both too maneuverable and operate at high enough combat speeds that microjumps aren't an eaxtly useful tactic.

I'm afraid that with their FTL realtime sensors they can extrapolate based on their headings.

Which are deflected away by the AG fields… I also suspect that along with FTL sensors it won't take the Commonwealth too long to acquire shields

So your going to argue tech sharing now? Thats the problem with these debates, hence why I prefer the two to stand on their own two feet, well then the imperials will probably be getting cloaks, warp and subspace technology that allows them to encapsulate their TL's in subspace fields, like phasers do when they fire FTL, removing the range advantage.

How are they going to repulse that kind of energy, why don't they use it against missiles then?
The shields aviable in the ST galaxy aren't going to do much anyway.

[His Divine Shadow]

SCVN 2812, wrong, the imperials got FTL sensors and after only a few jumps they can calculate a good enough parallax to flood the milky way with billions of probe droids, in a week they'd have the galaxy completely mapped, just like in AOTC where they got every last star mapped.

Plus they have real time FTL telescopes that reach thousands of lightyears.
It won't take long at all for them to map the galaxy.

[Shadow]

SCVN 2812, wrong, the imperials got FTL sensors and after only a few jumps they can calculate a good enough parallax to flood the milky way with billions of probe droids, in a week they'd have the galaxy completely mapped, just like in AOTC where they got every last star mapped.

Plus they have real time FTL telescopes that reach thousands of lightyears.
It won't take long at all for them to map the galaxy.

What about hyperpsace lanes? How is the Empire going to find these?

[Renewed_Valour1]

And why are they useless? HTL accuracy lies at 100%, there is no reason nor implication that they are unrelaible, infact they are made for long range attacks

Against relatively unmaneuverable ISDs when compared to a GHC or any High Guard vessel. At a range of 5 light seconds even if we go with turbolasers moving at c you still have 5 seconds of transit time. At 40 PSL a vessel can cover a distance of 120,000 km a second. In 5 seconds she's 2 light seconds away from where she was when the turbolasers were when they happened to be fired. Think about the size of the area of space that the ship can be in since she's been making random course and speed changes. Your chances of achieving even a near miss are next to nothing.

WD's are powerfull bastards too, with their black hole furnaces they could suck in missile attacks, fighters, entire GHC's,

You know just about the perfect thing to swallow a nova bomb mounted on a missile. Or for that matter if someone ejected one of their slipcores at it and detonated it nearby.

I'm afraid that with their FTL realtime sensors they can extrapolate based on their headings.

Uhm yeah right. Take a second and play the numbers game. It takes how long from start to finish to calculate a jump?

How are they going to repulse that kind of energy, why don't they use it against missiles then?

The missiles are powered by constant thrust whereas turbolaser bolts aren't. Try picturing attempting to stop a car that is coasting along at a steady speed of 5 mph. Now try picturing trying to stop the same car when the engine is attempting to keep it on track and a steady 5 mph. That makes me wonder just how much momentum a turbolaser bolt has.

Anyway a flak burst is only going to be a fraction of the energy of a normal turbolaser bolt.

subspace technology that allows them to encapsulate their TL's in subspace fields, like phasers do when they fire FTL, removing the range advantage.

Which we have never once seen used when a vessel isn't moving at warp

[His Divine Shadow]

What about hyperpsace lanes? How is the Empire going to find these?

Are not required, hyperspace lanes are just routes that are known to be safe so ships can travel at high speed along them.

[His Divine Shadow]

Against relatively unmaneuverable ISDs when compared to a GHC or any High Guard vessel. At a range of 5 light seconds even if we go with turbolasers moving at c you still have 5 seconds of transit time. At 40 PSL a vessel can cover a distance of 120,000 km a second. In 5 seconds she's 2 light seconds away from where she was when the turbolasers were when they happened to be fired. Think about the size of the area of space that the ship can be in since she's been making random course and speed changes. Your chances of achieving even a near miss are next to nothing.

Nope, the ISD's will see them far ahead, they know their course they are coming in on, they'll know it when they jump back out, it's not like the GHC's will be dodging something thats not there.

Besides I dunno where you get this idea that turbolasers are inefficient or inaccurate weapons, they are designed for log range fighting you know, the movements they have to pull off are not big to keep up with the GHC, who they'll see in real time.
And even then the Imperials have their jammers, wich employ both STL and FTL jamming, if they could jam only STL means they would get a huge advantage.

You know just about the perfect thing to swallow a nova bomb mounted on a missile. Or for that matter if someone ejected one of their slipcores at it and detonated it nearby.

Oh nice, destroying the systems they are there to save?
Anyhow the gravity generated is a one way directional beam, it won't create a bang it'll create something akin to a gravitonic disruptor, wich could be bad for anything in the way of the WD, ofcourse we're not sure it works on artificial gravity, I know I am not.

And that too assumes the bomb will go off in time because before anything goes near the generator it's hacked, chopped vaporized and pulverized as it enters the WD, can a nova bomb thats reduced to it's consituent particles work?

Uhm yeah right. Take a second and play the numbers game. It takes how long from start to finish to calculate a jump?

I don't have to, because there is no specified time for microjump calculation, for the Falcon it was a matter of seconds to calculate a jump, 10 or so, during wich time the enemy
Getting away is just too easy for the WD unless the CW brings a 100 GHC's that jump out at one lightsecond with all guns a blazing, and they'll still have to fight the

The missiles are powered by constant thrust whereas turbolaser bolts aren't. Try picturing attempting to stop a car that is coasting along at a steady speed of 5 mph. Now try picturing trying to stop the same car when the engine is attempting to keep it on track and a steady 5 mph. That makes me wonder just how much momentum a turbolaser bolt has.

It has enough momentum to show a multi million ton ship visibly as it hits, from TESB we see that the TL has about 50MT worth of KE.
Laser cannons have gigaton range recoil too.

Anyway a flak burst is only going to be a fraction of the energy of a normal turbolaser bolt.

But is a fraction enough?

Which we have never once seen used when a vessel isn't moving at warp

Starbases are able to launch FTL torpedoes whilst being stationary, and AMRE technology is going to give the Empire the accelerative advantage by the way, their ion engines give alot more thrust per pound, but SW ships are so ridiculously massive.

[LMSx]

Mapping the Star Trek galaxy may not be as hard as believed.

If the GE finds two relatively close and populous systems, how difficult will it be to plot a course between the two?

Assuming that ST vessels go from point A to point B in a straight line and as quickly as possible, all an ISD needs to do is camp out of System A and intercept a civilian ship. 7 of 9's parents went out to the unexplored regions of space, so non-military ships have to have a navcomputer. If the ISD can interdict the ship and induce it to surrender, they could pull the info from the computer and take it onto the ship.....Where it would spread around the fleet.

If the surrender is quick enough, an Imperial Intel team devoted to researching the current political positions of the AQ governments could man the ship and take it into the system, where they can move on to the various Federation/Romulan/Klingon capital systems. I'm not familiar with the Systems Commonwealth, but unless they are 7 headed giant quadrapedal squids, the Intel team could create some acts of assasination or political uprising, and trace it back to the Commonwealth.

[Morat]

Oh nice, destroying the systems they are there to save?

I don't see why it would destroy the rest of the system if it only hit the WD's reactor.

Also, it doesn't have to get into the Devastator to affect it. Since a Nova Bomb can reverse or negate the gravity of an entire star, it must have a rather large volume of effect.

[His Divine Shadow]

I don't see why it would destroy the rest of the system if it only hit the WD's reactor.

I would never get to the reactor, nor the artifical black hole since everything that enters the WD is run through a force field that picks apart matter at it's constituent levels, i.e. a socalled elemental furnace.

Also, it doesn't have to get into the Devastator to affect it. Since a Nova Bomb can reverse or negate the gravity of an entire star, it must have a rather large volume of effect.

Assuming it would actually hurt the ship, the MF was within 1000km of a neutron star and suffered no ill effects.

[Renewed_Valour1]

Besides I dunno where you get this idea that turbolasers are inefficient or inaccurate weapons, they are designed for log range fighting you know, the movements they have to pull off are not big to keep up with the GHC, who they'll see in real time.

It's called math and simple probability

Again you seem to be missing the idea here that FTL sensors will only reduce the problem slightly. Even if you are tracking the GHC in real time you still have the simple fact that once launched turbolasers travel in a straight line. They don't adjust course to track a target. At your suggested range of 5 light seconds the ISD would have to try to guess where the GHC would be five seconds after they fire the turbolasers. At 40 PSL a GHC can cover a distance of 120,000 km a second. In five seconds she could have traveled 600,000 km from where she was. So even assuming the GHC flies in a straight line and takes the approach of changing her speed the ISD has a huge problem. They have a line 600,000 km long that the GHC can be anywhere on when the turbolaser bolt arrives. Now you seriously want to claim an ISD has enough tubolasers to saturate a line 600,000 km long with enough bolts to have anything more than a minute fraction of a chance of hitting a 1,301 km ship. If you toss in a few random course changes on the part of the GHC the task of hitting her gets even tougher.

If the surrender is quick enough, an Imperial Intel team devoted to researching the current political positions of the AQ governments could man the ship and take it into the system, where they can move on to the various Federation/Romulan/Klingon capital systems. I'm not familiar with the Systems Commonwealth, but unless they are 7 headed giant quadrapedal squids, the Intel team could create some acts of assasination or political uprising, and trace it back to the Commonwealth.

Of course they wouldn't manage to run rampant too long before they'd draw the attention of the Commonwealth's own intelligence operations. Argosy Special Operations would likely have fun turning the tables on the Imps and playing the same game.

I would never get to the reactor, nor the artifical black hole since everything that enters the WD is run through a force field that picks apart matter at it's constituent levels, i.e. a socalled elemental furnace.

As I have pointed out before gravity works through Star Wars shields. There's no reason the nova bomb can't be detonated before reaching there and still blow the blackhole apart.

[His Divine Shadow]

It's called math and simple probability

And there will be no problems since the GHC's won't be performing evasive maneuvers since they won't know anyone is there.

Again you seem to be missing the idea here that FTL sensors will only reduce the problem slightly. Even if you are tracking the GHC in real time you still have the simple fact that once launched turbolasers travel in a straight line. They don't adjust course to track a target. At your suggested range of 5 light seconds the ISD would have to try to guess where the GHC would be five seconds after they fire the turbolasers.

Thats not hard given SW computer tech and the fact that the GHC's won't be doing evasive actions and they could lay down about 4800-9600 different positions in a minute and unless the GHC's are doing wild evasive maneuvers I don't see what would be so hard, usually when we see the andromeda heading somwhere it's not in wild crazy maneuvers but a more straight path.

At 40 PSL a GHC can cover a distance of 120,000 km a second. In five seconds she could have traveled 600,000 km from where she was. So even assuming the GHC flies in a straight line and takes the approach of changing her speed the ISD has a huge problem. They have a line 600,000 km long that the GHC can be anywhere on when the turbolaser bolt arrives. Now you seriously want to claim an ISD has enough tubolasers to saturate a line 600,000 km long with enough bolts to have anything more than a minute fraction of a chance of hitting a 1,301 km ship. If you toss in a few random course changes on the part of the GHC the task of hitting her gets even tougher.

But there won't be any course changes just for that sake alone, they'll be heading towards their objective, there is no reason for them to turn wildly and crazy, they never did so before.

As I have pointed out before gravity works through Star Wars shields. There's no reason the nova bomb can't be detonated before reaching there and still blow the blackhole apart.

You pointed it out, I showed it was wrong already, they do protect against gravity, just not very efficently, but thats easily fixed by extending the interial compensators.

Nova bombs to my information have never exploded for some unknown reasons before they were supposed to hit their targets, and it wouldn't blow the gravity generator apart, it would reverse it's gravity from pull to push, turning into a gravitonic disrupter of sorts, that is assuming the bomb somehow knows it should explode before it actually reaches it's target.