Potential Doctor Who Shake up(Status Quo Remains)

[Crazedwraith]

Yep, that's exactly what made brilliant films like Star Trek Nemesis a success! Hiring people that don't know or care about the show.

[Khaat]

Indeed.

And instead of thinking outside the box, it sounds like the BBC wants to climb further inside and lock the door behind them.

But it's bigger on the inside!

Sorry, couldn't help myself!

[Crazedwraith]

I ran out of time on the edit. Some additional thoughts to the above.

Actually, going back to my comment about Steven Moffat acting like a typical fanfic writer with a budget, I'd like to see a head writer who wasn't a life long Who fan before taking over, or previously employed as a regular writer on Doctor Who.

The problem with a fan running the show is that a fan is likely to have a lot of baggage- potentially decades of preconceptions, pet ideas they're attached to regardless of weather they work, axes to grind, and nostalgia.

You don't need a fan to run the series. You need a professional writer who knows what works and what doesn't in television writing. Prior SF experience might be a bonus, but prior Who experience might actually be a liability.

Yep, that's exactly what made brilliant films like Star Trek Nemesis a success! Hiring people that don't know or care about the show.

To be fair it's not so much the problem you've identified that I diagree with so much as your solution. The idea of the showrunner is to blame IMO. Combination of production and head writing roles means less oversight and no-one to say 'no' when you're disappearing up your own arse. Consider Moffat's very well received episodes under RTD to the clusterfucks of overarching plots when he's show-runner.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yep, that's exactly what made brilliant films like Star Trek Nemesis a success! Hiring people that don't know or care about the show.

Depends on weather you hire someone professional enough to take the job seriously even if they weren't a fanboy.

[Parallax]

I recently rewatched a lot of the Matt Smith episodes and they worked much better being watched in quick succession as opposed to stretched out to one a week. There were some terrible stories there and a few scripts obviously needed to go back for some more work but, overall, it was pretty solid.
There was a noticeable nose dive in quality with the departure of Amy and Rory and the arrival of Clara. The dynamic just wasn't there anymore and too much time and effort went into trying to set Clara up to be Teh Awesomes.
I've rewatched a few of the early Capaldi episodes and, while Capaldi is a damn fine actor, the story quality is lacking. Kill The Moon? That was horrendeous.

But this is coming from someone who grew to detest the Tennant run, especially towards the end.

[Iroscato]

Yeah, thanks for reminding me about Kill The Moon, ya prick

[Parallax]

Don't worry, I could have done worse. I could have mentioned Love and Monsters, Fear Her or The Daleks Take Manhatten.
Or that one with the killer eye dust/snot.
Or grew lots of trees to save the planet from a solar flare or something.
>_>


Getting back on track... I do think that one of the strengths of the Matt Smith run was the Doctor/Amy/Rory dynamic. Reasonably ordinary people who ended up doing extraordinary things through strength of character. Guarding a box for 2000 years? Wonderful.
Whereas Clara (and let's face it, Coleman isn't a top class actor) was set up from the very beginning to be OMG WONDERFUL but never really did a lot to earn that commendation.

Some of the Capaldi stories have been great, but the quality has definitely dropped.

[NecronLord]

Yeah, that falls less under "female Doctor is a bad idea" and more under "God damn it, Moffat."

Moving to a moon colony isn't an inherently bad idea. But I'd sure as fuck want to know the infrastructure was sound there. I don't trust Moffat, or whoever they get in after, to implement such a major character arc with any grace.

Getting back on track... I do think that one of the strengths of the Matt Smith run was the Doctor/Amy/Rory dynamic. Reasonably ordinary people who ended up doing extraordinary things through strength of character. Guarding a box for 2000 years? Wonderful.

Yes. That. A thousand times that.

[The Romulan Republic]

Quite so.

I've been thinking it might be time for Moffat to leave pretty much since "Let's Kill Hitler", which was as bad as its title would lead you to believe.

[Parallax]

You take Rory, who doesn't wear the proverbial pants in his relationship and is portrayed as being a bit on the weak side. He dies multiple times. He goes through ordeals that would drive most people insane - finding out you're an auton? That'd so mess with your head. Waiting 2000 years with no social contact at all? How is he not a dribbling mess?

And Rory grows as a character. He gets stronger. He becomes better.

Then you end up with the same ever loving man. The one utterly devoted to his wife. But then you also have this Rory:



That's a character arc. That's reasonable and believable growth. That's narrative based entertainment.

[Link fixed ~ NL]

[Tribble]

Hmmm, was Rory literally right next to Pandora's Box 24/7 for 2,000+ years, or did he just stay in the area and keep an eye on it as history unfolded around him? It's not like the Pandora's Box was made of paper mache.

[Parallax]

It's stated that the Centurion was last sighted, if my recall of the episode is correct, as late as WWI.
I can't see him mixing with wider society terribly much if he's still sporting that guise.
Though, when the box is a museum exhibit, he's changed out of his armour in exchange for a museum security guard uniform.

[Darth Nostril]

As late as WWII in point of fact, the centurion was last sighted during an incendiary attack during the Blitz, dragging the Pandorica out of the burning museum.

The Doctor/Amy/Rory dynamic was excellent, hell we got to see Rory's dad. Ordinary people rising to the challenge and doing extraordinary things.

Clara? Didn't really gel with me, she was okay but I felt that her Impossible Girl story arc ended with the end of Smiths time as Doctor. She got him to save Gallifrey and resolve his survivors guilt, I would have been more than happy to see her leave at the beginning of Capaldi's run, her arc complete and unable to come to terms with this new guilt free, more mature Doctor.

Instead we got the Adventures of Clara with her companion the Doctor and his magic phonebox

I stopped watching because I couldn't stand seeing that talent vacuum wasting all the screen time.

[Parallax]

The Doctor/Amy/Rory dynamic was excellent, hell we got to see Rory's dad. Ordinary people rising to the challenge and doing extraordinary things.

Brian was an excellent character. So down to earth and humble, yet caring and full of his own brand of wisdom.
That shot where he's sitting in the TARDIS doorway, watching the planet below while slowly eating a sandwhich really was well done. His reply when asked if he wished to travel in the TARDIS ... "someone has to stay behind and water the plants".
The tragedy that he never saw Rory and Amy again when the Doctor promised he'd bring them back.

If there was an announcement that Brian would be a show regular, it'd be great.

[JLTucker]

Clara? Didn't really gel with me, she was okay but I felt that her Impossible Girl story arc ended with the end of Smiths time as Doctor. She got him to save Gallifrey and resolve his survivors guilt, I would have been more than happy to see her leave at the beginning of Capaldi's run, her arc complete and unable to come to terms with this new guilt free, more mature Doctor.

Instead we got the Adventures of Clara with her companion the Doctor and his magic phonebox

I stopped watching because I couldn't stand seeing that talent vacuum wasting all the screen time.

Series 8 was not great because of the Clara, Pink, and Doctor angle. It was amusing in places, but I was never sold on the relationship between Clara and Pink.

She gets better in series 9, in my opinion. The last three episodes of the series show a great relationship between her and the Doctor and the lengths he will go to for her. It's pretty fantastic. I'd say give it another chance.

[Iroscato]

When I said "They better bring back the Time Lords, I meant as a full presence in the universe, as they were in the old series. Hopefully Hell Bent was the last step in restoring them as such.

I'm still smarting over them turning the return of the Time Lords - an arc basically 10 years in the making - into even more Clara-wank, especially after it followed the masterpiece that was Heaven Sent.

[Tribble]

When I said "They better bring back the Time Lords, I meant as a full presence in the universe, as they were in the old series. Hopefully Hell Bent was the last step in restoring them as such.

I'm still smarting over them turning the return of the Time Lords - an arc basically 10 years in the making - into even more Clara-wank, especially after it followed the masterpiece that was Heaven Sent.

Ya, that should have been the biggest event in the Doctor's life since the end of the Time War. His one dream for the past thousand+ years had just come true - he could return home. You'd think he'd be interested in things like, oh I don't know, finding out if any of his friends and family are still alive? Stuff like that? Instead we get to see Clara transcend into the patron saint of Mary Sues (if she wasn't already one prior to this) and the Doctor immediately flying away because even though all he's wanted for the past thousand+ years is to return home, it doesn't mean he actually wants to spend any time there, don't be silly!

[The Romulan Republic]

More or less. I don't hate Clara overall, and I am starting to loath the term "Mary Sue", but Hell Bent failed because they tried to combine a second (redundant, so Moffat could once again have his cake and eat it too) goodbye for Clara into the return of Gallifrey story, and the time spent on one detracted from the other, and made what should have been the grand conclusion of more than a decade's work into little more than a half-episode. And to be fair, the parts of the episode that dealt with Gallifrey were mostly pretty good. Their just needed to be a little more of it, rather than such a quick reversion to the status quo of 'renegade Doctor runs away from Gallifrey" with a second story tacked on at the end.

While it probably would have been gratuitous, and certainly wasn't necessary, the return of Gallifrey in all honesty could have been an entire seasons' arc.

Edit: In fact, this speaks to a larger point: one thing Moffat, and a lot of film and television writers for that matter, simply don't seem to understand is good pacing. They don't use the time they have effectively.

[Tribble]

While I agree that that the term is overused I think in Clara's case it's justified:

She is the only known companion to have seen the Doctor as a child
She motivated the child Doctor into exploring outer space
She helped the Doctor choose his Tardis
All of the Doctor's previous adventures have been retconned into "the Doctor does something and Clara secretly saved him"
One version of her knew the Doctor's name (though that was forgotten, she's one of the few confirmed to have learned it)
She was responsible for getting the Doctor to retcon the entire Time War
With just a few words she convinced the Time Lords that the Doctor's name is not important (despite the fact that the entire point of the Time Lords sending the broadcast was to confirm they had reached the correct universe and it was safe to return)
She was responsible for convincing the Time Lords to give the Doctor his new regeneration set
The Doctor obsesses over her far more than any other companion
She died in an almost Jesus like manner, sacrificing herself for other's sins....
...And like Jesus was essentially resurrected and rendered immortal not long afterwards... (but unlike Jesus she got her her very own magical unicorn Tardis to play with.)
She was just too good to live in the mere confines of this show, imagine all the adventures she's must have gone on!

I mean I know Rose and River could come across as this, but... damn. Hell, even Wesley Crusher can't hold a candle to Clara.

Note that I liked Jenna Coleman and I think she did a good job considering the material given to her.

[jwl]

Translation: The "bring back Tennant" shipping obsessed whiners won.

-snip even more drivel-

That is an oddly specific accusation. You realise every other doctor and companians have shippers right and that lots of popular Doctors have had fans want them back. Why do you think multi-doctor stories are a thing?

Its not any set of fans winning anything. It is the BBC trying to get back to what worked.

Hartnell also worked though (second highest viewing figures in classic who), and he was pretty old. And Capaldi worked fine in series 8 if you adjust for iplayer and same-week repeats. It's only series 9 when viewing figures downturned, and that was arguably because of the time of broadcast rather than anything Capaldi himself did (another possible reason is all the double episodes, as with nuwho you usually get a ratings dip on the second episode, but again that has nothing to do with Capaldi either). The only real sense in which Tennant had a ratings advantage over series 8 Capaldi was when he was doing the "specials" series, but they had inflated viewing figures because they were specials.

I don''t like executive meddling in shows in general. If Chibnall wants to swap Capaldi for a "dashing male lead" that's up to him, but I don't like the idea of the BBC higher-ups making the decision.

Yep, that's exactly what made brilliant films like Star Trek Nemesis a success! Hiring people that don't know or care about the show.

Well, apart from the Tennant specials and perhaps season 17, the most successful point in doctor who's history in terms of ratings was the Hichcliffe era, and Philip Hinchcliffe was not a doctor who fan. So you could say it works with doctor who.

[Iroscato]

Capaldi has apparently been asked to stay on for series 11, but hasn't yet made his mind up.

http://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/doctor-w ... ind-up-yet

On mobile so quoting can fuck off, but I really hope he decides to stay on and we get at least one Moffat-less series of him.

[The Romulan Republic]

Indeed.

Though I love all the Doctors, I honestly think Capaldi edges them all out in terms of acting ability.

He's just awesome.

[Crazedwraith]

So wow; as predicted the initial article was bullshit.

Looks like the Tennant fans haven't won after all?!

[The Romulan Republic]

Not necessarily wrong. Could be "two conflicting sources of information"?

But I hope the new report is correct.

Not sure why you feel the need to take an obvious thinly-veiled cheap shot at me over it, in any case.

[Iroscato]

Indeed.

Though I love all the Doctors, I honestly think Capaldi edges them all out in terms of acting ability.

He's just awesome.

Same here. Ecclestone was my previous favourite though I loved Tennant and Smith for different reasons. Capaldi just takes the piss though