Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

ray245 wrote:How would you create an alien political organisation that takes into account of the species biology, as well as avoid turning them into generic stereotypes? Human history is filled with a wide variety of political models, ranging from a nomadic tribal system, democracy, monarchy, communism, dictatorship and etc. How would you create an alien species that reflects their own diversity, with differing opinions about how life should be?
Keep in mind, I tend to build my fictional universe and the species in it before I have a plot figured out. So my approach is in reverse from the way people usually write, which is to fit their aliens to the story they want to tell.

I start from first principles. I figure out what I want their planet to be like. Then I figure out their basic biochemistry (which in most cases will be carbon based but there are variations that can affect other things). Then I figure out what sorts of things might evolve on a given planet and how they might be adapted to live there. There will be a lot of convergent evolution, particularly in basic anatomy like encephalization (organisms will have their nervous system equivalent and sense organs at their top or front, depending on whether they are radially or bilaterally symmetrical), they will have organs that sense some part of the electromagnetic spectrum and that can detect volatile gases and aerosols, and will probably have mechanoreception of some sort (touch, hearing). And of course they will have to have some sort of manipulator appendage.

Right there you can start having fun with interesting perspectives. An alien might be blind to visible light, or only see visible light in monochrome, but see a kaleidoscope in polarized light, UV, or infared. To see longer wavelengths in actual images they will need HUGE retina equivalents. Instead of an eardrum, they might have sensory cilia that let them hear and detect minute air currents over their whole body similar to insects, but would not be able to parse airborne sound--relying instead on signalling with skin color changes, signalling with manipulator appendages, or beating some sort of biological stylus against some other part of their anatomy in a symbolic language contained in the pauses between pulses (like morse code, but without the cypher).

Any sapient species is probably going to be some sort of social problem solver. On earth there are a few options for that, so lets discuss them.

Social predators: Predators often have to solve problems and coordinate their actions, this puts a certain amount of selection on their intellect, not just for problem solving, but cheater-detection systems, complex social relationships, and cultural information transfer. These can blossom into full-blown sentience and have done so on earth at least once, probably twice, and possibly a few more times. Once in the lineage leading to humans, and another in the lineage to dolphins, and has either happened already or we are watching it happen in other ape lineages.

Bonus points if the environment they are in is prone to perturbations such that innovation and abstract thinking are required for survival--like the great rift valley and central africa in the last 10 million years.

Problem solving herding herbivores, long lived: Any herbivore that herds in family groups, and uses problem solving and long memories to survive in changing environments. Elephants come to mind. Living in family groups puts selection on social interactions, while problem solving and things like landscape mapping put selection on the capacity for abstract reasoning. This has the potential to go sapient.

Byproduct: Organisms with a brain with either heavy cognitive demands on it or that is just huge can possibly evolve sapience as an emergent phenomenon without there necessarily being selection for it directly. Certain african parrots dont actually need the abstract reasoning ability they have to survive as parrots, but they have it anyway because other things that are related (like navigating long-distances in three dimensions while micromanaging flight) gave them that as a byproduct. Something like that, that is also social could possibly evolve sapience under the right conditions.

But you will notice something. Sociality. Our intelligence (and the kind of intelligence that will be found in any alien) is not just abstract reasoning. It is the willingness and ability to navigate complex social relationships. This does not only mean self-awareness, but other-awareness. Second order theory (I know that they know X) of mind and higher (like third order: I know that they know that I know X). Third order theory of mind is necessary to detect if someone else is being deceived, and is thus essential for cheater-detection systems in social groups.

An animal with high abstract reasoning but virtually no social behavior outside of mating would be something like an octopus, and something like an octopus will never leave their home planet and go to the stars because they are incapable of the cooperation necessary.

Inside that you can vary all kinds of things. Family structures and mating systems will dictate a lot of their culture. Creatures that spawn in a massive scramble-competition orgy and then brood the eggs inside lungs or the stomach of the mother until they hatch into larvae that suckle from glands on their mother's back will have a somewhat different culture and social systems compared to humans, even though they have solved the same problem humans have (carrying offspring inside themselves for gestational thermoregulation, and dealing with large brain size by way of larvae that undergo a metamorphosis into sapience at the age of a year), they have done so in a very different way and unlike humans dont have much in the way of paternal certainty.

Or you could have something like eusocial insects (or for that matter naked mole rats), where large "extended" family groups consist of a single queen and her offspring (that to create something the size of a village might number in the hundreds over time) that are reared by workers (and all other social functions are handled by workers) who select (probably by diet and chemical signals) what talents will develop in the non-sapient larvae (And they will need to be larvae) when they metamorphose and thus regulate division of labor--without necessarily restricting occupations. For example, someone reared as a protector caste would be inclined to fill a number of different societal roles like police (to the extent needed, which would be low), military etc, while someone reared into an artisan caste might be inclined toward the sciences and medicine as much as metalwork. Such a society will likely be completely foreign because it would be a perfect communism (without the ideology). Nation states might form from long family lineages of related colonies within regions, and despite being territorial, their mass-dispersal or sexuals during mating season eventually mixed their lineages enough that Hamilton's Rule prevailed and they avoided nuclear holocaust.

If you notice a tendency toward larvae, that is a me thing.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by madd0ct0r »

Are Octopus's totally anti-social? I thought a number of cephalods, squids especially, had complex colour based communication?
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Simon_Jester »

They might have communication, but use it only for mating, and not cooperate in other ways.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

madd0ct0r wrote:Are Octopus's totally anti-social? I thought a number of cephalods, squids especially, had complex colour based communication?
They have courtship and territoriality signals, that is about it. They dont use it for cooperation, coordination, or information transfer other than "Mate with me", "Get off my lawn", and "I am a receptive female" and "I am totally a receptive female, trust me" (they have sneaker males).

The only exception are humboldt squid, but they dont cooperate, they are just gregarious enough to throw a feeding frenzy if a fisherman falls into the gulf of california at night.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by madd0ct0r »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
madd0ct0r wrote:Are Octopus's totally anti-social? I thought a number of cephalods, squids especially, had complex colour based communication?
They have courtship and territoriality signals, that is about it. They dont use it for cooperation, coordination, or information transfer other than "Mate with me", "Get off my lawn", and "I am a receptive female" and "I am totally a receptive female, trust me" (they have sneaker males).

The only exception are humboldt squid, but they dont cooperate, they are just gregarious enough to throw a feeding frenzy if a fisherman falls into the gulf of california at night.
I await with hope the discovery of the signal for "that octopus over there is totally a receptive female." :)

What about genuine hive minds, where the hive can be said to be intelligent and each drone within are no more intelligent then our own neurones?
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
User avatar
Zixinus
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6663
Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
Location: In Seth the Blitzspear
Contact:

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Zixinus »

What about genuine hive minds, where the hive can be said to be intelligent and each drone within are no more intelligent then our own neurones?
I'd say that the problem with those is that ,unlike human brains, each neuron is in a distant location and with its own bodies. A great deal of our brain is dedicated to perceiving our environment and coordinating our bodies.
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Simon_Jester »

madd0ct0r wrote:I await with hope the discovery of the signal for "that octopus over there is totally a receptive female." :)
That would appear to represent a level of communication and coordination that male octopuses are simply not capable of. Alternatively, a level of trolling they are equally incapable of, precisely because successful trolling requires you to take your instinctive skills for being helpful and coordinated and invert them.

The octopus, lacking such instincts, cannot troll.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

madd0ct0r wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
madd0ct0r wrote:Are Octopus's totally anti-social? I thought a number of cephalods, squids especially, had complex colour based communication?
They have courtship and territoriality signals, that is about it. They dont use it for cooperation, coordination, or information transfer other than "Mate with me", "Get off my lawn", and "I am a receptive female" and "I am totally a receptive female, trust me" (they have sneaker males).

The only exception are humboldt squid, but they dont cooperate, they are just gregarious enough to throw a feeding frenzy if a fisherman falls into the gulf of california at night.
I await with hope the discovery of the signal for "that octopus over there is totally a receptive female." :)

What about genuine hive minds, where the hive can be said to be intelligent and each drone within are no more intelligent then our own neurones?
That would be funny, but to actively troll and deceive that way requires higher order theory of mind. All a cuttlefish (which does the sneaker male thing, not the octopus as far as I know. Mea culpa) needs to be sneaker male is the ability to detect where they are on the proverbial totem pole, which triggers their brain to send the "wrong" signal to a rival male on one side while advertising his sexiness to a female on the other side.

As for hive minds...

Probably not. A multicellular organism cannot be controlled with the processing power of one neuron. Plus, unless they are clonal, Hamilton's Rule will prevent the sort of... ultimate altruism that is a hive mind. Evolution just does not produce that sort of thing without really really high relatedness coefficients. Our neurons are strictly speaking a hive mind, but they are clonal and as a result will rather happily perform things like apoptosis at the command of another cell if necessary.

Plus there is just no real way to communicate over distance that is fast and reliable enough to create a hive mind. Touch telepathy among intelligent beings I can see if they link up a physically connected neural-neural interface, and I could see something like that evolving out of chemical and electrical signaling in an alien species.

But a hive mind... no.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13073
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Elheru Aran »

A true hive-mind where the entire species acts like a brain? No, apart from some kind of telepathy, perhaps technologically enabled (think Bynars from TNG). But a hive, as in insectoid organisms evolving in a similar model to Terran insects? It could happen. I think it's possible that the insect-hive social model doesn't allow for complex enough relationships for a true sapience to form, though.

A possible alternative model would be that you have two subspecies of an insectoid race; one is complex and sapient, the other subspecies rank to them about as apes or monkeys do to humans but are greater in number and are intelligent enough to use as domesticated animals or troops. The ethical implications are there, of course...
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Elheru Aran wrote:A true hive-mind where the entire species acts like a brain? No, apart from some kind of telepathy, perhaps technologically enabled (think Bynars from TNG). But a hive, as in insectoid organisms evolving in a similar model to Terran insects? It could happen. I think it's possible that the insect-hive social model doesn't allow for complex enough relationships for a true sapience to form, though.

A possible alternative model would be that you have two subspecies of an insectoid race; one is complex and sapient, the other subspecies rank to them about as apes or monkeys do to humans but are greater in number and are intelligent enough to use as domesticated animals or troops. The ethical implications are there, of course...
Well the thing is our insects are not the only organisms that do the Eusocial Colony thing. We also have naked mole rats. All that is required for that is either a genetic system or environmental context where it is better to raise LOTS of siblings and send out a relative few to disperse and mate every now and again (low survival chance means you need lots of attempts, but if they succeed hey look! Investment paid off!) than it would be to attempt reproduction on your own.

It is not a common condition, but it has happened repeatedly on this planet. It also does not necessarily prevent sapience. It does not go anywhere with insects or naked mole rats because they are not pre-adapted for it. No brain power to speak of starting out, so any incremental change wont do much for them and they are physiologically limited anyway. That need not be the case on a low gravity, high O2 world that has three meter long insectoids or anything else.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by madd0ct0r »

There's definetly issues with lag, but at a very abstract level, a neuron takes chemical input from other units, decides wether to fire or not and then outputs a chemical signal to the other units. An ant takes in input from the enviroment, including chemical signals from other ants, decides wether to fire based on them and then outputs a behaviour and a chemical signal. The behaviour of the ant nest is emergent from the interaction at that level.

The simplest examples i can think of is the route finding, where the lag between ants and the decay rate of the trail chemical allows the simpe unit level rule, "follow the strongest trail and lay more trail if you are holding food" results in a rapid solution of route finding and resource allocation.

It is not the binary of neurone activity, its weird and fuzzy and runs on differential equations. Im not even sure how we could measure it. How smart is an ant nest taken as a whole? Smarter than a slug. Smarter than a mouse? Smarter than a beaver? Smarter than a corporation?

I wonder if an ant nest can be trained to do some novel behaviour on cue? Perhaps there is no memory function beyond the chemical lag.
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

There's definetly issues with lag, but at a very abstract level, a neuron takes chemical input from other units, decides wether to fire or not and then outputs a chemical signal to the other units. An ant takes in input from the enviroment, including chemical signals from other ants, decides wether to fire based on them and then outputs a behaviour and a chemical signal. The behaviour of the ant nest is emergent from the interaction at that level.
The problem is, you cannot abstract that out. There is a reason large organisms use large numbers of neurons. A single neuron simply does not have the processing power or data resolution (for lack of a better term). Take the visual system. It takes two neurons to recognize a line, different orientation means a different pattern of two neurons. More complicated patterns take different combinations of networked neurons to recognize and process. Saying nothing, of course, about the post-process flipping of the image from the retina.

The neurons deal with electro-chemical signals from other units, but cannot localize them once they are received because what they actually get is a chemical gradient diffusing into the cytoplasm across a very short distance. That is one reason why neurons are specialized and functions are localized to different parts of the brain.

A single ant has 250,000 neurons and a very simple brain.
It is not the binary of neurone activity, its weird and fuzzy and runs on differential equations. Im not even sure how we could measure it. How smart is an ant nest taken as a whole? Smarter than a slug. Smarter than a mouse? Smarter than a beaver? Smarter than a corporation?
That depends on the task you want them to perform. If you want them to find the most efficient path to some food, they can do that because they can iterate it a shitload of times. If you want them to plan for the future by imagining some future world-state, they cannot do so. At all.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Simon_Jester »

Basically, at some level there's a very fundamental difference between a single computing entity, and a massively parallel computing "entity" whose individual elements don't talk to each other very well.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by madd0ct0r »

I am so tempted to see if I can model a particle swarm with adaptive rules and try and teach it to return the next prime. Not sure my laptop is up for 100 billion swarming particles, and the solution would probably involve all the particles stopping and connecting to three others in a standard neural net... but you could possibly have partially complete rings in the swarms (like C shapes) moving around a circle a number of times with a beat swarm reporting if the C swarm ends up at the starter point or not (ie, does the number divide completely or leave a remainder?) Different decay rates for chemical trails could also do that with ants shuttling back and forth along a corridor created by ants working to a beat swarm. So the number 9 gets translated into a dead end corridor 9 seconds long, and two different pulses of ants, one that puts down dots of chem A with a gap of 2 seconds and one that puts down dots of Chem B with a gap of 3 seconds, would be sent into the corridor. The one with a gap of 2 would lay notes like this, starting at the start of the corridor A-A-A-A-A| and would be reflected, creating a strong stripy pattern. The Group B would get b--b--b--| then be reflected producing |b--b--b--. with the overlaid pattern being b-bb-bb-b| UGh. It's late here, but what I'm stumbling towards is the same idea as measuring the depth of a cavity be resonance frequency, and whether the ant leaving the cavity immediately marks a dot of chem or not on leaving sets whether the length can be divided exactly by that ant's frequency or not.
Beater ants are groups that move up and down inside a fixed length corridor to provide a clock for the others to calibrate against. Corridors are made of stationary ants and may be linear or circular. Forming the corridors is the next trick...
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Simon_Jester »

Calculating primes is a relatively straightforward task, which is why computers learned to do it early.

It's not a very good model of the kind of problem-solving an alien species would need to develop technology.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Simon_Jester wrote:Calculating primes is a relatively straightforward task, which is why computers learned to do it early.

It's not a very good model of the kind of problem-solving an alien species would need to develop technology.
For that, you need the computer to figure out general and special relativity (for example) from first principles.

Good luck.
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Simon_Jester »

That's a good illustration of the difference between 'programmable' and 'self-programming.' Calculating primes can be done by any machine that can be programmed, eventually. It just takes a while.

Figuring out the theory of relativity requires a thinking-engine that is capable of creatively editing its own rules, changing them speculatively to model a wide variety of data

It's not that you can't build a programmable machine capable of doing that- I'm sure "discover relativity" is Turing-computable. But the minimum size for a thinking device capable of discovering relativity is many orders of magnitude greater than the minimum size required to compute primes.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7700
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by FaxModem1 »

On the whole 'dumb race uplifted onto spaceships' cliche, the Kazon from Voyager were actually this, just not executed well. There was a race, the Trabe, who enslaved them, and engineered petty squabbles onto the Kazon until they were fighting each other over at all times allowing the Trabe to make them into a slave race(think classic European Colonialism on a interplanetary scale). Finally, one Kazon united all the clans, and they made the Trabe a refugee race, seeking a new homeworld.

The important thing about all this? When we meet the Kazon in Voyager, they have only been in space for 26 years. They are terrible at organizing each other, haven't evolved culturally as well as technologically, and any attempt to put new technology into their ships ends horribly(replicators and transporters both end horribly for the Kazon). It was only through Seska's influence, and her technical expertise, that the Kazon became anything resembling a threat to Voyager.

This was even commented on by the Borg, as the Kazon were the only race the Borg said, "No thanks, we don't want any."

So, one wonders if the Kazon will be able to hold onto their ships for another generation, or if they'll slowly become broken down wrecks that they'd need slaves to fix, or be destroyed by lack of maintenance.
Image
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Simon_Jester »

Well, from the sound of it the Kazon were both 'uplifted' and, for lack of a better term, pushed down, by the Trabe. Some of what the Trabe did to the Kazon made it actively less likely that the Kazon would be able to succeed as a starfaring species.

Another example of this is that this is one explanation for the Pakled, also from Star Trek- that they are somehow the lingering survivors of an event that left them in ships they did not design and don't fully understand, and were never really trained to operate. Hence "our ship does not go. Can you help us make it go?"

...

Although there are a couple of other Pakled origin stories I like.

One is, well. That they went down the route of 'appification' past a point of no return. We see today a trend toward making advanced technology easy to use, with touch-screen interfaces that replace a lot of words and detail with big friendly icons to do the things you're most likely to want them to do.

Extrapolate this trend far enough and it becomes a problem, because at some point the average member of your society ceases to perceive the need for complexity beyond the level of canned interfaces and "there's an app for that."

Eventually, the last generation of competent Pakled technologists strove to make their technology so easy to use that even a complete ignoramus could operate it. Unfortunately, this isn't sustainable. Some number of generations later, you have barely-literate Pakleds flying around in run-down ships that run on scientific principles they don't understand, trying to kidnap better-educated aliens to make essential repairs and upgrades. And the future of the galaxy is determined by the power-users who understand and tinker with their hardware, in order to improve upon it.

Obviously this is utterly noncanon and probably contradicts some canon somewhere, but I like it.

...

As more or less a complete opposite to this idea, in a variant on the 'survivors in starships' explanation, a Star Trek Online user-created mission comes up with an innovative explanation. They base things on the idea that the Pakled are so bad at sophisticated verbal communication because that is not their normal mode of speech; they're optimized for sign language and body posture. However, the Pakled we see are actually the descendants of a slave revolt (like the Kazon, only less militant and prone to squabbling) and they suffered so much cultural damage during their slavery that even their normal languages were largely suppressed.

As a result, today we see the Pakled acting like they're mentally deficient due to what are, in effect, disabilities they've lost the ability to compensate for. They no longer know sign languages, so they can't teach each other advanced science and technology. They barely know how to operate their own rickety old ships because they've been learning by apprenticeship and trial and error for generations, mostly by watching each other rather than by formally communicating concepts.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
User avatar
Zixinus
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6663
Joined: 2007-06-19 12:48pm
Location: In Seth the Blitzspear
Contact:

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Zixinus »

The "appification" explanation sounds like something a TV show writer would use: a critique about modern trends that the audience will understand, explains a lot and makes no real sense in-universe context.

Even with modern, "dumb-downed" user interfaces you still need to specify what you want and make decisions. The more advanced use you want the more it needs to allow you to do that. To "hide" advanced use you need to make the decisions that come with that either already to the user's behalf or have something make it for the user. In other words, something like an AI. Or, in modern case, the developers make those decisions and make appropriate compensations. Keep in mind that behind "appifications", there is a massive growth of programmers and other developers to make it all happen compared to command-line-only days (plus advances in technology that have resources to liberally spare to allow flashy user interfaces to happen in the first place, as well as all the technologies the apps run being very well-developed).
Which is fine when it's something like hard-setting the codecs and output modules for your media player for an average person that can't be bothered to know what those terms even mean. Not so much when piloting a starship: if you don't understand the principles of what's going on you will not understand the consequences of your actions, which will result in the starship being rendered non-functional by a stupid order. There is no question of if. Modern ships function a lot on auto-pilot but they still have captains that know the sea.

If the society is at the point that they need to steal engineers is a serious option, their civilization should be barely holding itself together to keep the city lights going, never mind a starship. You can automate a lot of things but intelligent decisions need to made. Which means either a person making them or an artificial intelligence of similar calibre handling them. If someone who is more involved in the field wishes to comment, I'd like to hear it.
Credo!
Chat with me on Skype if you want to talk about writing, ideas or if you want a test-reader! PM for address.
User avatar
madd0ct0r
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 6259
Joined: 2008-03-14 07:47am

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by madd0ct0r »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Calculating primes is a relatively straightforward task, which is why computers learned to do it early.

It's not a very good model of the kind of problem-solving an alien species would need to develop technology.
For that, you need the computer to figure out general and special relativity (for example) from first principles.

Good luck.

Guys, be fair, I was trying to come up with an arbitrary test of animal level cogitation for a swarm intelligence quite late at night. Primes seemed a nice hard edged problem that is easy for digital computers, but quite hard for most humans. Now you're asking for special relativity from first principles? How many humans manage that?
"Aid, trade, green technology and peace." - Hans Rosling.
"Welcome to SDN, where we can't see the forest because walking into trees repeatedly feels good, bro." - Mr Coffee
User avatar
Alyrium Denryle
Minister of Sin
Posts: 22224
Joined: 2002-07-11 08:34pm
Location: The Deep Desert
Contact:

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

madd0ct0r wrote:
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Calculating primes is a relatively straightforward task, which is why computers learned to do it early.

It's not a very good model of the kind of problem-solving an alien species would need to develop technology.
For that, you need the computer to figure out general and special relativity (for example) from first principles.

Good luck.

Guys, be fair, I was trying to come up with an arbitrary test of animal level cogitation for a swarm intelligence quite late at night. Primes seemed a nice hard edged problem that is easy for digital computers, but quite hard for most humans. Now you're asking for special relativity from first principles? How many humans manage that?
You are talking about a hive mind with individual dumb components arising from natural selection (not intelligent programming) becoming a technological being when combined. Figuring out relativity from first principles without programming telling them to do so seems like a good proof of concept. Much better than calculating primes. Hell, even calculating primes is not something an actual biological system of that makeup is going to have an easy time doing.

Hive intelligences are very very good at iterating problems (again, like pathfinding, or searching for food), not so good with abstracts. Even the hive intelligences we do have are much much smarter than a simple program. An ant is capable of learning and processing pretty complex information with its 200k neurons
GALE Force Biological Agent/
BOTM/Great Dolphin Conspiracy/
Entomology and Evolutionary Biology Subdirector:SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences


There is Grandeur in the View of Life; it fills me with a Deep Wonder, and Intense Cynicism.

Factio republicanum delenda est
Swindle1984
Jedi Master
Posts: 1049
Joined: 2008-03-23 02:46pm
Location: Texas

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Swindle1984 »

How's this for an alien species?

-First contact results in a ship coming out of nowhere, shooting up the human ship, and killing the crew via explosive decompression. The ship is stripped of the crew's bodies and a bunch of equipment, but things we would consider valuable (certain instruments/computers/ship components, gold jewelry, etc.) are left behind and for some reason the first mate's collection of Troll dolls was taken and other bizarre items (random articles of clothing, anything made of paper, all the straws in the ship's mess) are also taken

-Second contact has an identical ship broadcasting radio waves and making odd, unnecessary maneuvers; we don't know why they're making strange maneuvers, nor can we puzzle out what their radio transmissions are intended to be, since we can't translate them into sound or video, but we transmit back; eventually both parties decide they can't learn anything more and go their separate ways

We later discover the hostile first contact was by a group of pirates, while the second contact was a group of explorers. We trace the second ship back to their homeworld and discover the following:

1) The aliens are very curious about us, to the point that we are bombarded by so many radio transmissions from their planet, their various colonies, and ships that we don't know who to even respond to, nor can we make any sense of their transmissions still. Eventually, we're approached by a ship that makes direct contact, then later land a party near what seems to be their largest population center.

2) The aliens are dubbed "cuttlefish monkeys" because they have a calcified exoskeleton/shell protecting their vital organs, a beak-like mouth surrounded by feeder tentacles, five 'arms' arrayed like a starfish that humans think of as analogues to a monkey's arms, legs, and tail (hence the name) but all serve the same purpose, they breathe chlorine, and they're arboreal jungle dwellers from a world with low gravity and are roughly the size of a basketball.

3) The reason we couldn't interpret their radio transmissions and vice-versa, and why the second ship made odd maneuvers, is because their radios don't convert signals into video and/or audio, they convert into flashing colors and scents. They communicate by dancing like bees (hence the maneuvering), rapidly changing skin color like an octopus (faster than the human eye can detect the changing patterns), and exuding pheremones; they're all deaf, so sound has no meaning to them.

4) What we thought was an official envoy to greet us was just some random cuttlefish monkey who got brave enough to want to see the aliens in person. The government we thought we were making contact with turns out to be a random collection of civilians. What little contact we've made has been with... well, it would be like 4chan spamming a flying saucer that showed up in orbit. So far as we can tell, there IS no centralized government on this world; everyone just seems to pick a job and do it, without a higher authority giving them orders, whether that job is janitor, teacher, policeman, engineer, or space pirate. We have no idea how they decide who does what or how things operate without anything that looks like a recognizable system of authority to us.

5) Their cities prove to be utterly unnavigable by humans; they incorporate lots of trees, but the main structures seem to be pipes and rods tangled in such a mess that a human, even a child, couldn't squeeze between them. The cuttlefish monkeys live in little ball-like structures and apparently live solitary lives, going out each morning and traveling by swinging from rod to pipe to tree like stereotypical monkeys, or crawling along the ground and pulling themselves along by the same rods and pipes. The rods and pipes seem to double as infrastructure, housing electrical lines, their equivalent of water lines (and what do chlorine-breathers drink, anyway?), lighting, and more. Travel from one city to another involves flying in small, personal aircraft (no equivalent of airliners), or taking the long way by swinging through trees/crawling along the ground, with no ground vehicles in evidence.

So the only means of communication we share is visual, and neither of us speaks the other's language, and there doesn't seem to be any real cultural points in common that we've discovered so far.

Now what?
Your ad here.
Simon_Jester
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 30165
Joined: 2009-05-23 07:29pm

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Simon_Jester »

Well, you've kind of deliberately made things as difficult as possible, but it's at least interesting because they are credibly alien. Though there has to be some kind of mechanism that permits them to spontaneously self-organize so well, and it'd be curious to learn what it was.
This space dedicated to Vasily Arkhipov
Swindle1984
Jedi Master
Posts: 1049
Joined: 2008-03-23 02:46pm
Location: Texas

Re: Building a more "realistic" Sci-fi Universe with aliens

Post by Swindle1984 »

Simon_Jester wrote:Well, you've kind of deliberately made things as difficult as possible,
Because as we all know, a species that evolved on a completely different planet and developed a culture totally unrelated to any we're familiar with is easy to understand. :wink:
but it's at least interesting because they are credibly alien.
Which is the idea.
Though there has to be some kind of mechanism that permits them to spontaneously self-organize so well, and it'd be curious to learn what it was.
Precisely. That's what I loved about the original Rendezvous With Rama; it was so incredibly alien, but there was a reason behind everything, we just couldn't understand what it was. The closest anyone came to understanding the Ramans was while viewing their catalogue of objects, and someone commented that they couldn't see the relation between the objects; another person said maybe it was in alphabetical order and we couldn't understand the relation anymore than an alien would understand the relation between books and boots. Everything inside the Rama was incomprehensible, but there was a reason/explanation for everything that we just didn't have the context to understand.

Figuring out how these aliens work would be fascinating in and of itself, and could probably make the basis for a decent story.
Your ad here.
Post Reply