A group of Time Lords encounter a Cthulhu

[The Romulan Republic]

Which isn't such an issue for Time Lords. They pretty much work routinely with Things Man Was Not Meant To Know, don't they?

I'm rather reminded of the Doctor's speech from "Rings of Akhaten":

"Okay then. That's what I'll do. I will tell you a story.

Can you hear them? All these people who lived in terror of you, and your judgement. All these people whose ancestors devoted themselves, sacrificed themselves- to you. Can you hear them singing?

Oh you like to think you're a god. But you're not a god. You're just a parasite, eaten out with jealousy and envy and longing for the lives of others. You feed on them, on the memory of love and loss and birth and death and joy and sorrow, so... so... come on then. Take mine. Take my memories. But I hope you've got a big appetite. Because I've lived a long life, and I have seen... a few things.

I walked away from the Last Great Time War. I marked the passing of the Time Lords. I saw the birth of the universe and I watched as Time ran out. Moment by moment until nothing remained, no time! No space! Just me! I walked in universes where the laws of physics were devised by the mind of a mad man! And I have watched universes breath and creations burn! I have seen things you wouldn't believe! I have lost things you will never understand! And I know thing! Secrets that must never be told, knowledge that must never be spoken! Knowledge that will make parasite gods blaze! So come on then! Take it! Take it all, baby! Have it! You have it all!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoVLhUxhdSw

Of course, one might argue that the Doctor is mad, but it takes a lot to push a Time Lord completely off the deep end, at least if the Doctor is anything to go by.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah. Time Lords are much smarter and stronger-minded than any normal human, and have a capacity to take in the greatest and strangest marvels of the universe. They sometimes become insane for reasonable definitions of insane (Is the Master insane? Is Rassilon?) But they don't break, they don't become dysfunctional or start gibbering helplessly.

[NecronLord]

Well.

There's a whole asylum of Time Lords who actually are insane on Gallifrey, going by the comics.

[mr friendly guy]

I would consider the Master mad, albeit still highly functional.

[Simon_Jester]

Yeah. But he's mad by the standards of "you're a megalomaniac," not mad by the standards of "you're a helpless gibbering wreck," which is how random fanboys usually imagine Cthulhu insanity. The Master's madness is a creative insanity, a willingness to countenance things no one else would consider, to dare what others would not dare. And if anything makes him more dangerous than he would otherwise be.

If meeting Cthulhu drives a Time Lord mad, in the sense that the Master is mad, then that may make them more likely to destroy or cast down Cthulhu, simply because it makes them less likely to "live and let live."

[Parallax]

The Master, as a quick aside, also has a habit of summoning Great Old Monsters from Beyond to do his bidding; Be they Chronovores or Daemons. The Doctor has first hand experience with Eternals and Great Old Gods like Fenris - and the existence of both didn't even make him blink an eye.

Just for the sake of pattern keeping, even the Time Lords in their infancy were warring against Giant Space Vampires.

[Elheru Aran]

I suspect there's very little in all of space and time-- and probably most of the various corners of existence, reality, and the Universe-- that the Time Lords haven't run into at some point or other.

[Enigma]

As for the Doctor having issues flying the TARDIS, he can get it to fly smoothly as Capaldi's Doctor managed to do it. I don't think he wants to make the TARDIS work perfectly but I believe that if he really put his mind to it, he could on his own get the TARDIS to function properly(i.e. Donna mentioning that he could have easily repaired the Chameleon Circuit.). But he doesn't (well, only when the situation warrants it, like installing a firewall and shields) and won't as the TARDIS is as addled as he is. They make a perfect couple as it is, so why change it?

That's my two pesos.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Can Cthulu even be permanently killed? Sure they can dump him into a black hole and alive or dead is purely academic. But can he even die? That would affect how they deal with him if they want to permanently eliminate him.

[NecronLord]

It's also notable that he tries to get it to do complex things quite often, has taken it into combat, and is not necessarily qualified to maintain it - a technical staff exists on Gallifrey for a reason - and it's beyond its service life, and is unusually wilful.

For just flying it from place to place, the Secondary Control room also appeared in the classic series.



Which had several panels and the Doctor could fly it with only one. There's lots of factors in play and we see other time lords fly them around solo without issues quite frequently.

[NecronLord]

Can Cthulu even be permanently killed? Sure they can dump him into a black hole and alive or dead is purely academic. But can he even die? That would affect how they deal with him if they want to permanently eliminate him.

We actually know their preferred weapons for this sort of thing. There's an story in the classic series called Image of the Fendahl which has the trappings of lovecraftian horror subverted; a god being called the Fendahl served by human cultists and summoning monstrous beings to do its will.

The Doctor traces it back to its home-world and finds that the Time Lords have at some point locked the planet (originally a planet in the Sol system) into a time loop to dispose of it but missed this fragment - they missed it (sloppy!) or part of it however, leaving a single skull behind.

COLBY: Natural selection turned back on itself and a creature evolved which prospered by absorbing the energy wavelengths of life itself?
DOCTOR: Mmm.
COLBY: It ate life? All life, including that of its own kind?
DOCTOR: Yes. In other words, the Fendahl. And then the Time Lords decided to destroy the entire planet, and hid the fact from posterity. They're not supposed to do that sort of thing, you know.
[...]
COLBY: So when the Time Lords acted, it was too late. The Fendahl had already come here.
DOCTOR: Yes, probably taking in Mars on it's way through.
COLBY: Then it got itself buried, but not killed.
DOCTOR: The Fendahl is death. How do you kill death? No, what happened was this. The energy amassed by the Fendahl was stored in the skull and dissipated slowly as a biological transmutation field. Now, any appropriate lifeform that came within the field was altered so that it ultimately evolved into something suitable for the Fendahl to use.
COLBY: Are you saying that skull created man?
DOCTOR: No, I'm saying it may have affected his evolution.

(One of the Dr Who books elaborates on this and says that the Time Lords time-looped the Fendahl homeworld as an incidental move ina time war and it wasn't the target, as the explanation of how they missed; your mileage may vary - that one also establishes that Lovecraft exists in the Dr Who universe and most of what he wrote about was real - except the Elder Things, sadly, though some Time Lords do regenerate into thier forms)

The Doctor dumps this thing in the vicinity of a star about to go supernova.

In any case, their preferred weapon is the Time Loop, we see it used on a few other occasions by Time Lords including the Doctor. That's pretty much their standard operating procedure against enemies unable to travel in time and doubtless something they'd do here.

[Parallax]

I did forget to mention one thing. MOST Time Lords are monitor observing do-nothings BUT there is, of course, the CIA - The Celestial Intervention Agency. Pretty much Time Lord Secret Service who really aren't afraid of getting their hands dirty, especially if they can do it without anyone finding out.
Which they generally don't because they're time looped. Or erased from time. Or vanished in mysterious circumstances.

[Cykeisme]

I've always inferred that the core idea of Lovecraft's Old Ones is that they are beings who are so immense not just in terms of power, but in terms of importance, that they dwarf man, making him not just powerless but unimportant.

This is key, because it leaves Man, and in fact all the main characters in their stories, as ultimately, utterly irrelevant.
"Describing" the Old Ones based on what we can perceive (the physical beings, giant creatures, bright lights, the voices that start cults, whatever) are much like an ant believing that Mankind is the sole of a boot, as he strides uncaringly down a sidewalk.

They have always been described in less scientific terms, even by the terminology of the eras in which the various pieces of fiction were written, but the gist of it is that they exist outside and beyond our space and time, in places not just beyond our understanding, but beyond our ability to understand.
Those men that received fragments of the information that let them understand even a tiny facet of these beings' nature, end up going insane because of the mind's inability to comprehend.

I think it's a very human reaction to take a fictional entity of this particular nature, take a beloved friendly fictional character, and then say the friendly one would win, and would protect us, no problem.
So yeah, the Doctor takes it and wins. At least a tie. No analysis necessary.


Edit: Well, more in line with the way we do things here, I'd rule both universes (but especially the Lovecraftian mythos) to be so lacking in quantifiable descriptives that they're quite unsuitable for "versus" debates.

[NecronLord]

I think it's a very human reaction to take a fictional entity of this particular nature, take a beloved friendly fictional character, and then say the friendly one would win, and would protect us, no problem.
So yeah, the Doctor takes it and wins. At least a tie. No analysis necessary.

I'm... not sure you're recieving us there. An attack by the Time Lords on Earth would be bad.

The Doctor went on. 'And then there are my people. If I let them know you're here, not only will you never have existed, but probably neither will a large chunk of the population of San Francisco.' He looked at her with ever-so-sincere eyes. 'When it comes to dealing with the spawn of the Great Vampires, they like to err on the side of thoroughness.'

Harris looked thoughtful. 'These, I take it, are the Time Lords,' she said in perfect deadpan.

Time Lords, thought James. Oh boy.

The Doctor is near-unique in that he gives a shit about the survival of individuals. The abovementioned 'Time Loop the Planet' thing would not be good for anyone on Earth. At least some people are believed to survive the awakening of Cthulhu; at least by the cultists.

Then, whispered Castro, those first men formed the cult around tall idols which the Great Ones shewed them; idols brought in dim eras from dark stars. That cult would never die till the stars came right again, and the secret priests would take great Cthulhu from His tomb to revive His subjects and resume His rule of earth. The time would be easy to know, for then mankind would have become as the Great Old Ones; free and wild and beyond good and evil, with laws and morals thrown aside and all men shouting and killing and revelling in joy. Then the liberated Old Ones would teach them new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy themselves, and all the earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom. Meanwhile the cult, by appropriate rites, must keep alive the memory of those ancient ways and shadow forth the prophecy of their return.

I think I'd rather be shouting and killing and revelling in joy than just time looped. Your mileage may vary but neither of these is actually *good*.

As for analysis, we can certainly do this.

For instance, a lot of Lovecraft's creations including R'lyeth talk about non-euclidean angles making up their structures...




Hypercubes are non-euclidean objects, and the Time Lords have such science mastered enough that their starships have stars in them.


See my current avatar? Rassilon, the Lord President of the Time Lords.


Also found on other outfits and on their combat uniforms even for their lowest ranks:


The novels say that Rassilon adopted it and used it as the symbol of their poeple because he discovered that it was a symbol of power that was effacious against the Old Ones (in the book in question 'beings from outside the universe' which is how the Old Ones are described in other Who sources), conceptually similar to the Elder Sign which allows the US Military of the 20s or 30s to prevail against Deep Ones.

Only that war finished before Rassilon could use them. That’s why the Seal’s the shape it is. The pattern has a kind of. . . I don’t know. A kind of negative effect on some of the species from outside this universe. Something to do with the way their neurosystems work. Just looking at the detail would’ve been enough to make them go into spasm. Must have taken the Time Lords years, designing something like that.’

‘Like a crucifix,’ Sam said, trying to concentrate on several things at once.

‘If you say so. I think they call it an omniscate. Guest knows more about it than I do.’

Yes, the Time Lords are literally decorated in symbols that make extra-universal critters go into shock. (The implication in the book is that Time Lord versions of the symbol extend into other dimensions too and are fractal in some way).

Again, there's lots of things about the Time Lords being literally capable of things that Cthulhu isn't (for instance, time travel!), and even secondary sources that say they've fought his actual kind before. It's not simply 'they're the good guys so they win.' It's their actual feats.

Azathoth is however, worshipped as a god on Gallifrey by some dissident Gallifreyans, so it seems almost a no-brainer that he is more powerful, if you want a win for the 'alien' beings. But Cthulhu is down the middle-bottom of the scope of Lovecraft's creations.

[Mr Bean]

The thing about Cthulhu and the time lords is this. Cthulhu is already imprisoned in R'lyeh. Cults spontaneously arise from time to time as Cthulhu's mind reaches out unaided and unintentionally to preform the rituals required to wake him from his dreamless sleep where he lies dreaming. Cthulhu is by his nature a contradiction and depending on the Cthulhu used he's also semi-immune to time manipulation once awake as a multi-dimensional/multi-existence being. Pathfinder goes so far as to state that Cthulhu is a Non-Euclidean being in that he's not fully present in time or space because the Universe itself has trouble with Cthulhu being there the same way things get weird near black holes.

That said unless the Time Lord's are dealing with an awake and moving Cthulhu the ability to mess with time lets you deal with the quite mortal and to be honest quite crazy followers of the Old one who you can safely hit with a very large stick and stop them easily. By this nature no victory against Cthulhu is a permanent victory.

But remember Cthulhu is already contained in R'lyeh. He needs no more be defeated than his prison checked up on every once in awhile like making sure the batteries in the Universes smoke alarm are still fresh.

[Cykeisme]

You are correct, NecronLord.. H.P. Lovecraft, the writer, exists in the Doctor Who canon, as do the Old Ones, and I believe they are written to avoid any contradiction with the Mythos descriptions from the point of view of the human characters. It also introduces interesting limitations to the Old Ones (such as Cthulhu's consciousness being separated on the time winds and unable to return).

I found the information here to be an interesting read, though I have not looked up the cited sources:
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Great_Old_One

Here, the Old Ones don't have the bulk of their existence in some extra-dimensional plane and, on the contrary, are in fact quite vulnerable and weak, with their consciousnesses drifting through the "Time Vortex", helpless and unable to return to their bodies. They are certainly not beings that outstrip ordinary material races of the universe in scope and importance.
Furthermore, they were put into this helpless state by a threat that naturally evolved in the material universe that the Time Lords easily defeated (the Fendahl).

Thus, if the Time Lords are capable of defeating them in their own stories (down to having symbols that fight them just by being displayed!), then the Time Lord mentioned in the OP should certainly take the win. The Old Ones here are a minor nuisance, at best.


Anyway, indeed, since Cthulhu slumbers, actively and successfully preventing his reawakening counts as defeating him as a threat, regardless of his ability (or lack thereof) to affect our universes/timelines if he were to awaken.

As an aside, the friendly fictional character I refer to is The Doctor.
I do realize that the OP referred to a random unnamed Time Lord that most likely has no special place in his heart for lesser individuals or races, so I apologize!

[NecronLord]

As an aside, it occurs to me that the Seal of Rassilon actually has more in common with the Elder Sign described in Lovecraft's published works than either of the illustrations commonly used; where it's described as 'something like a swastika' which the Seal of Rassilon is certainly closer to than either of the main illustrations used by mythos fans, Lovecraft's own and Derleth's.

[Vendetta]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the madness caused by the Old Ones basically a side effect of having witnessed something that's "wrong" in such a fundamental level that your mind is simply unable to process what you see and breaks down in terror of seeing something so "wrong", rather then the madness being something the Old Ones have to spread willingly.

Yeah.

Also, Cthulhu is pretty small beans by Mythos standards. I mean sure his wakening would rend the minds of all on earth asunder, wiping out humanity without him even particularly knowing we were here, but he's really only a priest of the Outer Gods.

[libertyjim]

Wow I got to this late. Well first thing is that most likely the timelords will just leave because why should they care to mess with a being like Cthulhu when it's probably more trouble than it's worth? Second this isn't the Doctor vs Cthulhu, it's a bunch of timelords with four tardis' (please describe a war tardis; I was under the impression they're basically all made with all available equipment and therefore all of them are made for war). Third, NecronLord in response to your earlier quote about Cthulhu within the Who universe: Since we're taking the author's intention into account in that case I figure it's only fair to take Lovecraft's on as well. I very much doubt Lovecraft's universe contains timelords. As horrible as they are I think that's a little too hopeful (especially considering the Doctor) so I think it's better to assume that there's a Cthulhu in the Who verse which is different to the Lovecraftian Cthulhu. I don't actually think this changes much to the scenario but just a gripe I have. If the timelords need to combat Cthulhu they probably will just time-loop him. That's not really killing him and maybe he can escape with the help of a certain time-wimey relative of his (if he's really lucky) but that's probably how that 'fight' will go.

But here's my final and biggest gripe with this scenario.

Azathoth is however, worshipped as a god on Gallifrey by some dissident Gallifreyans, so it seems almost a no-brainer that he is more powerful, if you want a win for the 'alien' beings. But Cthulhu is down the middle-bottom of the scope of Lovecraft's creations.

People keep putting Cthulhu against the strongest things in other universes. This makes no sense as Cthulhu is no where near the most powerful thing in his own universe. I saw a thread somewhere pitting The Living Tribunal against Cthulhu. Obviously not a fair match up in any way. Azathoth or Yog-Sothoth however? That's fair and could spark some interesting conversation. Disclaimer: As far as I know timelords are basically a semi-omnipotent race of time travellers, unmatched by any other species in their universe.

[Tribble]

Disclaimer: As far as I know timelords are basically a semi-omnipotent race of time travellers, unmatched by any other species in their universe.

Except for the Daleks, who appeared to have the advantage during the Time War seeing as they had successfully sacked Arcadia and were in the process of bombarding the Capital before the Doctor intervened. To be fair the Time Lords never used The Moment as they feared it's judgement, and their attempts to use the Ultimate Sanction was thwarted by the 10th Doctor, so I suppose had they used either of those right off the bat they would have stomped the Daleks easily.

The Timelords are as about as close as you can get to the Q via biology and tech and it's implied that they could become virtually omnipotent under certain circumstances (such as using the Ultimate Sanction or absorbing some of the energy of the Time Vortex like Rose Tyler did).

[Parallax]

The Time Lords, more or less, are the supreme power in their setting. That being said, their main weakness is that a lot of the time they're content to sit back and do sweet bugger all about even catastrophic events. This arrogance and apathy can and has bitten them on the ass, such as the near conquering of Gallifrey back in The Invasion of Time - in short, once the Induction Barrier was overcome, Gallifrey was screwed.
Omega also came very close to defeating them in The Three Doctors, with only the Time Lords reaching out to the Doctor saving the day.

There were also The Eternals, who were immortal folks who spent most of their time being bored and being complete dicks about everything. They, again depending what you count as credible source material, posed as Gallifreyan Gods. http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Eternal
They seem to have fled reality as we know it during the Dalek/Time Lord war.

Of course, then you have beings such as The White and Black Guardians. http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Guardians_of_Time

To address a comment above - TARDIS' are exploration/science/monitoring/research craft. They are essentially without offensive capabilities. They are not built for combat.
Well, that does depend on the source material, actually. We've never seen an armed TARDIS in the TV series but novels such as The Gallifrey Chronicles have Type 40 TARDIS' able to use their Chameleon Circuit to form weapons on their exterior shell. Whether or not this count ... well, Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey Whatever.

[NecronLord]

Except for the Daleks, who appeared to have the advantage during the Time War seeing as they had successfully sacked Arcadia and were in the process of bombarding the Capital before the Doctor intervened. To be fair the Time Lords never used The Moment as they feared it's judgement, and their attempts to use the Ultimate Sanction was thwarted by the 10th Doctor, so I suppose had they used either of those right off the bat they would have stomped the Daleks easily.

That's only meaningful if you don't count the Doctor as a Time Lord. Of course, in the end the Doctor's loyalty to his homeworld does win out, and when his desertion ends, the Time Lords win; the Daleks are a remnant compared to what they were now, while Gallifrey is now comprehensively rebuilt and the daleks assuredly lost the final battle (Ten million ships on fire! The entire dalek race wiped out in one second!).

The Time Lords won the Time War.

Gallifrey Stands.

[Parallax]

Even in the worst case scenario, before the Doctor went back and moved Gallifrey rather than let it burn (yes, I know we could argue about whether Gallifrey ever actually burned but it's not relevant), you would have to label it as a draw. It was, for all intents and purposes, mutual destruction.
The Daleks, with their huge empire and war machine, threw everything they had at Gallifrey, a single planet, and managed a tie.

[mr friendly guy]

A few years ago we had this type of discussion. As more information came out, it did appeared the Time Lords had some edge.

At first it seemed the TL lost with the Eccleston Doctor's statement that his people lost. Then it turned out to be a draw, its just that the final battle was pretty pyrhic if yo think about it. Then RTD put some info in the source books which gave information that Skaro had been destroyed during the Time War. In other words the Time Lord's homeworld was still standing but the Daleks lost theirs. Granted they had more to lose, so its not quite a decapitating thing. Its quite possible to fight on when your capital had been lost, but its still makes it hard for you to say "you're winning," at that point. So prior to the final battle the Time Lords had some edge.

If the Doctor didn't stop the High Council, the TL would have sort of won. Well at least the High Council even though the average citizen of Gallifrey would have most probably die unless Rassilon's ascension method could cover everyone really quick.

At the end of the day, the Daleks had much more industry and the TL held a slight edge. With the Doctor its a victory.