Could Galatic empire build a warhammer 40K titan equivalent

[Boeing 757]

What if the Imperium were to teleport high-yield warheads into the Death Star's reactor?

You'd have to show that IoM teleporters are able to bypass Star Wars shielding. You'd also probably want to show that the targeting system for said teleporters would be able to cut through the heavy ECM that Star Wars is known for.

They can bypass 40k shields.... Why then would SW shields be any different, especially given that SW shields do NOT extend into the warp? Even Imperium void shields and gellar fields can not provide protection against them. Also I don't believe that SW electromagnetic countermeasures are as impressive as many on here purport...at least not to an extent by which we can claim that SW ECM is superior to the ECM of other sci-fi realms.

Also let's say hypothetically that the Adeptus Mechanicus could conjure up enough vortex missiles..what kind of damage could they inflict on the Death Star? The Empire has nothing that could possibly stop those AFAIK.

You'd once again have to show that a vortex missile could pass through a shield. Vortex missiles are powerful, but they do have limits, limits which include void shields.

I can't comment since I am not highly familiar with the full abilities of vortex missiles, hence why I wrote "hypothetically". I seem to recall that they could ignore 40k void shielding; I may be in error though.

[Jub]

They can bypass 40k shields.... Why then would SW shields be any different

Because void shields don't work anything like Star Wars shields. Star Wars shields wear down gradually and slowly recharge, Void shields simply pop at a certain energy value and then you have to wait for that entire shield section to come back up. Void shields can also have physical coverage gaps depending on the exact coverage provided by the generators, Star Wars shields don't appear to have gaps in them unless a section of shields has been knocked out by concentrated fire.

especially given that SW shields do NOT extend into the warp? Even Imperium void shields and gellar fields can not provide protection against them.

Why does the warp matter here at all, bypassing an IoM ship's shields could literally mean firing at a place where the shields don't properly overlap. Something which a Gauss flayer array could do by raking the hull with that weird green Necron lightning. This same gap in coverage would also allow for teleportation into said ship's hull.

Also I don't believe that SW electromagnetic countermeasures are as impressive as many on here purport...at least not to an extent by which we can claim that SW ECM is superior to the ECM of other sci-fi realms.

It's one of the few series where ECM and ECCM is even mentioned in the context of battles. Go re-read the novelization of ANH again and tell me that ECM wasn't playing a large part in making the attack on the Death Star more difficult.

The ball is also in your court for explaining which peer level series deals with ECM and ECCM as a matter of course.

I can't comment since I am not highly familiar with the full abilities of vortex missiles, hence why I wrote "hypothetically". I seem to recall that they could ignore 40k void shielding; I may be in error though.

In the current ruleset, they strip a single void shield on a hit. In older editions, they stripped all void shields from the target, or in the case of larger vehicles/vessels the targeted section of that target. They'd also only work on the IoM side of the portal as there isn't a Warp in the Star Wars universe to tear a hole in. They also need to hit the smaller, faster, and more nimble Star Wars ships when launched from a target with painfully sluggish sublight speeds. That could present an issue when it takes IoM vessels days to reach a planet from the edge of a system and, old canon, Wars ships could reach high fractions of C over the course of a single battle.

[Elheru Aran]

Vortex missiles are a nasty piece of work. We are talking something that can literally evaporate a massive sports stadium in a bubble of warp energy. Hard to quantify, though. But yeah, if they can't get through Wars shields, that's kinda moot.

Whether the Warp exists on the Wars side is an interesting question. If you put a Space Marine Librarian in the SWU, do his powers suddenly stop existing? Can daemons exist in the Star Wars universe? And vice versa-- put a Jedi on Ultramar, would he be able to use the Force? You have to rationalize that in some way.

[Jub]

Whether the Warp exists on the Wars side is an interesting question. If you put a Space Marine Librarian in the SWU, do his powers suddenly stop existing? Can daemons exist in the Star Wars universe? And vice versa-- put a Jedi on Ultramar, would he be able to use the Force? You have to rationalize that in some way.

I would probably say that it both sides have a vastly harder time doing anything outside of their home galaxy and even what they can manage is a lesser effect. This because they're having to draw on the little bit of the warp/the force they've brought with them. It also means effects like daemon summoning or tearing a rift into the warp to suck something in probably don't work at all on the Star Wars side, while things like Jedi precog and mind tricks don't work on the IoM side.

That would be my guess anyway.

[Vendetta]

People saying the Galactic Empire has less men, need to present calcs to back up that claim. The Imperium has a million worlds, the Galactic Empire has charted the entire galaxy and unified it, I'm not sure what stats there are in nu-canon, but it used to be rated at 50 million worlds.

On the other hand, the Empire doesn't have any enemies of equivalent scope and power, and their ships are so fast that they can respond quickly to insurgent activity just by keeping a few ships on ready state around the galaxy, so they don't need a massive standing army.

Also, Luke's intention to join the Academy in the first game as a way of getting off Tattooine implies that at least the Navy is not a conscript army, it's a volunteer force. It's highly possible that the Stormtrooper legions are the same (especially as it's effectively a peacetime force).

Also, if the Empire has 50 million worlds and recruits ten million troops from every single one of them then they have a hundred million less troops than are on Cadia alone.

[Elheru Aran]

...how the fuck does that work? 50x10 million is 500 trillion. How is Cadia not a solid block of concrete by now with a military population 100m stronger than that, leave alone civilians? We know canonically that Cadia *isn't* a solid block of concrete (see Eisenhorn, military graveyards). That's just... what the hell.

I mean, okay, the current population of the world (~6bn) would fit shoulder-to-shoulder on a space the size of Rhode Island... but come on. You can't *live* like that.

[Vendetta]

That was me making elementary maths errors when I'm tired and looking like an idiot, ah well.

Cadia has 600 million under arms at any one time, 70% of its population, it functionally has no civilians only people too young or too old to serve.

That's enough to fully crew eighteen thousand Star Destroyers.

There are good reasons to believe that the Empire doesn't maintain a standing force even that large though, because most planets aren't seen to have a standing military and don't need one because the Empire can get forces wherever it needs to in a matter of hours or days, so why bother with anything other than local police units and planetary defence forces.

[Boeing 757]

They can bypass 40k shields.... Why then would SW shields be any different

Because void shields don't work anything like Star Wars shields. Star Wars shields wear down gradually and slowly recharge, Void shields simply pop at a certain energy value and then you have to wait for that entire shield section to come back up. Void shields can also have physical coverage gaps depending on the exact coverage provided by the generators, Star Wars shields don't appear to have gaps in them unless a section of shields has been knocked out by concentrated fire.

Nice try, dude, but what does it matter how the shields of each respective universe work in this particular case? You seem to know a little about 40k, so I hope that you understand that teleporters transport stuff from one spot in normal space by sending them into the warp and making them emerge at some other point into real space? The method is akin to opening up a wormhole, basically making making any material or energy barrier in normal space a moot defense.

especially given that SW shields do NOT extend into the warp? Even Imperium void shields and gellar fields can not provide protection against them.

Why does the warp matter here at all, bypassing an IoM ship's shields could literally mean firing at a place where the shields don't properly overlap. Something which a Gauss flayer array could do by raking the hull with that weird green Necron lightning. This same gap in coverage would also allow for teleportation into said ship's hull.

That is similar to how ST transporters work. 40k teleporters function similarly to wormholes: that is, they actually send shit from one spot to another by throwing it out of this universe, and so since SW doesn't have any effective way of countering this nor even 40k whose technology is more heavily grounded on the usage of warp mechanics, I doubt there is anyway for the Empire to counter Imperium teleporters or Eldar D-cannons with any measure of credibility.

Moreover, there is some evidence that SW shields may not fully provide coverage over the entire vessel, such as when the Millenium Falcon attached itself to the hull of the star destroyer Avenger while still in a combat situation.

Also I don't believe that SW electromagnetic countermeasures are as impressive as many on here purport...at least not to an extent by which we can claim that SW ECM is superior to the ECM of other sci-fi realms.

It's one of the few series where ECM and ECCM is even mentioned in the context of battles.

No, it fucking isn’t. Among others Andromedaverse, Haloverse, Cultureverse, Weberverses, Star Trek and WH40k all employ ECM and/or ECCM. SW isn’t a unique snowflake in that respect, yet this persistent brain bug that SW jamming is mightier than that of other sci-fis and can do extraordinary things like bend space-time lingers furthermore.

[Go re-read the novelization of ANH again and tell me that ECM wasn't playing a large part in making the attack on the Death Star more difficult.

Well no shit…who could have rightfully not guessed that a huge battle testicle of doom would not possess the capability of screwing with the Rebels’ already shoddy and out of date sensor suites. Is this really shocking to anyone?

The ball is also in your court for explaining which peer level series deals with ECM and ECCM as a matter of course.

Ahm, no the ball still lies in your court given that you brought it up in the first place; so explain why SW ECM is a fail-safe for blocking 40k teleporters.

I can't comment since I am not highly familiar with the full abilities of vortex missiles, hence why I wrote "hypothetically". I seem to recall that they could ignore 40k void shielding; I may be in error though.

In the current ruleset, they strip a single void shield on a hit. In older editions, they stripped all void shields from the target, or in the case of larger vehicles/vessels the targeted section of that target.

OK. So it seems both in older 40k fluff and the newer that vortex warheads may negate the effect of shielding, just as Eldar D-cannons. However, I don't think they are so easily quantified. It's hard to tell what kind of harm they could inflict and whether to any measurable degree so that they could even present a viable threat to something the size of the Death Star.

They'd also only work on the IoM side of the portal as there isn't a Warp in the Star Wars universe to tear a hole in.

Well if you want to play that game, hyperspace and the Force do not exist in 40k....

They also need to hit the smaller, faster, and more nimble Star Wars ships when launched from a target with painfully sluggish sublight speeds. That could present an issue when it takes IoM vessels days to reach a planet from the edge of a system and, old canon, Wars ships could reach high fractions of C over the course of a single battle.

AFAIK 40k ships are also able to reach high percentages of lightspeed, as witnessed in the Leoten Sempre Battlefleet Gothic books. Also, 40k warships have much greater ranges than what we see in SW, that span tens of thousands of kilometers. The only weapon in SW that came even close to that thus far is the Death Star, and possibly this new superweapon that we will see in the new film.

[Jub]

Nice try, dude, but what does it matter how the shields of each respective universe work in this particular case? You seem to know a little about 40k, so I hope that you understand that teleporters transport stuff from one spot in normal space by sending them into the warp and making them emerge at some other point into real space? The method is akin to opening up a wormhole, basically making making any material or energy barrier in normal space a moot defense.

Just like the teleporters in Star Trek are assumed to beam through a Star Destroyer's shields... oh wait, we don't assume that at all. In order to open a wormhole, you still need to get through the energy barrier that is sci-fi shielding. Wormholes aren't magic, they still need a way in.

That is similar to how ST transporters work. 40k teleporters function similarly to wormholes: that is, they actually send shit from one spot to another by throwing it out of this universe, and so since SW doesn't have any effective way of countering this nor even 40k whose technology is more heavily grounded on the usage of warp mechanics, I doubt there is anyway for the Empire to counter Imperium teleporters or Eldar D-cannons with any measure of credibility.

We don't assume that Trek's teleporter's will work through shields. Star Wars also deals with extra-dimensional travel on a daily basis, hint, it's called hyperspace. Lastly, you need the warp to make 40k teleporters work, there is no warp energy in the Star Wars galaxy, so at best teleporters are a limited defensive option.

Moreover, there is some evidence that SW shields may not fully provide coverage over the entire vessel, such as when the Millenium Falcon attached itself to the hull of the star destroyer Avenger while still in a combat situation.

Or, you know, they're designed to let out fighters and landing craft and, by definition, let them back in again.

No, it fucking isn’t. Among others Andromedaverse, Haloverse, Cultureverse, Weberverses, Star Trek and WH40k all employ ECM and/or ECCM. SW isn’t a unique snowflake in that respect, yet this persistent brain bug that SW jamming is mightier than that of other sci-fis and can do extraordinary things like bend space-time lingers furthermore.

Andromeda, Halo, the Culture, Weber's books, and Trek simply aren't peer level foes for the GE. They're all either well above in tech level or well below. This isn't to mention that 40k simply lacks sensor tech on the same scale that Wars has. To give some examples IoM fleets rely on the Astronomican for navigation, they lack FTL sensors, they lack anything like communications tech that runs the holonet, they certainly can't fit an FTL communications suite to something as small as a probe droid.

Well no shit…who could have rightfully not guessed that a huge battle testicle of doom would not possess the capability of screwing with the Rebels’ already shoddy and out of date sensor suites. Is this really shocking to anyone?

The Incom T-65 'X-Wing' was a top of the line starfighter at the time of the battle Yavin. It was still in the prototype stage when captured only a year before the death star went down. It was also noted for being a useful recon craft with a good sensor suite. So please do, tell me about how outdated the X-Wing was again...

Ahm, no the ball still lies in your court given that you brought it up in the first place; so explain why SW ECM is a fail-safe for blocking 40k teleporters.

It's not, it's one system of many. However, as shown above, Star Wars has sensors with capabilities the IoM would worship Chaos icons for.

OK. So it seems both in older 40k fluff and the newer that vortex warheads may negate the effect of shielding, just as Eldar D-cannons.

Most void shields can be brought down with a certain volume of autocannon fire. That doesn't exactly bode well for vortex weapons when any given auto-cannon shot can impart enough energy to drop a layer of void shielding and a vortex missile can, at best in the current rules, accomplish the same feat.

Well if you want to play that game, hyperspace and the Force do not exist in 40k....

I'll give you the force. But unlike the Warp, hyperspace doesn't rely, on what is explicitly called out as supernatural in its own universe to function. Hyperspace is a mere law of physics, it doesn't require untold numbers of psykers and a host of gods to function. There's also the fact that the Tau, a race that are blind to the warp, have managed FTL via means other than the Warp.

AFAIK 40k ships are also able to reach high percentages of lightspeed, as witnessed in the Leoten Sempre Battlefleet Gothic books. Also, 40k warships have much greater ranges than what we see in SW, that span tens of thousands of kilometers. The only weapon in SW that came even close to that thus far is the Death Star, and possibly this new superweapon that we will see in the new film.

If 40k ships are so fast, why does it take military vessels anywhere between days to months to reach a system when coming out of the warp? Are the guard and space marines just being fuel efficient, or are the high fractions of C speeds an outlier when looking at 40k fleets as a whole? There's also evidence of light minute engagement ranges in Star Wars though that's been relegated to Legacy status for the time being.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Actually, the Warp doesn't rely on realspace psykers, you're confusing the Warp with beings in the Warp. It's supposed to be an echo of the souls of all the sentient creatures int he galaxy. Since the SW galaxy contains sentient beings, ergo the Warp will still exist there. It won't contain any Gods or daemons (yet) but it's there, just like how the Warp exited in the 40K verse at least sixty million years before the Chaos Gods emerged (it was used by the Old Ones in their war with the Necrons after all).

As for IoM ships relying on the Astronimicon, yeah, they rely on it for navigating in the Warp, not all the damn time. I'd also like to see you evidence that they have no FTL sensors. The point about the Tau achieving non-Warp FTL is also spurious, they do in fact use the Warp, but they only "skim" it in short jumps, because they lack any psykers to navigate it any deeper than that.

On the matter of 40K teleporters bypassing shields, we can assume they can do so because we see them bypass shields within the setting, whereas we do not assume the same from ST transporters because within ST we do not see them bypass shields (outsideof a few random cases).

[Jub]

Actually, the Warp doesn't rely on realspace psykers, you're confusing the Warp with beings in the Warp. It's supposed to be an echo of the souls of all the sentient creatures int he galaxy. Since the SW galaxy contains sentient beings, ergo the Warp will still exist there. It won't contain any Gods or daemons (yet) but it's there, just like how the Warp exited in the 40K verse at least sixty million years before the Chaos Gods emerged (it was used by the Old Ones in their war with the Necrons after all).

That's bullshit. If the Warp merely used sentience as fuel races like the Tau and the Orks would be equal in terms of their presence in the warp. Also, given the nature of the Warp, the Force would have spawned a warp god by now, but it hasn't. Nor has any other system of belief in Star Wars spawned so much as a nurgling. Their wars haven't summoned Khorne, their scheming hasn't interested Tzneech, their sex and drugs haven't spawned Slaanesh, and their bioweapons haven't called out to Nurgle. It's as plain as day that the warp doesn't exist in Star Wars.

As for IoM ships relying on the Astronimicon, yeah, they rely on it for navigating in the Warp, not all the damn time.

I'm pretty sure they also use it for communications as well, but I could be incorrect.

I'd also like to see you evidence that they have no FTL sensors.

I'd like to see your evidence that I'm not cohabitating with a billion-year-old sentient purple octopus named paul (yes, he spells it with a lower case p, he's strange). Show evidence that they do have FTL comms and sensors, which if they did would mean FTL communications which they clearly lack outside of psykers, or kindly fuck right off.

The point about the Tau achieving non-Warp FTL is also spurious, they do in fact use the Warp, but they only "skim" it in short jumps, because they lack any psykers to navigate it any deeper than that.

That's one way to look at how the old fluff laid things out. They used an Ether Drive that allowed them to 'dive' into the realm between realspace and the Warp. Note that they went to a different layer between the two.

Of course any of this still being canon is anybody's guess... given that this was from 4th ed and we're up to 7th edition now.

On the matter of 40K teleporters bypassing shields, we can assume they can do so because we see them bypass shields within the setting, whereas we do not assume the same from ST transporters because within ST we do not see them bypass shields (outsideof a few random cases).

It's also been established that 40k shields aren't bubble shields and have physical gaps between them. So they don't go through them, but around them.

[Jub]

[double post]

[Eternal_Freedom]

Actually, the Warp doesn't rely on realspace psykers, you're confusing the Warp with beings in the Warp. It's supposed to be an echo of the souls of all the sentient creatures int he galaxy. Since the SW galaxy contains sentient beings, ergo the Warp will still exist there. It won't contain any Gods or daemons (yet) but it's there, just like how the Warp exited in the 40K verse at least sixty million years before the Chaos Gods emerged (it was used by the Old Ones in their war with the Necrons after all).

That's bullshit. If the Warp merely used sentience as fuel races like the Tau and the Orks would be equal in terms of their presence in the warp. Also, given the nature of the Warp, the Force would have spawned a warp god by now, but it hasn't. Nor has any other system of belief in Star Wars spawned so much as a nurgling. Their wars haven't summoned Khorne, their scheming hasn't interested Tzneech, their sex and drugs haven't spawned Slaanesh, and their bioweapons haven't called out to Nurgle. It's as plain as day that the warp doesn't exist in Star Wars.

Did you miss the part where I said it's the echo of the sentient creature's souls, not sentience itself? The Orks are an odd case as their belief in something working makes it work, if they started thinking they had psyker powers things would go wrong rather quickly. As for the Tau, they explicitly have a very limited Warp presence for some reason or other (I recall some hints that the Ethereals made this happen but cannot confirm).

Of course the Warp doesn't exist in SW, it's from a different franchise after all. You're points about their wars not interesting Khorne etc, of course not, because the Chaos Gods don't exist int he SW galaxy, yet. Most likely because the SW galaxy didn't have an apocalyptic war using Warp weapons like the 40K galaxy did (Old Ones vs. Necrontyr and C'Tan).

Hell, maybe the Light Side and the Dark Side are proto-Gods that are still forming, that allow those with a certain genetic trait (Force sensitivity compared to psyker gene) to use their powers if they act a certain way (meditation and calm vs. passion and rage, for instance).

As for IoM ships relying on the Astronimicon, yeah, they rely on it for navigating in the Warp, not all the damn time.

I'm pretty sure they also use it for communications as well, but I could be incorrect.

Nope, Astronomicon just acts as a "lighthouse" in the Warp. Galaxy-wide FTL comms is provided by astropaths, a certain breed of psyker.

I'd also like to see you evidence that they have no FTL sensors.

I'd like to see your evidence that I'm not cohabitating with a billion-year-old sentient purple octopus named paul (yes, he spells it with a lower case p, he's strange). Show evidence that they do have FTL comms and sensors, which if they did would mean FTL communications which they clearly lack outside of psykers, or kindly fuck right off.

Hey, you made the claim.

AS for FTL sensors or comms, hmm. Only thing that springs to mind immediately (having not head a huge amount of the books outside of rulebooks and some codexes) would be in Horus Rising, as the Lunar Wolves fleet is preparing to jump to Murder, Horus and his Captains study a sensor map of the planet's orbital space and see traces of numerous vessels in orbit and from their formation, conclude another Legion fleet is present. Imprecise, yes, but there nonetheless.

I can also recall no mention of lightspeed lag when communicating within a solar system. I would conclude that they have some limited FTL comms/sensors, enough to be useful within a solar system but not effective at interstellar distances.

The point about the Tau achieving non-Warp FTL is also spurious, they do in fact use the Warp, but they only "skim" it in short jumps, because they lack any psykers to navigate it any deeper than that.

That's one way to look at how the old fluff laid things out. They used an Ether Drive that allowed them to 'dive' into the realm between realspace and the Warp. Note that they went to a different layer between the two.

Of course any of this still being canon is anybody's guess... given that this was from 4th ed and we're up to 7th edition now.

Hmm, AFAIK (not being a Tau player, damned Battlesuits) that's how they still get around. It's not a limitation of the drives but of having no psykers to navigate for them.

Now if you want actual non-Warp FTL the Necrons back in 3rd/4th/5th edition had inertialess drives that could take them across the galaxy rapidly without using the Warp, though I think that's been retconned away.

On the matter of 40K teleporters bypassing shields, we can assume they can do so because we see them bypass shields within the setting, whereas we do not assume the same from ST transporters because within ST we do not see them bypass shields (outsideof a few random cases).

It's also been established that 40k shields aren't bubble shields and have physical gaps between them. So they don't go through them, but around them.

Yeah, around them through the Warp. They can go through Hive-City-grade void shields easily enough (the Imperial Fist's 1st Company teleported into a renegade Hive, past the shields, but got scattered by a jammer or something - note, scattered (sometimes fatally) but still teleported down.

[Sea Skimmer]

They can bypass 40k shields.... Why then would SW shields be any different, especially given that SW shields do NOT extend into the warp? Even Imperium void shields and gellar fields can not provide protection against them. Also I don't believe that SW electromagnetic countermeasures are as impressive as many on here purport...at least not to an extent by which we can claim that SW ECM is superior to the ECM of other sci-fi realms.

How many sci fi realms ever have jammer which are ever explained in any remote way at all? Serious question because I can think of zero, but most sci fi I've learned about in the past decade just made my eyes role, or else was character focused. For a less serious one, how many people here understand the difference of my half trick question of asking what is the difference between barrage jamming and sidelobe jamming?

It's not a topic that's going to lead to very productive discussions frankly. But it seems reasonable to assume that faction whom bother to have a serious electronic warfare apparatus at all probably have something which is effective against their own systems. At least in Star Wars though we know the topic is commonplace and thus rationally the gear commonplace and highly effective, at least effective enough that serious attempts are not made to negate it electronically once employed. Considering their non trival level of technology, and the fact that so much of it appears to be reproduceable, not plot of the week wonderwaffen, that's a pretty fair reason to assume its going to work well on other peoples gear as well.

If that actually matters is a different story. A radar jammer and a laser blinder wouldn't let a trireme beat Yamato.

[Simon_Jester]

Nice try, dude, but what does it matter how the shields of each respective universe work in this particular case? You seem to know a little about 40k, so I hope that you understand that teleporters transport stuff from one spot in normal space by sending them into the warp and making them emerge at some other point into real space? The method is akin to opening up a wormhole, basically making making any material or energy barrier in normal space a moot defense.

Just like the teleporters in Star Trek are assumed to beam through a Star Destroyer's shields... oh wait, we don't assume that at all. In order to open a wormhole, you still need to get through the energy barrier that is sci-fi shielding. Wormholes aren't magic, they still need a way in.

A wormhole doesn't need to get through the energy barrier that is a brick wall; it bypasses it. In and of itself the fact that there's an obstacle in the path of a teleporter is not sufficient proof that the teleporter will have to breach the obstacle.

Moreover, Star Trek transporters are repeatedly demonstrated as being ineffective at transporting through shields in their own setting. They have various gimmicks that sometimes let them bypass shields, but in general cannot beam through their own shields. It is therefore logical that if Star Trek transporters can't beam through their own shields, they also cannot beam through anyone else's, unless there's something unique about their own shields (so far as I know, there isn't).

But Warhammer 40000 teleporters do NOT consistently have trouble teleporting through shields in their own setting. Why would that suddenly change when they're working on someone else's shields?

We don't assume that Trek's teleporter's will work through shields. Star Wars also deals with extra-dimensional travel on a daily basis, hint, it's called hyperspace. Lastly, you need the warp to make 40k teleporters work, there is no warp energy in the Star Wars galaxy, so at best teleporters are a limited defensive option.

This response is a mass of self-contradictions. For one, you say that higher dimensions exist and are operated with in Star Wars, without providing evidence that Star Wars shielding blocks them. Just because they know hyperspace exists doesn't mean their shields cover against attacks that pass through hyperspace. There's no reason to assume they can or will do that, because Star Wars has no weapon technologies in normal service that attack via hyperspace.

For another, the assumption that the Warp does not exist in Star Wars is unfounded, and if we apply this assumption consistently there is no hyperspace in Warhammer's Milky Way, neither side has FTL propulsion or communication, and the whole encounter turns into a silly and irrelevant joke.

Moreover, there is some evidence that SW shields may not fully provide coverage over the entire vessel, such as when the Millenium Falcon attached itself to the hull of the star destroyer Avenger while still in a combat situation.

Or, you know, they're designed to let out fighters and landing craft and, by definition, let them back in again.

This is nevertheless a gap in the defenses. If physical objects the size of a house can literally fly through the shield and land on the hull of your ship, that represents a weakness in your defenses. The same weakness may or may not do someone trying to teleport aboard any good, but it certainly means your ship is not shielded against all possible attacks from all angles to a thorough extent.

Well no shit…who could have rightfully not guessed that a huge battle testicle of doom would not possess the capability of screwing with the Rebels’ already shoddy and out of date sensor suites. Is this really shocking to anyone?

The Incom T-65 'X-Wing' was a top of the line starfighter at the time of the battle Yavin. It was still in the prototype stage when captured only a year before the death star went down. It was also noted for being a useful recon craft with a good sensor suite. So please do, tell me about how outdated the X-Wing was again...

Although it occurs to me that if you stole a bunch of prototype fighters straight from the factory, they might not be fully equipped with the sensors they're designed to use in combat service. If you stole the US Air Force's prototype F-35s right now, you might well be very disappointed in them. Many of their software systems, sensors, and weapons control devices are still either untested, incompletely tested, or not working.

I'll give you the force. But unlike the Warp, hyperspace doesn't rely, on what is explicitly called out as supernatural in its own universe to function. Hyperspace is a mere law of physics, it doesn't require untold numbers of psykers and a host of gods to function.

The Warp doesn't require large numbers of psychics or a bunch of gods to exist either- it just happens to be the place where those gods live and through which the psychic messages travel. You're getting cause and effect wrong; it's as though you were saying that an alien planet can't possibly have oceans because it has no fish.

AFAIK 40k ships are also able to reach high percentages of lightspeed, as witnessed in the Leoten Sempre Battlefleet Gothic books. Also, 40k warships have much greater ranges than what we see in SW, that span tens of thousands of kilometers. The only weapon in SW that came even close to that thus far is the Death Star, and possibly this new superweapon that we will see in the new film.

If 40k ships are so fast, why does it take military vessels anywhere between days to months to reach a system when coming out of the warp? Are the guard and space marines just being fuel efficient, or are the high fractions of C speeds an outlier when looking at 40k fleets as a whole? There's also evidence of light minute engagement ranges in Star Wars though that's been relegated to Legacy status for the time being.

Fuel efficiency and engine service are definitely possible answers, because in Warhammer 40000 ship engines are designed to operate for many months without refueling and for centuries without dockyard maintenance. Often, the engines (and the rest of the ship) are ancient relics thousands of years old. It would be very sensible for them to normally operate at very low power settings compared to what they are theoretically capable of... but the evidence on this issue is mixed.

In general, 40k accelerations are in the tens or hundreds of gravities. At ten gravities you could reach half the speed of light in about 1.5 million seconds (roughly seventeen days). At 100 gravities it would take about 1.7 days.

On this point I actually agree with you; while Imperium ships may well have the ability to travel at relativistic speeds, they do NOT normally have high enough accelerations to reach those speeds in a relevant amount of time. There may be individual ships that have this ability, or even individual fleets where the ability is common, but you can't just point to any old Imperial ship and assume it can reach half the speed of light in a useful timespan. Given several days in which to burn the engines, sure- but that's not a reasonable timescale for tactical issues.

---

And to reply to some who spoke to me...

To borrow TVTropes-isms, this is "Fragile Speedster" against "Mighty Glacier." And it's not because individual Star Wars ships can't take a 'punch' from the Imperium (they can). It's because once Star Wars starts taking significant casualties, or starts losing significant numbers of ships to Chaos, they really are not in a good position to recover and keep fighting effectively.

I'm not sure about that. Consider how quickly forces were made while they were at war, while the Imperium's ship construction is a continuous process where each ship takes many years to make. Sure, the Imperium is more militarized from the star, but the rate SW can militarize is impressive.

The Death Star took 20 years to build, which is a blink of an eye to the Imperium's strategic situation, and in the same time all the Clone Wars Venators and Acclamators were gone, replaced with Star Destroyers. The Victory class being the only CW ship still in regular service.

For one, the volume of ships that the Republic and Imperial militaries are replacing is very small compared to what the Imperium would have to replace. An Imperial star destroyer is about the size of one of the Imperium's frigates or corvettes; just because the Imperium can't replace tens of thousands of battleships in a few decades doesn't mean it can't replace tens of thousands of corvettes.

By analogy, during World War Two the British built enormous numbers of destroyers very quickly... but totally halted the construction of entire categories of capital ships that they didn't feel they could finish in a useful amount of time.

For another, the trouble is that once we talk about the Empire being able to replace its whole fleet in five or ten years... the Empire doesn't necessarily have five or ten years. Historically, within five years of the completion of the first Death Star, you have Endor and the death of the Emperor and the beginning of the breakup of the Empire at the hands of the Rebellion.

Clone Wars, Vong War, each only a few years long, and each had the Republic build gigantic fleets in that time frame.

If Star Wars is a 'fragile speedster,' it's one that can repair damage done to it's fragility fast.

The catch here isn't so much the ability to build a new fleet, it's that losing the existing fleet may have consequences. The Empire rules largely by force and fear, but it really doesn't have very much force per unit of space. The existing canon provides little reason to think the Empire has enough ships to consistently garrison all of its inhabited planets. At seems like they have only small numbers of ships (a few dozen) to spare for critical duties like guarding the second Death Star or hunting the rebels' primary starbase.

Plus, in Legends canon we have examples of independent political powers like the Hapan surviving and not joining the Empire because the Empire was unwilling or unable to pay the price required to conquer them. Given the 'personality' of the Empire, this suggests that their iron fist of oppression may still have a few fingers under construction.*

Even though the Empire clearly has thousands of starships, circumstantial evidence suggests that those ships are being kept busy, and that if they were lost there might be immediate negative consequences for the Empire's political stability.
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*Credit for that image to a friend of mine...

---

One option a Star Wars faction has in such a scenario is to send a droid army. that would normally have the problem that it would be politically problematic in the aftermath of the Clone Wars, but in a fight like this it wouldn't matter. This would be a solution to the manpower limitations that seem to plague Star Wars militaries(hence why the Clone Wars were fought solely between hastily created and expendable armies as well as why the Empire built a Death Star). Droids might not be as effective man for man, but they could be created based on resources gathered in the target galaxy and using prefab facilities. That would make the reinforcement problem even easier.

This would work, BUT...
1) The Empire seems very reluctant to rely on battledroids, at least until well into the post-Endor era by which point they're in the process of collapsing as a political entity and aren't capable of conquering a whole new galaxy.
2) It is uncertain what will happen if you introduce large numbers of robot armies into the 40k Milky Way. Either they would be very reliable politically, or very unreliable. We know that 40k humanity used to employ quite sophisticated droids (the Iron Men)... and that these Iron Men proved rebellious and vulnerable to Chaos infestation.

As for the Chaos, how do we know it would affect a Dark Sider? They are already corrupted by one thing, how would that make them more likely to be corrupted by an entirely different force(of sorts). I don't really have any particular knowledge of how Chaos works, how exactly does it corrupt people?

Chaos can contact you telepathically (even if you're not already a telepath). Its gods and demons can implant messages in your mind. It can send you visions, can infect you with memetic ideas that cause you to become obsessed with doing things it wants you to do. It can do all these things fairly quickly. It can offer earth-shaking supernatural powers, greater even than anything a Sith Lord exhibits in the movie era, to those who serve it.

In addition to which, a human soldier who is physically struck by a piece of a Chaos idol or a powerful Chaos being may well end up physically transforming into a Chaos beast themselves, even against their will.

Chaos is very infectious compared to the Dark Side of the Force. I would not trust anyone who fell to the Dark Side, and who explicitly embraces the 'ideal' of seeking personal power regardless of the cost to others, to resist the temptations of Chaos.

The next fundamental problem is one of why would the Empire ever decide to carry out such an attack? I could understand the GE attacking the Star Trek galaxy because it is a relatively easy target, but why would they attack an enemy that is potentially stronger than them? What I would see in such a scenario is the Empire using the Death Star to blast the wormhole connecting the two galaxies. Not sure of W40K could do anything to prevent this.

I doubt they could and honestly doubt they'd want to. Especially if they consider the Empire to be a bunch of xenos, a bunch of heretics, or a bunch of xenos heretics. The Imperium would probably say "we are well rid of them."

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Oddly enough, droids would probably be the best choice for fighting in the 40K universe, for the reasons you stated and one major one: being machines, they have no souls and thus don't feed Chaos through their actions (massive wars feed Khorne, rot and decay feeds Nurgle etc). Plus Thy would probably be more resistant to some psyker attacks, not having souls and all that. You'd basically have a easily-built version of Necrons without the infighting, political intrigue and envy of the living that their various Dynasties engage in.

I wouldn't assume that droids do not have souls without evidence, but that's my philosophical issues kicking in.

Thing is... the Iron Men presumably didn't have souls either, and still rebelled or were subverted by Chaos. And there is considerable evidence that in 40k "machine spirits" are a thing that actually exists, which would further complicate the situation. Droids are advanced and complex enough that it seems unlikely to me that they are entirely without such a machine spirit in the 40k Milky Way.

People saying the Galactic Empire has less men, need to present calcs to back up that claim. The Imperium has a million worlds, the Galactic Empire has charted the entire galaxy and unified it, I'm not sure what stats there are in nu-canon, but it used to be rated at 50 million worlds. The Imperium's terra is ungoverned below the top layers, while the Empire has Coruscant, which in nu-canon, seems to go deep into the core of the planet. The Galactic Empire built the death stars in secret. Confronted with a witch-burning theocracy and tyranids, they would have no need for secrecy, and could build them faster.

The Empire may well have an equal or higher population than the Imperium. But it also has a much lower average level of militarization. So far as I know, there just isn't evidence for the Empire practicing total-war conscription of soldiers across its entire territory. Now, the Empire might be able to change this given a few years to mobilize... but that would involve massive dislocations of its war economy.

[Adam Reynolds]

[
How many sci fi realms ever have jammer which are ever explained in any remote way at all? Serious question because I can think of zero, but most sci fi I've learned about in the past decade just made my eyes role, or else was character focused. For a less serious one, how many people here understand the difference of my half trick question of asking what is the difference between barrage jamming and sidelobe jamming?

Isn't it the difference between raw power and clever tricks? Sidelobe jamming is a means of using less power to get the same result by using the radar emitter against itself. Seems like it wouldn't work against AESA radars.

Another factor in favor of SW jamming being effecting against other settings is that no one ever considers working around it. They only ever attempt to burn through it or to destroy whatever is producing it.

[Simon_Jester]

Sorry about the formatting issue on my last post.

It's not a topic that's going to lead to very productive discussions frankly. But it seems reasonable to assume that faction whom bother to have a serious electronic warfare apparatus at all probably have something which is effective against their own systems. At least in Star Wars though we know the topic is commonplace and thus rationally the gear commonplace and highly effective, at least effective enough that serious attempts are not made to negate it electronically once employed...

I'm not so sure of that. Star Wars has compact artificially intelligence computers to the point where people talk about tramp freighter computers as though they were sentient. It could well be that ECCM is alive and well and everyone is constantly trying to negate enemy electronic warfare electronically, but that this part of the 'battle' is almost entirely delegated to computerized systems which are self-aware enough to do it without close human supervision.

[Adam Reynolds]

Sorry about the formatting issue on my last post.

It's not a topic that's going to lead to very productive discussions frankly. But it seems reasonable to assume that faction whom bother to have a serious electronic warfare apparatus at all probably have something which is effective against their own systems. At least in Star Wars though we know the topic is commonplace and thus rationally the gear commonplace and highly effective, at least effective enough that serious attempts are not made to negate it electronically once employed...

I'm not so sure of that. Star Wars has compact artificially intelligence computers to the point where people talk about tramp freighter computers as though they were sentient. It could well be that ECCM is alive and well and everyone is constantly trying to negate enemy electronic warfare electronically, but that this part of the 'battle' is almost entirely delegated to computerized systems which are self-aware enough to do it without close human supervision.

That actually is a quite reasonable idea. Something similar was mentioned in the X-wing novels using R2 units(though that might have been more about breaking encryption). In particular, I believe Corran Horn's droid was especially good at this because it had a background in security work.

[Q99]

For one, the volume of ships that the Republic and Imperial militaries are replacing is very small compared to what the Imperium would have to replace. An Imperial star destroyer is about the size of one of the Imperium's frigates or corvettes; just because the Imperium can't replace tens of thousands of battleships in a few decades doesn't mean it can't replace tens of thousands of corvettes.

By analogy, during World War Two the British built enormous numbers of destroyers very quickly... but totally halted the construction of entire categories of capital ships that they didn't feel they could finish in a useful amount of time.

For another, the trouble is that once we talk about the Empire being able to replace its whole fleet in five or ten years... the Empire doesn't necessarily have five or ten years. Historically, within five years of the completion of the first Death Star, you have Endor and the death of the Emperor and the beginning of the breakup of the Empire at the hands of the Rebellion.

On the flip side I will note the Imperium's ships are often in service for centuries or millennia. It has a fairly small replacement rate- while the Empire replaced most of the capital ships in the galaxy while building two Death Stars (one high-ranker in the latest Vader comic laments how many SSDs they could've had in place of 'Tarkin's Folly'), and then the New Republic had made the Mon Cal the most common capital ship not long after. And that's without the kind of full crash rush building the Clone Wars or Vong War had.

Sure, they're individually a fair bit smaller, but even so, I don't think they're at all disadvantaged industrially.

The catch here isn't so much the ability to build a new fleet, it's that losing the existing fleet may have consequences. The Empire rules largely by force and fear, but it really doesn't have very much force per unit of space. The existing canon provides little reason to think the Empire has enough ships to consistently garrison all of its inhabited planets. At seems like they have only small numbers of ships (a few dozen) to spare for critical duties like guarding the second Death Star or hunting the rebels' primary starbase.

Ah yes, that's a good point. While battles with hundreds or thousands of ships do exist in the large wars, they're the minority, and the unrest of the Empire pins much of their number down.

[Purple]

Actually, the Warp doesn't rely on realspace psykers, you're confusing the Warp with beings in the Warp. It's supposed to be an echo of the souls of all the sentient creatures int he galaxy. Since the SW galaxy contains sentient beings, ergo the Warp will still exist there. It won't contain any Gods or daemons (yet) but it's there, just like how the Warp exited in the 40K verse at least sixty million years before the Chaos Gods emerged (it was used by the Old Ones in their war with the Necrons after all).

Am I the only one who sees a similarity between it and the force? A magical mystical thing that surrounds and binds all souls and all that. And the force is implied to have a will of its own and yet be in a state of flux sufficient that a "chosen one" can bring "balance" to it. I would not at all be surprised if in a crossover scenario the force it self turned out to be a hegemonic chaos god of the SW galaxy. And the reason why the warp does not manifest it self would than simply be the fact that as a hegemonic entity it would be the representation of all human tropes and emotions at once and thus wear toward neither extreme and thus basically be in a state of balance that precludes massive excesses like those inflicted by the chaos gods.

[NecronLord]

Some points of evidence, mostly with respect to 40k.

Shields vs Teleporters

Yes, void shields block teleporters in 40k. It's not Star Trek in that you can beam out through your own shields, but you need to drop an enemy ship's shields to do so (Battlefleet Gothic, Rogue Trader RPG rules & background). Please show me sources where a teleporter attack is carried out by the Imperium through an enemy shield.

Inertialess Drive

Necron Inertialess Drives exist again as of 7th edition. In the Shield of Ba'al campaign books Anrakyr the Traveller has a fleet with them, which he uses to escape damage at the end from a necron stellar-weapon called the Starflame, which destroys every other ship in the system. The comments from the 5th edition book about how the necrons required Dolmen Gates are not repeated in the new codex. It's possible to reconcile the two by imagining that the inertialess drives are rare (Anrakyr the Traveller is the only confirmed user) of course.

Vortex Missiles vs Death Star

Vortex missiles do not pass through shields without interacting at least on ground-scale, Ship to ship torpedos do but only as ship mounted void shields do not stop torpedos, which are too slow to trigger the shield. Brian Young suggests that this is also true of Star Wars shields, but of course, in 40k the primary defence against torpedos is however, turrets, which the death star has lots of; remember, 40K torpedos are big targets, and most are unguided, meaning they cannot evade. (Game wise, vortex is a seperate upgrade from guided, so guided vortex torpedos do not exist).

Hyperspace existing in 40K

Talk about there not being a warp or not being a hyperspace is asinine, and defeats the point of a vs, which is that all sides' technology functions as advertised.

Side Note: Hyperspace being an additional dimension is dubious/questionable with the current canonical evidence. Have regard to Dr. Saxton's Website detailing his theories on it. While these theories were canon in Legends due to being included in the ICS, they are wholly movie based, and I am not aware of any current canon endorsement for the extra-universal note. Tachyonic travel of this nature of course, is physically possible in 40k, as the necrons have a weapon that uses the same principles to project an FTL impactor into an enemy in ground combat, the infamous Tachyon Arrow.

40K Communications/FTL Scanning

Given that astropaths are capable of transmitting data (various) and even voice (Ravenor books), it's a fair bet that the incident in Horus Rising was the Lunar Wolves looking at a map transmitted by the Emperor's Children; there were already Imperial forces at Murder.

The Imperium lacks reliable FTL communications other than astropathy; contraexamples are extremely rare, such as Aleema's(sp) Diamonds in Dark Heresy 2nd Edition Enemies WIthout, or the Sotha device in Unremembered Empire, and all examples I know of are not of human manufacture.

In system journeys after exiting the warp

If 40k ships are so fast, why does it take military vessels anywhere between days to months to reach a system when coming out of the warp? Are the guard and space marines just being fuel efficient, or are the high fractions of C speeds an outlier when looking at 40k fleets as a whole?

It's usually days or so, sometimes less. I'm unaware of any incidents of 'months' but no doubt that would indicate an outlier; the majority of examples are days or fractions of a day. A sublight journey from say, Pluto, or the Heliopause, to Earth, could well be days.

Take a look at Relativistic Starship Calculator and plug appropriate figures in.

For instance, a journey of 40 AU (Approx. Pluto to Earth - remember, Earth will not always be on the same side of the sun as Pluto) takes 0.88 days as viwed from earth and reaches 49% of C at the mid-point of the trip before the ship reverses to slow down.

The idea that 40k starships can hit appreciable fractions of lightspeed, such as the infamous Campanile which rammed an orbital plate over Calth, and that it takes them days to reach the Mandeville point on the edge of the star system, which may be much further than 40 AU, is not contradictory, at all.

Our hypothetical 450 G ship takes 1.64 days to reach earth from the Sol system heliopase, for instance, and hits 0.72 C at the midpoint of the trip.

Run the numbers for things like this before saying things contradict, please. Show your working when you do. With tools like these available online you don't need to know how to do the math yourself, there's no excuse.

[Sea Skimmer]

I'm not so sure of that. Star Wars has compact artificially intelligence computers to the point where people talk about tramp freighter computers as though they were sentient. It could well be that ECCM is alive and well and everyone is constantly trying to negate enemy electronic warfare electronically, but that this part of the 'battle' is almost entirely delegated to computerized systems which are self-aware enough to do it without close human supervision.

That would actually make the situation make even less sense. Remember in ROTJ somehow hitting a single switch causes a speeder bike to jam other friendly speeder bikes. What the hell kind of AI system would do that without prompting?

Also if they had a ready way of doing things electronically, they'd then also want to constantly engineer new hardware, and deploy ever more elaborate antennas to do so. Not really seeing much (as in we all know its zero) to suggest anything like that is going on. The best ECCM always ends up being hardware is the reality. Electronic methods are a way to exploit your hardware. it seems far more likely that they are stuck in the situation the world was in during the early 1950s when jamming largely just could blank out systems. And since they are using scibabble crap anyway we have no reason to assume they can't get stuck in that kind of situation.

[Elheru Aran]

It's possible that the switch on the speeder bike simply caused some kind of feedback thanks to being in motion during a high speed chase which would have prevented legible messages being broadcast. Not quite 'jamming' in the usual sense, but still effective. But who knows.

As observed previously, it's only around a 5-year period from ANH to ROTJ. Would significant changes in electronic technology really be all that apparent from point A to B on that timeline? WWII ships didn't look *very* different in 1945 versus 1941, after all.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm not so sure of that. Star Wars has compact artificially intelligence computers to the point where people talk about tramp freighter computers as though they were sentient. It could well be that ECCM is alive and well and everyone is constantly trying to negate enemy electronic warfare electronically, but that this part of the 'battle' is almost entirely delegated to computerized systems which are self-aware enough to do it without close human supervision.

That would actually make the situation make even less sense. Remember in ROTJ somehow hitting a single switch causes a speeder bike to jam other friendly speeder bikes. What the hell kind of AI system would do that without prompting?

An AI wouldn't, as a rule- but you'll note I was talking about the counter-countermeasures, and also in the context of space warfare where vehicle sizes make a droid brain a bit less of a volume issue. You could fit a computer the size of a droid's head on a speeder bike, but it would probably take up volume comparable to the entire rest of the bike's comm suite and be useful only for electronic warfare.

Whereas the jammer mode could be a fairly straightforward adaptation of the existing transmitter if you put enough power into it, for all I know.

Also if they had a ready way of doing things electronically, they'd then also want to constantly engineer new hardware, and deploy ever more elaborate antennas to do so. Not really seeing much (as in we all know its zero) to suggest anything like that is going on. The best ECCM always ends up being hardware is the reality. Electronic methods are a way to exploit your hardware. it seems far more likely that they are stuck in the situation the world was in during the early 1950s when jamming largely just could blank out systems. And since they are using scibabble crap anyway we have no reason to assume they can't get stuck in that kind of situation.

It's credible, but they have immense processing power and it's not credible that they're all too stupid to try and use it.

I'm imagining a scenario where the hardware limitations are profound (Star Wars technology doesn't change rapidly), and the software responses to jamming are as good as anyone can make them- but where jamming IS as you say inherently very effective, so that while droid brains can sometimes counter the jamming, they can't always do so. And for all intents and purposes the merely human operators just give up trying to do anything about enemy ECM themselves; either the droids can cope or they can't. If they can't there's nothing for it except to blow up the jammer.

[Purple]

Given that those seemed to be patrol/recon units jamming equipment might well be standard. That way if you are spotted on patrol by the enemy you can jam their communications and prevent them from calling reinforcements long enough for you to either kill them or flee.