What Is Being Read

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Guardsman Bass
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Re: What Is Being Read

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Simon_Jester wrote: Could you expand on that?

I mean, the immense fraud associated with the long-distance railroad boom of the 1860s and '70s was definitely a big stain and a waste of resources. That I agree with- although this was the beginning of the Gilded Age; it was hard to find anyone capable of bankrolling large industrial concerns who didn't have some degree of corruption or disarray in their finances. Still, the transcontinental railroad attracted worse investors than most.

But what's the argument for the decision to have transcontinental railroads being a bad one in the first place? The rapid expansion of the rail network played a major role in turning the American West from a wild and largely empty territory into a substantially contributing economic asset. Is the argument that this rail expansion should have occurred more 'organically?' Or what?
It's a little hard to summarize the book considering how much ground it covers, but

1. The transcontinental railroads were unnecessary. None of them paid for themselves without crazy financial schemes involving subsidies and land grants until very late in the 19th century*, and there was an enormous amount of corruption involved in just getting the traffic they had. For example, White points out that for decades, the owners of the Central Pacific actually bribed the primary Mail Steamer company (which had the contract for delivering US mail at the time) to not compete or solicit additional West Coast traffic. Why? Because it was not only much cheaper to send goods/mail by steamship down to Panama, across the isthmus by a railroad down there, and then up to the East Coast by another steamship - it was actually faster than sending it over land by the railroads.

* A lot of the transcontinental railroads constructed in the 1860s and 1870s were so shoddy they had to be re-built again.

2. The case for the social benefits of doing a massive transcontinental build-out on subsidies isn't there either. White specifically brings up the case example of North Dakota vs South Dakota, where North Dakota had the heavily subsidized/land grant approach to railroad building while South Dakota didn't and had a gradual build-out of existing railroads along with expanding farms/towns. South Dakota not only had better run railroad access as a result, it had better and more solid economic development.

In other words, better railroad development probably would have happened anyways, along with better economic development without the giant federal railroad subsidy. Incalculably huge amounts of investment capital would not have been sunk into the fraudulent bonds and stocks of big railroad companies and the "construction companies" created to leach money off them (like Credit Mobilier). The only reason to build a transcontinental railroad at all with federal support besides easement/right-of-way access in that time period would be if they needed one for military reasons, and they could have the Army Corps of Engineers build such a road like they did in the Civil War (and then allow some traffic across it to defer costs).

Sorry, this is taking the "Reading" thread off-course, and I'm not even slightly doing White's argument and book justice. I strongly recommend you read it.
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Re: What Is Being Read

Post by Simon_Jester »

On a pure side note, I personally find it tricky to participate in a reading thread where detailed discussion of what is being read is discouraged. It's probably a rule that's for the best if we agree on it, but it can be disconcerting.

Currently reading Dreams of Iron and Steel, a book about several major 19th century construction projects, including some less-famous ones like the London sewers. If you think 'these roads before they were made' were grounds to throw up your hands and bless the person responsible for upgrading them, just imagine what London was like in the 1840s and '50s after a massive population boom but with essentially no functioning sewer infrastructure.
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Re: What Is Being Read

Post by Eleventh Century Remnant »

More information is cool; I certainly didn't know it was that bad- don't all railways require more or less regular re-laying of trackbed, replacement of sleepers and rails, etc? Complete back to scratch, do it all again is...ouch.

I do take the point about organic approach in the Dakotas, though. Worth reading, you say? Right, it's always good to be less wrong. (I had to do a module on the gilded age at uni, and the core texts were so deathly dull they left me with a permanent blind spot there.)


On Monsarrat, perhaps it's just me but I think his 'Three Corvettes' is actually better, both more autobiographical and rather more real, less punched up for dramatic purposes, and includes much more of the lower deck, and mercifully less junior- to- god- only- through- seniority, captain's eye view.


Re-reading Lois McMaster Bujold, and wondering whether to go any further in the series; I do not actually like Miles Vorkosigan- jammy, spammy, fluky little shit that he is- I do much prefer the first two that are about his parents. They are again, back to intrigue; but they do a close up, intricate job of portraying the human cost of it, of the twisted minds and broken spirits that a culture of deceit and backstabbing leaves in it's wake.

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Re: What Is Being Read

Post by Simon_Jester »

Eleventh Century Remnant wrote:More information is cool; I certainly didn't know it was that bad- don't all railways require more or less regular re-laying of trackbed, replacement of sleepers and rails, etc? Complete back to scratch, do it all again is...ouch.

I do take the point about organic approach in the Dakotas, though. Worth reading, you say? Right, it's always good to be less wrong. (I had to do a module on the gilded age at uni, and the core texts were so deathly dull they left me with a permanent blind spot there.)
Let's just say I'm a bit suspicious; it may be this one guy's magnum opus but I'd want to know what a wide variety of scholars have to say.

Also, just a thought on his methodology- it's very easy to do a calculation like "did this railroad pay for itself." From what I recall, I think that the end conclusion of that kind of logic was that virtually all 19th century railroads were a waste of money. It doesn't follow that the 19th century would have gone much the same, and attained the same overall level of economic development, without the railroads being built at all.

I mean, electrical power companies make money, but they don't exactly make money hand over fist. That doesn't mean that electrical power isn't an important part of our economy. Or that we'd be in the same position and (almost) just as well off without it.




On Monsarrat, perhaps it's just me but I think his 'Three Corvettes' is actually better, both more autobiographical and rather more real, less punched up for dramatic purposes, and includes much more of the lower deck, and mercifully less junior- to- god- only- through- seniority, captain's eye view.


Re-reading Lois McMaster Bujold, and wondering whether to go any further in the series; I do not actually like Miles Vorkosigan- jammy, spammy, fluky little shit that he is- I do much prefer the first two that are about his parents. They are again, back to intrigue; but they do a close up, intricate job of portraying the human cost of it, of the twisted minds and broken spirits that a culture of deceit and backstabbing leaves in it's wake.

"Now at last I understand why there have been so many madmen in Barrayaran history. They are not its cause, they are its effect."[/quote]
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Re: What Is Being Read

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Simon_Jester wrote:If you think 'these roads before they were made' were grounds to throw up your hands and bless the person responsible for upgrading them, just imagine what London was like in the 1840s and '50s after a massive population boom but with essentially no functioning sewer infrastructure.
Reminds me of Ghost Map's description of London's sanitation in the period leading up to when they figured out how Cholera spread in the 1850s.
Simon_Jester wrote:Also, just a thought on his methodology- it's very easy to do a calculation like "did this railroad pay for itself." From what I recall, I think that the end conclusion of that kind of logic was that virtually all 19th century railroads were a waste of money. It doesn't follow that the 19th century would have gone much the same, and attained the same overall level of economic development, without the railroads being built at all.
Like I said, I think he presents a pretty convincing case for the federal government to not subsidize transcontinental railroads aside from easement/right-of-way rights, including the economic effects of the roads. That's partially why he brings up the Dakotas case, in order to address the "well, it may have been horrifically corrupt and wasteful, but it was worth it in the end because we got transcontinental railroads, right?" point. But ultimately I recommend reading the book - I can't really do it justice here.

I'd add that it's also not a bad book if you want to get a view of what the economy was like in the second half of the 19th century US in general. It's sort of like how Rich People's Movements gives you a very good but short view of what economic conditions in the US were like for the average person just before the 16th Amendment was passed in 1913, in the process of telling you about the periodic waves of rich people-led anti-income tax movements.
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Re: What Is Being Read

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Currently reading Neil Gaiman's new short story collection. It's quite lovely (unsurprisingly).

Also read some new WH40K books and novellas, far from impressed and I dropped half midway through.
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Re: What Is Being Read

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Midnight in Peking by Paul French, a gripping account of an infamous murder of a young woman in 1937 and the subsequent investigation, just before the Japanese take over Peking.
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Re: What Is Being Read

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I picked up a book today called Half a King, about a disabled young prince, studying to be a priest/healer suddenly has kingship of a pseudo-viking people thrust upon him. It's got a strong scent of Tyrion Lannister on it, but I'm quite enjoying it so far. It earned a lot of marks for what it hasn't done - it's not a pity party, despite how much all the strong chain-wearing warriors look down on the cripple.

It's not going to change my life or anything, but I'm glad I took the chance on a cheap book.
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Re: What Is Being Read

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Sinewmire wrote:I picked up a book today called Half a King, about a disabled young prince, studying to be a priest/healer suddenly has kingship of a pseudo-viking people thrust upon him. It's got a strong scent of Tyrion Lannister on it, but I'm quite enjoying it so far. It earned a lot of marks for what it hasn't done - it's not a pity party, despite how much all the strong chain-wearing warriors look down on the cripple.

It's not going to change my life or anything, but I'm glad I took the chance on a cheap book.
It's a very nicw book - Abercrombie has some good stuff. I just picked up the sequel, "Half the World".
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Re: What Is Being Read

Post by Enigma »

I finished the first omnibus of Elizabeth Moon's Serrano Legacy and I pretty much enjoyed it. Her first book dragged on and on but she picked up the pace with the other two novels.

This week I finished reading a ST: TOS book written by Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens called Star Trek: Federation. It came out back in 1994 and man is it ever a wankfest of E-nil and E-D's capabilities. You think that Voyager's "crack in the event horizon" was bad, both E-Nil and E-D actually went into the singularity along with a TOS shuttle. It wasn't your average black hole either. This one had a triple singularity core. Then there's the bit where the E-D decapitates a Romulan D'direx (sp?) by ramming it.

Horrible crap.
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Re: What Is Being Read

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The historical but highly debatable Ivar the Boneless got his nickname in one of three ways; either he was actually disabled in some way, possibly he was double jointed- or, and given his behaviour possibly most likely, he was very good at taking other people's bones away from them by smashing them to bits.

Finally finished the Chronicles of the Black Company omnibus, and I have to admit to being underwhelmed by the ending. After all of that, it was a jarring shift of tone not to have everything end in a much darker and more terrible way.

To make up for that, just started in on a classic- Simplicissimus, Grimmelshausen. In a way an object lesson; it was a desperately superstitious and death- conscious age, and that produced shedloads of mysticism, crackpots, belief in real and actual magic intruding on the world- I think we have forgotten just how confused it is possible for the premodern to be. Especially when the world really does seem to be coming apart and the viewpoint characters are surrounded by brutality, desperation, chaos and mystic loonies.
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Re: What Is Being Read

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So the most recent book I've finished is Shadow Of Saganami one of the later honorverse books by David Weber and the start of a new subseries. It bills itself as an adventure of midshipmen on their first cruise, saddled with a war traumatised and possible unreliable Captain. And if the book was actually about that it'd be quite good. But its 600 page run is bogged down in the tales of its villains and politicians who are frankling not that interesting. So that what you see of the crew of the HMS Hexapuma feel fragmented. It's not really that different from Weber's other books. But this is twice as long again as On Bassalisk station and probably only contains as much about its ostensibly main ship/crew. Even the title promises more than it deleivers; a tale about struggling to live up to the RMN's traditions. But I could be overthinking it.

And to follow my pattern of mediocre sci-fi, the next two novels I purchased (from a charity shop) were shatner verse Star Trek novels. Spectre and Preserver, which I only realised after I got them home were 1 and 3 of a trilogy. Any at the moment, Kirk is facing the fact that he ruined the Mirror universe and the Enterprise E has been hi-jacked by a mirror Voyager. It's not bad and Shatner, or more likely his co-authors the Reeves-Stevens have a good head for Trek minutia but it's still ultimately Kirk fanfic. I don't think its good but I remind strangely curious about it. And hey, it was for charity...
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Re: What Is Being Read

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Crazedwraith wrote:So the most recent book I've finished is Shadow Of Saganami one of the later honorverse books by David Weber and the start of a new subseries. It bills itself as an adventure of midshipmen on their first cruise, saddled with a war traumatised and possible unreliable Captain. And if the book was actually about that it'd be quite good. But its 600 page run is bogged down in the tales of its villains and politicians who are frankling not that interesting. So that what you see of the crew of the HMS Hexapuma feel fragmented. It's not really that different from Weber's other books. But this is twice as long again as On Bassalisk station and probably only contains as much about its ostensibly main ship/crew. Even the title promises more than it deleivers; a tale about struggling to live up to the RMN's traditions. But I could be overthinking it.

And to follow my pattern of mediocre sci-fi, the next two novels I purchased (from a charity shop) were shatner verse Star Trek novels. Spectre and Preserver, which I only realised after I got them home were 1 and 3 of a trilogy. Any at the moment, Kirk is facing the fact that he ruined the Mirror universe and the Enterprise E has been hi-jacked by a mirror Voyager. It's not bad and Shatner, or more likely his co-authors the Reeves-Stevens have a good head for Trek minutia but it's still ultimately Kirk fanfic. I don't think its good but I remind strangely curious about it. And hey, it was for charity...
[points] ha ha!

Seriously though, Shatnerverse Mirror Picard was awesome, as was the whole plan from Spectre. I also loved the idea of a convention for people catapulted a hundred years into the future. The middle book, Dark Victory, was extremely forgettable, mostly buildup to when they unfreeze Mirror Kirk, whom they call Tiberius to distinguish him. This is treated pretty much as a semi-apocalyptic event and why not? Tiberius has plot shields every bit as strong as Kirk.

The whole Teilani and Chal sublot makes a lot more sense if you read the prequels Ashes of Eden and Avenger (Avenger was actually a really good book).

What I like best about the books though, is in the third when they reveal the point of divergence between the Mirror and Canon realities. So much better than what we wound up getting with Enterprise.
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That right there perfectly explains the difference between a benevolent Federation and a heavily militarized Terran Empire, they were arming up desperately for the fight to come. Well, according to Mirror Spock the Terran Empire encountered and genocided the Borg relatively early in their history. Before his time, anyway.
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Re: What Is Being Read

Post by Enigma »

I've read Paul Di Filipo's Wikiworld and it overall sucked. Many of his short stories contained either words that haven't been used since the 1800's or is completely fabricated. I don't mind it being used sporadically but heavily used? GAHHH!

I've also finished reading John Scalzi's Old Man's War and I found it very good. I also learned online that there is plans to adapted to a T.V. movie?

Right now, I'm reading the sequel, "The Ghost Brigades". Looking good.
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Re: What Is Being Read

Post by Enigma »

Oh yeah, I've also read Jack McDevitt's A Talent for War. I enjoyed it but found it predictable as to how Alex Benedict gets into trouble. You'd think he'd stay away from skimmers. lol.
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Re: What Is Being Read

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Ahriman238 wrote: [points] ha ha!
Your sympathy is noted, friend. :-|

I have the Star Trek Odyessy omnibus of the first three but its been ages since I read them. So I'd probably forgotten a lot of the finer details there such as they were. Especially of the third book.
What I like best about the books though, is in the third when they reveal the point of divergence between the Mirror and Canon realities. So much better than what we wound up getting with Enterprise.
Yeah, I've read some of the build up to that. One hand tying in TNG events like that is cool, on the other it introduced some inconsistencies for me. Like how the Mirror verse is much less advanced in most respects. Yet discovered and wiped out the borg way before the real verse met them. (and never did wipe them out, depending on how you interpret Voyager's finale)

Got Dark Victory from Amazon yesterday and just finished it. It starts off strong, finishing up the cliffhanger at the end of the first book with lots of energy but after that. Eh. It really plays up the 'rebel' aspect of Kirk and that's not great. The introduction of the starfleet anti-mirror universe conspiracy comes off as bizarre to me in some places, And Picard suddenly comes off as a prick, when he was genuinely friendly in previous books. (though to be fair the book does acknowledge Picard is being out-of-character)

Interesting in seeing if it all ties up satisfactorily in Preserver. But I think I'll take a break before tackling it. I feel the need to read some works of the departed Master. Guards!Guards! perhaps. Or The Dark Side Of The Sun.
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Re: What Is Being Read

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Much of what I have been reading of late is simply not science fiction, and is in fact only tangentially related; most interesting bit has been Gordon Corrigan's book on the Indian Army in France, and the original book written by Gen. James Willcocks, commander of the Corps, that he draws heavily on.

Contains much colonial, patriarchal and imperialistic politics, so not really recommendable on SDN, but fascinating reading; particularly in how the men of the Indian Army reacted to Europe and Britain. (Amongst other things, many of them, remember these are soldiers of the Raj, resented the Corps' departure for the middle east- they felt that they were leaving a job undone.) This is culture shock in action, and worth it on those grounds.
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Re: What Is Being Read

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Hm, not much happening recently; on with the show anyway.

That thing Stas was on about a while ago, Three Body Problem, Liu Cixin? Half way through and not actually enjoying it much. It is based on the premise, what If everything is uncertain? Everything you know is not necessarily wrong, but definitely negotiable.

Maybe it's a culture gap, but not much of it is coming through; the framework is so uncertain as well I don't trust any of the characters, and it begins with the murder of a physicist for politically incorrect mathematics, which really sends the wrong message.

That, Alexis Gilliland's Rosinante trilogy about renegade space habitats, Mexican USA and computer designed space religion; desperately needed a better editor, quite hard to follow at times, partly because he keeps glossing details of his own plot to get to the engineering, which is left completely without context.

Neal Asher's Prador series, which features a plot from the fifties written in the modern style.

Couldn't really recommend any of them.
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Re: What Is Being Read

Post by Elheru Aran »

God's Demon, by Wayne Barlowe. Pretty cool depiction of Hell and the intrigues therein. Really wish he'd written the projected next two books. And that the art-work that accompanies them wasn't so bloody expensive. "Barlowe's Inferno" is something like $130 even used...
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Re: What Is Being Read

Post by K. A. Pital »

Eleventh Century Remnant wrote:Maybe it's a culture gap, but not much of it is coming through; the framework is so uncertain as well I don't trust any of the characters, and it begins with the murder of a physicist for politically incorrect mathematics, which really sends the wrong message.
I think that the first part is definetely confusing, but towards the end there's nothing left unclear. I find books without clear heroes and villains more enjoyable than other ones, and the killing of people for politically incorrect science is a part of history that we can't do away with. Maybe you're right about the culture gap though - I find the book much closer to me than most Western literature.

As of now, I'm reading the Expanse series... and while it is a good "hard" space opera (well, as hard as this genre can be, I guess), I find it a bit too shallow for my taste.
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Re: What Is Being Read

Post by cosmicalstorm »

I am rereading Evolution by Stephen Baxter for the fourth time. The first chapters are beautiful in their vivid description of past biological eras and the speculative glimpse into the minds of those who inhabited them. I can only think of Carl Sagans book Shadow of Our Forgotten Ancestors as something approaching Evolutions writing style.

Has anyone read Evolution by Baxter and found it similar to some other book? I would very much like recommendations on other similar stuff.
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Re: What Is Being Read

Post by Ahriman238 »

Kind of a fantasy kick right now. After reading Brandon Sanderson' Mistborn trilogy (which I highly recommend) I just finished the sequel, Alloy of Law, which is even better, if only for the Wax and Wayne dynamic. I also love that they're playing for lesser stakes than the fate of the world/civilization at this point.

And holy crap-
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Marsh is still alive?!? The kandra are back? The koloss survived the remaking of the world? And there are human-koloss hybrids? How? Why?

Sazed is making a fine god, he even talks to his followers occasionally. I suspect the earring is to allow this, same as Ruin needed people to be pierced with metal to hear his voice.

I love that Spook's incomprehensible Eastern Dominance street slang is now "High Imperial" and spoken by high officials.
I also got the World of Ice and Fire as a gift, and I'm paging through when I have the time. Right now I'm on Jaehearys I. And I'm reading A Shadow in Summer, very novel magic system, but I'm having trouble getting into the characters. Except Seedless, who is a magnificent troll.
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Re: What Is Being Read

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Just read Libriomancer, a bit into the sequel. Wizards too weak or unskilled for conventional magic, but who can pull items, real and fake, magic or high technology out of books and use them according to the rules of the story.

Well, it's a little more complicated. There are a lot of limitations to how often they can do this, only things that can fit through the book, they can get some information this way but not other, some effects (like time-travel) are too energy intensive etc. Sapience can't cross over without becoming unhinged. Oh, and books can be "locked" to prevent Libriomancy, which was immediately applied to all Scripture of every faith. And the Book of Swords, the Lord of the Rings, and any story with a world-ending pandemic. Good read, actually felt a lot like Jim Butcher, but lighter.
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Re: What Is Being Read

Post by Beowulf »

I finished reading Three Body Problem, and I'm a bit underwhelmed. The first 1/2 to 2/3 of the book were fairly interesting... but the second half kinda falls flat in my mind.
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Spice Runner
Jedi Knight
Posts: 764
Joined: 2004-07-10 05:40pm
Location: At a space station near you

Re: What Is Being Read

Post by Spice Runner »

I'm currently reading Polaris by Jack McDevitt. A good old mystery story in a far future setting.
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