First plot information from the Terminator Reboot

[Joun_Lord]

M4 looking guns.

Minor pedantry, but I will point out that "M4 looking guns" have been around since the 1960s. While the actual M4 carbine didn't enter US military service until the mid-90s, other similar-looking short-barrel variants of the AR-15 have been commonly available and in US military service since Vietnam. I didn't see the rack of guns you're talking about, but chances are if you see "M4 looking guns" prior to the mid-90s, it's an XM177E2.

True though I was meaning more the railed handguard, flat top upper derivatives that are in use today and as seemed to be in the trailer. Though that point of contention on my part is probably pointless if others in this thread are correct and they time travel to present day.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Why is the film being full of M4's M16's a bad thing exactly? It's a very common gun in the time the film is apparently set, so it's logical they those guns would appear, rather than more uncommon and eclectic guns might.

[Joun_Lord]

Why is the film being full of M4's M16's a bad thing exactly? It's a very common gun in the time the film is apparently set, so it's logical they those guns would appear, rather than more uncommon and eclectic guns might.

If the movie is set in 1984 like the original then M4s are anachronistic as they weren't made until a decade later and flat top Picatinny railed models shortly after that. They just weren't made yet, there are more time appropriate weapons like the CAR-15 available. It would be like a Zune and Windows 7 appearing in a remake of the movie Hackers still set in 1995 rather then the more period appropriate Walkman and Windows 95.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Thats a big "if" right there. Please note that I said M4/M16, and the latter were definitely around in that period. Or I coudl simply have said AR-15 clones or derivatives.

[Joun_Lord]

Thats a big "if" right there. Please note that I said M4/M16, and the latter were definitely around in that period. Or I coudl simply have said AR-15 clones or derivatives.

Yes M16s and AR-15 clones were around during that period. M16A1s were actually used in The Terminator by the cops during the police station shoot-out (to little effect) and Colt Commando Car-15s were used during T-2 (which were most likely converted civie Sporter carbines).

However flat top upper receiver, railed handguard AR-15 M4 looking clones were definitely not around in 84.

[FedRebel]

^ that scene could be after they jump to "Present Day" San Fransisco.

Looking through the trailer, the movie seems to go....

1. Orbital view of Judgement Day (likely with V/O exposition, like T2)
2. 2029, Conner's speech, and final battle to SkyNet's mainframe and TDE.
3. T1 redux, "Papa"/Uncle Bob 2.0 takes out the 'original' Terminator, Sarah saves Reese from the T-1000.
4. Sarah gives exposition with flashback and reveals plan to use the Ghetto TDE to jump to "Present Day" San Fran and stop SkyNet
5. "Profit!"

Since this is supposed to start a new series, brace for Sequel hook.

[Elheru Aran]

Here's a random thought.

Since the first Terminator movie, the difference between the starved Resistance fighters and the bulky bodybuilder-types playing the Terminators has been pronounced.

Then here comes Jai Courtney, looking pretty robust for a starving Resistance fighter. The other guys with him don't exactly look like they're hurting for chow, either.

So here's a WAG for the day:

The Resistance in the new future-timeline that he comes from decided to try and counter Terminators by amping up some of their soldiers with... genetic therapy, steroids, what have you. The how doesn't matter too much. So these guys are, for lack of a better word, 'elite forces' or something, on the frontlines of the fighting.

Skynet notices this and decides to make Terminators that fit the general physical profile of these new buffed-up soldiers. Hence, Arnold, Lou Ferrigno, and whoever else that was in the first movie.

Thoughts?

[FedRebel]

I figured Bodybuilder look on T-800's where out of practiality, to hide the endoskeleton convincingly.

A Topher Grace Terminator wouldn't work because one could see the pistons moving under the scrawny arms, then there's the collar/neck region, it'd look completely "wrong" on a scrawny flesh suit.

As far as Reese, was it ever explicitly stated that the soldiers were malnourished? In real life total war the soldiers are among the last to starve, food, etc. would be given to them as a priority. And given that TechCom is fighting against killer robots, they'd need to be well fed and constantly trained (hence being muscle men with six packs) as that'd be the only way they could stand the remotest chance of winning.

I'd be partial to the idea of Conner pushing steroids on his men, it's a desperate situation and humanity needs every marginal edge it can muster regardless of morality, to win.

[Elheru Aran]

It wasn't necessarily explicitly stated, no. They don't really look all that buff compared to Arnold-type Terminators, though, at least in the short glimpses we get in the Resistance fight scenes and in Terminator Salvation.

I can gladly accept that Reese may have gotten the short end of the stick if his history was anything like what was depicted in Terminator Salvation (vagrant boy making ends meet, likely starving).

We know Skynet has the technology to miniaturize if need be, with the T-1000 and T-X as proof. They have the ability to create scrawny Terminators, and frankly the only reason the T-800 exoskeleton was that bulky was because it was made to fit Arnold's shape.

It's a minor detail that's always bugged me, that's all...

[Borgholio]

I forgot what model Cameron's model was in Sarah Connor Chronicles, but the actress is a beanpole (I met her in person once...very tall and very skinny). So obviously they can come in multiple shapes and sizes.

[Zaune]

That plot summary sounds like a mediocre fanfic.

[Zinegata]

The bloody franchise needed to die a dignified death at Terminator 2, but as my friend said they're probably going to keep this franchise going even after Arnold croaks.

[The Romulan Republic]

The bloody franchise needed to die a dignified death at Terminator 2, but as my friend said they're probably going to keep this franchise going even after Arnold croaks.

The idea that their is a maximum number of good movies you can make in a franchise is not one I agree with. A sequel always can be good. And there is never a clear-cut end because reality never has a clear-cut end. The only question is weather the filmmakers have the talent and resources to pull it off. These ones probably don't have the talent from what I've seen.

[Grumman]

The bloody franchise needed to die a dignified death at Terminator 2, but as my friend said they're probably going to keep this franchise going even after Arnold croaks.

The idea that their is a maximum number of good movies you can make in a franchise is not one I agree with. A sequel always can be good. And there is never a clear-cut end because reality never has a clear-cut end. The only question is weather the filmmakers have the talent and resources to pull it off. These ones probably don't have the talent from what I've seen.

It depends on the franchise. For this one, I'd say there is a limit: The Terminator, Terminator 2, and a movie set after Judgement Day either before the T1 changes (the one where Skynet is developed from scratch and sends back a T-800 and the Resistance sends back Kyle Reece) or before the T2 changes (the one where Skynet is developed from the arm and chip and sends back the T-1000 and the Resistance sends back a T-800).

This is a franchise that does have a clear-cut beginning - the point at which the Terminator first arrives in the past - and a clear-cut end - the point at which Skynet and the Resistance send their agents back in time in the first two timelines, and the point where Judgement Day has been averted in the third. Everything outside those brackets is either irrelevant or normal historical fiction.

[The Romulan Republic]

The bloody franchise needed to die a dignified death at Terminator 2, but as my friend said they're probably going to keep this franchise going even after Arnold croaks.

The idea that their is a maximum number of good movies you can make in a franchise is not one I agree with. A sequel always can be good. And there is never a clear-cut end because reality never has a clear-cut end. The only question is weather the filmmakers have the talent and resources to pull it off. These ones probably don't have the talent from what I've seen.

It depends on the franchise. For this one, I'd say there is a limit: The Terminator, Terminator 2, and a movie set after Judgement Day either before the T1 changes (the one where Skynet is developed from scratch and sends back a T-800 and the Resistance sends back Kyle Reece) or before the T2 changes (the one where Skynet is developed from the arm and chip and sends back the T-1000 and the Resistance sends back a T-800).

This is a franchise that does have a clear-cut beginning - the point at which the Terminator first arrives in the past - and a clear-cut end - the point at which Skynet and the Resistance send their agents back in time in the first two timelines, and the point where Judgement Day has been averted in the third. Everything outside those brackets is either irrelevant or normal historical fiction.

The idea that the end of the war which changed as the time line was altered is a clear-cut end is silly.

Edit: And in any case, they could do something set in the world after the war is over.

[Grumman]

The idea that the end of the war which changed as the time line was altered is a clear-cut end is silly.

Edit: And in any case, they could do something set in the world after the war is over.

Nothing after that point matters. It is a timeline that no longer exists, beyond the point where it no longer has any effect on the final timeline. It matters that in the post-T1 timeline Skynet developed the T-1000, because Skynet sending the T-1000 and the Resistance sending the T-800 caused the events that shaped the post-T2 timeline. If the entire human race had committed ritual suicide after the Terminators went back it wouldn't matter, because it would just be retconned out of existence without affecting anything.

If you are going to use the reset button, you need to work twice as hard to make the audience care about what's happening. It needs to still be important that things happened after you press the reset button or you're just writing filler.

[Irbis]

I wonder how old Arnie expects to stop young Arnie with small shotgun. Weren't these totally ineffective?

Anyway:

[Joun_Lord]

I wonder how old Arnie expects to stop young Arnie with small shotgun. Weren't these totally ineffective?

Could be doing like TSCC and using some armor piercing rounds to try to hit a weak point. Even if they didn't exist at the time I'm sure with some future knowledge he could whip up some anti-Termie rounds. Or else knock him down like Kyle did in the original and use his Eldernator knowledge to pop his chip and disable him completely before he can get back up.

[Gaidin]

Arnie with "small shotgun" has had years to prep for 1984 Terminator("I've been waiting for you"). Hell, even sabot rounds would've been better than the buckshot rounds that are probably all Reese could've found commonly in Los Angeles with the time he had (a few hours to arm and find Sarah Connor). You really think he couldn't have come up with something capable of stopping that thing when he knows its(his own) weaknesses?

[Irbis]

Arnie with "small shotgun"

Just look at it. It's tiny toy compared to one Arnold used in T1, both in size and calibre.

has had years to prep for 1984 Terminator("I've been waiting for you"). Hell, even sabot rounds would've been better than the buckshot rounds that are probably all Reese could've found commonly in Los Angeles with the time he had (a few hours to arm and find Sarah Connor).

Small problem here. Sabot-type shotgun slugs IIRC started appearing in civilian stores in late 80s, post movie date. But even assuming he can make some, Terminators are armoured to withstand plasma gun combat. The one in T1 took 2 full bursts from M-16 from point blank range in Police Station scene and didn't even flinch or treat the attack seriously. Shotgun isn't going to do much better than that.

You really think he couldn't have come up with something capable of stopping that thing when he knows its(his own) weaknesses?

And what makes you think he knows his own weaknesses? Terminators weren't made to fight other Terminators, would he even have that data? The one in T1 tried to buy plasma gun in 80s gun store, he lacked knowledge critical to fulfilling his mission!

Yes, I guess resistance could have provided him with their findings but how applicable to civilian weapons from 80s they would be? I don't think any of it would be of use.

Could be doing like TSCC and using some armor piercing rounds to try to hit a weak point. Even if they didn't exist at the time I'm sure with some future knowledge he could whip up some anti-Termie rounds. Or else knock him down like Kyle did in the original and use his Eldernator knowledge to pop his chip and disable him completely before he can get back up.

Ok. But in that case, why not make better gun as well? One of these plasma toys? Or use something like .50 sniper rifle with real AP bullets to headshot him from safe distance if he can't?

I feel T1 Terminator is going to be Worfed big time

[Gaidin]

I'm really indifferent where he gets it or if he makes it himself. I can play the batman prep time card here for all I care. He's had time to train kiddie Sarah Connor how to fight for god's sake. You think he there's no way he can't possibly come up with something or some source even if it's black market or not? As for his own weaknesses, I really care not where he gets them. Yes, we'll run with your solution if you insist. Whatever.

[Joun_Lord]

Ok. But in that case, why not make better gun as well? One of these plasma toys? Or use something like .50 sniper rifle with real AP bullets to headshot him from safe distance if he can't?

I feel T1 Terminator is going to be Worfed big time

Loading your own ammo with its own special sauce is something pretty simple if you know what you are doing. Making new guns, especially high tech guns that would only exist in the future after everything went all blue screen is probably near impossible with 80s tech.

It looks like Sarah has a Barrett M82 in the van with her so he atleast had access to one but for whatever reason thought going close in was a better option, though I guess Sarah could have called dibs on it leaving the Oldenator shit out of luck.

Most likely the reason for old Arnie fighting young Arnie is rule of cool, its much cooler Arnie blasting his younger self then sniping him from a few hundred meters away.

You are probably quite right the T1 Termie is going to be nerfed. One of my main complaints about this atrocity. He will probably show up long enough for the audience to ohh and ahh about the effects of having two Arnies and then die so we can move to the liquid metal motherfucker. That definitely should not be the fate of such an awesome and downright scary villain that the original Terminator was. He isn't A Terminator, he is THE Terminator, the original and best.

And this movie will do everything in its power to fuck him over.

[Gaidin]

Young Terminator actually has a cast instead of an uncredit so that's not something I'm willing to predict. Odds are better that the three of them might be dealing with them both due to how story structure typically ends up working with casting.

[Darth Tanner]

My thought was that destroying his younger self would be counter-productive and that the shotgun is to distract him while he closes to shut him down for reprogramming. Presuming of course that is his younger self. Alternative is the shotgun is just distraction while he closes to rip off his head like we see other Terminator vs Terminator battles focusing on.

[Beowulf]

has had years to prep for 1984 Terminator("I've been waiting for you"). Hell, even sabot rounds would've been better than the buckshot rounds that are probably all Reese could've found commonly in Los Angeles with the time he had (a few hours to arm and find Sarah Connor).

Small problem here. Sabot-type shotgun slugs IIRC started appearing in civilian stores in late 80s, post movie date. But even assuming he can make some, Terminators are armoured to withstand plasma gun combat. The one in T1 took 2 full bursts from M-16 from point blank range in Police Station scene and didn't even flinch or treat the attack seriously. Shotgun isn't going to do much better than that.

Ballistic Research Industries is now producing a 440-grain .50 caliber bullet that is loaded into a shotgun shell. Made in 12 gauge only, the BRI 12 Gauge/.500 has many advantages to offer over an ordinary shotgun slug.

The BRI projectile is better described as a bullet than a slug, since it more nearly resembles a bullet in both design and performance. The BRI bullet is encased in a two-piece plastic sleeve (sabot) that separates and falls away after firing, allowing the bullet to continue down range on its own. The sabot expands slightly under the force of firing, sealing the bore and centering the bullet precisely in the barrel. Bullet shape is critical, since it does not rotate, but is stabilized aerodynamically in flight. Wasp-waisted in shape, BRI bullets utilize air flow over their rear sections to achieve flight stability.

BRI bullets have over twice the sectional density of a typical shotgun slug. Sectional density of the BRI is .251, versus about .107 for a common slug. What this means is that the BRI will retain its velocity longer, and have more energy remaining at the target. In fact, at all ranges from zero to 300 yards, BRI bullets deliver more energy than a .45-70, .44 Remington Magnum, .300 Savage, .30 Remington or .30-30 Winchester--to name a few. A hard lead alloy is used for making BRI bullets that assures adequate penetration. The flattened conical tip of BRI bullets imparts maximum shock, yet contributes to good overall aerodynamic performance.

BRI claims 1,500 feet per second (fps) for their 12 Gauge/.500 bullet, so we decided to check this out on our own custom Chronograph Model 900. We found, however, that it was necessary to move the chronograph screens down range about 25 feet to keep the departing sabots away from the screens' sensitive areas. If the chrono intercepts a sabot, a false reading is assured. An instrumental velocity average of 1,228 fps was recorded. For comparison, a Federal slug was clocked at 1,378 fps, while a Remington stepped out at 1,420 fps. BRI makes a hotter load, for police use only, that registered 1,313 fps. When corrected for distance from the muzzle, chronographed results will not quite yield a muzzle velocity of 1,500 fps for the BRI bullet, but it is not too far off the mark.

Components (bullets, sabots and wads) are available for the handloader, so we just had to load up a few rounds to see how they worked. Since full investigation of pressures developed in the loads that were used has not been carried out, the author is reluctant to make specific recommendations of powder charges for BRI projectiles. We did, however, achieve velocities greater than those of loads without obvious signs of excess pressure.

An experienced reloader should have no difficulty loading BRI components. Loading is quite simple. A cardboard wad and a plastic gas-seal wad are used between powder and sabot. The loaded column is held in place by a roll crimp, which we applied with a Lyman crimping tool.

This article is from 1984. I think they were around soon enough for the movie.