Have mercy on a layman... B5 vs SW firepower

[Lord Revan]

ISDs aren't really glass cannons being able to take alot of punishment as well as deal it, in ROTS a Venator took a point blank broadside from the separtist ship (of similar size) and seemed to survive and ISDs are similar in terms of durability. while the Minbari War Cruisers don't seem to be able to take hits from their own weapons (at least in the episode Sheridan was introduced the goverment War Cruiser was able to cut the rear fins off its renegade counterpart with relative ease).

[Alyrium Denryle]

Well, I take my bit about Minbari warcruisers from several bits of evidence.

1) The Prometheus. One shot from a plasma cannon. Impulse shock. Bad.
2) The black star. 2 mt nukes at range. The calculations are... interesting. Direct thermal transfer from the first nuke, at approximately 800 meters if I recall, it is taking about 100 kj/cm^2 on its hull. Enough to vaporize about 35 mm of aluminium alloy armor. Even if you assume the gun ports were open and the thing is covered in windows, the localized damage done is not consistent with that. Rather, you are looking at asteroids in the immediate vicinity of the nukes doing most of the damage. They absorb much more energy, and Newton happens. It is still not a great deal of damage that really should be done however. So that thing is just not capable of standing up to a great deal of punishment.
3) I forget the episode name and number, but it is the one with the Trigati. Wherein another warcruiser has to come in and gently sheer off its engines, and does so. Yeah... they are not slugging it out ship to ship with eachother. Even EA ships display more resilience to minbari weapons than that (No Surrender, No Retreat. We see Omegas take the same beam weapon without, you know, being cut in half. They get their asses kicked, but they dont get cut in half).

ISDs slug it out with eachother. They go toe to toe like 18th century ships of the line with multi-gigaton pulsed beam weapons (what they are is basically irrelevant). To match even one turbolaser shot, the Centauri would have to hit an ISD with 400 of those asteroids on a single point on the shields. It is Just. Not. Happening.

The only thing anything in B5 could hope to do is open up a rip in space time on top of them. It is not just the energy backwash that you have to worry about at that point, but the distinct prospect that said rip in space time is very likely accompanied by distortions in space time when it opens. Distortions that I would think would be somewhat unhealthy for whatever large objects that happen to coincide with affected points. In fact, that is likely what we see in In The Beginning. The damage we see to EA ships caught in a Jump Point Trap is not what we might expect from an even distribution energy backwash. We see some of that as the point just starts to open, but after that we also see the ships being.... rent asunder. The explosions appear secondary to the ships themselves being bent and twisted.

Or at least that is what it looks like to me. Subject to confirmation bias.

[cmdrjones]

Well, I take my bit about Minbari warcruisers from several bits of evidence.

1) The Prometheus. One shot from a plasma cannon. Impulse shock. Bad.
2) The black star. 2 mt nukes at range. The calculations are... interesting. Direct thermal transfer from the first nuke, at approximately 800 meters if I recall, it is taking about 100 kj/cm^2 on its hull. Enough to vaporize about 35 mm of aluminium alloy armor. Even if you assume the gun ports were open and the thing is covered in windows, the localized damage done is not consistent with that. Rather, you are looking at asteroids in the immediate vicinity of the nukes doing most of the damage. They absorb much more energy, and Newton happens. It is still not a great deal of damage that really should be done however. So that thing is just not capable of standing up to a great deal of punishment.
3) I forget the episode name and number, but it is the one with the Trigati. Wherein another warcruiser has to come in and gently sheer off its engines, and does so. Yeah... they are not slugging it out ship to ship with eachother. Even EA ships display more resilience to minbari weapons than that (No Surrender, No Retreat. We see Omegas take the same beam weapon without, you know, being cut in half. They get their asses kicked, but they dont get cut in half).

ISDs slug it out with eachother. They go toe to toe like 18th century ships of the line with multi-gigaton pulsed beam weapons (what they are is basically irrelevant). To match even one turbolaser shot, the Centauri would have to hit an ISD with 400 of those asteroids on a single point on the shields. It is Just. Not. Happening.

The only thing anything in B5 could hope to do is open up a rip in space time on top of them. It is not just the energy backwash that you have to worry about at that point, but the distinct prospect that said rip in space time is very likely accompanied by distortions in space time when it opens. Distortions that I would think would be somewhat unhealthy for whatever large objects that happen to coincide with affected points. In fact, that is likely what we see in In The Beginning. The damage we see to EA ships caught in a Jump Point Trap is not what we might expect from an even distribution energy backwash. We see some of that as the point just starts to open, but after that we also see the ships being.... rent asunder. The explosions appear secondary to the ships themselves being bent and twisted.

Or at least that is what it looks like to me. Subject to confirmation bias.

Ah... so, if we take this as a reasonably accurate analysis, then the Centauri may TRY something like what I describe, it just may not be very effective. So, how do we reconcile the Asteroid strike in ESB? Base on what i've seen on this thread, it would have taken multiple larger (when compared to the size of the aseroids used by the Centauri) asteroid strikes to batter down the ISD Shields BEFORE the hit we see take the bridge tower out, or that the ISD was damaged from the Hoth battle OR that the damage we see isn't as great at it appears (the bug on the windshield theory) or some combination of the above. Also, as far as the STORY goes, where would the Centauri get the IDEA to use the ASteroid maneuver unless someone told them about the ISD with the bridge tower smashed? I mean, they haven't watched ESB, Right?

well, I won't give it away, but I have an interesting in-universe explanation in store.

Thanks again, and this is shaping up to be a very interesting story.

As for the Trigati, they WANTED to get killed, so, presumably they had all their ECM off and simply let the other Sharlin take a free shot at them, being that they were #1 hoping the humans would kill them all and #2 weren't willing to fire on fellow Minbari.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Ah... so, if we take this as a reasonably accurate analysis, then the Centauri may TRY something like what I describe, it just may not be very effective. So, how do we reconcile the Asteroid strike in ESB? Base on what i've seen on this thread, it would have taken multiple larger (when compared to the size of the aseroids used by the Centauri) asteroid strikes to batter down the ISD Shields BEFORE the hit we see take the bridge tower out, or that the ISD was damaged from the Hoth battle OR that the damage we see isn't as great at it appears (the bug on the windshield theory) or some combination of the above.

1) There are a lot of really really big asteroids in that field. Asteroids big enough to have sufficient gravity that people can walk on them. Turbolasers can fragment them (because they will fragment before they vaporize), but that just means lots of smaller impacts on the shields. The ISD would have been moving very very fast through a very large asteroid field. Lots and lots of impacts.

2) The asteroid that his was very large, and we have no clue how fast it was moving relative to the ISD. We see 2 vectors of motion, but the third we dont see is the important one.

3) What we see is perfectly consistent with a panic response and temporary loss of comms.

Also, as far as the STORY goes, where would the Centauri get the IDEA to use the ASteroid maneuver unless someone told them about the ISD with the bridge tower smashed? I mean, they haven't watched ESB, Right?

Simple. Their other weapons do jack shit. Even their most powerful beam weapons are at best in the high KT/sec range. Increase by 3 orders of magnitude with a single asteroid? Yes Please.

[Lord Revan]

As for the Trigati, they WANTED to get killed, so, presumably they had all their ECM off and simply let the other Sharlin take a free shot at them, being that they were #1 hoping the humans would kill them all and #2 weren't willing to fire on fellow Minbari.

well the thing you should take from that scene is that the big guns of the War Cruiser went thru all of the 3 rear fins with little effort meaning minbari rely more on not being hit then armor/shields stopping the hits

[Alyrium Denryle]

As for the Trigati, they WANTED to get killed, so, presumably they had all their ECM off and simply let the other Sharlin take a free shot at them, being that they were #1 hoping the humans would kill them all and #2 weren't willing to fire on fellow Minbari.

Sure, but you cannot turn off your armor. That is the point. When the ECM is off, they get carved up like a christmas goose. Even EA ships that have their defense grid* taken down have better defenses than that because they have slabs of armor plating with an unspecified composition all over the hulls of their ships.

*Yes, the EA at least has some sort of energy shielding. Not bubble shields mind you, but likely something like Structural Integrity Field. Some kind of electro-magnetic mumbo-jumbo that keeps the atomic bonds in the crystaline structure of whatever the fuck their armor is made of from being broken by incoming thermal transfer and particles moving at significant fractions of c

[starfury]

ISDs aren't really glass cannons being able to take alot of punishment as well as deal it, in ROTS a Venator took a point blank broadside from the separtist ship (of similar size) and seemed to survive and ISDs are similar in terms of durability. while the Minbari War Cruisers don't seem to be able to take hits from their own weapons (at least in the episode Sheridan was introduced the goverment War Cruiser was able to cut the rear fins off its renegade counterpart with relative ease).

B5 heavy ships Weapons tend to massive spinal mounts, sharlin and omega main guns come to mind, further hampering their shooting their already lessor firepower compared to the Banks of turreted Turbolasers on a ISD which seem to be more flexible and does not need to aim the entire ship.

[Lord Revan]

ISDs aren't really glass cannons being able to take alot of punishment as well as deal it, in ROTS a Venator took a point blank broadside from the separtist ship (of similar size) and seemed to survive and ISDs are similar in terms of durability. while the Minbari War Cruisers don't seem to be able to take hits from their own weapons (at least in the episode Sheridan was introduced the goverment War Cruiser was able to cut the rear fins off its renegade counterpart with relative ease).

B5 heavy ships Weapons tend to massive spinal mounts, sharlin and omega main guns come to mind, further hampering their shooting their already lessor firepower compared to the Banks of turreted Turbolasers on a ISD which seem to be more flexible and does not need to aim the entire ship.

actually the Omega's main guns are the (relativly) small Turrets at side of the Hammer head, but that's beside the point which is that the Minbari War Cruiser cannot take weapons fire from its own weapons at all without suffering signifigant damage while it takes several seconds of sustained close range fire to damage a Venator and ISD have similar resilience.

[Batman]

I can't seem to recall 'any' B5 ship that has a 'massive spinal mount' as their main gun, really, possibly excepting the Vorlon planetkiller.

[Alyrium Denryle]

I can't seem to recall 'any' B5 ship that has a 'massive spinal mount' as their main gun, really, possibly excepting the Vorlon planetkiller.

The main particle cannon battery of an Omega looks like a spinal mount to someone not paying sufficient attention. But it can fire off axis.

[cmdrjones]

Ah... so, if we take this as a reasonably accurate analysis, then the Centauri may TRY something like what I describe, it just may not be very effective. So, how do we reconcile the Asteroid strike in ESB? Base on what i've seen on this thread, it would have taken multiple larger (when compared to the size of the aseroids used by the Centauri) asteroid strikes to batter down the ISD Shields BEFORE the hit we see take the bridge tower out, or that the ISD was damaged from the Hoth battle OR that the damage we see isn't as great at it appears (the bug on the windshield theory) or some combination of the above.

1) There are a lot of really really big asteroids in that field. Asteroids big enough to have sufficient gravity that people can walk on them. Turbolasers can fragment them (because they will fragment before they vaporize), but that just means lots of smaller impacts on the shields. The ISD would have been moving very very fast through a very large asteroid field. Lots and lots of impacts.

2) The asteroid that his was very large, and we have no clue how fast it was moving relative to the ISD. We see 2 vectors of motion, but the third we dont see is the important one.

3) What we see is perfectly consistent with a panic response and temporary loss of comms.

Also, as far as the STORY goes, where would the Centauri get the IDEA to use the ASteroid maneuver unless someone told them about the ISD with the bridge tower smashed? I mean, they haven't watched ESB, Right?

Simple. Their other weapons do jack shit. Even their most powerful beam weapons are at best in the high KT/sec range. Increase by 3 orders of magnitude with a single asteroid? Yes Please.

One nitpick: If you temporarily lose comms or jump in fright, you don't scream/cower for a full 2 seconds, it's a half second "Oh shit" at best, followed by a sheepish sort of aw shucks, the implication of that scene is that that dude, is DEAD. Of course, this can be argued left and right, that's just my opinion.

Second: being that the ESB asteroid is MUCH bigger, and even if B5 powers run through the calcs and decide they have no chance against an ISD, would a plausible "cheat" be to engineer a weapon that is basically a stripped down jump engine attached to a warhead or even other mass (perhaps an asteroid or something like a very large missile) that is basically a cluster of nukes or a simple mass that launches from hyperspace and attacks in order to cut down on the ISD's standoff distance advantage and to gain surprise?

For example: ISD approaches target (let's say Centauri prime or whatever) probes and or sacrificial lambs transmit targeting information to forces waiting in hyperspace. Next, forces in hyperspace either use accurate targeting info (relayed by realspace source) or by jumping in waves, to attack the ISD from multiple directions using these "fireships" to jump in either on top of (minbari style Hyperspace attack maneuver) the ISD in order to hit it with the jumpgate itself or, barring that to ram it with an engine slapped on the back of a largish asteroid an/or cluster of nukes. Not saying this is likely to actually DESTROY the ISD, but may have a better than even chance of hitting it with a reasonable rate of success, especially if they attack the ventral surface or the Rear of the ISD. This is to be attempted only AFTER several other forces have had thier asses handed to them by the Death Squadron. Is this a plausible counterattack method using available B5 tech?

[Alyrium Denryle]

One nitpick: If you temporarily lose comms or jump in fright, you don't scream/cower for a full 2 seconds, it's a half second "Oh shit" at best, followed by a sheepish sort of aw shucks, the implication of that scene is that that dude, is DEAD. Of course, this can be argued left and right, that's just my opinion.

There is the "oh shit" response from almost hitting a tree branch on your bike, and the "oh shit" response of a nuke going off 100 m from your face. Two different things.

Second: being that the ESB asteroid is MUCH bigger, and even if B5 powers run through the calcs and decide they have no chance against an ISD, would a plausible "cheat" be to engineer a weapon that is basically a stripped down jump engine attached to a warhead or even other mass (perhaps an asteroid or something like a very large missile) that is basically a cluster of nukes or a simple mass that launches from hyperspace and attacks in order to cut down on the ISD's standoff distance advantage and to gain surprise?

A jump engine requires a ship of at least 500 meters in length for a reason. Only ships of that size or larger have a power plant large enough to generate the vast amount of energy necessary to rip a hole in space time. Even if they have access to Quantium 40 (which I can only imagine is matter with negative mass). Unless the warhead is implausibly large, there is no way to do it that way. A HUGE mass driver launching planetoids could work, but at that point you will have problems with Newtonian Mechanics. An ISD's straight line acceleration is very fast, and all it needs to do is increase or decrease the proverbial throttle and you will miss. A planetoid warhead wont have the delta v needed to change its course....

The best option for everyone in the B5 universe is something they have in abundance that outstrips anything the GE has on tap.

Their telepaths.

Even a lowly P5 outstrips everyone but the emperor in pure psychic mojo and skill at the art of direct mental manipulation. A P12 like Bester only needs to see the general area his target is in (like a ship a light-second or more out) in order to scan the occupants and ransack their brains (go read the Psi Corps trilogy. They are canon. What the Psi Corps tells people in the series about their abilities? Damned Lies. Maybe direct LOS is needed for commercial teeps, but P10s and higher? Not so much).

So surrender. Welcome the Imperials with open arms.

Then implant sleeper agents in their ships by kidnapping technicians and shit on shore leave, reprogramming their minds, then releasing them when their leave is over. Then send them secret messages encoded inside their personal emails. They dont even need to know they are doing anything, or that they were ever abducted. Alien Hand Syndrome can be weaponized.

[FaxModem1]

We do have precedent with that with Mr. Garibaldi, as he was forced into becoming a sleeper agent to do a job. However, this seemed to take a few weeks and wasn't screened for anything by the Command staff due to them being low on resources and trusting him already. If Colonel whomever disappears for three months and starts having personality changes, people will notice and think something HAS happened to him, or wonder if he is even still fit for command.

[Borgholio]

If we're assuming an invasion of B5 space by the Empire, wouldn't Vader show up at some point? Anybody want to try and quantify him vs a Psi Cop?

[Alyrium Denryle]

If we're assuming an invasion of B5 space by the Empire, wouldn't Vader show up at some point? Anybody want to try and quantify him vs a Psi Cop?

He fails. Even against other force users, unless an already-telepathic force sensitive is using the force to amplify their abilities, the best they can do is communication and some light-touch suggestion. Even the most powerful/skilled are about equivalent to a P4-P5, able to intercept casual thoughts and separate truth from lies. Even the Neural Storm ability is only equivalent to the Fugue or Pain abilities that most B5 telepaths of even moderate strength use to defend themselves.

Darth Vader is not particularly skilled in the use of Telepathy given his raw power. His range of communication is good, but that is about it.

He has never, to my knowledge, been demonstrated to be able to casually rip apart the mind of an opponent like a Psi Cop can.

However, this seemed to take a few weeks

Nope. Days. It took Days. They just dropped him off somewhere else and it took weeks to find him. And that is with deep conditioning, blocks being put in place to avoid being detected on scans, and counter-revenge programming. Getting someone to unconsciously set the reactor to overload and disable safety measures while they do their watch rounds would be much easier, because you dont have to go mucking about with their conscious minds and personality.

[FaxModem1]

However, this seemed to take a few weeks

Nope. Days. It took Days. They just dropped him off somewhere else and it took weeks to find him. And that is with deep conditioning, blocks being put in place to avoid being detected on scans, and counter-revenge programming. Getting someone to unconsciously set the reactor to overload and disable safety measures while they do their watch rounds would be much easier, because you dont have to go mucking about with their conscious minds and personality.

Garibaldi was gone through the first two episodes of season 4, which was about a week each. It was also at least a week between the end of season 3 and the beginning of season 4. We do see Garibaldi once before he's recovered, with the Psi Corps testing his memory in 'Whatever Happened to Mister Garibaldi'. Garibaldi is let loose the next week in 'The Summoning', where Zach gets a tip from IPX about where he is. The 'weeks of searching' overlapped with Garibaldi's reprogramming, where he is promptly picked up and is receiving additional programming in the pod he is plastic wrapped to. Reprogramming a man while retaining the original personality could take at least a week, if not two or three.

However, a total personality rewrite, such as the capital punishment mind wipes, seem to take only a week or so in 'Passing Through Gethsemane', as we saw someone go from murderer to eager do-gooder monk in enough of a short time that the the murder victim was still fresh in everyone's mind.

[Tiriol]

If we're assuming an invasion of B5 space by the Empire, wouldn't Vader show up at some point? Anybody want to try and quantify him vs a Psi Cop?

He fails. Even against other force users, unless an already-telepathic force sensitive is using the force to amplify their abilities, the best they can do is communication and some light-touch suggestion. Even the most powerful/skilled are about equivalent to a P4-P5, able to intercept casual thoughts and separate truth from lies. Even the Neural Storm ability is only equivalent to the Fugue or Pain abilities that most B5 telepaths of even moderate strength use to defend themselves.

Darth Vader is not particularly skilled in the use of Telepathy given his raw power. His range of communication is good, but that is about it.

He has never, to my knowledge, been demonstrated to be able to casually rip apart the mind of an opponent like a Psi Cop can.

If we take the now non-canon EU into account, Vader has ripped information and knowledge straight out of people's minds. He usually prefers to use torture and other interrogation methods to weaken resistance to his mind probing, but he can do without it. In Death Star it was trivial for him to read a suspected saboteur's mind and conclude that he was in fact innocent (although Vader still executed the poor chap as an example to others) and even a large group of people's general feelings and level of willpower at once (something that the telepaths in B5 are trained against, since they start hearing every thought and it tends to extremely painful for them). In the same book Vader was also confident of his ability to pierce Princess Leia's mental walls given time, but he was worried that he might shred her mind to pieces in the process without learning anything useful. Vader does use some sort of telepathic probe in the comic album Purge when dealing with a captured Jedi, but it seems that he prefers to use the telekinetic aspects of the Force.

The Jedi mind trick and several other mind-affecting things they do are all sorts of telepathy. They don't seem to go for the subtle manipulation as much as the Psi Cops do, though, and they don't mess with people's personalities (Joruus C'baoth did that to General Covell in Thrawn Trilogy and once cut off of the Force, the General quickly perished after his mind had been so completely altered and made an extension of the mad Jedi).

Psi Cops seem to be more adept with telepathic functions than Vader, though. However, it would be unwise for them to try their tricks on the Dark Lord - it would be folly to think that the Sith during their long years of existence wouldn't have developed counter-measures to telepathic traps and spying. It could just be an extremely powerful resistance to any probing, though, or something nastier (and apparently trying to get a general feeling of a Sith Lord's presence, thoughts and feelings is inadvisable anyway, Palpatine and Vader have been likened more than once to being "pitch-black inside" or "malevolent shadow", so the dark side -infested mind is not a nice place to be or to spy upon).

[Borgholio]

Telekinetics seems to be the Holy Grail for B5 telepaths...it's something only a few can do and they've gone to a lot of trouble to try and make it work. When it comes to telepathy, a Psi Cop might be stronger than Vader, but Vader would be able to crush their windpipe and chuck them across the room with a casual thought. No telepath in B5 would be able to defend against that. I think the idea that the Force is more "physical" than the telepathy in the B5-verse makes sense.

[LaCroix]

This shows what a P12+ can pull off in the blink of an eye, when only moderately pissed off. If there weren't the magic bullet of Sheridan (immune to her telepathy due to Vorlon meddling), she would be unstoppable.

[cmdrjones]

One nitpick: If you temporarily lose comms or jump in fright, you don't scream/cower for a full 2 seconds, it's a half second "Oh shit" at best, followed by a sheepish sort of aw shucks, the implication of that scene is that that dude, is DEAD. Of course, this can be argued left and right, that's just my opinion.

There is the "oh shit" response from almost hitting a tree branch on your bike, and the "oh shit" response of a nuke going off 100 m from your face. Two different things.

Second: being that the ESB asteroid is MUCH bigger, and even if B5 powers run through the calcs and decide they have no chance against an ISD, would a plausible "cheat" be to engineer a weapon that is basically a stripped down jump engine attached to a warhead or even other mass (perhaps an asteroid or something like a very large missile) that is basically a cluster of nukes or a simple mass that launches from hyperspace and attacks in order to cut down on the ISD's standoff distance advantage and to gain surprise?

A jump engine requires a ship of at least 500 meters in length for a reason. Only ships of that size or larger have a power plant large enough to generate the vast amount of energy necessary to rip a hole in space time. Even if they have access to Quantium 40 (which I can only imagine is matter with negative mass). Unless the warhead is implausibly large, there is no way to do it that way. A HUGE mass driver launching planetoids could work, but at that point you will have problems with Newtonian Mechanics. An ISD's straight line acceleration is very fast, and all it needs to do is increase or decrease the proverbial throttle and you will miss. A planetoid warhead wont have the delta v needed to change its course....

The best option for everyone in the B5 universe is something they have in abundance that outstrips anything the GE has on tap.

Their telepaths.

Even a lowly P5 outstrips everyone but the emperor in pure psychic mojo and skill at the art of direct mental manipulation. A P12 like Bester only needs to see the general area his target is in (like a ship a light-second or more out) in order to scan the occupants and ransack their brains (go read the Psi Corps trilogy. They are canon. What the Psi Corps tells people in the series about their abilities? Damned Lies. Maybe direct LOS is needed for commercial teeps, but P10s and higher? Not so much).

So surrender. Welcome the Imperials with open arms.

Then implant sleeper agents in their ships by kidnapping technicians and shit on shore leave, reprogramming their minds, then releasing them when their leave is over. Then send them secret messages encoded inside their personal emails. They dont even need to know they are doing anything, or that they were ever abducted. Alien Hand Syndrome can be weaponized.

I quite agree.... the psi corps and the centauri navy will have QUITE different tactics to deal with an ISD, one is likely to fail spectacularly... I'm just trying to figure out what their hail mary play will LOOK LIKE....

As for the Psi corps... well, let's just say the scene when Vader first encounters Bester will be quite interesting...

[Lord Revan]

the problem with Lyta is that we don't know just how powerful she is beyond that she's more powerful then a P12 (since earth alliance grading stops at strongest human telepaths), using Lyta to grade what your typical B5 telepath is capable of is like taking the strongest force user in existance and assuming you average froce user can do the same things.

She's powerful sure but just how powerful we don't know beyond that's she's above what EA grading extends to, she could be anything from a weak P13 to a strong P20 or above, we just don't know and she's also singular or near so with few if any telepath of similar power level avaible for the younger races.¨

Bester is alot better example as we know how powerfull he is (a strong P12 IIRC) and thus can more easily derive what a typical telepath would be capable of.

[Borgholio]

Yeah Lyta is, quite literally, a mutant. She was engineered by the Vorlons to be a weapon of mass destruction and we only ever see one of her. The PSI Corps' attempt to engineer something higher than a P-12 resulted in Jason Ironheart who was potentially even stronger than Lyta. He could vaporize people with a thought. But aside from those two, the strongest we ever see is a P-12 like Bester. That may be the limit that a human can be naturally.

[cmdrjones]

Yeah Lyta is, quite literally, a mutant. She was engineered by the Vorlons to be a weapon of mass destruction and we only ever see one of her. The PSI Corps' attempt to engineer something higher than a P-12 resulted in Jason Ironheart who was potentially even stronger than Lyta. He could vaporize people with a thought. But aside from those two, the strongest we ever see is a P-12 like Bester. That may be the limit that a human can be naturally.

And Ironheart self destructed, effectively....

[Borgholio]

And Ironheart self destructed, effectively....

Well, turned into an energy being that could casually grant people enhanced mental powers including TK and travel at (presumably) FTL speeds.

[cmdrjones]

And Ironheart self destructed, effectively....

Well, turned into an energy being that could casually grant people enhanced mental powers including TK and travel at (presumably) FTL speeds.

true, but then he left for 1,000,000,000 years, so effectively he's out of the campaign