Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

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Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by willyvereb » 2014-08-17 04:44pm

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UC800, Kaiser Reinhard von Lohengramm managed to pacify the last force of resistance in the Milky Way.
His conquest for the galaxy was complete but Reinhard didn't stop.
Setting his sights further Reinhard aims to conquer the entire universe.
Expeditionary fleets were sent out to all the nearby galaxies with the aim of spying and reconnaissance.
Meanwhile the New Empire prospered, consolidated its power and prepared for an even greater military champaign.
In UC805 the reconnaissance units returned, heralding the news of numerous and diverse types of civilizations.
These were:
- Star Wars (Disney new canon)
- Star Trek (24th century era)
- Mass Effect (around the beginning of ME1)
- Battletech (sometime after the Fourth Succession War)
- Halo (Post-war era)
- Homeworld (Homeworld 2 era)
- Honorverse (late era)
- Babylon 5 (after the Minbar-Alliance war)
- Battlestar Galactica (old BSG)
- Stargate (early seasons of SG1)
- Macross (After the events of Macross 7)

Each of these settings are located in a different galaxy (and in case of SG, there's an Asgard and Pegasus Galaxy nearby) and Reinhard is free to approach either of these.
The initial travel requires 1 year but the New Empire developed huge gateways that allows transporting entire fleets to another galaxy in a single jump.
Reinhard's New Empire is also under ideal conditions meaning he has all his admirals and other important men (they never died to begin with) and Reinhard is in perfect health predicted to live for a hundred years.
Can Reinhard conquer the universe in his lifetime? Or at least does his descendants succeed?
I have to note that "conquest" isn't exclusive to violence and directly battling all factions. Diplomacy, trade, espionage or politics can be also in play.
The New Empire is also allowed to learn or otherwise acquire new technologies if it's feasible for them.
Thus each allied or conquered civilization could increase the Empire's power considerably.
How does it go?
Ladies and Gentlemen, you decide!
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by Simon_Jester » 2014-08-17 07:35pm

I don't like the "he gets all his subordinate commanders and everything's in perfect shape" part. Among other things, if Kircheis had never died, Reinhard would be a very different person.

Another issue is that... well. It is a brute reality of Reinhard's setting that most powerful men are ambitious, and quite a few of them will betray their own countries at the drop of a hat. If you neglect that, it isn't really "Legend of Galactic Heroes" setting you're pitting against others, it's a bad fanfic.

In the 'real' LoGH setting, if Reinhard goes off to personally lead a conquest fleet, he's likely to see his own power base eaten out from under him by revolts and secessions on the home front.
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by starfury » 2014-08-17 07:45pm

In the 'real' LoGH setting, if Reinhard goes off to personally lead a conquest fleet, he's likely to see his own power base eaten out from under him by revolts and secessions on the home front.
they made a rather large point in the final season I think that Oskar von Reuenthal was often painted as far more of a rival then Yang, that constant feeling of having his own not inconsiderate talents being second only to Reinhard himself and where not fore reinhard's existence, it was hinted in the last season that Ruenthal might have made the play for kaiser instead himself instead, good for a AH timeline anyways.
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by Simon_Jester » 2014-08-17 08:17pm

Uh... grammar makes my head hurt.

But yes, that illustrates my point. And... von Reuenthal may have been the most ambitious of Reinhard's subordinates. And the most likely to rebel against his authority should he find himself with a secure power base to do it from. But he was hardly the only ambitious man in Reinhard's empire.
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by willyvereb » 2014-08-18 03:22am

What are you two even talking about?
Sure, ambitions of the underlings and betrayal is far from unheard of in LotGH but what you're suggesting is the radical extreme of this.
Yes, Reuental had ambitions to take the galaxy for himself and thought Reinhard was trying to eliminate him early when he heard the fake accusations of his betrayal.
But who else you can mention with similar aims?
Not Kircheis
Not Mecklinger
Not Mittermeyer
Not Bittenfeld
Not Kessler
Not Merkatz (if we suppose he somehow did join Reinhard in this ideal scenario)

Amongst the core members of Reinhard's military commanders the only ones with even the potential to rise their ambitions against him were Fahrenheit and Müller. And given the track record of both, they were pretty much loyal to Reinhard.
So again, what the hell are you guys even talking about?
I think you also forget that Reinhard is considered both a military and political genius.
He was a good judge of character and could usually predict betrayals or if somebody was plotting against him.
If you can see that such situation would offer a good chance for some ambitious admiral to betray Reinhard, then so does he.
And he plots out the military champaign to either prevent or deal with such potential.
Seriously, how long has it been since you saw the series?
Must be long because otherwise you'd realize how ridiculous your idea would be.

Yes, being nearly cut away from the homeland means whoever leads the military champaign in a faraway galaxy has great amount of autonomy now.
It requires a high degree of trust.
But that's how it always have been in LotGH.
The commander can make a strategy and relay orders but the actual action towards performing them are performed by Reinhard's subordinates.
He doesn't order the admirals to do every little thing. It's their own job and Reinhard must trust them.
This galactic champaign would be a similar deal.
Also certain civilizations in this list could make both intergalactic travel and communications far easier.
Thus as the Empire gains new technologies so could this entire champaign become easier to coordinate.

As for Kircheis having an effect on Reinhard, of course he would.
But saying that Reinhard becomes a different person just shows how you don't remember anything about the series.
Sure, after Kircheis' death Reinhard was less compassionate and did a few rash decisions but that's it.
He was tortured by Kircheis' death and his actions prior to not stop the enemy nuclear strike on Westerland.
With Kircheis being alive Reinhard may had another voice of reason and would've helped to not overwork himself.
But that's about it.
Another possible change is that Reinhard planned to retreat to politics while eventually handling the supreme military command to Kircheis.
But we'd never know if Reinhard really did it.
I mean he's always striving to be on the frontlines and lead his fleets.
So yeah.

Anyways, if we want to talk about Sci-Fi politics then I suggest doing this with the other verses mentioned here.
How would the appearance of a huge (say, 100000 ships strong) imperial expedition fleet would change things to them?
Which factions could the Empire approach to form a local alliance?
What kind of political and military actions would be the best to conquer each galaxy here?
Those kind of questions.
You know, being on-topic.

Let's start with this:
Which world is worth for the Empire conquering first?
Which is the easiest to take over?
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by Simon_Jester » 2014-08-18 06:23am

willyvereb wrote:What are you two even talking about?...
Your formatting, it makes my eyes hurt this early in the morning, PLEASE put some whitespace between paragraphs, and don't make every sentence a separate paragraph.

The thing I want to point out to you is that one, even some of Reinhard's inner circle were risks for a rebellion against his authority, and two, plenty of other people besides his inner circle are security risks as well.
I think you also forget that Reinhard is considered both a military and political genius.

He was a good judge of character and could usually predict betrayals or if somebody was plotting against him.
And yet, they occurred. The point here is that this scenario is almost perfectly suited for splintering the Empire, because conquered territory in a remote galaxy provides would-be rebels with a power base. Likewise, Reinhard going far away to go conquer stuff at the expense of the political situation back home could be disastrous for him, unless we assume that there is no surviving opposition to his rule.

If there is no surviving opposition to his rule, then you've just knocked out one of the core themes that makes Legend of Galactic Heroes a good series:
If you can see that such situation would offer a good chance for some ambitious admiral to betray Reinhard, then so does he.
And he plots out the military champaign to either prevent or deal with such potential.
Seriously, how long has it been since you saw the series?
Must be long because otherwise you'd realize how ridiculous your idea would be.
My point is that Reinhard being a genius does not make him immune to the same kind of crap rulers throughout history had to deal with: In particular, the need to secure his own power at home and not rest easy or become complacent.

If you remove that from the scenario and just assume that Reinhard has a totally unified and reliable empire behind him, it's not in keeping with the actual story that made Reinhard a compelling character. Plus, it takes one of the Empire's characteristic weaknesses (that it's a new government and a new dynasty with limited political legitimacy even in the eyes of its own citizens) and handwaves it away.
Yes, being nearly cut away from the homeland means whoever leads the military champaign in a faraway galaxy has great amount of autonomy now. It requires a high degree of trust. But that's how it always have been in LotGH. The commander can make a strategy and relay orders but the actual action towards performing them are performed by Reinhard's subordinates.

He doesn't order the admirals to do every little thing. It's their own job and Reinhard must trust them.
This galactic champaign would be a similar deal.

Also certain civilizations in this list could make both intergalactic travel and communications far easier.
Debateable; if they were any good at intergalactic travel they would have come to him. Star Wars is a case in point, especially since quite frankly they operate at a much higher level of firepower, computer sophistication, and national populations five or more orders of magnitude larger.
Thus as the Empire gains new technologies so could this entire champaign become easier to coordinate.
The people easy to conquer mostly lack the technology he needs. None of those settings have easy intergalactic travel technology and communications, and if they did they'd probably use it to launch counterattacks on Reinhard's home bases.

Also, campaign, not champaign or champagne. :D
As for Kircheis having an effect on Reinhard, of course he would.

But saying that Reinhard becomes a different person just shows how you don't remember anything about the series.

Sure, after Kircheis' death Reinhard was less compassionate and did a few rash decisions but that's it.
He was tortured by Kircheis' death and his actions prior to not stop the enemy nuclear strike on Westerland. With Kircheis being alive Reinhard may had another voice of reason and would've helped to not overwork himself. But that's about it.
I think it has a profound effect on Reinhard's character that he loses his invaluable, dearly beloved (perhaps literally beloved) friend, in a real sense his only friend, at the very moment that he's finally achieved nearly all that he set out to accomplish, his moment of triumph.

Not saying this will make him weaker, or stronger, but it'd make him very different than if Kircheis had not died. Which is an interesting thing to speculate on in its own right.
Another possible change is that Reinhard planned to retreat to politics while eventually handling the supreme military command to Kircheis. But we'd never know if Reinhard really did it. I mean he's always striving to be on the frontlines and lead his fleets. So yeah.
PARAGRAPHS, MAN. Write in PARAGRAPHS. Please...

I don't think Reinhard would ever have been able to give up field command of the armed forces- he's like Napoleon or Alexander in that respect. Sure, Alexander could have delegated command of an army to a subordinate to go subdue a specific target. But he would never give up the opportunity to lead the core of his army in the decisive battles. So I think you're right about that.
Anyways, if we want to talk about Sci-Fi politics then I suggest doing this with the other verses mentioned here. How would the appearance of a huge (say, 100000 ships strong) imperial expedition fleet would change things to them?
Depends on the setting. In Star Wars they're just flying targets, but there are a lot of them and they're individually a threat to small ships and hapless weaklings. In many other settings (e.g. Star Trek), sheer numbers makes them overwhelming even if their individual firepower is merely 'on par.' In a few settings (BattleTech being the big one), their technology is probably well in advance of what the locals can field, at least in terms of space combat and tactical doctrine.

Honorverse is a very interesting case, that I remember us having had an extended thread on that before. Seeing the Solarian Battle Fleet waller-swarm square off against the invaders from another galaxy would be fun, as would seeing if Manticore/Haven actually knows how to cope when someone rolls up to them with five thousand of the wall plus screen.
Which factions could the Empire approach to form a local alliance?
What kind of political and military actions would be the best to conquer each galaxy here?
Those kind of questions.
You know, being on-topic.

Let's start with this:
Which world is worth for the Empire conquering first?
Which is the easiest to take over?
Are you trying to get us to plot out your fanfic-saga for you?
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by FTeik » 2014-08-18 07:36am

Well, sending out those of his over-ambitious underlings, who could become a danger to conquer other different galaxies might be a smart move.

"Here, Oskar, take those fifty-thousand ships and pacify that Goauld-infested galaxy for me. Come back, once you're done and we'll talk about your promotion to Vice-Kaiser."

I wonder, which other galaxy Paul von Oberstein would view as the biggest threat they'd need to deal with?
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by Simon_Jester » 2014-08-18 02:49pm

The catch is that if they win they can assemble a powerful force in a large, unknown base of support, far from the oversight of the central government...

As to which are most dangerous... Assuming the SDN consensus is basically correct, Star Wars has overwhelmingly superior technology overall but no intergalactic travel- so as long as . The Stargate setting has less technological superiority but their higher-tech factions do have intergalactic travel.

Mass Effect, Star Trek, Battletech, the Honorverse, Babylon 5, and I think Battlestar Galactica are all... not really strategic threats when you get down to it, because they can't launch a meaningful counterattack. Some of them lack the raw, overwhelming firepower to overcome a typical major fleet from Legend of Galactic Heroes. The Honorverse might well have it but, again, has very slow FTL and its forces aren't a threat to anything outside their own spiral arm of their own galaxy.

The Homeworld setting is tricky; they have a handful of super-artifacts with FTL jump ranges long enough and fast enough to be a counterattack threat, but their firepower isn't exactly staggering. On the other hand, if we introduce a bit of gameplay into our story, the Homeworld Hiigarans (and perhaps others) have a very real knack for hoovering up useable matter and producing a von Neumann swarm of death, so they might actually be able to rapidly respond in kind to an attack in overwhelming numbers.

I don't know enough about Macross to comment on it.
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by Enigma » 2014-08-18 07:02pm

How would they fare against the Replicators from SG1?
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by Batman » 2014-08-18 08:33pm

Star Wars did have intergalactic travel, just not with the casual ease the SG franchise does. 'Outbound Flight' got blown to pieces by Thrawn, there was no technological reason it wouldn't have worked, and the Vong undeniably reached the Wars galaxy from elsewhere...if not very speedily. At least for local cluster scenarios (say anything below 10 million ly) Wars absolutely has the speed and the technology for intergalactic travel. It simply doesn't happen because all involved parties have their hands full in the galaxy they're in as it is.

And Battletech? Seriously?
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by Simon_Jester » 2014-08-18 08:52pm

I have a sneaking suspicion the author doesn't actually know much about Battletech and just thinks Reinhard is awesome and wants to imagine him conquering everything easily.

So setting up easily defeated targets is, yeah.

Now granted, if BattleTech had comparable technology and ship numbers it'd be very interesting. The two sides are sort of... thematically compatible, with both of them having a tradition of political scheming, aristocratic societies, and infighting.

One note: if we look at the raw population numbers the Empire from LoGH never contains more than, what, forty billion people? They're not that populous compared to many SF settings. The catch is that their industrial output is large enough to produce a national navy of very impressive size at full war mobilization, considerably heavier than that possessed by many other SF societies with (nominally) larger populations.
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by willyvereb » 2014-08-19 05:13am

Nah, I wanted to feature a number of popular Sci-Fi civilizations which span large enough that we can talk about galactic conquest.
But not overpowered enough to be flat out of the LotGH's league.
This is for example the reason why I explicitly referred to the new Disney canon with Star Wars here.
While that decision still leaves a sour taste behind, without various EU feats the ISDs are much closer to LotGH ships in power.
If my memory serves well there's that asteroid vaporization calc from the movies which comes up in the low megatons for light turbolasers.
Similarly, LoGH beam cannons tend to vaporize thousands of tons of armor off the enemy ship's hull.
As for BattleTech being useless, well it could be.
I only included it as a popular Sci-Fi like with BSG. There are a few techs the Empire may find valuable but it's mostly interesting for how the Empire would trying to meddle with the politics of the Inner Sphere.
Besides, just like how the Empire can take new technologies, there's nothing preventing the opposition to steal the Empire's.
If they hijack a ship or convince a captain to desert then it gives BattleTech some chance to try producing their own warships with these.
It'd be unlikely to change the course of the war but it still deserves a mention.
Also civilizations that are easy to conquer have some merits, I guess.
They still have manpower and by devoting some personnel and resources they could give a considerable boom to the Neue Reich's industry.
And again, since these are all different settings it's guaranteed that there are at least a few useful techs even from the less advanced races.
Take Mass Effect as example. While the Citadel fleets are close to a joke compared to anything the New Empire can do, their eezo tech would be extremely valuable.
It should be also noted that not everywhere the Empire would be viewed as terrible invaders but allies or even potential saviors.
Of course politics and general distrust would generally get in the way but many human civilizations would perhaps welcome the Empire's assistance.
This is also more or less the reason why I didn't exclude cosmics as the ascended people in SG or the Q.
They might become a major pain in the ass but that's not an absolute necessity.
These cosmics also tend to rarely interfere in the wars of mortals so unless the Empire messes something up bad they hopefully won't get involved.

Lastly, no, I of course not plan to write a fanfiction for this.
I almost stopped writing such for half a decade.
This is just a VS debate, flavored with some speculations and fictional politics.
Nothing more and nothing less.
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by Ahriman238 » 2014-08-19 03:23pm

Simon_Jester wrote:I don't like the "he gets all his subordinate commanders and everything's in perfect shape" part. Among other things, if Kircheis had never died, Reinhard would be a very different person.

Another issue is that... well. It is a brute reality of Reinhard's setting that most powerful men are ambitious, and quite a few of them will betray their own countries at the drop of a hat. If you neglect that, it isn't really "Legend of Galactic Heroes" setting you're pitting against others, it's a bad fanfic.

In the 'real' LoGH setting, if Reinhard goes off to personally lead a conquest fleet, he's likely to see his own power base eaten out from under him by revolts and secessions on the home front.
I've only seen the first dozen or so episodes of LOGH, so I'm probably not qualified to comment on a lot of this, but from what you're saying it sounds like by the end the Empire has become a lot like the Galactic Empire from the Foundation, as of Bel Riose. An Empire unable to expand because if the Emperor leads, he leaves a nest of vipers to plot and scheme in the capital, if he sends a general they become a threat to him by their resources and increased popularity and so must be quashed quickly, and if the Emperor is weak (doesn't describe Reinhardt from what I've seen) then ambitious officers will try and seize the crown rather than try for glory on distant frontiers. Is that roughly accurate?
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by Simon_Jester » 2014-08-19 08:57pm

It's not that bad, but the dynamic is there. Reinhard's main security is (at first) his overwhelming personal military skill and that of the men loyal to him, with that loyalty cemented by the shared effort to overthrow the old Imperial order.

Later, he's conquered practically everything, but we still sometimes see people trying to stab him in the back, though not all the time.

I suspect that creating a situation where the Empire is trying to maintain control over a huge array of widely scattered powerbases, some of which contain alien races and weird technologies in advance of their Imperial counterparts... it would be hard for Reinhard to prevent centrifugal forces from kicking in.
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by NecronLord » 2014-08-29 03:16am

The entire Stargate Universe?
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That said, as of Season 1, rampant expansion does mean that the replicators (both sets) are still out there, as are the Ori, who are ascended beings who are well inclined to intervene.


Diseny jettisonning the EU arguably makes Star Wars stronger; the fifty million planets remain, but the twenty five thousand star destroyers claim is gone, and Obi Wan's identification of the Rishi Maze on the map in AotC as a satellite galaxy on the map gives them (minor) intergalactic travel.

Important question then, is can the other guys also reverse engineer the plot drive and counter-invade LoGH?

If so I can see the Death Star being a very, very serious problem.

And of course the replicators.
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by KlavoHunter » 2014-08-30 04:04pm

NecronLord wrote:Important question then, is can the other guys also reverse engineer the plot drive and counter-invade LoGH?

If so I can see the Death Star being a very, very serious problem.
That is, if Reinhard doesn't pre-empt them by building more mobile Fortresses like Geiersburg and sending them along with his extragalactic war fleets.
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by NecronLord » 2014-08-30 10:08pm

So... I went and looked up the fortress you mention.
The Geiersburg Fortress (Japanese: ガイエスブルク要塞) was an Imperial fortress located in the Freya Starzone. At 45 kilometres in diameter, it was of the same order of magnitude as Iserlohn, albeit smaller, and was the second most powerful Imperial fortress. The fortress had a mass of roughly 40 trillion tonnes and could maintain a fleet of up to 16,000 war ships within. Its primary armament, a massive X-ray beam cannon called the Vulture's Claw, had a wavelength of 100 ångströms and an energy output of 740 million megawatts
source

740 terawatts.

Brian Young's Turbolaser Commentaries established a minimum of 450 terawatts for a medium turbolaser on an ISD.

Assuming this is accurate, and given that these fortresses are mortal threats to one another, will these people not be demoralized and coming to the table when their invincible battle station is shot down in say, five or six shots from the first patrol ship they meet, using its mid power guns?
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by willyvereb » 2014-08-31 11:58am

willyvereb wrote:Raven's Claw is about as strong as Thor's Hammer, the same cannon which can vaporize 1000 battleships with a single shot.
Said battleships were spread out in about thousands of kilometers in diameter.
So yeah, 740 TW makes about as much sense as beam rifles in UC Gundam vaporizing giant asteroids with only a few MW power.

They are false statistics compared to what kind of showings the thing have. By a rough calculation Thor's hammer has the firepower equivalent of many petatons of TNT. And if required the beam can be focused to be as "thin" as a battleship's width. It can be also fired relatively quick, requiring only a minute or less before it could be next used. Thor's Hammer is so powerful and can fire so quick that it can annihilate close to 40,000 warships moving at relativistic speed before they even reached the fortress. (6th Battle of Iserlohn)
Actually given that the emerge of Geiersburg Fortress from warp caused such gravity and space-time fluctuation that it threatened warships from even 300 light-seconds away I say that firepower might be a still a gross understatement.

In actuality nothing but maybe the Empire's space fighters have less than 740 TW of output.Hell, likely not even that. Spaceships (or at least the military kind) in LoGH use fusion engines which heats up and accelerates purified water vapor to almost the speed of light. The newest most efficient engines accelerate vapor to 68%C. Even if we assume fraction of this for fighters (they were developed 20-30 years ago) and only a few kilograms of water per second it's still meaning reactor output in the PW range. Few kilograms per second because space fighters maneuver a lot and expedite their fuel under hours of time. Their size shouldn't allow them to carry more than 10+ tons of water.

As for actual warships their weapons range from a few to few tens of megatons of TNT equivalent energy per shot. When breaching the shields shots regularly vaporize a sizable portion of the enemy hull. And LoGH ships literally have armors counted in meters in thickness (5m according to databooks, ranging from 10 to 30 meters according to the anime's visuals). Actually, the armor of LoGH ships are quite durable even if not up to par with their shields or weaponry. During the battle of Mar-Adetta Star Zone solar winds flung asteroids of various sizes at high speed at the Empire's fleet. (Don't ask how, space environment in LoGH occasionally reach Star Trek levels of weirdness). One such asteroid hit the side armor of the battleship. Said asteroid was about 2-3 times the diameter of a battleship's length (~700m) and the rock moved roughly the length of its own diameter under a second. So it impacted at a few km/s velocity yet it had little effect on the ship aside from pushing it away. Electromagnetic shields might've helped (the coldness of space might make even inert rock into good conductors) but due to its huge mass I doubt that had much effect here.

Another thing to note is the speed at which beam cannons project their beams. Even though the target is at times 20 light-seconds away they score hits in nearly an instant. I think the most impressive feat happened when Kircheis challenged Lichtendale in a large scale fleet battle. My quick calculation resulted in the beam traveling at almost 500 times the speed of light. You may frown at the idea of relatively hard-SF beam weapon moving at FTL speeds but so we could dis the power generation and firepower in Sci-Fi.
It just...happened, okay?
Anyways, it's better to view these as just simple beam weapons that only happen to be extremely fast. But that speed can be a major tactical advantage when engaging an enemy fleet from great ranges. A beam moving at 500c can for example reach the Sun from Earth under just a single second.
Speaking of which, LotGH also have some retardedly FTL sensors.They can immediately spot a black hole from 3200 light-seconds away or the previous example when Geiersburg Fortress warped out during the 8th battle of Iserlohn. It was reported to be 300 light-seconds away (although the perspective was terribly off as the 5km diameter fortress filled half the screen) yet Alliance ships saw it emerging in real-time, implying something akin to a "FTL camera". So they can both quickly notice enemies from long range and effectively target them thanks to these weirdly fast beams and sensors. Many other civilizations sport strangely FTL sensors, some of these even have tehnobabble to semi-explain them. But not many have it to such degree.
This can come in handy for the Empire during battle.
I edited my above post but I apparently went past a certain time limit. Man, I didn't even know such thing existed here. Is it something new?
Because I sure didn't have such problems just a while ago.
Anyways, I'd like to ask a mod to delete my previous post while keeping this one. I'd have asked them in PM but didn't see them being online ATM.
So I'll just humbly wait till NecronLord or somebody else reads this.
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by Simon_Jester » 2014-08-31 06:38pm

KlavoHunter wrote:
NecronLord wrote:Important question then, is can the other guys also reverse engineer the plot drive and counter-invade LoGH?

If so I can see the Death Star being a very, very serious problem.
That is, if Reinhard doesn't pre-empt them by building more mobile Fortresses like Geiersburg and sending them along with his extragalactic war fleets.
Yeah, as others note, that's not gonna work out too well. Geiersburg/Iserlohn-class fortresses are very impressive technological achievements, but they do not show many signs of being armed or powered to the same (planet-disintegrating) scale as the Death Stars.
NecronLord wrote:So... I went and looked up the fortress you mention.
The Geiersburg Fortress (Japanese: ガイエスブルク要塞) was an Imperial fortress located in the Freya Starzone. At 45 kilometres in diameter, it was of the same order of magnitude as Iserlohn, albeit smaller, and was the second most powerful Imperial fortress. The fortress had a mass of roughly 40 trillion tonnes and could maintain a fleet of up to 16,000 war ships within. Its primary armament, a massive X-ray beam cannon called the Vulture's Claw, had a wavelength of 100 ångströms and an energy output of 740 million megawatts
source

740 terawatts.

Brian Young's Turbolaser Commentaries established a minimum of 450 terawatts for a medium turbolaser on an ISD.

Assuming this is accurate, and given that these fortresses are mortal threats to one another, will these people not be demoralized and coming to the table when their invincible battle station is shot down in say, five or six shots from the first patrol ship they meet, using its mid power guns?
Again, the 740-terawatt figure is just stupidly underpowered compared to the visuals of what we see the weapon doing. It's like "phased plasma guns in the forty watt range" or whatever, it's pure technobabble and cannot be taken seriously because otherwise it creates a paradox.

However, even considering the on-screen capability of the great fortresses from that setting, their weapons are, to be highly informal, planet-scorching rather than planet-cracking. And they are vulnerable (more or less) to fire from their own main guns.

Meanwhile, the Death Stars have planet-vaporizing weapons, and are shielded heavily enough that a planet-scorching capital ship bombardment will not seriously threaten them.

Thus, one can argue reasonably that the LoGH fortresses are not armed or powered to the same scale as the Death Star. Nor are they shielded or armored to withstand hits from a Death Star superlaser. While one of them might well be able to tackle Star Wars ships, blowing them up one at a time (IF they can focus their main weapons down to a pencil beam), they really shouldn't cancel out the Death Stars.

They just don't have the power density, in terms of watts per ton of spaceship, to take on something that nasty.
willyvereb wrote:They are false statistics compared to what kind of showings the thing have. By a rough calculation Thor's hammer has the firepower equivalent of many petatons of TNT. And if required the beam can be focused to be as "thin" as a battleship's width.
When did this happen?
Actually given that the emerge of Geiersburg Fortress from warp caused such gravity and space-time fluctuation that it threatened warships from even 300 light-seconds away I say that firepower might be a still a gross understatement.
That says much about LoGH warp drive and nothing about their weapons technology. It may well be that warp drive navigation is highly sensitive to suddenly having a planetoid-sized mass appear within ten million kilometers of your position. This does not mean that the ship's weapons are in and of themselves that vulnerable.
As for actual warships their weapons range from a few to few tens of megatons of TNT equivalent energy per shot. When breaching the shields shots regularly vaporize a sizable portion of the enemy hull. And LoGH ships literally have armors counted in meters in thickness (5m according to databooks, ranging from 10 to 30 meters according to the anime's visuals). Actually, the armor of LoGH ships are quite durable even if not up to par with their shields or weaponry. During the battle of Mar-Adetta Star Zone solar winds flung asteroids of various sizes at high speed at the Empire's fleet. (Don't ask how, space environment in LoGH occasionally reach Star Trek levels of weirdness). One such asteroid hit the side armor of the battleship. Said asteroid was about 2-3 times the diameter of a battleship's length (~700m) and the rock moved roughly the length of its own diameter under a second. So it impacted at a few km/s velocity yet it had little effect on the ship aside from pushing it away. Electromagnetic shields might've helped (the coldness of space might make even inert rock into good conductors) but due to its huge mass I doubt that had much effect here.
Armor wouldn't be very helpful at protecting against that, because you still end up slamming the ship sideways fast enough to turn everyone to jelly: zero to two kilometers per second in one second is 200 gravities, enough to kill everyone and destroy almost everything that isn't a hardened, high-durability structural element of the ship.

Honestly, for handling a (relatively) low velocity collision, the ship's inertial compensation technology may matter more than its armor.

Suppose you have the power to 'compensate' for accelerations of hundreds of gravities generated by the main engines. If you have a similar system ready to react to collisions, then the ship can be accelerated sideways at hundreds of gravities without being damaged.

In a normal collision, what happens is that the impacting mass strikes, say, the side of your car, and crumples that side inward while imparting force and acceleration to the rest of the vehicle. The structure of the car is damaged, and the contents (like the driver) are thrown about sharply by a sudden spike of acceleration.

With handwavium inertial dampers in play, you may be able to take that sudden spike of destructive impact force and turn it into a more gradual 'push' that simply shoves the ship sideways... at hundreds of gravities, but you can handle that with whatever technology makes the engines not kill everyone.
Another thing to note is the speed at which beam cannons project their beams. Even though the target is at times 20 light-seconds away they score hits in nearly an instant. I think the most impressive feat happened when Kircheis challenged Lichtendale in a large scale fleet battle. My quick calculation resulted in the beam traveling at almost 500 times the speed of light. You may frown at the idea of relatively hard-SF beam weapon moving at FTL speeds but so we could dis the power generation and firepower in Sci-Fi.
Eh, Doc Smith did it in 1930.

But my real question is, how do you know that the beams propagate at superluminal speeds? There are a couple of possible explanations I can think of without reviewing the episode footage, though if you give me an episode number I could look it up maybe.

1) You may see a one second on-screen 'cut' from Kircheis firing to Lichtendale's ships being hit, when in fact this cuts out a much longer period of time in which the beam propagates through space.
2) You may be seeing 'sped-up' imagery of something that actually took thirty seconds to happen only taking one second in the visuals, which would hardly be the first or only time that's happened in anime because seriously who wants to draw thirty seconds of a beam flying through space.
3) There may be some confusion about exactly what happens when according to the visuals

We also see examples of beams fired by ships propagating at very finite speed, like the "artillery attacks" used by Reinhard's fleet to break up the Alliance breakthrough assault at Fourth Tiamat.
Anyways, it's better to view these as just simple beam weapons that only happen to be extremely fast. But that speed can be a major tactical advantage when engaging an enemy fleet from great ranges. A beam moving at 500c can for example reach the Sun from Earth under just a single second.
Which of course explains why effective beam range in LoGH is limited to about six million kilometers.

That is consistent with beams taking 20 seconds to cross the distance (at light speed) and ships being able to easily dodge or deflect the beam after it's traveled that far. Or with ships taking one second to cross six million kilometers, sure... in which case the ships are only needing one second to dodge. LoGH ships aren't that maneuverable.
Speaking of which, LotGH also have some retardedly FTL sensors.They can immediately spot a black hole from 3200 light-seconds away or the previous example when Geiersburg Fortress warped out during the 8th battle of Iserlohn. It was reported to be 300 light-seconds away (although the perspective was terribly off as the 5km diameter fortress filled half the screen) yet Alliance ships saw it emerging in real-time, implying something akin to a "FTL camera". So they can both quickly notice enemies from long range and effectively target them thanks to these weirdly fast beams and sensors. Many other civilizations sport strangely FTL sensors, some of these even have tehnobabble to semi-explain them. But not many have it to such degree.

This can come in handy for the Empire during battle.
It certainly can, but in many ways it just grants them parity. There are settings whose sensor capability is inferior to what you describe, but most of them are also technologically weaker than Reinhard's Empire in other ways. The settings where major powers actually have the technology and numbers it'd take to be a threat (Stargate's bigger powers, Star Wars) can duplicate that kind of sensor capability too.
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by NecronLord » 2014-08-31 07:19pm

I have deleted the unedited post as you requested willyvereb.

I note that Galactic Republic ships use sensors capable of detecting FTL vessels as they approach and fire upon them:



(There are other examples on SciFights.net from the films and Clone Wars, available here, so certainly a degree of FTL sensors are posessed by star wars ships, and some examples far in excess of 3000 light seconds (the example of the droid detecting comets while in hyperspace is more than a second at presumably more than 3000 c springs to mind)

Could you link me to a reference where I can see:
  • The Thor's Hammer or some comparable gun (or even any vessel) vapourise an inert target? Because I've just looked it up (specifically I have looked at 'Recapture of Iserlohn Fortress, Episode 70'), and quite often it seems that the ship is bathed in blue fire, sizzles with lightning, and then explodes. Hundreds of terawatts is not a small amount of energy and quite enough to trigger secondary explosions in the vessel, particularly as this thing has to be charged for some time before firing (rendering it single petawatt at least). Some of the ships melt like candlewax, but others are definitely exploding, not vaporized or melted.
  • Please show them scattering the mass (overcoming gravitational binding energy) of a planet; or some other feat of massive destruction against an inert target.
  • If you're arguing for petawatt fighters, please show your math/evidence, I have cited my sources, secondary as the LoGH one is, please show yours.
  • Likewise, can I have episode number and time for the FTL beams thing, it seems like that might simply be someone cutting around the time delay.
Also in 'Recapture of Iserlohn Fortress, Episode 70' there is a scene where a boarding party of alliance personnel fight the Empire's Panzergrenadiers with axes and the Panzergrenadiers use crossbows. I'm told they have some kind of thing that stops them using beamguns but... do these Panzergrenadiers not have some grenades they could use or something?

Could someone help me grasp that one?
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by NecronLord » 2014-08-31 07:54pm

As an update, I found a potentially very useful resource on the topic in on the board (no thread necromancy thanks!) with a lot of screencaps ready to use.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=144861

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This looks to be to scale, is it? If so the Thor Hammer's range can't be good.

Incidentally the more I hear about this series, the more I am interested in watching it properly.
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by Batman » 2014-08-31 07:59pm

Panzergrenadiers are also supposed to fight alongside and against tanks (hence the 'Panzer'). What were they doing in a boarding action? They're ground troops. Their only reason to be on a starship is they're being transported to planet XYZ to blow stuff up/capture it. While supported by tanks and AFVs/IFVs.
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by NecronLord » 2014-08-31 08:17pm

Batman wrote:Panzergrenadiers are also supposed to fight alongside and against tanks (hence the 'Panzer'). What were they doing in a boarding action? They're ground troops. Their only reason to be on a starship is they're being transported to planet XYZ to blow stuff up/capture it. While supported by tanks and AFVs/IFVs.
Are you talking about RL Panzergrenadiers, or the LoGH ones?
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by Batman » 2014-08-31 08:26pm

RL. Never saw an episode of LoGH. But if that isn't what they're supposed to do, why call them that?
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Re: Reinhard von Lohengramm's Conquest of the Universe

Post by NecronLord » 2014-08-31 08:38pm

I am of the understanding that the Empire's original founders were really very keen on German & Prussian history, but didn't understand all the nuances, so it's most likely a deliberate in-universe mistake.
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