WWZ

[Ted C]

I finally saw World War Z on Netflix last night.

Those zombies make an apocalypse almost sound plausible. All the strengths of a Romero zombie, none of their weaknesses.

And they aren't even trying to kill you. They're trying to infect you. Once they bite you, they move on to someone else. With that getting loose in multiple densely populated areas at once, there would be a real problem.

But that's where it becomes hard to believe. How could this infection have gotten to so many major population centers at once before it was detected? The zombies have no concept of stealth: when they hear something, they go after it at full speed. There's no way they could hide in a bunch of planes until they were well distributed, and the incubation period on the infection is no more than a few minutes, tops (typically seconds).

[madd0ct0r]

in the book incubation varied between a minute (for a infected heart transplant) and multiple days (for a skin graze or quick bite).
the epicenter was a Chinese temple flooded during construction of a dam. Dozens and hundreds of victims secretly trying to get to the west or out of china to find a cure.

[FedRebel]

in the book incubation varied between a minute (for a infected heart transplant) and multiple days (for a skin graze or quick bite).
the epicenter was a Chinese temple flooded during construction of a dam. Dozens and hundreds of victims secretly trying to get to the west or out of china to find a cure.

The first documented case was a village near the reservoir of the Three Gorges Dam. The account from the doctor was that his government contact knew enough about the situation from his basic description to give precise instruction for quarantining all bite victims and a military helicopter with a bio-hazard crew was alarmingly prompt. Oh and the villagers account was that the zombie boy was bit by something in the reservoir, his father that accompanied him never returned. In the book that's the closest to the origin of the virus it gets.

The spread of the virus was facilitated by the flu like and rabies like symptoms, prior to turning a bite/scratch victim would brush off their malady as a flu not isolating themselves and turning without precautions being taken. Freshly turned victims were misdiagnosed as being rabid, medical professionals tended to take precautions consistent with Rabies and not Zombies. Further it took a day on average for a bite/scratch victim to turn, more than enough time to fly across the world and go zombie deep in another city. The flow of illegal immigrants from China was an especially big problem as potential victims couldn't be tracked and quarantined by destination countries, while smugglers were getting smart enough to look out for symptoms and refuse passengers with bite marks, desperate people were driven to hide their wounds and symptoms.

As far as organ transplants, the black/gray trade was the main epicenter, circumventing testing procedures, organs from Chinese corpses (people who died by accident/suicide prior to turning) were ships across the globe and inserted into recipients who would turn in minutes/hours. Given the naure of the transplant, bodies (victims of the turned patient) would be dumped in rural areas without knowledge of the disease's nature (likely the patient and victims from that South America story were snacking in the slums after being dropped off.) I'd imagine 'white' trade organs could have the same issue to a rarer extent (think that Scrubs episode where three people got rabies infected organs.)

The final piece was the lack of belief, because the PRC locked itself down and wasn't sharing information, nobody believed the genuine extent...except Israel. By the time zombies were recognized it was too late, the world was in a crippling pandemic, everything went straight to hell with the spring thaw...YEARS after the first documented case.

Really wish the movie had a news montage in the opening credits (instead of that cheap as Hell 'B-Roll' montage.) To at least give the general setting, African Rabies outbreaks, Phalanx, Hospital "incidents" (the top secret Alpha Team sweeps.) Downside is the Lane's come off as apathetically ignorant, they should have basic knowledge that "African Rabies" has spread to the US with limited outbreaks...in the traffic jam listening to the news would've been the first thing normal people do just to try and rule out that possibility...Hell, news during breakfast would've been listened to.

[Simon_Jester]

The first documented case was a village near the reservoir of the Three Gorges Dam. The account from the doctor was that his government contact knew enough about the situation from his basic description to give precise instruction for quarantining all bite victims and a military helicopter with a bio-hazard crew was alarmingly prompt. Oh and the villagers account was that the zombie boy was bit by something in the reservoir, his father that accompanied him never returned. In the book that's the closest to the origin of the virus it gets.

It's heavily implied that the Zombie Survival Guide is canon in the book, in which case there have been ongoing zombie outbreaks at many times throughout history but that it had been kept secret and out of the public eye for most of that time. The Three Gorges Dam reservoir incident is just the one that triggered the global zombie epidemic.

[biostem]

In the movie, when Brad Pitt's character goes to Korea, (or was it China?), they mention someone who was bitten, taken to and locked up in the military base's jail, and only turned some time later, (from the dialogue, it was at least a few hours from bite to zombification). It seems that the earlier cases had a longer incubation time, and only after full on outbreak, did it take the 12-14 seconds we see him count.

One thing about the film that I always wondered about is what the criteria for being considered "sick" is, when it comes to who the zombies skip instead of infecting - They seem to need to get close to tell, so maybe it's an odor or something they are checking for. Though, scents can carry far, so it'd be hard to pinpoint who is a good potential carrier from who isn't.

[applejack]

In the movie, when Brad Pitt's character goes to Korea, (or was it China?), they mention someone who was bitten, taken to and locked up in the military base's jail, and only turned some time later, (from the dialogue, it was at least a few hours from bite to zombification). It seems that the earlier cases had a longer incubation time, and only after full on outbreak, did it take the 12-14 seconds we see him count.

It was Korea. That was the base doctor. They said was that after he got bitten, he came back to base and started attacking the soldiers there. The longest time for one of the soldiers to turn was ten minutes.

One thing about the film that I always wondered about is what the criteria for being considered "sick" is, when it comes to who the zombies skip instead of infecting - They seem to need to get close to tell, so maybe it's an odor or something they are checking for. Though, scents can carry far, so it'd be hard to pinpoint who is a good potential carrier from who isn't.

I doubt that there's anything systematic considering the third act writing do-overs. Although I'm assuming it's similar to the way some animals can detect cancer which is, as you put it, through smell.

[Darth Tanner]

Except that the zombies also ignored the soldier in Korea for having a limp... a homeless person for being drunk... It makes no sense considering the lengths of 'sniffing' the zombie did of Pitt compared to the zombies charging past other sick people in the city scenes where there was no option for 'sniffing'.

I'm really not sure how you would go about keeping massive zombie attacks a state secret over thousands of years. Especially considering you would go over several generations of different states which would not share the need to cover them up. Hell even the idea that China could keep it hushed up these days is laughable...

[Simon_Jester]

Hm. My saying "it had been kept secret" isn't quite accurate. Sorry about that.

It's more like... in the canon of the survival guide, somehow this fails to be public knowledge universally accepted, understood, and believed. There are listed examples in the past of governments that had very efficient means of controlling zombie problems within their borders (the Romans are supposed to have had a general order to the legions specifically on how to deal with zombie outbreaks, Chinese medical literature discusses it, and feudal Japan supposedly had an order of warriors who did a good enough job to kill off all zombies on the Home Islands). But modern governments, for whatever reason, fail to take the threat seriously and/or make things worse by trying to do military research in an attempt to weaponize zombies.

It helps that the largest outbreaks recorded in modern times were ones that affected isolated small towns. But even so, it does sort of beggar imagination that many such outbreaks could be covered up. And yet in the canon of the survival guide, they were.

[biostem]

The book zombies were also the slow shambler type - so containment wouldn't be as hard.

It seems odd that no soldiers in any army ever put two and two together that being sick to some degree made the zombies ignore you. The example of the soldier with a limp seemed dumb to me, since a limp could be nothing more than a sprain or pulled muscle. I suppose we are meant to handwave the exact method of detection the zombies use...

[applejack]

The book zombies were also the slow shambler type - so containment wouldn't be as hard.

They were also the kind of zombies that craved flesh, which is not how the zombies in the movie act. Not sure why we're talking about the book when it's a very different animal than the movie...

It seems odd that no soldiers in any army ever put two and two together that being sick to some degree made the zombies ignore you. The example of the soldier with a limp seemed dumb to me, since a limp could be nothing more than a sprain or pulled muscle. I suppose we are meant to handwave the exact method of detection the zombies use...

As I pointed out earlier, WWZ was subjected to a major overhaul for its third act. Vanity Fair goes into it a bit. As Darth Tanner noted the soldier had a lame leg and the bum was just plain decrepit. These are visual cues as to the ability of the host to spread the disease effectively, which is what I think the writers were trying to go for originally. I think the zombies were meant to go after people who were not really young, not really old, or not really sickly/lame. That's why they bypass the bum, spare Thomas (probably), spare the soldier with the leg problems, pass the sickly looking kid in Israel and bypass the really old Israeli/Arab guy. The Vanity Fair article says "In one scene in the script, Pitt lagged behind a row of older and sick people who appeared to be a protective shield against the zombie onslaught." I suspect they may have been trying to evoke the feeling of the Spanish Influenza hitting people in their prime but had to change the nature of the zombie infection for a different resolution for the rewritten third act at the WHO facility. So again, I wouldn't really bother trying to figure out an exacting metric for the zombies' infection methodology. Unless, of course, we want to conclude that Thomas (maybe) and the soldier actually had terminal diseases of some sort.

[Darth Tanner]

Even if its just limited to terminal disease there is no mechanism by which humans (undead or not) could detect that, especially inthe final case of Pitt just having injected himself with random disease. It doest make sense that the zombies which are essentially a viral infection would even care if they infect a terminally ill victim or not - by infecting a terminally ill person they essentially cure them of their illness anyway through killing them!

The youtube how it should have ended video highlights the great point that if the zombies are so choosy on their victims why does no one notice that the cities that are overrun are left with thousands of survivors in hospitals, homeless shelters and care homes. Why does it need a single UN expert to travel the world to notice what should be pretty obvious from the fact the survivors can phone you from the overrun cities to let you know their still ok.

The book zombies were also the slow shambler type

Really! I've only briefly read some extracts from the book but the idea that Yonkers happened with shambler zombies just makes it an order of magnitude worse.

[Mr Bean]

Really! I've only briefly read some extracts from the book but the idea that Yonkers happened with shambler zombies just makes it an order of magnitude worse.

Yonkers was 1.2 million shamblers VS about 5,000 soldiers and things went to shit when the General in charge brought enough ammo to fight 50,000 humans not millions of zombies.

[Darth Tanner]

I thought it was more the authors stupidity having tanks firing to no effect and artillery being employed to bombard individual zombies only once they are already charging the infantry line rather than the concentrated rear sections of the hoard.

[madd0ct0r]

Christ, another debate over Yonkers?

It's a story told by an embittered vet with PTSD who blames 'idiot top brass' for their defeat despite superior tech, rather then face possible questions over courage and competence himself.
I don't really see how the analogy to USA misadventures in Vietnam and Iqaq could be made clearer.

[AniThyng]

But don't you see! The US won every battle against the VC!!! They only lost because politicians were gutless. Oh wait, that's the point.

Anyway the tanks were effective. But you realize an Abrams combat load is 40 rounds only.

[Purple]

But don't you see! The US won every battle against the VC!!! They only lost because politicians were gutless. Oh wait, that's the point.

Anyway the tanks were effective. But you realize an Abrams combat load is 40 rounds only.

When fighting shambling zombies the combat load is equal to how many you can run over before needing to refuel. It's not like they can open hatches on a tank.

[biostem]

I thought it was more the authors stupidity having tanks firing to no effect and artillery being employed to bombard individual zombies only once they are already charging the infantry line rather than the concentrated rear sections of the hoard.

I haven't read the book of WWZ, but I have & read The Zombie Survival Guide. In that book, it talks about many instances where people who maintained a calm demeanor and acted sensibly were able to not only survive the encounters, but usually put down the zombies; One particular instance I recall is a woman who only had a bolt action rifle, lured zombies into a narrow alley, and was able to put down all or most of the group, with little difficulty, (mainly because she remained clam and was well trained in how to handle the weapon), and survived the encounter.

[Borgholio]

The battle in the book goes something like this:
Spoiler

The US Army fights as if it were attacking a normal human enemy army. Infantry shooting for the center of mass with 5.56mm ammo instead of aiming for the heads with slower, large caliber rifles, tanks using sabot rounds instead of high explosive, artillery shooting frag rounds instead of high explosive, putting wide barricades at ground level instead of packing into a large building, skyscrapers, or narrow streets, and shooting them as they come in the doorway or chokepoint...things like that. By the end of the book, the Army learns their lessons and uses Civil War style tactics - rows of infantry with large caliber rifles, trained to aim for the head and take their time with the shot.

[Simon_Jester]

I thought it was more the authors stupidity having tanks firing to no effect and artillery being employed to bombard individual zombies only once they are already charging the infantry line rather than the concentrated rear sections of the hoard.

I haven't read the book of WWZ, but I have & read The Zombie Survival Guide. In that book, it talks about many instances where people who maintained a calm demeanor and acted sensibly were able to not only survive the encounters, but usually put down the zombies; One particular instance I recall is a woman who only had a bolt action rifle, lured zombies into a narrow alley, and was able to put down all or most of the group, with little difficulty, (mainly because she remained clam and was well trained in how to handle the weapon), and survived the encounter.

Semi-automatic carbine, but yeah.

Anyway, Yonkers is unrealistic but everyone who's ever read the book or talked about the scene ever knows this.

[Guardsman Bass]

Anyway, Yonkers is unrealistic but everyone who's ever read the book or talked about the scene ever knows this.

Same with some of the other pre-Panic chapters in the book, like the Celebrity Mansion or Not-Karl-Rove - they all feature some heavy satirical elements that don't make them 100% Super-Realistic, assuming you can get anything resembling that in a book with shambling undead resistant to salt water or freezing. I think it's best to think of Brooks taking some liberties so he can make the Zombie Apocalypse happen and get to the meat of the book.

When fighting shambling zombies the combat load is equal to how many you can run over before needing to refuel. It's not like they can open hatches on a tank.

I wonder about that. They had a pretty sizeable horde of zombies, so you might eventually get in trouble trying to drive over them if they're getting packed-in in front of your tank as you moved forward.

I thought it was more the authors stupidity having tanks firing to no effect and artillery being employed to bombard individual zombies only once they are already charging the infantry line rather than the concentrated rear sections of the hoard.

The tanks and artillery had plenty of effect on them. Brooks describes the rockets and fragmentation rounds blowing a bunch of zombies apart, and the tanks/artillery/bradleys' firing is described as a "wood chipper" generating a cloud of body matter. They just didn't have enough rounds, and they wasted them on the first clumps of zombies to come storming through (leaving them in trouble dealing with the long stretching multi-million zombie horde trailing in).

[Sea Skimmer]

Same with some of the other pre-Panic chapters in the book, like the Celebrity Mansion or Not-Karl-Rove - they all feature some heavy satirical elements that don't make them 100% Super-Realistic, assuming you can get anything resembling that in a book with shambling undead resistant to salt water or freezing. I think it's best to think of Brooks taking some liberties so he can make the Zombie Apocalypse happen and get to the meat of the book.

The problem for some of us is how much was made of him claiming to have had multiple military advisors while writing that crap. It was not portrayed at the time of publication as being intended as satire. Not even close.

I wonder about that. They had a pretty sizeable horde of zombies, so you might eventually get in trouble trying to drive over them if they're getting packed-in in front of your tank as you moved forward.

How about no. These are vehicles that can knock over heavy poles set in the earth and dragons teeth without deep foundations, push aside wrecked buses, plow up packed earth with mine rakes at a significant speed and propel themselves up 60% grades. No number of human beings is going to stop them, a solid field of packed humans would not stop a tank directly. At worst people climbing onto the rear deck might clog the air intakes and stall the engine, but that's why you don't operate alone. Also you can traverse the turret to the rear and use the main gun tube to knock people off the rear deck. Seriously a main battle tank is no different then a heavy bulldozer, except that it has a much higher power to weight ratio, and better suspension, and higher gearing, all of which only make it better for this.

The tanks and artillery had plenty of effect on them. Brooks describes the rockets and fragmentation rounds blowing a bunch of zombies apart, and the tanks/artillery/bradleys' firing is described as a "wood chipper" generating a cloud of body matter. They just didn't have enough rounds, and they wasted them on the first clumps of zombies to come storming through (leaving them in trouble dealing with the long stretching multi-million zombie horde trailing in).

At one point the book claims that an MLRS rocket barrage is no longer effective because car gas tanks aren't exploding anymore, as if a car gas tank is more dangerous then hundreds of cluster bombs. Its a bunch of nonsense.

[Black Admiral]

At one point the book claims that an MLRS rocket barrage is no longer effective because car gas tanks aren't exploding anymore, as if a car gas tank is more dangerous then hundreds of cluster bombs. Its a bunch of nonsense.

That would actually be 155mm rounds (which are all ground-bursts for some reason); the reason for MLRS being ineffective is considerably stupider. The available MLRS battery fired off all its ready ammo ... at a dozen zombies (and still didn't kill half of them!).

[Purple]

I wonder about that. They had a pretty sizeable horde of zombies, so you might eventually get in trouble trying to drive over them if they're getting packed-in in front of your tank as you moved forward.

It's a tank. The level of packing that would need to happen is basically someone being stupid enough to just drive forward through a field of millions instead of occasionally reversing and changing his path. And even than, these things are rated to drive through concrete walls.

[Black Admiral]

At one point the book claims that an MLRS rocket barrage is no longer effective because car gas tanks aren't exploding anymore, as if a car gas tank is more dangerous then hundreds of cluster bombs. Its a bunch of nonsense.

That would actually be 155mm rounds (which are all ground-bursts for some reason); the reason for MLRS being ineffective is considerably stupider. The available MLRS battery fired off all its ready ammo ... at a dozen zombies (and still didn't kill half of them!).

Since am outside of the editing window; having checked the book itself, Skimmer's right, and my recollection was incorrect.

[Simon_Jester]

Again, there's really not much point trying to analyze Yonkers. Brooks basically never took into account the effect of large explosions on the human body, undead or otherwise, and he has very little sense for how actual militaries arm and mobilize themselves to fight against massive screaming/shambling hordes of poorly armed random people.

But this has been established ever since the book came out, which was several years ago now.