Homeworld vs Babylon 5

[SCVN 2812]

Since HW vs ST or SW came up, I figured I'd offer a somewhat more fair alternative for HW, Babylon 5.

The Higarans vs Earth Alliance (Crusade era)

[Master of Ossus]

The Earth Alliance or the ISA?

[The Nomad]

With Somtaaw or Bentusi additionnal tech ?

[Raziel]

Since the Hiigarans have the ability to manufacture ALL their ships, fighter right on up to super-cap ships, on the spot, they have a huge hardware advantage over EA.

And even with that ability aside, they lived on a harsh desert planet until finding their homeworld (think Fremen from Dune) and managed to defeat the best the Taidan Empire could throw at them. EA is a gang of street thugs compared to the Empire, since the Empire had dominion over 'hundreds of worlds' rather than the pittance that EA directly controls.

All in all, I'd say that the Hiigarans would win without too much difficulty.

[weemadando]

Since the Hiigarans have the ability to manufacture ALL their ships, fighter right on up to super-cap ships, on the spot, they have a huge hardware advantage over EA.

And even with that ability aside, they lived on a harsh desert planet until finding their homeworld (think Fremen from Dune) and managed to defeat the best the Taidan Empire could throw at them. EA is a gang of street thugs compared to the Empire, since the Empire had dominion over 'hundreds of worlds' rather than the pittance that EA directly controls.

All in all, I'd say that the Hiigarans would win without too much difficulty.

You neglect two key facts:

Newtonian (allegedly) physics means that EA fighter have a massive maneuvreability advantage, not sure about weapon power but...

And the biggie. HW doesn't have character shields. Give Garibaldi and Ivanova Starfuries and they'll take down the mothership in no time.

[SirNitram]

Character shields are irrevelent: You can retry missions until you beat them.

Now that the obligatory bullshit is over, I'll move on.

You can't disregard the physics of one world for the other. HW fighters retain their manueverability, IE, they can flipturn while the Starfuries are still stuck burning until they're around.

And I need say only one thing: Archangel-Class Dreadnought.

[Howedar]

It depends on how fast the war goes. If the B5 forces give the Mothership say, 10 days to prepare, the slaughter would be unimaginable. If they give the Mothership an hour, the EA could win.

[SirNitram]

It depends on how fast the war goes. If the B5 forces give the Mothership say, 10 days to prepare, the slaughter would be unimaginable. If they give the Mothership an hour, the EA could win.

A valid point. Most sci-fi could beat the Mothership as of Mission 1, in which it itself is incomplete, and it's defense force is five scouts. Defeating it, say, at the end of the Bridge Of Sighs mission, or taking on the Somtaaw Command Ship just before hyperspacing into the last mission, is a very different matter.

[Raziel]

Since the Hiigarans have the ability to manufacture ALL their ships, fighter right on up to super-cap ships, on the spot, they have a huge hardware advantage over EA.

And even with that ability aside, they lived on a harsh desert planet until finding their homeworld (think Fremen from Dune) and managed to defeat the best the Taidan Empire could throw at them. EA is a gang of street thugs compared to the Empire, since the Empire had dominion over 'hundreds of worlds' rather than the pittance that EA directly controls.

All in all, I'd say that the Hiigarans would win without too much difficulty.

You neglect two key facts:

Newtonian (allegedly) physics means that EA fighter have a massive maneuvreability advantage, not sure about weapon power but...

And the biggie. HW doesn't have character shields. Give Garibaldi and Ivanova Starfuries and they'll take down the mothership in no time.

I have two words for you: Missile Destroyer

[Raziel]

No edit button! Argh!

I forgot to mention that as the equaliser for character shields, even if they can tear through the fighters.

[Master of Ossus]

B5's biggest problem in these engagements is the relatively low power of their weapons. On the other hand, their weapons do seem to be perfect for cutting through HW ships, as they are mostly energy weapons and do considerable damage to a very small area of a ship (cutting lasers, etc). I think that the advantage goes to HW, due to its higher power weapons and serious industrial capacity, but I really cannot commit either way.

[Howedar]

Are the HW weapons higher power? I see little difference either way.

[SirNitram]

Are the HW weapons higher power? I see little difference either way.

I'm working on calc's... It's hard, as my copy of Homeworld: Cataclysm keeps crashing. I do know 1/7th of an asteroid(Rougly 1.2Km in diameter) was blown off by a single volley of a Somtaaw Destroyer's ion beams.

Now, if only I knew how much energy that took.

[His Divine Shadow]

Babylon 5 beam range, 10.000km
HW beam range 1-10km

Who wins?

[The Nomad]

Babylon 5 beam range, 10.000km
HW beam range 1-10km

Who wins?

Somtaaw fleet. They just hyperspaced behind EA fleet .
And unlike B5 vessels, it is clear that they can attack immediately after FTL jump. Not to mention that with their own primitive hyperespace tech without detailed star charts, they covered 30 000 ly in what, 15 missions ?

Not to mention that at the end of Cataclysm, Somtaaw have shielding tech, anti-energy armour ( level 3 ) for their capital ships ( and frigate ), and Archangel Dreadnoughts and Bentusi crystal-propelled fighters. But in that case we might include one Victory-class superdestroyer.

[The Nomad]

Are the HW weapons higher power? I see little difference either way.

Now, if only I knew how much energy that took.

Watch on SDnet ( highly probable : iron-nickel, since they extract their building materials from those kind ).

Well, total energy for blowing it off : 6.6 gigatons ( 312 kilotons for cratering ), or nearly 1 gigaton ( or less than 50 kiloton for cratering ) for the beam.

How much energy does it take for blowing off a Minbari Black Star ? A shadow cruiser ?

Anyway we shall consider that Hiigarans got many energy weapons, while EA's ships are optimised against kinetic impacts ( plasteel vs polycrystalline armour debate on B5tech ), which means big EA ass kicking ... and Dreadnought and destroyers carry a lot of missiles too ....

Ok, I calm down...

[The Nomad]

Damn it was for hard granite, not nickel-iron !

In that case it takes 12.9 gigaton ( or 8.2 megatons for cratering ) or nearly 2 gigatons ( more than 1 megaton for cratering ) for the beam

[His Divine Shadow]

And unlike B5 vessels, it is clear that they can attack immediately after FTL jump.

Unlike?
I guess you didn't see the Omega Destroyer Agamemnon firing as it was jumping out on a Streib ship?

Not to mention that with their own primitive hyperespace tech without detailed star charts, they covered 30 000 ly in what, 15 missions ?

So? B5 has intragalatic reach too.

Not to mention that at the end of Cataclysm, Somtaaw have shielding tech, anti-energy armour ( level 3 ) for their capital ships ( and frigate ), and Archangel Dreadnoughts and Bentusi crystal-propelled fighters. But in that case we might include one Victory-class superdestroyer.

Their range and speed are still about nothing compared to B5 ranges.

[SirNitram]

Range is easily taken up by tactical use of hyperspace. Firepower and durability remains HW's advantage on the battlefield, and their automation and industrial capacity are easily used to overwhelm.

[weemadando]

Actually, hyperspace would be very dangerous for the HW side as fighters have to dock (or risk being left behind) and all weapon systems are disabled or at least inactive while the ship makes the jump. This leaves a decent opening for EA to attack if they so wish.

[The Nomad]

Actually, hyperspace would be very dangerous for the HW side as fighters have to dock (or risk being left behind) and all weapon systems are disabled or at least inactive while the ship makes the jump. This leaves a decent opening for EA to attack if they so wish.[/b]

With the exception of Bentusi fighters and shield-fighters, nearly all fighters become useless when Archangel-class dreadnoughts and the heavy destroyers become available. Both are more than able to defend themselves against even swarms of fighters/heavy bombers. And they can kill nearly any other heavy unit in 1 minute. Therefore it's not that big disadvantage. If they reappear behind the EA, the main weapons might not be available until they ligned them to the ships, and then KABOOM - no more EA .

Besides, I don't remember that B5 weapons' range was so high. When they fired 10 000 km away ( on the SPK IIRC ), someone mentioned that it wouldn't do any damage, and then someone told to approach to fire range, isn't it ? And when Shadow fighters attacked B4, the fire range of the Whitestar was inferior to 3000 km. Sure, B5 weapons might have longer ranges than HW's ones, but I don't think they're more than a few dozen km, perhaps a few hundred maximum. Hyperespace, Somtaaw comrades !!

[SirNitram]

I disagree with 'Fighters Are Useless Once Arch's Are Around' on two grounds. First, the true fighter-slayer is the Multi-Beam Frigate. These will ass-rape Starfuries, I'm sorry. Starfuries, while a slightly more realistic design than the Somtaaw Acolyte, are less maneuverable when observed. And not even Recon's can survive a group of MBF's.

Second, the majority of fighters retain some use always. Recon's are a must when using the Siege Cannon. Mimic's are ALWAYS devastating(Oh yes.. What's EA gonna do when their own ships suddenly ram each other in massive detonations?). Leechs are always fun. And the commander who abandons the Hive Frigate for supercapitals will soon learn his folly.

[Howedar]

Oh my, mimics would cause unholy hell against the EA.

[Master of Ossus]

And unlike B5 vessels, it is clear that they can attack immediately after FTL jump.

Unlike?
I guess you didn't see the Omega Destroyer Agamemnon firing as it was jumping out on a Streib ship?

Or the Minbari at the Battle of the Line, or the Centauri when they destroyed the Narn Dreadnaught with one shot during the failed peace mission in ItB.

[The Nomad]

And from where come those claims that most B5 vessels can't fight efficiently just after a jump? From my ass ?
Of course there are exceptions. If you watch, say, trek, inconsistencies happen all the time. That's what feed so much debates. But the fact that HW vessels are efficient immediatly after a fight is not to be debated, it is a fact ( ask my CPU , I just ass-kicked it yesterday in MP ).