Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Simon_Jester
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ahriman238 wrote:Breaking open In Enemy Hands, where Honor is captured by the Peeps. Not much of a spoiler when it's the title. The first time I read this I remember it really sinking in that this was Horatio Hornblower in space, because it reminded me so very much of Hornblower, the Duchess, and the Devil. Well, I'd seen the connection before, obviously, it was just here that I was thinking "Now they're going 1:1 on Forester. I bet in the next book she has to deal with a crazy superior."
On the other hand, Hornblower's experiences in captivity were very different.
Dictator problems, worse than First World problems. Alright, it's a fair point that a revolutionary government needs legitimacy in a bad way, but he's had several years to work at the problem and there's still the odd counter-revolution or coup attempt?
Regular shifts of power went on for over a decade after the original pro-democracy French Revolution, culminating in Napoleon's military dictatorship. A lot of Third World countries have had this problem too, on a huge scale. Once you've overthrown the government by force, you can't breathe easy for at least a generation, sometimes more if there are whole ethnic groups or social classes that were antagonized by your taking power.
Rob understands the consequences of the purges, the commissars and "collective responsibility" he just imagines he has no choice but to use the terror tools.
It'd debateable whether he actually did. The Legislaturalist faction in the armed forces was basically untouched by the Harris assassination, and without a purge of the fleet, it would have approached certainty that someone like Parnell would have sought a cease-fire with Manticore in order to turn his armed forces on the Committee. Especially since the Committee's party line was that the Navy had been responsible for the assassinations.
I admit this has confused me in the past. The Committee has never been shy about disparaging the corrupt, elitist regime of the Legislaturists, or praising the Glorious Revolution but... they won't take actual responsibility for the decapitation strike that punched out the Harris regime. That remains the work of the cowardly and treacherous military.
Because they don't want to look like they treacherously seized power? Same reason the Bolsheviks tried not to talk about the provisional government that held power between the February Revolution (the one that overthrew the Czar in favor of parliament) and the October revolution (which overthrew parliament in favor of the Communist Party).
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Terralthra
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Ahriman238 wrote:Okay, there are a lot of groups who would be king. Between the last book and this one the Levelers attempt a coup that very nearly succeeds.
This coup attempt is also what got Admiral Esther McQueen the nickname "Citizen Admiral Cluster Bomb," which is never the sort of thing that represents "the love of the common folk."
Ahriman238 wrote:I admit this has confused me in the past. The Committee has never been shy about disparaging the corrupt, elitist regime of the Legislaturists, or praising the Glorious Revolution but... they won't take actual responsibility for the decapitation strike that punched out the Harris regime. That remains the work of the cowardly and treacherous military.
The military having executed the assassination attempt was the reason the public was given for "the Committee" taking over in the first place. without that, it's likely Parnell would've been able to stabilize the situation, being a scion of a well-respected Legislaturalist family. If they're already fighting off coup attempts and uprisings, admitting "oh, btw, the military was totes innocent; we killed the President and blamed them for it, then used it as an excuse to take power," will...not help.

Ahriman238 wrote:Javier Giscard, mastermind of last book's commerce raids, is still in the dog house but isn't going to be shot. Today, anyway. And poor Theisman, his name is on the Commitee's lips. But I am much amused that he emerged from Operation Dagger (Fourth Yeltsin) "with a reputation as a fighter." However, he's too carefully apolitical, which speaks volumes of his discontent with the status quo.
Of course he came out with a reputation as a fighter. Citizen Commissioner LePic's post-Operation Dagger report said something like:
After Citizen Admiral Thurston blundered into energy range of the enemy superdreadnought force and was completely annihilated, Citizen Admiral Theisman had to be ordered, multiple times, not to engage the enemy force (which had previously wiped out a force numerically double Theisman's own command), despite the fact that Operation Dagger had already failed to accomplish its primary goals. He appeared completely confident in his ability to defeat said superdreadnought-led force, describing a tactical plan in detail that purportedly would've given him a tactical victory.
If you weren't familiar with the tactical situation/naval tactics enough to figure out the situation from a briefing, and you got that in your inbox, what would you label the guy? He'd go into my files as "ferocious bulldog" and set loose in situations where I needed someone who'd set course for the sound of cannon. More or less like Tourville, really.
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Ahriman238
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

Eighth Fleet would be the first Allied fleet which was actually composed of more non-Manticoran than RMN units. Given the "seniority" of the Manticoran Navy, there'd never been much question that the RMN would provide the fleet commander, but a good two-thirds of its starships would be drawn from the explosively expanding GSN and the far smaller Erewhon Navy. As such, White Haven, as CO 8 FLT (Designate), really had no choice but to build his staff around a Grayson core, and he'd spent the last month and a half doing just that.
White Haven has come to Grayson to set up the new Eighth Fleet, a major offensive force that will be made up mostly of Grayson ships and personnel, with serious contributions from Manticore and Erewhon.

Ah. It's probably high time we talked about Erewhon. The Republic of Erewhon is the third largest member of the Manticoran Alliance, and essentially the only member besides Grayson to add serious economic and military value, instead of being a weight of obligations the Manties accepted in exchange for a strategic position and some depth. Erewhon is also a Wormhole Junction, with two wormholes, one ending inside the Solarian League, and one far from large powers, but maybe a day's flight from one of Manticore's wormholes. Having a Junction brings them incredible wealth for a single system, even if they're not playing in Manticore's league. And if their Navy is a distant second to Glorious Kerbal Grayson's energetic efforts, they can protect their own system just fine and still contribute ships to the war effort.

Erewhon was originally settled by organized crime cartels, who fronted through the government and a variety of shell companies before finally going (mostly) legit. Eventually they stabilized at five families that wield near-absolute power, though one or two are often kicked out for a few years, the pendulum always swings the other way in time. Actually, the remaining families are all those who could cooperate and function as a society, and they (and, it seems, most Erewhonese) have a Mafia Don's concept of the importance of honor. Which is at least a welcome change from Klingons.

Yeah, they are developed some beyond "planet of the goodfellas" but not that much. So far. Which is why I imagine all Erewhon officers speaking with Frank Sinatra's voice. Government officials naturally sound like Marlon Brando in the dentist's chair.

All in all, he'd been impressed by what he'd discovered in the process. The GSN's expansion had spread its officer corps thin—indeed, something like twelve percent of all "Grayson" officers were actually Manticorans on loan from the Star Kingdom—and its institutional inexperience showed, but it was almost aggressively competent. Grayson squadron and task force commanders seemed to take nothing at all for granted, for they knew how quickly most of their officers had been pushed up to their present ranks. They drilled their subordinates mercilessly, and their tactical and maneuvering orders spelled out their intentions with a degree of precision which sometimes produced results that were a little too mechanical for White Haven's taste. He was more accustomed to the Manticoran tradition in which officers of a certain rank were supposed to handle the details themselves, without specific direction from higher authority. Yet he was willing to admit that a navy as "young" as the GSN probably required more detailed orders . . . and if Grayson fleet maneuvers were sometimes mechanical, he'd never seen the kind of raggedness which could creep in when a flag officer assumed—incorrectly—that his subordinates understood what he had in mind.

But if the earl sometimes wished Grayson admirals would grant their subordinates a little more initiative, he'd been both astounded and delighted by the GSN's relentless emphasis on actual shipboard drills, not just computer simulations, and their willingness to expend munitions in live-fire exercises. RMN tradition favored the same approach, but the Manticoran Admiralty had always been forced to fight Parliament tooth and nail for the funding it required. High Admiral Matthews, the GSN's military commander-in-chief, on the other hand, had the enthusiastic support of Protector Benjamin and a solid majority of the Planetary Chamber, Steadholder and Steader alike. Perhaps that support owed something to the fact that the current war with Haven had brought deep-space combat to Yeltsin's Star four times in less than eight T-years, whereas no one had dared attack the Manticore Binary System directly in almost three centuries, but White Haven suspected that it owed an equal debt to the woman he and his companions had gathered to welcome home.
Grayson has some problems, including that the whole navy was destroyed and resurrected from the ground up less than a decade ago. But they understand their problems and work diligently to correct them.

White Haven himself was deeply respected by the Grayson Navy and people, for he was the officer who'd overseen the conquest of their fratricidal sister world of Masada and won the Third Battle of Grayson to open the war with Haven, but he remained a "foreigner." Honor Harrington didn't. She had become one of their own, and in the process, whether she knew it or not, she'd also become the patron saint of their fleet.

She probably didn't know it, White Haven reflected. It wasn't the sort of thing which would occur to her . . . which no doubt helped explain why it was true. But White Haven and every other Manticoran working with the GSN certainly knew. How could they not? The ultimate touchstone for every Grayson training concept or tactical innovation could be contained in the three words "Lady Harrington says" or their companion "Lady Harrington would." The near idolatry with which the GSN had adopted the precepts and example of a single individual, however competent, would have been terrifying if that individual's fundamental philosophy had not included the need to continuously question her own concepts. Somehow, and White Haven wasn't certain precisely how, Honor Harrington had also managed to transmit that portion of her personality to the navy so enthusiastically forming itself in her image, and he was profoundly grateful that she had.
Some time has gone by, but saving a planet twice still brings serious kudos. As has the considerable hand Honor had in shaping their tactical doctrine as the number two woman in their navy.

The RMN had been forced long ago to evolve special rules for the rare instances in which it had to deal with a pregnant treecat who'd bonded to one of its personnel. That was why Honor had been reassigned to the Manticore Binary System eight months ago on her return from the Silesian Confederacy. It both got Samantha away from radiation hazards and other risks associated with service in space and put her within easy reach of Sphinx and her own or Nimitz's clan. Of course, the fact that Samantha had never adopted Honor in the usual sense had put her case outside normal parameters to begin with, but the death of the person she had adopted had left Nimitz and Honor as her sole family. In the wake of that devastating loss, the Admiralty had decided, Honor qualified for the maternity leave normally granted to both halves of an adoption bond. Besides, it had given them a chance to assign her to the Weapons Development Board for the duration of said leave. She'd been an obvious choice to give the Board feedback on how well its latest brainchildren had worked in the field, since she was the only person who'd ever commanded a squadron—albeit only one of armed merchant cruisers—equipped with them, and to her own surprise, she'd actually enjoyed the duty.
Honor's maternity leave for Nimitz's mate. Mostly though, I wanted to establish that it's been eight months since the last book and that Honor's spent the time working for the WDB refining the weapons and toys Wayfarer had. Making this 1911, eleven years since Honor first took command of Fearless, six years since the war started.

Since even a small, unarmed, bare-bones civilian starship cost about seventy million dollars, the idea of purchasing one had seemed extravagant, to say the least. But as Willard had pointed out, she was worth over three and a half billion by now, and if she bought the ship as a corporate asset of her Grayson-headquartered Sky Domes, Ltd., she would owe no licensing fees (in light of her steadholder's status), while the purchase would provide a substantial tax write-off in the Star Kingdom. Not only that, he'd been able to negotiate a very attractive price with the Hauptman Cartel for an only slightly used vessel much larger and more capable than she'd thought possible. And, he'd argued persuasively, her growing financial empire required more and more trips back and forth between Yeltsin's Star and Manticore by her various managers and factors. The flexibility and independence from passenger liner schedules which a privately owned vessel would provide would grow only more useful as time passed.

And so, to her considerable bemusement, she'd returned to Grayson not aboard an RMN or GSN cruiser or destroyer and not accompanied by a single treecat. Instead, she'd returned in state aboard the fifty-k-ton, private registry Star Falcon-class yacht RMS Paul Tankersley accompanied by fourteen treecats, and somewhere in the course of the voyage, she'd realized what she was really doing.

-snip-

Honor smiled wryly as Katherine Mayhew broke off in midsentence. She'd considered sending word ahead, but Tankersley was a fast ship. The Star Falcons were a civilian version of what had been a military/diplomatic courier vessel used to transport dispatches or relatively small groups of passengers when speed was of the essence. Tankersley would never make an efficient freight carrier, but her speed meant that even the fastest mail ship would only have provided the Graysons with a day or two of warning of the 'cat invasion.
Honor buys a fast space yacht so she can fly between Manticore and Grayson at will, and thumb her nose at the RMN's insistence she not take a dozen treecats aboard one of their ships. Apparently it's nearly as fast as a dispatch boat. Oh, and Nimitz told the other treecats of his clan all about the war, and they voted to colonize space to increase survivability, hence why Honor is taking fourteen treecats to Grayson.

Unfortunately, these days Grayson's social elite were as confused about what constituted proper behavior as any outsider. They were trying. White Haven had to give them that, and he rather admired how much they'd achieved in such a short period, but there was an underlying air of uncertainty. Some of society's grande dames resented the changes in the rules they'd learned as girls even more than the unreconstructed male conservatives resented their loss of privilege. Those groups formed a sort of natural alliance that clustered somewhere just beyond the reception line and radiated a prickly intensity as they clung grimly to the old rules and forms . . . which, of course, brought them into direct collision with their (mainly) younger counterparts who had embraced the notion of female equality with militant fervor.

Personally, White Haven found the more enthusiastic reformers more wearing than the reactionaries. He couldn't fault their motives, but the fact was that Benjamin IX had imposed a top-down revolution on his home world. He was remaking what had been, whatever its faults, a stable social order which had changed only slowly and incrementally over the last six or seven hundred years. With a very few exceptions, that social order's current members had only the vaguest notion of where they were headed, and many of the reformers seemed to believe stridency could substitute for direction. The earl was confident that most of them would get over it—they'd only been at it for a few years, and they were bound to figure some of it out with time—but at the moment, their main function at social gatherings seemed to be to make everyone else uncomfortable by aggressively demonstrating their rejection of the old order.

And, of course, the conflict between the old guard and the new put White Haven and other Manticorans squarely in a crossfire. The reactionaries regarded the foreigners as the sources of the infection which had attacked all they knew and held dear, while the reformers took it for granted that the Manticorans must agree with them . . . even though it was painfully obvious that all the reformers didn't agree with one another! Walking that sort of tightrope without giving offense—or, at least, further offense—to someone was almost as exhausting as it was irritating, and White Haven was heartily tired of it.
The complexities of Grayson high society.

Ron Bergren, the Havenite foreign secretary under the old Legislaturalist government, had been the only member of Sidney Harris' cabinet to escape the massacre of the PRH's so-called military coup attempt. He'd survived for the simple reason that, at the time, he'd been in transit to Old Earth to explain to the Solarian League that the war with Manticore hadn't really been started by the Peeps, however things might look. Upon learning of the coup, he'd declared his enthusiastic loyalty to the Committee of Public Safety . . . and found as many reasons as possible why neither he, his wife, nor their three children should return to the People's Republic. That was probably wise of him, given the fact that over ninety percent of the members of the great Legislaturalist families had been executed or exiled to prison planets by the People's Courts, and he'd been helped by the fact that Old Earth was over eighteen hundred light-years from the Haven System.

The Manticore Wormhole Junction was closed to Peep traffic for obvious reasons, and the Cromarty Government had scored an enormous diplomatic triumph when it added the Erewhon Republic to the Manticoran Alliance seven years ago. Erewhon was only a single-system polity, but like the Star Kingdom itself, though on a lesser scale, it was far wealthier than any single system could normally expect to be, for it just happened to control the only other wormhole terminus connecting to League space from within twelve hundred light-years of the Peeps' capital. There'd been a degree of economic rivalry between Erewhon and Manticore in the past, but both of them had recognized the threat Haven posed to them, and Erewhon's admission to the Alliance had closed the Erewhon Wormhole to the Peeps. That meant even Peep courier boats, which routinely rode the upper edge of hyper-space's theta bands, required well over six months for the trip to Old Earth, whereas a courier from Manticore could reach the mother world in barely a week.

The diplomatic advantages for the Star Kingdom were obvious, but those for Ron Bergren personally were almost as great. He was well beyond the Committee's reach but already in place in Old Earth's diplomatic structure, where he'd represented the interests of his new masters with diligence and industry (after all, he still had relatives back home), and any attempt to recall him against his will could only result in his requesting political asylum from the League . . . or defecting to Manticore.
Bergen, I'd forgotten all about that guy. Some more stellar distances, Haven to the League Border, the nearest Erewhonese and Manticoran wormhole mouths. You can think of shutting the wormholes as the equivalent of cutting the transatlantic cable, but it doesn't seem to be quite enough edge for Manticore to overcome the average Sollies' kneejerk "Republics are good. Kingdoms are bad." reflex.

And for all its undeniable size and power, the League was a rather ramshackle proposition in many ways. It might be called the Solarian League, but in actual fact Old Earth was simply first among equals, for every member world held a seat on the Executive Council . . . and each Council delegate held the right of veto. By long tradition, that veto right was used only rarely on domestic issues for two reasons. First, the League ministers' awareness that their policies could be vetoed by a single objector had for generations inspired them to recommend only center of the road domestic policies they could be fairly certain would command a broad consensus. And, second, any member world which used its veto right frivolously soon discovered that its fellows had any number of means of unilateral retaliation.

But if the League's domestic policies were coherent, its military and foreign policies were another matter, for it was far harder to forge a consensus on the diplomatic front. Much of that stemmed from the League's sheer size and power. Even the vast military machine the People's Republic had forged was less than a fourth the size of the League Navy, and the League's industrial base probably equaled that of all the rest of humanity combined. As a consequence, it was very difficult for anyone to convince the League's member worlds that anyone or anything represented a credible threat to them, and that sublime confidence was disastrous when it came to creating a harmonious foreign policy. The consequences of domestic policy decisions had a direct, perceptible impact upon the standard of living League citizens enjoyed; the absence of a rational foreign policy did not, and so each member world felt free to press for its own idiosyncratic ideal of "proper" policy . . . or simply to ignore the entire matter. And delegates to the Executive Council were far more likely to use their veto power to prevent "dangerous foreign adventures" than to cross their fellows on domestic matters.

That was why the Cromarty Government had been forced eventually to put the technology embargo in purely economic terms. The Star Kingdom had been less than subtle in the pressure applied, but nothing less than a threat to close the Manticore Junction to all League-registered shipping and to impose punishing duties on all League cargoes traveling in Manticoran bottoms had been sufficient to get the Council's attention. Cromarty had been perfectly well aware that such strong-arm tactics would generate resentment, but he'd also been convinced he had no other choice.

They'd worked . . . and they'd also produced even more resentment than he'd expected. Not only did many League leaders regard such a tough stance as a personal and diplomatic affront, but Cromarty's analysts had failed to appreciate quite how much money the Peeps would offer for League technology. Once combat made the Star Kingdom's edge obvious, even a financially strapped empire like the People's Republic had managed to come up with immense payments for anyone willing to sell them what they needed. For the League's arms merchants, being required to forgo that lucrative income was even more of an affront than Manticore's negotiating tactics, and from the evidence ONI had assembled, it seemed painfully apparent that someone in the League had decided to violate the embargo's restrictions after all.
The tech embargo and the League government. Well, it's more complicated than that. The League's foudners, for reasons unknown, were terrified of a "tyranny of the legislature" and so gave every member of the government the power to shut down anything. Of course, decisions still have to be made, so a dizzying number of beaurcracies and government agencies effectively rule, each with their own agenda. The League is quietly ruled by a commitee of five Permanent Senior Undersecretaries.

Equally apparently, the leak in the embargo spurted both ways, for a source within the League Navy reported that the League's R&D types were now experimenting with their own version of the short-range FTL com system which was one of the RMN's most valuable tactical advantages. Their success was extremely limited to date, but they were headed in the right direction, and the progress they'd made, not to mention the basic concepts upon which their efforts appeared to be based, suggested that someone had been sharing data with them.
With the benefit of hindsight, I know it will take the League over a decade to get just to the point of morse-like pulses as in Honor of the Queen.

"The seeking systems in Peep missiles have gotten much better in a very short period of time. We had a thirty to forty percent edge when the war began; BuWeaps estimates that our superiority's dropped to no more than ten percent at present. Fortunately, our countermeasures and general electronic warfare capability have continued to improve at a faster rate than theirs, so the effective relative increase in their missile accuracy is 'only' on the order of twenty percent, but that's still not good. Also," her eyes darkened, "we've had unconfirmed reports that the Peeps have begun deploying missile pods of their own."
Margin of Mantie missile seeker superiority a the start of the war. I suppose they measure that in hits out of birds fired? Anyways, with Sollie tech Manticore only has a 10% edge. They're still not taking hits on an equal basis, because Manticore is blazing new trails in ECM, but the margin of superiority is shrinking which is a problem because Haven is still vast.

Oh, and it took them six years, but Haven is using pods too now.

"whether they're developing pods or not, general increases in their systems efficiency are turning up in almost every area. Fortunately, our latest estimates indicate that we have a certain margin of superiority even over the more recently introduced League hardware, but it's far thinner than the one we enjoy over the Peeps. It may be enough if we continue to exploit it aggressively, especially in view of the long turnaround time on any data or equipment flow between the League and the Peeps, and BuWeaps and the WDB hope to do just that. There's also been quite a bit of discussion with BuShips about ways we might be able to shoehorn more EW capability into our hulls without cutting into weapons volume, but it looks like we're beginning to reach a point of diminishing returns in that regard. That's one reason BuWeaps has been pushing the Ghost Rider Project so hard for the last T-year."

She glanced at the earl, who nodded in understanding. "Ghost Rider" was the code name assigned to what would hopefully turn out to be a whole new generation of electronic warfare. If things worked out as planned, the needed capabilities would be built into drone bodies, providing an EW capability which could be deployed in multiple, independent platforms. Ideally, a ship would be able to put out shells of drones, relatively simple-minded and limited compared to shipboard systems, but with each operating in a different mode to give much greater overall capability than onboard systems which might be more powerful but could operate in only a single mode at any one time.

"While I was with the Board, I saw some encouraging long-range reports on Ghost Rider," Honor went on after a moment. "The only hardware actually in the production pipeline are the new decoy missiles and the stealthed missile pods, and it'll be some time before any of the other goodies reach deployment status. I think Vice Admiral Adcock is right about how much the project will enhance our capabilities—eventually—but for now, the PN has definitely cut into our advantage."
First mention of Project Ghost Rider, the next-gen sensor/EW project. Because they're hitting diminishing returns on miniaturizing their computer tech, they're going to develop revolutionary smart EW drones and platforms that they can delegate a lot of the number crunching to. And better stealthy recon drones to expand their sensor capabilities. And the stealthy missile pods, "Dragon's Teeth" EW missiles that look a lot like 10 missiles and can draw off point-defense... yeah, Ghost Rider has a lot on it's plate.

"And their building rates are going up," White Haven muttered, and she nodded once more, her eyes very serious.

"That they are, My Lord. The total number of new hulls per month has continued to decline, but that's only because we've taken so many yards away from them. The yards they have left are showing a marked increase in output. They're turning out individual new ships much more quickly, even though their overall loss of yard space means they can build fewer of them simultaneously. Again, part of that increase could result from technology transfers, but it's more likely that it stems from more effective personnel management. Their building rates went into the toilet when they started drafting Dolists into the yards, but that trend has reversed in the past year or so. I think ONI is right that the reversal indicates both that their original, effectively unskilled labor force is learning to do its job more efficiently and that popular support for the war remains high, which produces a motivated work force. Without really substantial technology imports from the League, the limitations of their physical plant should keep them from matching our construction rates, but they're going to come a lot closer than they used to be able to."
Hmmm... five years ago Manticore and haven were neck and neck for production of wallers, with no sign that either side would improve soon. Now Haven is doing far better, but Manticore has a slight edge. I see in this the hands of Glorious Kerbal Graysons.

"Finally, all the available evidence suggests that it was the Navy which actually stopped them. Public Information insists it was State Security, Committee Security, the Public Order Police, and the Chairman's Guard, supported by the Navy, but all of our other sources suggest it was the other way around. The security forces certainly didn't just lie down and play dead, but their responses weren't coherent. ONI suggests that someone must have managed to compromise their command and control net, though we haven't been able to confirm that. But whatever happened, it was Navy kinetic strikes and air strikes and battle-armored Marines acting under Admiral McQueen's orders that broke the uprising's back, and McQueen didn't go on to take out the Committee herself. That indicates a higher degree of military backing for the Pierre regime than we'd earlier estimated, and the reports that McQueen's been offered a seat on the Committee should only make that backing even stronger."

"So what you're saying," White Haven summarized when she paused once more, "is that the provinces have been brought into line, civilian resistance in the capital has been crushed, and the military has signed on?"

"Pretty much," Honor agreed, "though I don't think I'd put it precisely that way. I'd say that a particular segment of the civilian population of the capital was crushed. Given the amount of carnage and collateral casualties inflicted in the process, I suspect the bulk of the Dolists have decided to support the Committee as a source of stability which may be able to keep similar things from happening again. That goes quite a bit beyond the notion of civilians simply cowed into obedience by an iron fist, My Lord."
ONIs thoughts on Haven's stability after the last coup attempt that nearly succeeded.

"I realize that your stint on the Board was brief, Milady, but just look at some of its proposals." He ticked the points off on the fingers of his raised hand. "First, it wants us to radically redesign our ships of the wall to produce a totally untested class. Next, it wants us to accelerate the construction of light attack craft, when we've demonstrated just about conclusively that even modern LACs are no match, ton-for-ton, for properly designed starships, even in a defensive role. Then it wants us to divert something like ten percent of our building capacity from superdreadnoughts and dreadnoughts—and this, mind you, at a time when the Peeps' building rates in those same classes are going up—to build these so-called 'LAC-carriers' in order to transport light attack craft across interstellar distances as offensive units, not defensive ones. Not content with that, it wants to strip the missile tubes out of our existing ships of the wall and replace them with launchers which will use up twelve percent more weapons volume and fire missiles whose size effectively reduces magazine capacity by eighteen percent?" He shook his head.

"No, Milady. This isn't just changing horses in midstream; this is jumping off your horse without making sure you have another one to land on, and you don't do that in the middle of a war. Not if you want to win that war. This sounds too much like a Sonja Hemphill wish list for me to endorse it."
White Haven is not well-pleased by the latest plans from the Weapons Development Board, after they finished digesting Honor's report and suggestions from her cruise. Alright, LAC carriers sound pretty silly if you haven't seen the latest LACs. Of course, this time Hamish barely skimmed the report before throwing it away in disgust at Hemphill's tinkering. The guy didn't even ask why the missile launchers and missiles needed to be so much bigger.

And now Honor takes him to task.

"For example, the LACs to which you object are an entirely new model, with improvements even the ones I took to Silesia didn't have. The new compensators will make them much faster than anything else in space; BuShips has found a way to upgrade their beta nodes almost to alpha node strength, which will give them far stronger sidewalls than any previous LAC; and the new designs incorporate extremely powerful energy armaments—grasers, not lasers—in a spinal mount configuration. They won't be designed for broadside combat at all; their function will be to approach hostile starships obliquely, denying the enemy any down-the-throat shot until they close to decisive range, then turn simultaneously to attack single targets en masse. In many respects, it will be a reversion to the old wet-navy aircraft carrier . . . and with a lot of the same advantages for the LAC-carrier. It can deploy its assets from outside missile range, attack, and get out without ever coming under threat from a conventionally armed defender. And whether you and I like it or not, Lady Hemphill does have a point about LAC's expendability. They're so small and carry such small crews that we can trade a dozen of them for a heavy cruiser and come out ahead—not just in tonnage terms, but in loss of life, as well.


The concept that will ultimately be the Shrike-class LAC. It's built around a BC graser, so it closes wedge side towards the enemy, then swings in and delivers a BC graser and a handful of light missiles. A few dozen are a serious threat even to a waller.

"Next, the new ships of the wall you object to are a logical extrapolation of the armament I had in Silesia. Where, I might remind you, Sir, my squadron, operating as single units outside any mutual support range, captured or destroyed an entire pirate squadron—plus a Peep light cruiser, two heavy cruisers, and a pair of battlecruisers—for the loss of a single armed merchant cruiser. Certainly building a superdreadnought around a hollow core would be a radical departure, and BuShips agrees that the new design will result in some reduction in structural strength. But it will also allow each SD to carry just over five hundred ten-missile pods and fire a salvo of six of them every twelve seconds. That's over five thousand missiles, at the rate of three hundred per minute, from a single ship which will sacrifice about thirty percent of its conventional armament to fit them in. I might also point out that the Ghost Rider remote platforms will make their pods even more useful, since it will allow the new design to deploy a complete, multilayered shell in a single salvo. Moreover, the new missile ships and the LAC-carriers between them will divert only twenty-five percent of the yard capacity currently devoted to conventional ships of the wall, assuming the recommended WDB ship mix is adopted.
Podnoughts! Also, 5,000 pods in the back of a podnought. :mrgreen:

"And as far as the new missiles are concerned, My Lord, did you even look at the performance parameters before you decided they were more of 'Horrible Hemphill's wish list'?" Honor demanded, unable to hide her exasperation.

"Certainly she came up with the concept, but R&D took it and ran with it. We're talking about a 'multistage' missile—one with three separate drives, which will give us a degree of tactical flexibility no previous navy could even dream of! We can preprogram the drives to come on-line with any timing and at any power setting we wish! Simply programming them to activate in immediate succession at maximum power would give us a hundred and eighty seconds of powered flight . . . and a powered attack range from rest of over fourteen and a half million kilometers with a terminal velocity of point-five-four cee. Or we can drop the drives' power settings to forty-six thousand gees and get five times the endurance—and a maximum powered missile envelope of over sixty-five million klicks with a terminal velocity of point-eight-one light-speed. That's a range of three-point-six light-minutes, and we can get even more than that if we use one or two 'stages' to accelerate the weapon, let it ride a ballistic course to a preprogrammed attack range, and then bring up the final 'stage' for terminal attack maneuvers at a full ninety-two thousand gravities. I don't know about you, My Lord, but I'll sacrifice eighteen percent of my total missile load for that performance envelope!"
Multi-drive missiles (MDMs) make missile ranges theoretically unlimited, and in practice still many time the other sides. Combine with the ability for a single podnought to launch a 300 or 600 bird salvo and... :twisted: Oh, and Mantie minaturaization is so good now, they can shoehorn three drives into a missile and increase it's size only about 20%.

There was no question in his mind that he'd been right to fight Hemphill's efforts to introduce things like the grav lance or the pure energy torpedo armament into general service, and God only knew where things might have ended if she'd been allowed to implement her "spinal mount" main armament concept for ships of the wall! The idea of a capital ship which had no choice but to cross its own "T" for an enemy in order to engage it still made him cringe, and, he was certain, it would have the same effect on his hostess.

But that didn't alter the accuracy of her indictment. What would be madness in a ship of the wall might make perfectly good sense in something as small, agile—and (however little he might like it) expendable—as a LAC, and he hadn't even considered it. Nor had he made sufficient allowance for what the new central-core missile pod systems had allowed Harrington to accomplish in Silesia when he dismissed the concept's applicability to "real" warships. And, worst of all, he hadn't even bothered to look at the drive numbers on the new missiles or recognize their implications. And all of it, he admitted with still deeper chagrin, had stemmed from his instinctive, unreasoning, gut-level rejection of any project with which Sonja Hemphill was connected. Which meant he'd just exercised exactly the same knee-jerk reaction to technological change, albeit in the opposite direction, for which he'd always lambasted the jeune école.
Hamish (White Haven) realizes he's been hasty. I'm trying to imagine Hemphill pitching spinal mounts of wallers.

But if Nimitz couldn't see the potential disaster looming ahead, Honor certainly could. White Haven wasn't simply her superior officer; he was also Eighth Fleet's designated CO, while she was slated to command one of his squadrons. That put them in the same chain of command, which meant anything at all between them would be a violation of Article 119, and that was a court-martial offense for officers. Even worse, he was married—and not to just anyone. Lady Emily Alexander had been the Star Kingdom's most beloved HD actress before the terrible freak air car accident which had turned her into a permanent invalid. Even today, locked forever into a life-support chair and reduced essentially to the use of one hand and arm, she remained one of Manticore's foremost writer-producers . . . and one of its leading poets, as well.
Ham is impressed by Honor's standing up to him, and has a sudden realization that she's a formidable and pretty young woman (well, young to him, but Hamish is over 90) which Honor and Nimitz can't help but notice.

Odd that she'd think about his wife, as we establish later that Manticore is totally fine with polygamy as long as it's between aware and consenting adults.

The inhabitants of Grayson were nothing if not determined. Among other things, theirs was the only planet in the explored galaxy which had retained the ancient Gregorian calendar, despite the fact that it was totally unsuited to their planetary day or year. If anyone was likely to have preserved a traditional breakfast food in the midst of colonizing a disastrously hostile planet with a pathetically crippled tech base, they were certainly the people to do it.
Grayson, one of only three planets in the known universe to play baseball, the only to keep the old Earth calendar, has also preserved waffles. Purely because they're traditional.

"You're wondering why I don't look like a pre-space blimp, aren't you, My Lord?" she teased gently.

"I— That is—" White Haven blushed. Her direct, smiling question had caught him without a graceful response, and his blush deepened at her soft laugh.

"Don't worry, My Lord. Mike Henke teases me about it all the time, and the explanation's simple enough. I'm a genie."

The earl blinked briefly, his expression totally blank, then nodded in sudden understanding. It was considered extremely impolite to use the term "genie" to describe someone, but given Harrington's neurosurgeon father and—especially—geneticist mother, she was probably more comfortable with the label than many. For that matter, the prejudice against genetically engineered humans was slowly dying out as the last memories of Old Earth's Final War faded from the racial forebrain. But there had been no such prejudice in the early days of the Diaspora, and quite a few colonies had been established by genies specifically designed for their new environments.

"I wasn't aware of that, Milady," he said after a moment.

"We don't talk about it much, but I'd guess the majority of Sphinxians are genies by now," she replied. He raised a polite eyebrow, and she shrugged. "Think about it," she suggested. "Heavy-grav planets are one of the most common 'hostile' environments. You know that even today most heavy-worlders have shorter than average life expectancies?" She looked at White Haven again, and he nodded. "That's because even with modern medicine you can't put a body designed for a single gravity onto a one-point-three or one-point-five-gravity planet and expect it to function properly. I, on the other hand—"

She made a graceful gesture with one hand, and he nodded slowly. "I knew about the modifications for Quelhollow, but those are much more readily apparent than what you seem to be talking about," he observed.

"Well, Quelhollow had some other environmental concerns, whereas my ancestors were more of a . . . generic design, I suppose. Basically, my muscle tissue is about twenty-five percent more efficient than a 'pure human's,' and there are a few changes to my respiratory and circulatory systems, plus some skeletal reinforcement. The idea was to fit us for heavy-grav planets generally, not one in particular, and the geneticists made the changes dominant, so that every parent would pass them on to every child."
The secret revealed, Honor comes from a long line of genetically-tweaked Harringtons. Specifically a generic heavy-grav world template (the Meyerdahl First Wave, Beta variant) with skeletal reinforcement, significantly increased muscle efficiency and tweaked respiration and circulation. Though not mentioned here, the Beta variant included attempts to increase intelligence, which has a spotty track record in the honorverse. First, because half the time they caused increased aggression too (notably, the Scrags) and second because (and I'm paraphrasing here) what we think of as intellect covers a vast variety of traits. Do you want more spatial awareness? Emotional intelligence? Math? Problem-solving?

The Meyerdahl 1B mod was less obvious or intrusive than most, but quietly successful in that those who have it frequently score in the 99th percentile on IQ tests.

Funny that she's never mentioned this before, but she's so casual with White Haven about it.

"And your diet?"

"I don't get more efficient muscles and a stronger heart for free, My Lord," Honor said wryly. "My metabolism runs about twenty percent faster—a little more than that actually, but not much—to fuel the differences. Which is why I can afford to eat like this," she finished, grinning as MacGuiness put a third plate of waffles in front of her.

"Actually," she added, cutting into the stack, "I tend to stuff myself at breakfast, then have a relatively light—well, light for me, anyway—lunch. The overnight 'down time' leaves me needing more reactor mass in the morning."
Two small downsides to the Meyerdahl line, the first is all that strength needs significantly more food, this will be important later. Actually, I've been looking and both Honor's considerable sweet tooth and that she never gains weight from it is already well-established. We just thought previously it was all her exercise and martial arts.

"You say more than half of Sphinx has the same modification?"

"That's only an estimate, and it's not one modification. The Harringtons are descended from the Meyerdahl First Wave, which was one of the first—in fact, I think it was the first—heavy-grav modification, and folks like us probably make up about twenty or twenty-five percent of the population. But there are several variations on the same theme, and worlds tend to attract colonists who can live there comfortably. When you add the free passages the government offered to recruit fresh colonists after the Plague of Twenty-Two AL, Sphinx wound up attracting an even bigger chunk of us than most, including a lot from the core worlds who wouldn't even have considered emigration otherwise. In many respects, the Meyerdahl genies are the most successful, in my modest opinion, though. Our musculature enhancement is certainly the most efficient, at any rate. But we do have one problem most of the others don't."

"Which is?"

"Most of us don't regenerate," she told him, touching the left side of her face. "Over eighty percent of us have a built-in genetic conflict with the regen therapies, and not even Beowulf has been able to figure out how to get around it yet. I'm pretty sure they will eventually, but for now—"
Meyerdahl genies are relatively common, particularly on Sphinx. The second downside is that most of the line can't use regen therapy. Also, we establish that a 25% increase in efficiency is the most anyone in the honorverse been able to improve on nature, at least in the category of superstrength.

She shrugged, mildly surprised at herself for offering the explanation in the first place, and even more for giving so many details. It wasn't something she thought much about herself, and some people still had funny reactions to the entire notion of "genies."
Odd little disconnect. Honor's pretty casual about it here, and apparently doesn't think about it much. Yet the Honorverse does practice chattel slavery with rights-less test-tube babies. Alright, slavery is officially banned but unofficially widely practiced. There's some lingering distrust and prejudice because Earth's Final War involved GEd super-soldiers (Scrags again) but, the ruling dynasty of Manticore are also genies, even though the precise details of their mods are secret, Honor is later told in confidence that they are "very similar" to the Meyedahl line.

In the long run, Honor expected Sullivan to be good for Grayson. He would accomplish whatever he did in ways which would never have occurred to Hanks, but his devotion to his God, his flock, his church, and his Protector—in that order—were beyond question.

Unfortunately, however, he was also rather more of a social conservative than Hanks had been. Or, rather, than Hanks had become following Grayson's alliance with Manticore. The new Reverend had been zealous in proclaiming the Church's continued backing for the Protector's reforms, and his attitude towards Steadholder Harrington could hardly have been more supportive, yet Honor knew the concept of a female steadholder didn't come naturally to him. In a very real sense, Sullivan was forcing himself to do what his intellect and his understanding of his faith required of him despite a lingering, deep-seated emotional distaste for the changes in his world—and his own world view—that required.
The new Reverend and spiritual leader of Grayson.

"we tend to try things out here, and what we're trying out this time is Grayson's first modern genetic clinic."

"Ah?" White Haven raised his eyebrows attentively, and Honor felt his fresh flicker of interest. Most of it was simply that—interest in the project she was describing—but there was more to it, as well. A dancing fire around the edges of his emotions. It was . . . admiration, she realized, and felt her cheeks heat. Darn it! Whatever White Haven—or Miranda, or Lord Prestwick, or even Benjamin Mayhew—might think, there was nothing extraordinary about her decision to bankroll the clinic. The entire initial endowment came to barely forty million, and Graysons suffered from an appalling number of genetic defects—many, if not most, of them correctable by modern medicine—after a millennium's exposure to their planet's heavy metal concentrations. It would have been criminal for her not to get someone from the Star Kingdom out here to do something about that, so where did White Haven get off admiring her for it? What gave him the right to sit there and—

-snip-

"Yes, My Lord," she heard herself say tranquilly. "The strides Grayson has made in industrial capacity and the ability to feed its people are remarkable, but I think, in the long run, that modern medicine is what's really going to have the greatest impact here. No doubt the fact that both of my own parents are physicians tends to prejudice my thinking in that regard—in fact, I've asked my mother to take a leave from her practice on Sphinx to set up our clinic here—but I don't really believe anyone who truly thinks things through could argue the point. After all, simply introducing prolong will bring about enormous changes, and when you add things like genetic repair and research, or—"
Honor pays out of pocket for a free Grayson genetics clinic, and convinces here mom to come and set it up. After several books of teasing, worlds will collide as Honor's incredibly sexually liberated mom is turned loose on Grayson society. Oh, I'm sure the clinic will make a huge difference too, Grayson still has an uncomfortably high infant mortality rate, curable genetic defects etc.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ahriman238 wrote:White Haven has come to Grayson to set up the new Eighth Fleet, a major offensive force that will be made up mostly of Grayson ships and personnel, with serious contributions from Manticore and Erewhon.
I get the impression that this changed after the RMN decided to make Eighth Fleet their major offensive striking arm for Buttercup, and more Manticoran ships were added, but yes.
Yeah, they are developed some beyond "planet of the goodfellas" but not that much. So far. Which is why I imagine all Erewhon officers speaking with Frank Sinatra's voice. Government officials naturally sound like Marlon Brando in the dentist's chair.
Yeah. Haven certainly COULD have refused that one offer... but it would have been most unwise to do so.
Honor's maternity leave for Nimitz's mate. Mostly though, I wanted to establish that it's been eight months since the last book and that Honor's spent the time working for the WDB refining the weapons and toys Wayfarer had. Making this 1911, eleven years since Honor first took command of Fearless, six years since the war started.
A bit odd that they'd send a senior officer portside in wartime for the sake of the treecat... but then again, Honor can work very profitably and usefully in her new position so it's not like she's being left on the shelf.
Bergen, I'd forgotten all about that guy. Some more stellar distances, Haven to the League Border, the nearest Erewhonese and Manticoran wormhole mouths. You can think of shutting the wormholes as the equivalent of cutting the transatlantic cable, but it doesn't seem to be quite enough edge for Manticore to overcome the average Sollies' kneejerk "Republics are good. Kingdoms are bad." reflex.
I'm more surprised Bergren isn't overcoming it; the temptation to defect would be almost irresistible.
The tech embargo and the League government. Well, it's more complicated than that. The League's foudners, for reasons unknown, were terrified of a "tyranny of the legislature" and so gave every member of the government the power to shut down anything. Of course, decisions still have to be made, so a dizzying number of beaurcracies and government agencies effectively rule, each with their own agenda. The League is quietly ruled by a commitee of five Permanent Senior Undersecretaries.
Weber did not play this up quite so strongly at the time.
Equally apparently, the leak in the embargo spurted both ways, for a source within the League Navy reported that the League's R&D types were now experimenting with their own version of the short-range FTL com system which was one of the RMN's most valuable tactical advantages. Their success was extremely limited to date, but they were headed in the right direction, and the progress they'd made, not to mention the basic concepts upon which their efforts appeared to be based, suggested that someone had been sharing data with them.
With the benefit of hindsight, I know it will take the League over a decade to get just to the point of morse-like pulses as in Honor of the Queen.
Hopefully that meant the RMN needed a decade or more to get to that point... [sighs] I suspect Weber just plain forgot about this.
Margin of Mantie missile seeker superiority a the start of the war. I suppose they measure that in hits out of birds fired? Anyways, with Sollie tech Manticore only has a 10% edge. They're still not taking hits on an equal basis, because Manticore is blazing new trails in ECM, but the margin of superiority is shrinking which is a problem because Haven is still vast.

Oh, and it took them six years, but Haven is using pods too now.
It probably helps that they almost have to have captured some actual RMN missile pods, if nothing else after the Battles of Nightingale and Minette among others. In those cases the People's Navy was left in possession of the star system and they would surely go looking for discarded RMN pods.

Also, the RMN is about to roll out its new hyper-dense fusion bottles, which allow it to make a huge qualitative leap in all its technologies. Come to think of it, even the huge escalation in FTL comm bandwidth seems to come after that point, and there may be a relationship.
"While I was with the Board, I saw some encouraging long-range reports on Ghost Rider," Honor went on after a moment. "The only hardware actually in the production pipeline are the new decoy missiles and the stealthed missile pods, and it'll be some time before any of the other goodies reach deployment status. I think Vice Admiral Adcock is right about how much the project will enhance our capabilities—eventually—but for now, the PN has definitely cut into our advantage."
...Wait holy cow ADCOCK IS STILL KICKING? O_o

What is he, a hundred and ten?
"I realize that your stint on the Board was brief, Milady, but just look at some of its proposals." He ticked the points off on the fingers of his raised hand. "First, it wants us to radically redesign our ships of the wall to produce a totally untested class. Next, it wants us to accelerate the construction of light attack craft, when we've demonstrated just about conclusively that even modern LACs are no match, ton-for-ton, for properly designed starships, even in a defensive role. Then it wants us to divert something like ten percent of our building capacity from superdreadnoughts and dreadnoughts—and this, mind you, at a time when the Peeps' building rates in those same classes are going up—to build these so-called 'LAC-carriers' in order to transport light attack craft across interstellar distances as offensive units, not defensive ones. Not content with that, it wants to strip the missile tubes out of our existing ships of the wall and replace them with launchers which will use up twelve percent more weapons volume and fire missiles whose size effectively reduces magazine capacity by eighteen percent?" He shook his head.

"No, Milady. This isn't just changing horses in midstream; this is jumping off your horse without making sure you have another one to land on, and you don't do that in the middle of a war. Not if you want to win that war. This sounds too much like a Sonja Hemphill wish list for me to endorse it."
White Haven is not well-pleased by the latest plans from the Weapons Development Board, after they finished digesting Honor's report and suggestions from her cruise. Alright, LAC carriers sound pretty silly if you haven't seen the latest LACs. Of course, this time Hamish barely skimmed the report before throwing it away in disgust at Hemphill's tinkering. The guy didn't even ask why the missile launchers and missiles needed to be so much bigger.

And now Honor takes him to task.
In White Haven's defense, most of the ideas he's had to shoot down coming from Hemphill were pretty bad- think "grav lance cruiser."

Plus, the idea of refitting ships to fire heavier missiles in mid-war really is a bad idea, and you will note that the RMN does not do that. Not only do they not refit many (if any) existing ships to fire MDMs out the tubes... they pretty much abandon broadside tubes for MDMs at all, at least for ships of the wall.
The concept that will ultimately be the Shrike-class LAC. It's built around a BC graser, so it closes wedge side towards the enemy, then swings in and delivers a BC graser and a handful of light missiles. A few dozen are a serious threat even to a waller.
Well... for a while. Ultimately the Havenites work out an effective counter-doctrine, and start deploying (largely defensive) LACs of their own. At which point the odds become fairly even and LACs cease to have any appreciable effect as antiship weapons.

They're sort of reinvented as auxiliary missile defense, and retain effect against lighter ships, but that's about it.
"Next, the new ships of the wall you object to are a logical extrapolation of the armament I had in Silesia. Where, I might remind you, Sir, my squadron, operating as single units outside any mutual support range, captured or destroyed an entire pirate squadron—plus a Peep light cruiser, two heavy cruisers, and a pair of battlecruisers—for the loss of a single armed merchant cruiser. Certainly building a superdreadnought around a hollow core would be a radical departure, and BuShips agrees that the new design will result in some reduction in structural strength. But it will also allow each SD to carry just over five hundred ten-missile pods and fire a salvo of six of them every twelve seconds. That's over five thousand missiles, at the rate of three hundred per minute, from a single ship which will sacrifice about thirty percent of its conventional armament to fit them in. I might also point out that the Ghost Rider remote platforms will make their pods even more useful, since it will allow the new design to deploy a complete, multilayered shell in a single salvo. Moreover, the new missile ships and the LAC-carriers between them will divert only twenty-five percent of the yard capacity currently devoted to conventional ships of the wall, assuming the recommended WDB ship mix is adopted.
Podnoughts! Also, 5,000 pods in the back of a podnought. :mrgreen:
Five hundred pods. Five thousand missiles.
Hamish (White Haven) realizes he's been hasty. I'm trying to imagine Hemphill pitching spinal mounts of wallers.
It'd give them massively bigger energy weapons and probably longer effective beam range- so in theory they could fire a devastating beam attack from a range at which enemy capital ships could not effectively reply.
Odd that she'd think about his wife, as we establish later that Manticore is totally fine with polygamy as long as it's between aware and consenting adults.
It's clearly not the norm, though, and certainly the other wife would be one of the "aware and consulting adults" involved. So her feelings in the matter (which might reasonably be assumed to be 'oh heck no') still count. A lot.
Grayson, one of only three planets in the known universe to play baseball, the only to keep the old Earth calendar, has also preserved waffles. Purely because they're traditional.
Also because waffles are awesome? Seriously, who wouldn't try to preserve them? I feel sorry for the rest of the universe.
Funny that she's never mentioned this before, but she's so casual with White Haven about it.
Well, she's never mentioned it on screen before- but who and when would she mention it to? About the only person I can think of who would be likely to learn it on screen is Paul Tankersley.
Two small downsides to the Meyerdahl line, the first is all that strength needs significantly more food, this will be important later. Actually, I've been looking and both Honor's considerable sweet tooth and that she never gains weight from it is already well-established. We just thought previously it was all her exercise and martial arts.
To be fair, a sedentary recipient of the Meyerdahl mods would probably burn a lot less calories anyway, and would probably not build as much of that demanding muscle mass.
Meyerdahl genies are relatively common, particularly on Sphinx. The second downside is that most of the line can't use regen therapy. Also, we establish that a 25% increase in efficiency is the most anyone in the honorverse been able to improve on nature, at least in the category of superstrength.
Well, so far as Honor knows. Someone like Thandi Palane may be in a category above Honor (or may just be closer to the maximum possible than Honor). And Lord only knows what the Mesans are up to these days...
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by StarSword »

Ahriman238 wrote:The tech embargo and the League government. Well, it's more complicated than that. The League's foudners, for reasons unknown, were terrified of a "tyranny of the legislature" and so gave every member of the government the power to shut down anything. Of course, decisions still have to be made, so a dizzying number of beaurcracies and government agencies effectively rule, each with their own agenda. The League is quietly ruled by a commitee of five Permanent Senior Undersecretaries.
So, basically the League central government works kinda like the United States under the Articles of Confederation, except even weaker?

How in the hell did it manage to establish itself in the first place? :wtf:
Simon_Jester wrote:
Hamish (White Haven) realizes he's been hasty. I'm trying to imagine Hemphill pitching spinal mounts of wallers.
It'd give them massively bigger energy weapons and probably longer effective beam range- so in theory they could fire a devastating beam attack from a range at which enemy capital ships could not effectively reply.
The obvious problems being that A) bow walls hadn't been invented yet so you're exposing yourself for a killshot, and B) it's probably still outranged by missiles, so you stay the hell away from it.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

Bergen, I'd forgotten all about that guy. Some more stellar distances, Haven to the League Border, the nearest Erewhonese and Manticoran wormhole mouths. You can think of shutting the wormholes as the equivalent of cutting the transatlantic cable, but it doesn't seem to be quite enough edge for Manticore to overcome the average Sollies' kneejerk "Republics are good. Kingdoms are bad." reflex.
I'm more surprised Bergren isn't overcoming it; the temptation to defect would be almost irresistible.
Bergen got most of his immediate family out, but he still has plenty of family back in Haven, even after the purges. It's also not impossible that he's ONIs source at the Haven embassy.

Weber did not play this up quite so strongly at the time.
Rightfully so. At the moment, the League is just a vast neutral party. Detailed information on precisely who wield political power isn't really needed or wanted at this time.

Hopefully that meant the RMN needed a decade or more to get to that point... [sighs] I suspect Weber just plain forgot about this.
If it helps, remember the FTL comm was only possible in the first place because of superconductors and miniaturized fusion plants and grav generators Hemphill had been tinkering with for LACs for a long time.

...Wait holy cow ADCOCK IS STILL KICKING? O_o

What is he, a hundred and ten?
A hundred and fourteen, with a sharp and functioning mind, without the benefit of prolong. These days he's a pure R&D man. Sadly, Admiral Adcock dies during the opening battles of Buttercup.

Well... for a while. Ultimately the Havenites work out an effective counter-doctrine, and start deploying (largely defensive) LACs of their own. At which point the odds become fairly even and LACs cease to have any appreciable effect as antiship weapons.

They're sort of reinvented as auxiliary missile defense, and retain effect against lighter ships, but that's about it.
For a while, albeit a glorious while. And then came the Sollies....

Five hundred pods. Five thousand missiles.
:banghead:

D'oh! Nuts. Mmm... doughnuts.

Well, so far as Honor knows. Someone like Thandi Palane may be in a category above Honor (or may just be closer to the maximum possible than Honor). And Lord only knows what the Mesans are up to these days...
Really, who knows? If they've gotten to the point of specifying anything I've not seen it. Of course, superstrength is a lot less impressive where both sides have guns.

So, basically the League central government works kinda like the United States under the Articles of Confederation, except even weaker?

How in the hell did it manage to establish itself in the first place? :wtf:
I'm not an expert in the League's history. It is known that the League was born after the Final War, when Earth was effectively bombed into the stone age and only survived because a number of the closest colony worlds banded together to provide humanitarian aid and mutual protection. By this time, some of these colonies had been established for almost a millennium and had no desire to cede sovereignty to any of the others, Earth, or a centralized government hence the deliberately weak and dysfunctional Constitution. As a further control, the individual planet and multi-system 'state' governments get the lion's share of tax revenue, the League government gets a tiny slice of that, plus duties on the space lanes.

At the present time, they can get away with it (well, mostly) because the League embraces a supermajority of humanity and commands an active wall of battle only slightly smaller than Manticore and Haven's pre-war lineup (after a generation of military expansion/frantic buildup) with over three times as many ships in mothballed reserves.

Stepping out of the story a minute, Weber has said he based the league on a combination of the failed Articles of Confederation US government and the League of Nations.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Nitpick, Ahriman:

The active strength of the Solarian League Navy is about two thousand of the wall (Manticore and Haven have a few hundred each); the reserve fleet is... I believe eight or nine thousand. I can't even begin to guess how big their light-ship fleet of battlecruisers, cruisers, and destroyers is, but my money is on "flipping huge." Easily several tens of thousands, because it's the SLN that has to patrol all of space except for the most desolate fringes and the relatively small volume covered by the Haven Sector (including Manticore).

Basically, if the SLN had decided to squash Manticore and/or Haven at any time prior to Operation Buttercup, they could have done so rather easily.
StarSword wrote:So, basically the League central government works kinda like the United States under the Articles of Confederation, except even weaker?

How in the hell did it manage to establish itself in the first place? :wtf:
It appears to have evolved consensually as the equivalent of the UN. At the time, the real unit of sovereignty was the planet or something smaller, and all these sovereign planets agreed to form a single allied government to smooth over trade and defense issues, prevent any really major wars, but preserve local autonomy and self-governance.
Simon_Jester wrote:The obvious problems being that A) bow walls hadn't been invented yet so you're exposing yourself for a killshot, and B) it's probably still outranged by missiles, so you stay the hell away from it.
Yes- it's the kind of thing you really don't do if you're thinking clearly.

I think Weber was actually lampooning one of the hairier suggestions cooked up by a fan. Someone who might think "energy combat is decisive, why not build ships with superduper energy weapons" without thinking through the consequences.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

I think a better allegory for the Solarian League would be the Polish commonwealth. Everyone gets a veto, and nothing gets done easily.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

That captures one specific aspect of the League, but not the rest.

Unlike the Polish Commonwealth, the League is "too big to fail" in that it is such a large and powerful alliance of wealthy planets. Its neighbors simply cannot threaten to invade it credibly until Buttercup, and even then it's a daunting prospect.

And unlike the Polish Commonwealth, the League actually does have a substantial government and bureaucracy, and even its tiny fraction of the overall League's power is enough to make it stronger than many non-League nations.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by eyl »

Ahriman238 wrote:Multi-drive missiles (MDMs) make missile ranges theoretically unlimited, and in practice still many time the other sides. Combine with the ability for a single podnought to launch a 300 or 600 bird salvo and... :twisted: Oh, and Mantie minaturaization is so good now, they can shoehorn three drives into a missile and increase it's size only about 20%.
It's likely that some of the components (the power source, for one) are shared between the drives, which would also make for a smaller size increase.
Odd that she'd think about his wife, as we establish later that Manticore is totally fine with polygamy as long as it's between aware and consenting adults.
As per Weber, while Manticore allows polygamy, the vows that Hamish and Emily took were specifically monogamous ones.
Odd little disconnect. Honor's pretty casual about it here, and apparently doesn't think about it much. Yet the Honorverse does practice chattel slavery with rights-less test-tube babies. Alright, slavery is officially banned but unofficially widely practiced. There's some lingering distrust and prejudice because Earth's Final War involved GEd super-soldiers (Scrags again) but, the ruling dynasty of Manticore are also genies, even though the precise details of their mods are secret, Honor is later told in confidence that they are "very similar" to the Meyedahl line.
The Scrags were apparently the least of it
Cauldron of Ghosts wrote:“Despite Victor’s well taken observation on the stupidity of calling any war the ‘final’ one, Old Earth’s version of it came entirely too close to being just that, at least where the Sol System was concerned,” he said much more somberly. “The Ukrainian Supremacists may have started it when they turned the super soldiers loose,” he glanced semi-apologetically at Yana, who snorted in amusement at his expression, “but they weren’t the only lunatics running asylums. And let’s be honest, the super soldiers weren’t really all that much more heavily genetically modified than Honor here is. Enhanced strength, better reflexes, they heal faster, and enhanced intelligence — although that one’s still a rather . . . nebulous concept — but that was small beer compared to the other crap that got turned loose. For example, there were the Asian Confederacy’s version of super soldiers. Now, those were scary. Implanted and natural weaponry, a metabolism that was so enhanced they ‘burned out’ in less than twenty years and their combat gear had to include intravenous concentrated nourishment just to keep them running that long, and enough other genetic tinkering to make them all sterile — thank God! In terms of effectiveness in sustained combat, the mods didn’t do a lot for them, given the sophistication of the weaponry available even to us poor old ‘pure strain’ models. Doesn’t really matter all that much how strong someone is or how good his reflexes are when he’s up against a main battle tank. But it turned them into god-awful special operations troops, and the ‘intelligence’ mods on them pushed them over the edge into the outright megalomania that proved Old Earth’s undoing. It was when they turned on the Confederacy’s political leadership in the Beijing Coup that the Final War really turned into the ultimate nightmare.”

“Why did they stage the coup?” Cachat asked. Benton-Ramirez y Chou arched an eyebrow at him, and the Havenite shrugged. “The Confederacy was winning against the Ukrainians, from what little I know about the history involved, but that all turned around shortly after the coup. So why did they do it? And why did it turn around?”

“They staged the coup because they were sterile,” Honor said before her uncle could reply. “They’d decided their obvious superiority to the pure strain humans who were giving them orders proved they should be in charge, and they’d decided they were clearly the next step in human evolution. But the Confederacy’s leadership controlled the cloning farms where they were created, and the Confederacy refused to allow them unlimited reproduction.” She shrugged. “So they staged their own revolt in order to take over the cloning facilities and produce more of their own kind.”

“And the reason the war in Europe started turning against them,” Benton-Ramirez y Chou said, nodding in agreement, “was because their mods had turned them into predators, not herd animals. Among other things, they were so full of contempt for their ‘obsolescent’ pure strain opponents that they tended to downplay the need to unite against their outside foes while they engaged in internal warfare with one another for control of the Confederacy.”

“And while all that was going on,” Catherine Montaigne put in sourly, “the idiots in Western Europe had pulled the stopper out of their own bottle of lunacy.” Montaigne had spent longer on Old Earth than anyone else gathered around the table. She’d spent quite a bit of that time learning about the womb in which Mesa and genetic slavery had been conceived, and her expression was bitter. “The Ukrainian Supremacists had taken all of them by surprise by the timing of their attack, but everyone on the planet — hell, everyone in the entire star system — had seen it coming for a long, long time. The Western Europeans weren’t interested in genetically modifying human beings. Instead, they decided to genetically modify diseases like anthrax, botulism, bubonic plague, meningitis, typhus, cholera, and something called Ebola.”

“I’ve never even heard of most of those,” Yana said plaintively.

“That’s because most of them have been effectively stamped out.” Montaigne’s expression was grim, “and thank God for it! In fact, most of them had been stamped out on Old Earth before the Final War, too. Until the idiots dusted them off and sent them off to war, at least.”

“How could they have expected that to work?” Elaine Mayhew demanded, eyes dark with the horror the mere thought of such a weapon evoked in someone who’d been raised in Grayson’s hermetically sealed environments.

“They thought they’d designed firewalls into their pet monstrosities.” Benton-Ramirez y Chou’s voice was even grimmer than Montaigne’s. “They’d integrated ‘kill switches’ and stockpiled disease-specific vaccines. But once they were out into a real-world environment, their firewalls evolved right out from under them a hell of a lot faster than they’d expected. Oh, initially, their weapons had almost exactly the desired effect when they deployed them. That lasted as long as three years, and the Confederacy’s super soldiers’ hyper-active metabolisms seem to have made them even more vulnerable than pure strain humans. But once the pathogens got loose in the civilian population of Asia, the law of unintended consequences came into play with a vengeance. By the time the same diseases started bleeding back across the frontier into Europe, they’d developed effective immunity to the vaccines which was supposed to protect Europeans against them.”

Catherine and Elaine looked at their husband, as if they hoped he’d tell them Benton-Ramirez y Chou was exaggerating, but Benjamin shook his head.

“There’s a reason they managed to kill off damned near the entire Old Earth branch of the human race,” he told his wives. “And don’t think it was all Europe and Asia, either. The western hemisphere made its own contribution to the holocaust.”

“True,” Honor agreed. “On the other hand, at least they weren’t crazy enough to turn genetically engineered diseases loose on their opposition.”

“Oh, no!” Benton-Ramirez y Chou showed his teeth in something which approximated a smile in much the same way a hexapuma’s bared teeth approximated a pleasant greeting. “They were lots smarter than that. They decided to deploy weaponized nanotech!”

“Sweet Tester,” Catherine Mayhew murmured.

“Rather than further disturb the digestion of Mac’s meal,” Honor said after a moment, “I propose we not go a lot deeper into the specifics of the Final War, Uncle Jacques. I don’t think we really need to in order to answer Cat’s original question about the . . . ill feeling between you noble Beowulfers and those despicable Mesans.”

“No. No, we don’t,” Benton-Ramirez y Chou agreed. “But that ‘ill feeling’ owes a lot to how Beowulf and the rest of the colony systems which responded to Old Earth’s attempted suicide viewed what had happened there.”
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

So weaponized nanotech was around 2000 years ago and nobody looks for it?
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Probably for the same reason nobody goes in for surprise kinetic bombardment strikes - anybody caught using a nanotech weapon would be immediately smashed flat by 2,000 Solarian superdreadnoughts.

That's assuming the technology is still practical, of course. It might just be that nobody uses them because regular Honorverse weaponry is more effective. This is a universe that uses thousands of high-yield nukes in a typical battle, that's got to be good for something.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by eyl »

Esquire wrote:Probably for the same reason nobody goes in for surprise kinetic bombardment strikes - anybody caught using a nanotech weapon would be immediately smashed flat by 2,000 Solarian superdreadnoughts.

That's assuming the technology is still practical, of course. It might just be that nobody uses them because regular Honorverse weaponry is more effective. This is a universe that uses thousands of high-yield nukes in a typical battle, that's got to be good for something.
The Mesan mind-control weapon is a form of nanotech - however, it's described as being especially stealthy. There have been other nanoweapons used as assassination tools in the series on occasion.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

eyl wrote:
Odd little disconnect. Honor's pretty casual about it here, and apparently doesn't think about it much. Yet the Honorverse does practice chattel slavery with rights-less test-tube babies. Alright, slavery is officially banned but unofficially widely practiced. There's some lingering distrust and prejudice because Earth's Final War involved GEd super-soldiers (Scrags again) but, the ruling dynasty of Manticore are also genies, even though the precise details of their mods are secret, Honor is later told in confidence that they are "very similar" to the Meyedahl line.
The Scrags were apparently the least of it
Cauldron of Ghosts wrote:[ka-snippet]
OK, that's interesting. Good to see that out, it clears a few things up.
CaptainChewbacca wrote:So weaponized nanotech was around 2000 years ago and nobody looks for it?
One thousand.

I suspect the weaponized nanites in question were more of the sort that kills you, not a form that hijacks your brain- an artificial flu virus or something. It probably didn't occur to anyone that mind control nanites would even be possible, and to be fair it's a much more serious challenge to accomplish that.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Ahriman238 »

I haven't read Cauldron of Ghosts, but that squares fairly well with what we've heard of the Final War.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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It wasn't as if he were the only system CO who needed more tonnage; it was just that his need was a bit more desperate than most . . . and that he knew his command area had already been written off by the planners back home.

Not that anyone would tell him that in so many words. That wasn't the way things were done these days. Instead, commanders were sent out on hopeless missions to hold the unholdable with the knowledge that when—not if—they failed to achieve victory, their families would suffer for that "failure." Theisman couldn't deny that such measures could strengthen a CO's willingness to fight, but in his opinion, the cost was far too high for the return even from a purely military viewpoint, far less a moral one. Officers who knew both that they couldn't win and that their families were hostage for how hard they tried to win were prone to desperation. Theisman had seen it again and again. All too often, an admiral stood and fought to the death for an objective rather than break off and retreat or even adopt a more flexible strategy of maneuver (which might, after all, be mistaken for a retreat by people's commissioners without the military experience to realize what was really happening), and in the process the toll in lost warships and trained personnel rose to even more disastrous levels. Not that anyone seemed able to convince the Office of State Security of that simple, painfully evident fact. Indeed, Theisman often suspected that his own lack of any immediate family was one reason the present command structure of the People's Navy regarded him with permanent low-grade suspicion. Since an officer with no family was less amenable to terrorization, it was inevitable that a regime which depended on terror to maintain its power would distrust him and watch perpetually for the first sign of "treason."
Tom Theisman and his opinion regarding "collective responsibility" and the general lack of trust for the military.

Thomas Theisman had been born fifteen days after his unmarried Dolist mother's sixteenth birthday, and he often wondered what she had been like. All he had of her was a single holocube of a skinny teenager in the cheap, typically flashy garb and overdone cosmetics Dolists favored even now. She'd been almost pretty, in a washed out, rather vapid-looking sort of way, he often thought, and there'd been at least a glimmer of intelligence and a trace of character in that otherwise amorphous face. With a few more years of maturity, a little genuine education, and a reason to at least try to improve her life, she might even have grown into someone he would have liked to know. But he'd never had the opportunity to find out if she had, for she'd handed him over to one of the state-run crèches before he was six months old. He'd never seen her again, and he had even her holocube only because the senior matron of his crèche had violated regulations to let him keep it.
Haven has state-run orphanages (creches) and Theisman was dropped off at one.

He'd known all along that he was headed somewhere like this, he supposed. It wasn't because he'd been loyal to the old regime, for the old regime had given him very little reason to feel any devotion to it. Nor was it because he was disloyal to the PRH, for whatever its faults might be, the People's Republic was his country, the star nation whose uniform he'd chosen to wear and which he'd sworn to defend.

No, the problem, as he was only too well aware, was that he couldn't stomach the stupidity and waste and gratuitous violence wreaked in the name of discipline by half-wits who lacked the intelligence to see where their version of "discipline" must ultimately lead. Like many other officers, he'd found in the Legislaturalist purges a chance for the flag rank he could never have attained under the old regime, but his attitudes, as his military skills, had been shaped by his one-time mentor Alfredo Yu. And like Yu, Thomas Theisman believed in finding ways to maximize the strength of the raw material assigned to him, whether in terms of equipment or personnel, which required that an officer lead, not simply goad from behind.

But the crude tactics embraced by the SS rejected that tradition. Indeed, StateSec didn't want leaders in the military, for anyone who could motivate his people to follow him and give of their very best for him in the furnace of battle could only be regarded as a potential threat to the new regime.
Why Theisman believes he's in hot water. It's true that the Committee feels no particular trust for him, but they still consider him one of a handful of officers they desperately need.

It hadn't mattered in the end, but his stand at Seabring had probably bought Trevor's Star another three or four months, possibly even more. It had also cost virtually his entire task force, for he'd been forced to engage dreadnoughts with battleships and battlecruisers. He knew he'd fought well, even brilliantly, but brilliance had been too little to overcome his units' individual inferiority. He'd had twice as many ships as his opponent but less than two-thirds the tonnage, and battleships and battlecruisers had no business fighting dreadnoughts even at two-to-one odds. Not even if they'd had technological parity. He'd managed to destroy only a single Manticoran dreadnought in return for the total destruction of seven battleships and eleven battlecruisers plus sufficient damage to send three more battleships—including PNS Conquèrant, his flagship—to the breakers, but he'd inflicted such a heavy pounding upon the enemy in reply that the opposing admiral had broken off to shepherd his cripples clear.

Eleven battlecruisers and ten obsolete, undersized, underarmed "capital ships" which had no business in the wall of battle anyway wasn't an exorbitant price for holding a star system . . . assuming that there'd been any point in holding it in the first place, and he tried to believe there had been. Oh, the First Battle of Seabring hadn't stopped the Manties cold, nor had it prevented Theisman's successor in command of the system from losing the Second Battle of Seabring or saved Trevor's Star in the long run. But it had at least slowed the enemy up, weakened him at least a little, cost him at least a few escorts and sent half a dozen dreadnoughts back to the yard for extensive repairs. And in a war in which the People's Navy could count its victories on the fingers of one man's hands, it had been a major boost to the Navy's morale . . . a point Theisman tried to remember when he reflected upon the nineteen thousand men and women who'd died winning it.
Since we last saw him, Theisman has gone on an Honor-style death ride to save the Seabring system, which fell shortly after, but he did manage to take out a waller and spend six more to the repair yard without a single proper waller of his own, so major kudos there.

Whatever its other faults (and God knew they were legion), the current leadership at the Admiralty had at least managed to convince StateSec that shooting officers for following orders would have a . . . negative impact on naval operations. It was bad enough to know you would be shot for failing to execute orders, however impossible the task to which they assigned you, without knowing that you'd also be shot if you did execute them and things turned out badly anyway. Besides, officers who figured they had nothing to lose whatever they did were far more likely to turn upon their political masters, and thank God someone had been able to make the SS see at least that much!
Theisman's thinking on Warner Caslet's situation, and that at least there's a policy in place for not shooting officers who follow the rules and fail through no fault of their own.

"For starters, they're sending us the Sixty-Second and Eighty-First Battle Squadrons," Caslet replied, and despite himself, Theisman's eyebrows did rise this time. "The Sixty-Second is twenty-five percent understrength, and the Eighty-First is short one ship, but that's still thirteen more of the wall, S— Citizen Admiral."

Theisman nodded. That was a much heavier reinforcement than he'd let himself anticipate. In fact, it would increase his wall of battle's strength by almost thirty percent, which might actually indicate that the Republic's rulers intended to make a serious fight for Barnett. They wouldn't be able to hold it even if they did, but if they gave him enough combat power he could at least make his defense buy the rest of the Navy a chunk of time big enough that it might actually mean something.

-snip-

"Yes, Citizen Admiral," Hathaway said. "That's the heavy metal, but it looks like we're getting another destroyer flotilla, the better part of the Hundred Twenty-First Light Cruiser Squadron, and another half-dozen heavy cruisers. We may even be getting another battlecruiser, assuming we get to hang onto her." Except to someone who knew her very, very well, Hathaway's tone as she delivered her last sentence would have sounded completely normal, but Theisman did know her.
Reinforcements to Barnett. Probably not terribly significant, as we'll be skipping over the battle for Barnett, except that enough light units convince Theisman to send out Lester Tourville to raid nearby systems, a more proactive form of defense.

Theisman hid a core-deep sense of disgust—and fear—as he considered the news. Like virtually all regular officers, even those who most ardently supported the new regime, he found the logic in diverting desperately needed warships from front-line task forces questionable, to say the least. But what he found frightening, and what he dared never voice aloud, was the other side of the logic. StateSec was amassing an entire fleet of warships which were either commanded by SS officers or even, as in Tepes' case, manned entirely by SS personnel.

-snip-

But what sent a chill down his spine—and explained LePic's absence—was that PNS Tepes had a very special reputation. Although her crew was drawn from the Office of State Security, she was permanently assigned to the Office of Public Information. She was, in fact, Committeewoman Cordelia Ransom's personal transport, and if the thought of diverting one of the Navy's most powerful battlecruisers to serve as a private yacht for the mistress of the Republic's propaganda machine and her personal crew of technicians seemed obscene, no one would ever dare say so. Just as no one would ever dare point out that Ransom's decision to visit the Barnett System could be far more dangerous to the officer charged with defending that system than any Manty task force.
Statesec is diverting construction to build their own fleet to police the regular fleet with. Years later, we find out just how powerful this shadow fleet is. For now, Cordelia Ransom is tripping around the galaxy in a customized Warlord-class BC, with room for far more marines (StateSec goons) and all her best recording equipment.

"All right. In that case, let's give Tourville CruRon Fifty and half a destroyer flotilla or so in return for the battlecruisers for Corrigan. That'll give him a nice little raiding force, with the speed to run away from anything it can't fight—unless, of course, it runs into a couple of divisions of Manty battlecruisers with their new compensators."

Theisman grimaced as he added the qualifier, and the more than half-defensive edge he couldn't quite keep out of his voice despite his best efforts irritated him immensely. At the same time, however, all four of the battlecruisers he intended to assign to the operation were Warlords, with the first fruits of the technology transfers from the Solarian League. The Manties' most recent Reliant-class still boasted a marginal advantage in weapons fit, and its electronic warfare capabilities offered it a substantial combat edge, but both those margins would be far smaller against a Warlord than anyone on the other side was likely to suspect. And, of course, if Tourville happened across something older than a Reliant, well . . .
Wising up to the compensators and talking up the new Warlords, inferior to the Manty counterpart in just a few areas; armament, barely. EW, considerably. Accel, definitely.

Five days after returning to Grayson, Honor left its surface once more. Her hasty scramble to cope with her responsibilities in such a short period had run her steading staff ragged, and she felt more than a little guilty about that. Especially since all of her Harringtons, from Howard Clinkscales down, had anticipated that she would be on-planet for at least four weeks. Even that would have been on the tight side for her to give proper personal attention to all the problems—and solutions—which had cropped up during her long absence, and she was unhappily certain that she'd left far too much undone.
Honor throws together her squadron and flees Harrington House rather than try and deal with her and Hamish's sudden mutual attraction.

She was scheduled to take command of the Eighteenth Cruiser Squadron, and five of its eight units had already arrived at Yeltsin's Star. Until CruRon 18 passed formally under the command of Eighth Fleet, it remained part of the Grayson Navy's Home Fleet, and if explaining her real reasons for asking High Admiral Matthews to expedite her assumption of her duties had been out of the question, he'd seemed to sense the urgency she couldn't voice. He hadn't argued, at any rate, and his staff had cut the orders recalling her to active duty even more quickly than she'd hoped, which was why she and Nimitz were now bound for GNS Jason Alvarez, her new flagship.
Honor will be commanding a heavy cruiser squadron in Eighth Fleet. Or at least that's the plan.

She also marked the beginning of a change in the way warships would be built, Honor reflected. Like RMN cruisers, Alvarez carried all her broadside weapons on a single deck, but she showed considerably fewer weapons hatches than her Manticoran contemporaries, and there was a reason for that.

Alvarez was the first Grayson-designed heavy cruiser, and while her electronic warfare suite and defensive systems were roughly equivalent to those of the RMN's Star Knight class—upon which her design was based—the Graysons had had their own ideas about her offensive systems. It had taken a large dose of . . . call it "self-confidence," Honor mused, for a navy with no history of deep-space warfare to depart from the combined conventional wisdom of the rest of the explored galaxy when writing the specifications for its first modern warship, but the GSN had done it. Alvarez carried less than half the energy weapons of a Star Knight, which substantially reduced the number of targets she could engage simultaneously. It also cost her a small but possibly significant percentage of her antimissile capability, since starships often used broadside energy batteries to back up their purpose-built point defense weapons during long-range missile duels. But by accepting that reduction in weapon numbers, the combined Grayson–Manticoran design team had been able to mount twenty percent more missile tubes and fit in graser projectors heavier than most battlecruisers mounted. Conventional wisdom held that an equal tonnage of heavy cruisers could not fight a battlecruiser and win . . . but Honor suspected conventional wisdom was wrong where the Alvarezes were concerned.
Jason Alvarez-class cruiser. Grayson-built and based on Star Knights like Fearless II. The choice to go with fewer, but way heavier energy weapons has been brought up before, but it makes a lot of sense if they cut down on energy mounts to make room for missile tubes and upscaled the energy weapons so they'd still be a threat at those ranges.

As far as I can tell, the first mention of using regular energy weapons for point defense.

Not that Honor intended to match any of her ships against Peep battlecruisers. She'd experienced more than her fair share of unequal fights against superior opponents, and she was more than willing to leave such affairs to others for a while.
*snicker*

Prince Adrian vanished beyond the corner of her view port as the pinnace cut its impeller wedge and went to reaction thrusters, and Honor reached up to tug her uniform beret out from under her left epaulet. She smoothed it out, and her smile faded as she twitched its soft fabric into the proper configuration, for it was black. For the first time in twenty-one T-years, she was about to assume a spacegoing command as an RMN officer without the white beret which designated a starship's commander. Indeed, she would never wear the white beret again, and the thought produced a fresh pang. Intellectually, she knew how lucky she'd been to command as many ships as she had, but she also knew she would always long for just one more . . . and that she would never receive it.
Confirmation of Honor's promotion to Commodore for her squadron command. Oh yeah, and McKeon's here, in the ship he got when the war started and has taken back since the whole Silesia Q-ship cruise. For that matter, Venizelos and Scotty are both on Honor's staff, and Fritz is the sawbones on her flagship. It's like a Fearless reunion.

Alvarez had just completed a scheduled major overhaul, and the yard had replaced her original electronic warfare section with all new hardware. The capabilities the new systems promised were exciting, but Greentree and his engineers were still working their way through the inevitable teething problems, and his tactical officers were just beginning the necessary simulator training.
At least four major EW upgrades since the war began, not even going into Ghost Rider.

Esther McQueen's carefully trained face hid the mild surprise she still felt as Rob Pierre and Oscar Saint-Just both came to their feet at her arrival. They'd each done the same thing on every other occasion upon which she'd met with either or both of them, and oddly enough, she was certain the courteous gesture was genuine, not something assumed for the purposes of manipulation. Not because she would ever make the mistake of forgetting that both these men were consummate manipulators, but because, in their personal relations, both of them routinely demonstrated an old-fashioned courtesy which was almost grotesque against the backdrop of the Republic's current agony.
Rob Pierre and Oscar Saint-Just may have killed more men then Stalin, but when a lady enters the room, they stand. And hold the door, pull out chairs etc.

The truth was, as she knew, that she was trapped in a no-win situation where the death toll was concerned . . . and not just with the public. She wasn't the one who'd popped off the pee-wee nukes the Levelers had smuggled into both of StateSec's major HQs here in the capital. Those bombs had done their job of taking out the only SS field forces which might have been deployed in sufficient strength to make a difference, and the Leveler leadership had obviously felt the slaughter of surrounding civilians was worth it. McQueen would have preferred to think she wasn't like that, but the same brutal self-honesty which made her such an effective field commander wouldn't let her.
The Leveler coup opened with nuking two StateSec headquarters, neutralizing that threat. McQueen admits to herself that she could probably also sacrifice the civilians in the blast radius.

"I'm glad to see you're moving better, Citizen Admiral," Pierre said, opening the conversation, and McQueen smiled at him. The broken—"smashed" was probably a better choice of words—ribs she'd suffered when her pinnace went down near the end of the fighting had done major internal damage. Surgical repairs and quick heal had put most of that to rights swiftly enough, but quick heal was less effective on bones. They persisted in knitting at the old-fashioned rate evolution had designed into them and she'd done an unusually thorough job of reducing most of her right rib cage to splinters. Her ribs had needed over two T-months to glue themselves back together, and an edge of stiffness persisted even now.
Quick heal is relatively ineffective at mending bones, so it still takes weeks for proper recovery. Not relevant to anything going on, but that does nix one explanation for Honor's duel in FiE.

But he wasn't about to leap to any conclusions. The contingency plans she'd somehow put together right under Citizen Commissioner Fontein's nose had played a major—possibly even a decisive—part in saving the Committee, but she shouldn't have been able to make them. Of course, her ability to inspire the sort of personal loyalty that carried men and women into battle with her was one of the things which made her so valuable as a military officer. But it was also the kind of ability which might convince subordinates to go along with making unauthorized plans—or, to use an uglier turn of phrase, conspiring with her to circumvent civilian authority—and that was specifically what Oscar Saint-Just had chosen Erasmus Fontein as her commissioner to prevent.
McQueen stopped the coup and saved the committee, good. In the process, she showed that she'd already come up with a detailed plan for storming the capital, under the nose of her ultracompetent (but playing the fool) watchdog. This... is less good, from the Committee's point of view.

"The Levelers' coup attempt has exposed one new problem and reemphasized several we already knew about," he said. "The new one is the fact that the Levelers managed to infiltrate the Committee itself. On the purely military side, they couldn't have gotten their bombs in place or sabotaged our command net without inside help, and from a political viewpoint, they had to have been counting on putting at least some members of the present Committee on HD to legitimize their coup after the fighting. I'm sure they could have counted on getting a few obedient talking heads by putting pulsers to our temples, but crazy as the Leveler rank and file were, LaBoeuf and his inner cadre were smart and dangerous. My belief—and Oscar shares it—is that they would never have moved without the assurance of long-term, willing support from at least a portion of the Committee. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to identify those supporters, which means that we have a serious internal security problem that we didn't know about before.

"Oscar's people—" Pierre nodded to Saint-Just "—are working on that. We don't have much to go on yet, but they'll keep digging until they find the moles. In the meantime, we're considering a drastic downsizing of the Committee. At the moment, we're looking at a reduction of perhaps fifty percent in its present membership. We can't make a move that drastic immediately, of course, and we can't be positive that all the unreliable elements would be pruned away in the purge even when we do. What we can plan for, though, is to retain the people we trust the most."
There's a traitor, perhaps several in the Committee, so it's time to prune down the numbers.

"That, as I say, will have to wait, at least for a while," Pierre resumed, "but we can begin dealing with the problems we already knew about now. Between us, the Manties, and the Legislaturalists, our military has been monumentally screwed over, Esther. The Manties, at least, ought to be trying to beat us, but we—and I include the Committee of Public Safety and State Security in 'we'—have managed to do a pretty good job of gelding the Navy for them. Well, it's time we stopped blaming the Navy for failing and admit that it's got problems we created. Problems we want you to fix."
Pierre can take responsibility for his own screw-ups. To a point.

"Our biggest single problem," she said precisely, "is the fact that our officers have about as much initiative as a three-day corpse. I realize the military must be answerable to civilian authority. That was an article of faith even under the Legislaturalists, and it's even more true now than it was then. But there's a distinct difference between obedience to orders and being too terrified to take any action without orders, and quite frankly, StateSec has gone too far." Her green eyes swiveled to meet Saint-Just's levelly, without flinching.

"The pressures being brought to bear on all our personnel, but especially our officers, are too great. You can drive men and women into submission, but what a navy requires is leadership and intelligent initiative, not blind obedience. I'm not speaking about disobeying directives from higher authority; I'm talking about senior officers exercising their own discretion when situations arise which their orders don't cover. The recent coup attempt offers the clearest possible proof of the weakness lack of initiative creates. Let me remind you that even when the Levelers started detonating nuclear devices in the heart of Nouveau Paris, not a single senior officer of the Capital Fleet moved to assist me. They were afraid to—afraid someone might think they were supporting the insurgents so that even if they survived the fighting, State Security would be waiting to shoot them when the smoke cleared."

-snip-

"Citizen Chairman, I could go on for hours about all the problems we have," she said frankly. "Most of them, however, can be fixed by officers who believe they'll be backed up by their superiors and that honest mistakes—not treason, but honest mistakes—won't get them shot or their families imprisoned. Lack of initiative is only one symptom of the true problem, Sir. Our officers are too busy looking over their shoulders to concentrate on the enemy. They're not only afraid to act on their own, they're afraid not to follow orders which they know are no longer relevant by the time they receive them. And quite aside from any other concern, shooting officers who've done their best and failed also means they never get a chance to learn from their mistakes. The successful conduct of a war requires a professional military with confidence in itself and its support structure. At the moment, we're still trying to rebuild to the level of professional skill we had before the coup, and we don't have confidence in ourselves, the quality of our weapons, or—I'm sorry, but I have to say it—the support of our civilian leadership."
McQueen, the woman who cluster-bombed the capitol, is serving as the voice of reason.


"I realize we can't change everything instantly," she said, "but neither can we afford to wait too long before we start making changes. The technology transfers we're getting from the Solarian League should help restore at least some confidence in our weapons, but technical superiority isn't the only reason the Manties are pushing us back. Their officers think for themselves. They adapt and modify their plans within the framework of the directives they've been given instead of following the letter of orders which may no longer make sense in the face of changing circumstances. And when one of their admirals gives an order, she gives it herself. She doesn't have to clear it with someone else, she knows it will be obeyed by the people she gives it to, and she knows that she won't be shot by her superiors just because she made a mistake."

She looked at the two men, wondering if she really wanted to finish her argument, and then gave a mental shrug. If candor was going to ruin everything, then it had already done so, in which case she might as well be hung for a sheep.

"That's what really gives the enemy their edge against us, gentlemen," she said flatly. "Manty officers face only one enemy."
McQueen admits that leadership is as much or a bigger problem for the Navy than Manticore's technical edge.

"The first thing I'd do would be to formally discontinue the policy of 'collective responsibility.' Shooting people for their mistakes is one thing; in my opinion, shooting people just because they're related to someone who screwed up not only strangles initiative but is actively counterproductive in terms of loyalty to the state.

"Second, I would take a very close look at every officer above the rank of commodore or brigadier. I would evaluate them on the basis of four qualities: competence, aggressiveness, loyalty to the Committee, and leadership ability. Precisely how those qualities should be balanced is one of the things I'd like to go into with that staff I mentioned earlier, and the interrelationships between them would mean the evaluations would have to be done on something of an individual basis, but it would give us a handle for eliminating dead wood. And there is dead wood out there, gentlemen. Strapped as we are for officers, operating shorthanded is better than handicapping ourselves with incompetents.

"Third, I would remove the people's commissioners from the chain of command." She saw Saint-Just stiffen but went on speaking before he could protest. "I'm not suggesting that we remove them from the ships—" after all, you did say we have to start slowly, didn't you, Citizen Chairman? "—nor am I suggesting that they should stop being the Committee's direct representatives. But however sound they may be ideologically, not all of them are competent to judge the military merits of battle plans and orders. And if we're going to be honest, some of them have personal axes to grind which have nothing to do with operational realities. All I'm suggesting is that they be restricted to passing on the Committee's directions and overseeing the general policy of the units to which they're attached without being required to sign off on actual ops plans and orders. If there's a difference of opinion between a commissioner and a flag officer, by all means let them report the matter to higher authority, but until a decision comes down from above, let the trained professional make the operational call. After all—" she smiled thinly "—if an admiral knows her commissioner is complaining to the Admiralty, State Security, and the Committee, she's going to think long and hard before she does anything too risky."
McQueen's three-step program to fix the most glaring problems in the Navy. The major argument is how to announce the end of collective responsibility without acknowledging it's existence and thus giving Manticore a big propaganda knife over their chests. Oh, and they're uncomfortable with delegating the Commisioners to punishing obvious signs of treason and reporting behavior, rather than being the ultimate authority. Unsurprisingly, no one has any objection to purging the incompetents from the ranks.

This, she realized suddenly, was probably the best squadron command she would ever have—unless, perhaps, she was ever fortunate enough to command her own battlecruiser squadron. Heavy cruisers were powerful units, too valuable to waste on secondary duties, yet small enough and numerous enough that they could be worked hard . . . or risked. There would always be something for squadrons like this to do, and those who commanded them would always enjoy a degree of freedom and independence from higher authority no ship of the wall would ever know. Capital ships must remain concentrated at crucial strategic points, but cruisers were not just the eyes and ears of the Fleet but its fingertips, as well. They were far more likely to be detached for independent operations, and she felt herself looking forward to forging her ships into the single, cohesive force she would wield as easily and naturally as she did the Harrington Sword.
Role of cruisers.

By rights, a physician with his experience and demonstrated skill should have been home in the Star Kingdom on the staff of one of the major base hospitals, or else assigned to one of the lavishly equipped hospital ships which accompanied the Fleet Train.
Existence of hospital ships.

They wouldn't be the only RMN officers working on that particular problem, and Honor knew some of the others were going to approach the concept with negative preconceptions. She understood that, but she rejected their reservations . . . and not simply because she'd become as much a Grayson as a Manticoran. To be sure, the notion of devoting a staff-level slot to an officer specifically responsible for coordinating an entire squadron's or task force's electronic warfare systems, however logical, had never occurred to the RMN, which had always seen that sort of duty as one of the ops officer's responsibilities.

That was where most other navies assigned the responsibility, as well, but the Graysons, continuing their iconoclastic ways, had chosen to split the function off. They'd created the new staff position less than a T-year before, which meant it was as new in practice to Honor as to any other RMN officer, but both the Office of Personnel and Commodore Reston's Doctrine and Training Command had put a lot of thought into it before they'd acted. She'd known they were considering it before she'd left Yeltsin to return to Manticoran service, which put her at least a little ahead of her RMN contemporaries, many of whom were still busy grumbling about newfangled notions thought up by inexperienced amateurs without the common sense to leave things alone if they weren't broken. In Honor's experience, that was usually the first response of people who clung to tradition simply because it was tradition. That would have been enough by itself to incline her to give the concept a fair try, and like quite a few of the GSN's other heretical ideas, the arrangement appeared to be working out well in practice—a conclusion Scotty seemed to be coming to share as he settled into his new responsibilities.
Grayson assigns a staff officer to cover electronics warfare for the entire squadron, and Manticore follows behind. Not without some grumbling from traditionalists.

It was obvious that he was also aware that the Manticoran members of her staff felt a bit uncomfortable where he was concerned. The RMN had no official chaplains, and it would have been surprising if there hadn't been a certain period of . . . adjustment. At the same time, the Grayson Navy had never been without its chaplains, and even the most skeptical of Manticorans had to admit that a mixed squadron required a clerical presence. Honor would really have preferred to call once more on the services of Abraham Jackson, who'd served as BatRon One's chaplain, but Jackson had been detached from active duty and assigned to Reverend Sullivan's personal staff, and although Vorland was a very different man, she sensed from him the same sort of open-minded, flexible strength she'd found in Jackson. At the moment, he was somewhere in Mackenzie Steading instead of aboard Alvarez, but Honor could hardly begrudge his absence. His only son was marrying his third wife today, and Vorland would be there to perform the wedding himself.
Being a mixed fleet, Eighth will have chaplains. Honor's is sitting this one out though.

She heard a sudden sound behind her—a soft, almost slithery noise, followed by the flat, slapping sound of something flexible hitting the deck—and turned her head just in time to see a husky young man grab frantically for the armload of hardcopy binders he'd just spilled.
Despite nearly a decade of close contact with and acculturation to Manticore, the GSN has yet to go paperless.

"According to my latest update from High Admiral Matthews staff," he tapped the binder in front of him, one of the ones Clinkscales had delivered to the flag bridge, "most of the convoy's cargo is actually intended for Treadway, the endpoint of the voyage. I don't have detailed specs on it, but reading between the lines suggests that it's probably more hardware—and possibly some more personnel—to help upgrade the yard facilities we captured from the Peeps. One part of the convoy manifest that I do have, though, is the portion for Adler. Apparently the Protector has agreed to provide Marines to garrison Samovar, the system's inhabited planet, until the Royal Army can take over. A large part of this convoy constitutes ammunition, ground equipment, and general support for those Marines, and there's also a fairly hefty load of humanitarian relief supplies. From the look of things, the system was in pretty poor shape before the Alliance threw the Peeps out, and the locals seem to prefer us to the old management."
At least some Haven planets regard the Manties as liberators.

"A fairly routine one, actually. We've got a major convoy—sixteen or seventeen freighters and transports—routed through Yeltsin to Clairmont-Mathias. They're scheduled to make deliveries to several systems, but these are all JNMTC ships, so transit times will be a lot shorter than you might think."

He paused until White Haven nodded understanding. The Joint Navy Military Transport Command was the brainchild of the RMN's Logistics Command and the GSN's Office of Supply. Logistics Command had pointed out that really big freighters and transports, while invaluable under many circumstances, weren't really ideal in terms of flexibility. Smaller ships in the four- to five-million-ton range couldn't carry as much cargo or as many personnel, but smaller size translated into a larger total number of hulls for the same cumulative tonnage, and that equated to more destinations which could be served simultaneously. In peacetime, operating costs would have doomed the proposal (after all, a four million-ton ship required the same crew and very nearly the same fuel and maintenance costs as an eight million-ton vessel), but faced with the war against the Peeps, military, rather than financial, efficiency had become the overriding priority.

The Joint Navy Military Transport Command, composed of midsized ships and normally assigned to the delivery of high-priority, time-critical cargoes (or delivery to potential combat hot spots), was the result. And as part of the same move to speed and streamline the transportation process, the ships designated for JNMTC use had been taken in hand by navy shipyards—Manticoran or Grayson, as available slips permitted—for overhaul. Time was too tight for their civilian grade inertial compensators and impellers to be altered, but they'd received light sidewalls and missile defense systems, upgraded sensors and rudimentary electronic warfare systems, and military hyper generators to permit them to reach as high as the eta bands. Since most merchantmen were designed to cruise no higher than the delta bands, their up-rated generators virtually doubled the sustained apparent velocity JNMTC ships could attain.
The JNMTC, Manticore has been building lots of smaller freighters for running supplies to the front-lines, because they rarely need all the stuff you can cram into an SD-sized freighter. Then for good measure they give them (or upgrade existing ones) with better FTL, sidewalls, point-defense and EW, making them far easier to move around safely and less time-consuming to escort.

Apparently you can double or halve the size of a freighter and make no material difference to it's crew requirements or operating expenses.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Ahriman238 wrote:Confirmation of Honor's promotion to Commodore for her squadron command. Oh yeah, and McKeon's here, in the ship he got when the war started and has taken back since the whole Silesia Q-ship cruise. For that matter, Venizelos and Scotty are both on Honor's staff, and Fritz is the sawbones on her flagship. It's like a Fearless reunion.
McKeon wasn't involved in the Silesian adventure; Dame Alice Truman, CO HMS Apollo on the Grayson mission, was in the mix as CO of Parnassus, but to my knowledge, McKeon got Prince Adrian just around the time of First Hancock, and has kept her ever since (6 years; not unreasonable, given that he was promoted to Captain JG, then SG during this book). Presumably, they'd move him up to a bigger billet after the build-up of the 8th Fleet, in time for Buttercup.
Ahriman238 wrote:The JNMTC, Manticore has been building lots of smaller freighters for running supplies to the front-lines, because they rarely need all the stuff you can cram into an SD-sized freighter. Then for good measure they give them (or upgrade existing ones) with better FTL, sidewalls, point-defense and EW, making them far easier to move around safely and less time-consuming to escort.

Apparently you can double or halve the size of a freighter and make no material difference to it's crew requirements or operating expenses.
Makes perfect sense to me. Once you've got your bridge crew, some officers to man engineering (fusion reactors and the impeller rooms), some general repair crew, and so on...what more do you need? The components of the drive and ship overall don't scale up that much for having twice as much empty space between them. One may be able to test this against real-world experience by comparing the crew size of supertankers to smaller cargo vessels; I suspect they'd be similar.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Ahriman238 wrote:Reinforcements to Barnett. Probably not terribly significant, as we'll be skipping over the battle for Barnett, except that enough light units convince Theisman to send out Lester Tourville to raid nearby systems, a more proactive form of defense.
I think we actually do see the Battle of Barnett... but said battle does not take place until the opening round of Buttercup.

In other words, Theisman and McQueen do a good enough job of stabilizing the front that Manticore scores no major new offensive victories in the next two to three years. :D
Statesec is diverting construction to build their own fleet to police the regular fleet with. Years later, we find out just how powerful this shadow fleet is. For now, Cordelia Ransom is tripping around the galaxy in a customized Warlord-class BC, with room for far more marines (StateSec goons) and all her best recording equipment.
Not actually that powerful- or at least, I don't think so. Do you have exact figures?
Jason Alvarez-class cruiser. Grayson-built and based on Star Knights like Fearless II. The choice to go with fewer, but way heavier energy weapons has been brought up before, but it makes a lot of sense if they cut down on energy mounts to make room for missile tubes and upscaled the energy weapons so they'd still be a threat at those ranges.

As far as I can tell, the first mention of using regular energy weapons for point defense.
Personally I think they should have done the opposite- used more numerous, but lighter and quicker-firing laser mounts that could act as auxiliary point defense, because ships are far more likely to be threatened by missiles than beams. Especially if they have an acceleration advantage.

The reason I say this is that a Star Knight's beam mounts seem to have been perfectly adequate to cripple if not obliterate a Sultan-class battlecruiser at Second Yeltsin. This suggests that there is no real need to go for even heavier beam weapons; the existing mounts are perfectly adequate on the rare occasions when they are needed.
McQueen, the woman who cluster-bombed the capitol, is serving as the voice of reason.
Given who she was trying to stop and what THEY would have done, cluster-bombing the capital arguably was an act of reason by comparison...
This, she realized suddenly, was probably the best squadron command she would ever have—unless, perhaps, she was ever fortunate enough to command her own battlecruiser squadron. Heavy cruisers were powerful units, too valuable to waste on secondary duties, yet small enough and numerous enough that they could be worked hard . . . or risked. There would always be something for squadrons like this to do, and those who commanded them would always enjoy a degree of freedom and independence from higher authority no ship of the wall would ever know. Capital ships must remain concentrated at crucial strategic points, but cruisers were not just the eyes and ears of the Fleet but its fingertips, as well. They were far more likely to be detached for independent operations, and she felt herself looking forward to forging her ships into the single, cohesive force she would wield as easily and naturally as she did the Harrington Sword.
Role of cruisers.
At least in the RMN. A different fleet might use them mainly for screening duties, say...
Grayson assigns a staff officer to cover electronics warfare for the entire squadron, and Manticore follows behind. Not without some grumbling from traditionalists.
Since literally the only major fleet battles in Grayson's history (Third and Fourth Yeltsin) were won by keeping the enemy ignorant of the Allied fleet's dispositions until they'd been well and truly suckered in... yeah. I can see why the Graysons think that the admiral should have a dedicated staff responsible specifically for ensuring that such deception plans succeed.
Apparently you can double or halve the size of a freighter and make no material difference to it's crew requirements or operating expenses.
Crew requirement is no surprise- remember that the extra four million tons of ship translates into bigger equipment, not more of it. If you're not going to bother keeping enough crew and machinery on board to actually repair anything, and the crew is limited to the minimum necessary to allow a "watch" to monitor systems at all times... yeah, it doesn't really make much difference how big the ship is.

This experience is duplicated in real life. Enormous superfreighters don't actually have huge crews compared to smaller freighters, because in neither case is the ship's crew actually doing anything that would require twice as many people to take care of twice as many tons of cargo.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Simon_Jester wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:Statesec is diverting construction to build their own fleet to police the regular fleet with. Years later, we find out just how powerful this shadow fleet is. For now, Cordelia Ransom is tripping around the galaxy in a customized Warlord-class BC, with room for far more marines (StateSec goons) and all her best recording equipment.
Not actually that powerful- or at least, I don't think so. Do you have exact figures?
In Ashes of Victory, after McQueen's coup, Saint-Just reinforces Lovat's defenses under Giscard and Tourville with two over-size (12 each) squadrons of StateSec-manned superdreadnoughts. No one in the regular navy up until that point even suspected SS had ships of the wall, let alone three full battle squadrons of them to deploy to a system that's going to get eaten alive next (they suspect). Surely there are more battle squadrons attached/supplanting to Home Fleet, given the events leading up to that.
Simon_Jester wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:Jason Alvarez-class cruiser. Grayson-built and based on Star Knights like Fearless II. The choice to go with fewer, but way heavier energy weapons has been brought up before, but it makes a lot of sense if they cut down on energy mounts to make room for missile tubes and upscaled the energy weapons so they'd still be a threat at those ranges.

As far as I can tell, the first mention of using regular energy weapons for point defense.
Personally I think they should have done the opposite- used more numerous, but lighter and quicker-firing laser mounts that could act as auxiliary point defense, because ships are far more likely to be threatened by missiles than beams. Especially if they have an acceleration advantage.

The reason I say this is that a Star Knight's beam mounts seem to have been perfectly adequate to cripple if not obliterate a Sultan-class battlecruiser at Second Yeltsin. This suggests that there is no real need to go for even heavier beam weapons; the existing mounts are perfectly adequate on the rare occasions when they are needed.
They're enough to cripple/obliterate a battlecruiser that has already taken 2 point-blank nukes, hours of battle damage, and a full salvo of laser heads from a division of BCs. That's perhaps not the best baseline for "adequate energy weapon performance."
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Terralthra wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:Statesec is diverting construction to build their own fleet to police the regular fleet with. Years later, we find out just how powerful this shadow fleet is. For now, Cordelia Ransom is tripping around the galaxy in a customized Warlord-class BC, with room for far more marines (StateSec goons) and all her best recording equipment.
Not actually that powerful- or at least, I don't think so. Do you have exact figures?
In Ashes of Victory, after McQueen's coup, Saint-Just reinforces Lovat's defenses under Giscard and Tourville with two over-size (12 each) squadrons of StateSec-manned superdreadnoughts. No one in the regular navy up until that point even suspected SS had ships of the wall, let alone three full battle squadrons of them to deploy to a system that's going to get eaten alive next (they suspect). Surely there are more battle squadrons attached/supplanting to Home Fleet, given the events leading up to that.
True. On the other hand I suspect that's about the entirety of the SS wall of battle, unless we have evidence of significantly more SS ships surviving the events of Ashes of Victory.
Personally I think they should have done the opposite- used more numerous, but lighter and quicker-firing laser mounts that could act as auxiliary point defense, because ships are far more likely to be threatened by missiles than beams. Especially if they have an acceleration advantage.
They're enough to cripple/obliterate a battlecruiser that has already taken 2 point-blank nukes, hours of battle damage, and a full salvo of laser heads from a division of BCs. That's perhaps not the best baseline for "adequate energy weapon performance."
I don't know- unless they hit directly over major previous battle damage, that doesn't actually decrease the amount of armor they have to penetrate.

Which is the real measure of beam weapon effectiveness- can this ship's beams penetrate the armor belt of the target to do significant damage to the core hull? If, say, a destroyer shoots its lasers at a superdreadnought, the answer is going to be "no." But unless I'm badly mistaken, it seems like modern CAs have powerful enough beams that when they shoot at a battlecruiser the answer is "yes," even before the massive upgunning with the Alvarez-class.

Granted they won't do as much damage as the battlecruiser's return fire would, but that was never in the cards; if you want to deal equal damage you send a platform of equal tonnage to deal it with.

Honestly, the whole debate is rather irrelevant since beam weapons have obviously been superseded as the decisive arm by 1905 PD, at least to us. I can understand why RMN and GSN planners didn't quite figure this out until 1912-13, but it's seriously cognitive dissonance to have Honor lecture White Haven about how godlike the new multi-drive missiles are going to be one day, and then have her thinking about how 'progressive' it is to have superheavy grasers on cruisers so they can blow away targets in energy range the next.

One of these concepts isn't going to fit well with the other.

Then again, this is exactly how people really do think as military change overtakes them- witness the WWII admirals in the Pacific who kept consistently overestimating the importance and potency of battleships even after Taranto, Pearl Harbor, and even Midway... Even the good carrier commanders could make such mistakes.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

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Simon_Jester wrote:True. On the other hand I suspect that's about the entirety of the SS wall of battle, unless we have evidence of significantly more SS ships surviving the events of Ashes of Victory.
Fair enough, but nearly 40 SDs is rather a lot for an internal security force. I remember now that there was a note that all SS battle squadrons are 12 strong, because that was the only way, given their lower effectiveness in combat, that they could guarantee victory over a PRN battle squadron.
Simon_Jester wrote:Which is the real measure of beam weapon effectiveness- can this ship's beams penetrate the armor belt of the target to do significant damage to the core hull? If, say, a destroyer shoots its lasers at a superdreadnought, the answer is going to be "no." But unless I'm badly mistaken, it seems like modern CAs have powerful enough beams that when they shoot at a battlecruiser the answer is "yes," even before the massive upgunning with the Alvarez-class.

Granted they won't do as much damage as the battlecruiser's return fire would, but that was never in the cards; if you want to deal equal damage you send a platform of equal tonnage to deal it with.

Honestly, the whole debate is rather irrelevant since beam weapons have obviously been superseded as the decisive arm by 1905 PD, at least to us. I can understand why RMN and GSN planners didn't quite figure this out until 1912-13, but it's seriously cognitive dissonance to have Honor lecture White Haven about how godlike the new multi-drive missiles are going to be one day, and then have her thinking about how 'progressive' it is to have superheavy grasers on cruisers so they can blow away targets in energy range the next.
As I think I pointed out earlier (may've been the other thread), until the Apollo system deploys, the MISSILE GOD combat proves eventually just as indecisive as missile combat was before the podnaught/MDM combination deploys. Against navies that don't have equivalent forces and a doctrine for massive missile swarm defense, sure, it's a complete winner. Against similarly-armed and prepared navies...not so much.

Witness both the Second Battle of Marsh and the Battle of Solon. In the first one, despite being mouse-trapped, outnumbered, and outflanked, Tourville gets half his wall out intact. In the second, at range, Giscard shoots an entire battle squadron of SD(P)s dry to get...a piece of one SD(P). Another salvo of 17,000 missiles from the in-system defense pod systems finishes off that one SD(P) and pots a couple BCs and other light ships. The equivalent of 2 full squadrons' missile load punches out one SD(P). That's like the definition of "indecisive". Despite all the missile swarms, the only way to punch out an enemy force is to pin them against something they must defend and bore in to bring them to grips in-close against good telemetry and, one assumes, energy weapons to finish them off (as we see in First Manticore). And that's with SD(P)s! Squadrons of them!

Given that the BC(P)s ended up being a developmental dead end, smaller ships don't have the same MISSILE GOD SWARM capability that squadrons of SD(P)s have. An indecisive engagement between lighter ships seems just as likely as the more predictable "one ship is wiped from existence in a short series of salvoes" we've seen between light ships so far (notably all RMN ships vs. Sollies). Having the ability to get in close and finish them off with energy weapons doesn't seem like something that will never be important, based on the evidence we have.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

My point is simply that the existing beam armament of Honorverse light starships seems to be adequate for "finishing off" anything they would ever normally be designed to finish off alone. Nobody's actually going to expect a destroyer or cruiser (or squadron of same) to "finish off" a superdreadnought, except under circumstances so freakish that it's kind of foolish to design your ship around them. Whereas "ship gets shot at by missiles" is a routine hazard that happens in basically every single combat, and is quite likely to kill your ship all by itself.

I mean, to take things to extremes- if you could double your ship's countermissile armament or mount beam weapons, which would be more likely to give the ship survivability in the Honorverse? Purely hypothetically...

Now sure, for versatility's sake your ships need to have beam armament still. But that beam armament should be optimized for the new threat environment- and there's nothing in the new threat environment that really requires battlecruisers to mount dreadnought-sized beam weapons or whatever. Battlecruisers don't SHOOT at dreadnoughts in energy range unless something has gone badly wrong, being as how they are much faster and more agile than dreadnoughts. And if something does go that wrong then nothing your design doctrine can do is likely to make much difference.
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[By the way, at First Manticore I think all the casualties, except the handful inflicted by LACs and light screening vessels, were caused by massive missile barrages. Salvo throw weights were up in the tens of thousands, which was enough to start overwhelming RMN defense; the problem of needing truly absurd volume of fire was mainly a Havenite problem during the second war, when their missiles' EW disadvantage became particularly sharp at long range when it was the missiles' own seeker heads against the Ghost Rider/Keyhole-capable Manticorans' ECM.]
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by StarSword »

Simon_Jester wrote:Now sure, for versatility's sake your ships need to have beam armament still. But that beam armament should be optimized for the new threat environment- and there's nothing in the new threat environment that really requires battlecruisers to mount dreadnought-sized beam weapons or whatever. Battlecruisers don't SHOOT at dreadnoughts in energy range unless something has gone badly wrong, being as how they are much faster and more agile than dreadnoughts. And if something does go that wrong then nothing your design doctrine can do is likely to make much difference.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Simon_Jester »

Yes; that's a good example. Arming the four battlecruisers with heavier beam weapons would probably not have helped much- the result is still going to be "battlecruisers cease to exist." They might have had at least a slight chance of actually destroying or crippling the dreadnought. But no one sane would design a battlecruiser specifically so that it can be traded away like that.

You can't build a fleet that consciously attritional, saying "fine, we will design this battlecruiser to go into beam range of a dreadnought, knowing that four of them will die, because NOW we think the battlecruiser actually has a modest chance of causing serious damage to the target if four of them all gang up to die at once."

Nor can you really do the same with heavy cruisers, although there at least a good-sized CA is within shouting distance of a battlecruiser's tonnage and MIGHT be able to accomplish more against the battlecruiser given heavier beams. But just to take an example, in Second Yeltsin Fearless would probably not have been well served to have a Jason Alvarez's main beam weapons. They would have contributed nothing to the missile engagement, and might have actually resulted in Fearless taking a few more missile hits.

And by the time it got down to a beam engagement... well, the Star Knight's existing main armament was quite capable of polishing the battlecruiser off, despite "polishing off a battlecruiser" not really being in the design specifications.
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Re: Bit of Analysis: Honor Harrington II

Post by Batman »

In an environment that was increasingly missile-heavy, they...built a missile-heavier ship, and upped the ship's energy firepower for the occasions where she has to go to beam range. Yes, main energy batteries may get used for PD in a pinch, but I don't think that's a good reason to keep more but weaker guns. Besides, both Fearless and Thunder of God weren't exactly in mint condition by the time that happened so I doubt this incident is all that useful as a baseline.
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