Missing Primarchs (40K)

[Eternal_Freedom]

That's basically the story I used for my bunch. They were sent away by the Emperor at the start of the Heresy to hide and build their strength "until the moment of greatest peril."

[Rogue 9]

I like the idea of a hidden chapter, or ones tasked with some secret duty that would necessitate their removal from general circulation.

The likes of Reasonable Marines/Knights Inductors have no place in 40k. Not because of any fault on their part, they're just so... logical and realistic.

The hidden chapter idea is basically the Grey Knights. Reasonable Marines are kind of silly for the setting, yes, but the Knights Inductor actually make a great deal of sense (which they should, considering they're an attempt to tone down the Reasonable Marines so they actually work and fit the setting). Really, I just like how the entire idea was handled (and especially the fact that Rachnus Rageous was a psychic blank is the reason the Angry Marines'/Desert Fangs' Librarians explode ).

[Zinegata]

I always liked Lastie's take on the Missing Primarchs.

[Junghalli]

It might be as simple as they refused to join a xenocidal dictatorship bent on galactic domination. Back then, perhaps traitors could be just disappeared... but centuries later Horus is just too high profile (to say nothing of the real imminent threat of him) to make go away with an information purge.

I always liked the idea that at least one of the missing Primarchs had a story like that. He or she either took one look at the kind of society the Emperor wanted to build and said "no way am I going to be a party to this", or joined up but became increasingly disillusioned with the enterprise of the Great Crusade over time and eventually rebelled. Naturally the whole thing was rather embarassing to the Emperor and his government, so he had it surpressed.

Another possibility for why something like this might be surpressed while knowledge of Horus isn't ... well, while Chaos gets talked up as some kind of seductive force of evil, people like the CSMs seem a pretty repulsive alternative to the Imperium - really, I always got the impression some of the best anti-Chaos propaganda the Imperium could have would be to simply tell people the truth about what things are like under a typical full-blown Chaos-worshipping regime. I mean, who takes a look at guys like the Death Guard or the Noise Marines and says "yeah, I totally want to live like that!"? A more benign alternative might be more dangerous to the Imperium state in a way...

[Kojiro]

I always liked the idea that at least one of the missing Primarchs had a story like that. He or she either took one look at the kind of society the Emperor wanted to build and said "no way am I going to be a party to this", or joined up but became increasingly disillusioned with the enterprise of the Great Crusade over time and eventually rebelled. Naturally the whole thing was rather embarassing to the Emperor and his government, so he had it surpressed.

The Emperor is a tyrant, through and through. Worlds that would be happy to be allies, trade partners and friends to the Imperium, if only left to their own devices, are crushed under foot and have a dictatorship installed. I'm surprised more of the primarchs (assuming this was the fate of at least one of the missing ones) didn't have an issue with this, particularly Guilliman. The same is equally true of alien species- why fight unless you have no alternative?

Another possibility for why something like this might be surpressed while knowledge of Horus isn't ... well, while Chaos gets talked up as some kind of seductive force of evil, people like the CSMs seem a pretty repulsive alternative to the Imperium - really, I always got the impression some of the best anti-Chaos propaganda the Imperium could have would be to simply tell people the truth about what things are like under a typical full-blown Chaos-worshipping regime. I mean, who takes a look at guys like the Death Guard or the Noise Marines and says "yeah, I totally want to live like that!"? A more benign alternative might be more dangerous to the Imperium state in a way...

Honestly the truth is just way too dangerous. Almost no one would want to live under Chaos rule, but someone would, or rather someone would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven. The Imperium is full of billions of people who would make that deal. In a universe where merely saying the name of a daemon or tracing it's sigil can unwittingly summon said monstrosity, the less people who know it's even possible the better. What doesn't make sense is why the Emperor, who must have more knowledge of the Warp and it's denizens than any other human, doesn't share this knowledge with the primarchs.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Somewhere in the dark future of mankind there is only a Utopia of Missing Primarchs and Ironmen telling the Necrons and Choas to go **** themselves, nah never going to happen....

what they built rapture instead?

[PainRack]

I don't know.My personal feeling was always Mutant/Alien lover instead.

A Primarch falling on a xenos world, say Eldar or something and becoming a part of the xenos.

[2000AD]

Can someone explain the Reasonagble Marines / Knight Inductor thing? Haven't heard of that before.

[Tandrax218]

Here read this

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Reasonable_Marines

note**
be carefoul not to lose some 2-4 hours on random things that popup on this site

one of my faworite was this....

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Heretical_Love#Thread_25

[Junghalli]

I don't know.My personal feeling was always Mutant/Alien lover instead.

A Primarch falling on a xenos world, say Eldar or something and becoming a part of the xenos.

Reminds me of what they did with Sanguinius in that Dornian Heresy fan AU (he was adopted by the mutants of Baal Secundus instead of the humans - this ended up about as well as it sounds like it would).

[Simon_Jester]

Another possibility for why something like this might be surpressed while knowledge of Horus isn't ... well, while Chaos gets talked up as some kind of seductive force of evil, people like the CSMs seem a pretty repulsive alternative to the Imperium - really, I always got the impression some of the best anti-Chaos propaganda the Imperium could have would be to simply tell people the truth about what things are like under a typical full-blown Chaos-worshipping regime. I mean, who takes a look at guys like the Death Guard or the Noise Marines and says "yeah, I totally want to live like that!"? A more benign alternative might be more dangerous to the Imperium state in a way...

Honestly the truth is just way too dangerous. Almost no one would want to live under Chaos rule, but someone would, or rather someone would rather rule in hell than serve in heaven. The Imperium is full of billions of people who would make that deal. In a universe where merely saying the name of a daemon or tracing it's sigil can unwittingly summon said monstrosity, the less people who know it's even possible the better. What doesn't make sense is why the Emperor, who must have more knowledge of the Warp and it's denizens than any other human, doesn't share this knowledge with the primarchs.

At the time, I think he might have underestimated the threat posed by Chaos- figuring that if he could somehow find a means of transportation other than the Warp, the problem would solve itself. Or at least be postponed until he could devote all his attention to that after conquering the galaxy.

Also, not having had control over the Primarchs' upbringing, he might (correctly) have deduced that some of them were damaged/flawed individuals, whose weaknesses would make them as vulnerable to Chaos as ordinary mortals. In which case giving them more information about Chaos might make them MORE likely to be corrupted, just as is the case with many ordinary people.

[Junghalli]

This is based on a very idiosyncratic reading of what the Emperor is* that I don't expect many people to agree with and explicitly contradicts the stated backstory I've heard, but one possibility I kind of like is he was actually completely sincere in The Last Church, and didn't react well to at some later point finding his worldview was wrong, going into "keep it under wraps and keep the old plan going because I've already invested massively in it and it's already got a ton of its own inertia now, until I think up something better" mode.

* Edit: specifically, thinking the person I saw in The Last Church felt very young - maybe not young by human standards, but certainly not somebody who had the kind of perspective that seeing tens of thousands of years of human history would bring.

[The Yosemite Bear]

I thought of one other possibility, that would explain them being erased from 40k history, and truely being evil. One of the missing Primarchs is Rasalon, hence the two hearts, when settling his legion on the planet Gallifrey, he manipulated a black hole, and removed himself from time, creating the first of the timelords. *This also goes along with GW's intellectual property tradition of ripping off British Writers like Moorecock, and Wilson, and Tolkien etc.

[Rogue 9]

Here read this

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Reasonable_Marines

note**
be carefoul not to lose some 2-4 hours on random things that popup on this site

one of my faworite was this....

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Heretical_Love#Thread_25

I was trying not to do that because some of /tg's linguistic idiosyncrasies don't fly around these parts.

[Tandrax218]

what do you mean by that ??

[Rogue 9]

what do you mean by that ??

I mean a certain derogatory term for homosexuals that is flung around with abandon there will get you instantly banned.

[Dominarch's Hope]

Thats not the worst bit. Which IS the worst bit.


As far as the lack of a live and let live alliance mentality, that just seems brutally suicidal in a universe with widespread and essentially out of control Orks.


Its not just the fighting ability, its the fighting and expansive will that needs to be maintained. Which basically means that modern, tolerant and accepting society is just a bad idea in a galaxy as brutal as the 40k verse. This isnt saying that modern western powers cant fight when they need to, its just that the tolerance and acceptance of other people as a major and enforced cultural tenant has never happened with nations who face legitimate threats of invasion most of the time. Part of the reason for immigration acceptance is that we dont feel threatened by it because quite frankly, we arent. If any nuclear power wanted to stop it, they could, and can thus feel relaxed about letting it happen.


But when letting the other in is still horrendously unsafe, you arent going to see "Nice Guy" Cultures of acceptance and tolerance from the social norm, making what we call social progress and generally not behaving like a dickhead.

[PainRack]

As far as the lack of a live and let live alliance mentality, that just seems brutally suicidal in a universe with widespread and essentially out of control Orks.


Its not just the fighting ability, its the fighting and expansive will that needs to be maintained. Which basically means that modern, tolerant and accepting society is just a bad idea in a galaxy as brutal as the 40k verse. This isnt saying that modern western powers cant fight when they need to, its just that the tolerance and acceptance of other people as a major and enforced cultural tenant has never happened with nations who face legitimate threats of invasion most of the time. Part of the reason for immigration acceptance is that we dont feel threatened by it because quite frankly, we arent. If any nuclear power wanted to stop it, they could, and can thus feel relaxed about letting it happen.


But when letting the other in is still horrendously unsafe, you arent going to see "Nice Guy" Cultures of acceptance and tolerance from the social norm, making what we call social progress and generally not behaving like a dickhead.

Actually, I don't really see that. The constant nature of the Imperium in dicking around everyone else has earned them enemies that wasn't... necessary. Lack of immigration and intergration? Not really a problem. But the constant conquest and extermination of other alien races? Fine and dandy when the Imperium is able to actually xenocide the species, but this is not always the case.


The Tau might not be actually friendly to the Imperium, but a less aggressive, xenocidal attitude from the Imperium might have allowed the Imperium to have a less hostile co-existence with them.

[Dominarch's Hope]

You forget, most of the Imperium's, and humanities, enemies arent the reasonable type.


Lets run down the list.

Dark Eldar-Not much of a threat strategically, but damned annoying. And the Imperium cant find them again so why bother?

Tau-In a thousand years, they will never be able to threaten the Imperium, in fact, its implied that they are one of a dozen of their size. They are also mostly isolated to a single region of the galaxy.

Eldar-Attacks arent that frequent, Ulthwe is even an ally IIRC. Strategically, they *do* present a massive threat, but only if they are suicidal. They mostly just fuck off in Deep Space or rescue Exodites when and if they need it.



Everybody else? The existence of the species is at stake and the enemy can perform out of the blue attacks.


Its the mindset that needs to be kept up, the Highly and Explicitly Bigotted Siege Mentality, for humanity to remain safeish. Now, what the Emperor was going for, was a 20th Century Dickheaded nationalism/imperialism. Fairly fucking evil, but without WMDs(in effect) and being faced with literal unlimited hordes of implacable enemies who can not be reasoned with, its the best social mentality to go with.

Now fast forward 10,000 years. And it isnt just Orks and Chaos that is implacable and impossible to fully exterminate instantly, there are now Tyranids and Necrons. And the threat of Chaos has been growing everywhere and the threat of the Orks has been growing exponentially


So now the Imperium is stuck in Fundamentalist Ultra-Fascist mode. And in todays world, thats horrendously evil and non defensible. But for the Imperium?


They ACTUALLY ARE surrounded on all sides and infiltrated inside by enemies who wish only their brutal demise. Its not mere propaganda, ITS ACTUALLY THE DAMNED TRUTH. There REALLY IS an afterlife, and its ALMOST NOTHING BUT HELL!.


That I beleive is the main Morality Tale of 40k. Being a horrendous, brutal fascist theocracy is only defensible if you literally are and have been under the threat of annhilation against enemies which could never have been reasoned with even if you tried.

Otherwise, you are a monster and need to die.

[Vaporous]

The Horus Heresy books give us examples of groups like the Interex who manage to survive and thrive without being horrible totalitarian shitholes. I'm not sure we can justify the Emperors "kill them all, and then don't worry about who sorts them out because there are no gods" philosophy knowing what we know about how things turn out.

[Dominarch's Hope]

The Horus Heresy books give us examples of groups like the Interex who manage to survive and thrive without being horrible totalitarian shitholes. I'm not sure we can justify the Emperors "kill them all, and then don't worry about who sorts them out because there are no gods" philosophy knowing what we know about how things turn out.

The Interex was a single world. Or maybe a handful of worlds.

Do you think they would have survived anything but the most meager Waaagh!?

The other issue is that in fact The Emperor wasnt a killem all type. Its just that if there was ever a question of Humanity vs Xeno, he favored Humanity everytime. Planet up for grabs? For humans. If it was a vague threat, yeah exterminate them, otherwise postpone their extermination, possibly indefinately. He knew that humanity needed to be united accross the galaxy in order to survive what was to come, he knew that the Orks hadnt been completely put down and that xenos threats were on the horizon.

Regardless, you missed the central point of that post. Such ruthless extremism is only morally defensible when you are in their situation or something close to it. Otherwise its just petty evil for shits and giggles.


And I think we need to keep in mind the Doctrinal Differences of the Astartes Legionnes vs Chapters.


The Legionnes were closer to the USMC of today while the Chapters are more akin to Special Forces/Airborne.


In fact, IIRC wasnt the Baneblade originally an Astartes Legion mainstay, right beside the Land Raider?

Makes me cringe. Think about it, even you manage to mobility kill or take out the Baneblade, there isnt any guarantee that you killed the crew. And the crew is composed of Adeptus Astartes. So you arent much safer are you? Back in the Legion days, anyways.


Although it does bring up why the Chaos Marines dont have Baneblades, even a few, available.

[Rogue 9]

Who said anything about tolerating Orks? As written, the Knights Inductor (as opposed to the Reasonable Marines, which are purely a joke) believe that they are the bulwark against the terror and so forth and that their job is the defense of the Imperium. They also believe the Mechanicum can suck it. They are also pragmatic about both of those things, and will therefore tolerate and ally with non-threatening xenos, work closely with Guard units, build plasma guns that don't blow up in their hands, etc. This appeals to me, and I believe that even with 40k's nigh-constant invasion threats and so forth that it's workable; the great tragedy of the Imperium is that it could do things differently and not only survive but thrive (imagine if the Mechanicum wasn't so hidebound, or even if it would disseminate STC patterns to other Forge Worlds so that whole swathes of technology weren't lost every time some Orks ran over one of them) but doesn't have the capacity to imagine any other way.

[Dominarch's Hope]

And now that technology is widespread...AMONGST CHAOS CULTIST!!! And you can lose it forever or lose it to the ArchEnemy. Whats your choice? That is exactly what would happen. And it wouldnt matter against Orks, they are simply too widespread and resourceful to eliminate.


And the Ork bit is due to him saying that a Non-Rarrgh awful polity could survive in that galaxy. For how long? Less than 10k years and it isnt comparable to the Imperium. And half the reason the Imperium has been able to survive is its ability to draw upon the entire galaxy for resources and by being that expansive is that much harder to take down. Double edged sword of course. But worth it.


The only things about the Reasonable Marines that is even remotely applicable is the use of camo. But that doesnt always help and against some foes, it wouldnt help at all. The only other thing I can think of is maybe widespread use of Iron Halos and other shield devices for both Astartes and Superheavy tanks.

But then Chaos could copy the first one...and making it more difficult to take down Chaos Space Marines with Lascannons and Plasma Guns is just mean.

[Rogue 9]

And now that technology is widespread...AMONGST CHAOS CULTIST!!! And you can lose it forever or lose it to the ArchEnemy. Whats your choice? That is exactly what would happen. And it wouldnt matter against Orks, they are simply too widespread and resourceful to eliminate.


And the Ork bit is due to him saying that a Non-Rarrgh awful polity could survive in that galaxy. For how long? Less than 10k years and it isnt comparable to the Imperium. And half the reason the Imperium has been able to survive is its ability to draw upon the entire galaxy for resources and by being that expansive is that much harder to take down. Double edged sword of course. But worth it.


The only things about the Reasonable Marines that is even remotely applicable is the use of camo. But that doesnt always help and against some foes, it wouldnt help at all. The only other thing I can think of is maybe widespread use of Iron Halos and other shield devices for both Astartes and Superheavy tanks.

But then Chaos could copy the first one...and making it more difficult to take down Chaos Space Marines with Lascannons and Plasma Guns is just mean.

Chaos has the Dark Mechanicum and has killed plenty of Astartes officers, even when outright ignoring the fact that they got nine whole legions of Astartes to begin with and renegade companies and occasionally whole chapters every so often in the ten thousand years since. If they want the technology of the Iron Halo, they already have it.

As bad as the Imperium's situation is, there are far, far more Guardsmen than Chaos cultists, and the balance of power will be with the Imperium if they were to arm themselves better. When Tigrus was overrun by Orks, the STC for the Leman Russ Vanquisher was lost, and it was completely needless; if the STC were archived on other Forge Worlds or even just on Mars the Imperium wouldn't have suffered nearly so bad a blow. Reconstruction of the STC was done at Gryphonne IV - which was eaten by Tyranids, same story. Now the only remaining Forge World to successfully reproduce the Vanquisher cannon is Stygies VIII, which sits at the edge of the goddamned Eye of Terror. You cannot tell me this situation helps the Imperium in any way, shape, or form.

[Dominarch's Hope]

Its like you dont get 40k at all. Sure, making better use of this or that is a great idea, like recopying Dreadnaught schematics from the Machines themselves and mass-manufacutring them.

And the Plasma Gun thing isnt quite so bad.


As for the rest...apparently the Imperial Guard is entirely loyal etcetcetc.