Battlestar Galactica: Blood & Chrome

[Galvatron]

So the Mark II was old even by the end of the Cylon War, it seems. I wonder why Chief Tyrol painted one up with Adama's name and callsign if they were before even his time.

I take it the oBSG Viper is supposed to be the Mark I?

[Batman]

Um-other than spouting RCS thrusters the Blood and Chrome Vipers are the oBSG ones, as were the Mk IIIs Galactica carried at the beginning of the mini.

[Galvatron]

Wait...what? AFAIK, the only appearance the oBSG Vipers made in the entire nBSG series was in the museum. Are you saying the Mark III in B&C is closer to the oBSG model?

[Darth Nostril]

Uh they dragged all the old Vipers out of the museum and flew them in combat because that's all they had at the time to fight the Cylons with.

[Themightytom]

And apparently the Osiris was carrying heretofore unseen Mark III Vipers. The evolutionary design of the basestar at Djerba was interesting too.

Pretty sure those were Mark III Vipers on the Galactica.

Anyway - I noticed that the 'ghost fleet' has several Valkyrie-type Battlestars (introduced in "Hero" back in Season 3 by flashback, and seen in greater detail in "The Plan" movie). That annoys me - I know they're there just to make up numbers and are sufficiently far away / indistinct so its not confirmed that's what they are, but I don't like that sort of lazyness, ever. The Valkyrie-type was clearly an advanced / "modern" Battlestar design.

You know I thought about that, Valkyrie doesn't need to be modern, or advanced just cheap, Say the colonies began building the first twelve battlestars, but due to their size and complexity and retarded durability, they decide to go with a smaller easier frame. They really don't need all the features the Galactica seems to have, such as the ability to provide water for a fleet, storage and munitions that can supply operations for YEARS, large enough hanger space to dock a heavy cruiser internally? If you were going conservative, you really only something big enough to haul vipers around and carry enough fuel and ammunition to supply fighter wings.

In the original bsg the battlestars were pretty redundant within the colonial system considering the range and speed of the Vipers, they were doing a survey in one episode where Blue squadron enters a system, and splits up to scan different planets across the system, and the scene was like ten minutes long. Every time Starbuck gets shot he's just like "Oh, I'll pop over to a nearby planet" instead of "I am lost...in the deep darkness of space...I hope someone finds me..."

So the Vipers are not jump capable, but raptors and intermediate sized ships are. The colonies aren't THAT vast, a battle star could head out for a sortie, and then return to base, assuming they HAVE bases.

So say the Cylons rebelled. They commandeer the base stars, the Colonial fleet retains control of heavy cruisers or vipers or whatever, and manage to repel the Cylons from near orbit. They build battle stars like crazy, one for each colony to act as a platform, but with jump drive find that they don't necessarily need as many to cover their home territory. They probably lost a lot of territory to the Cylons early, such as the... Ice Planet... we see in B&C 3 and 4, and after five or six years basically say "Fuck it, let's circle the wagons" and build space stations and anchorages instead of Battlestars. Closer to home easier to replenish.

They still finish the original models that were in progress, such as the Galactica, but flesh out the fleet with the Valkyrie class. Cheaper and easier to maintain and upgrade, they stay in general use, maybe with a newer edition or two, while the original battlestars are retired and the Mercury class are developed and put into service. Generation two, or an upgraded Valkyrie could be put into development, but honestly, if they regress technologically after the war to avoid the Cylons hacking their systems, they don't need to change that much with the Valkyries. Adama seemed confident, boast or no, that the Galactica could hold it's own in a fight with the Pegasus, the Galactica has engaged multiple Base stars as well, the Valkyries don't need to be the latest greatest in order to do their job.

I mean honestly it kind of would make sense for the battlestars to be on the drawing board before the Cylon uprising, maybe in an explorer, or long range force projection role. It seems like the Colonies had worlds some distance from the colonies before the war and were expanding, until the Cylons scared them back into their own space. maybe the Cylons were going to be the home guard, and the first generation of battlestars was just overkill for so close to home.

That also makes Adama's career make a little more sense. He's a pilot, he's a hot shot. he's got natural talent, he's a good soldier, but he's awwwful at politics, at obeying orders, and though successful in war time, just doesn't show potential for promotion. When the fleet musters out after the war, he manages to trade his war time success and recognition to advance, ultimately to a battlestar that is small, but nothing special. Maybe the older battlestars are being taken out of service, the Mercury class is coming into production, the Valkyries aren't that special and are up for grabs because older officers are just burned out. Adama is given the black op because he's a good soldier, but expendable. He doesn't technically do anything the brass can go after him for so he's "promoted" to the larger ship that is being put into a secondary role, becomes a training ship and ultimately will become a museum.

Having Adama command a state of the art Valkyrie and then get busted to a rustbucket seems not plausible enough for the political purposes transferring his command was supposed to serve.

[Galvatron]

Let's not forget that Adama's military career lapsed for an unspecified amount of time, during which he met Saul Tigh.

[Vympel]

Um-other than spouting RCS thrusters the Blood and Chrome Vipers are the oBSG ones, as were the Mk IIIs Galactica carried at the beginning of the mini.

No, the Blood and Chrome Vipers are Mk 3s. The Vipers on Galactica in the miniseries (i.e. the relics) are Mk 2s.

http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Viper_Mark_III

See?

(the Mk IIIs are referred to by name in Blood and Chrome, on the Osiris)

[CaptJodan]

The presence of the Mark IIIs really fucks with cannon, unless it becomes a case of "Hey rook, you get this piece of shit Mk II to fly cause you're new", then the Cylons hit the fleet with a virus and everyone starts flying Mk IIs and Galactica gets a refit.

Problem is, we still haven't seen the presence of a single Mk II. That makes it exceedingly hard to justify Adama ever flying them, or for them to even be in the museum (especially without Mk IIIs along side).

I saw that wiki article yesterday as a matter of fact and dismissed it because I suspected that the creators didn't intend for this to be a new Mark, just that they screwed up the CGI and thus some of the details were wrong. But if you say they referred to the Mk III by name on the Osiris, then....fuck.

The Valkyrie bothers me like it does Vympel because it just seems lazy. The series so far has not spared expense to give us looks for different support ships, heavy cruisers, and even a new model of a Raptor. There's no reason why they couldn't have come up with a new (older looking) design of battlestar for the war that was smaller like the Valkyrie. In nBSG's flashback, it did feel as if the Valkyrie was a newer design.

[ray245]

We know that the Cylon war was ten years in by the time Adama became a pilot. So it's quite possible that both Mark II and Mark III were in use by the Colonial Fleet.

[CaptJodan]

We know that the Cylon war was ten years in by the time Adama became a pilot. So it's quite possible that both Mark II and Mark III were in use by the Colonial Fleet.

And? So far, Adama hasn't sat his ass in a Viper. We haven't even seen a Mk II on screen yet. (We also haven't seen the quintessential Centurion)

I don't have a problem with Mk IIs and IIIs serving in the fleet together, but we haven't seen the Mk II on screen yet. Adama's fighter during the war was the Mk II. The Mk III seems to be the mainstay fighter of this era, yet was not a part of the museum. The only reason I can think of that this is the case is that the Cylons didn't start hacking systems till the last 2 years, forcing the colonials to rely on the Mk II. This would leave the Mk III as little more than a footnote in the war, and thus no one would bother to include it in the museum.

If the Mk III lasted till the end of the war, I'd have questions as to why it wasn't put in the museum. Galactica had 20+ Mk IIs for a museum, but couldn't scrounge up a single Mk III? It seems like creating an entire museum without the war winners present. It's like having a museum filled with F4F Wildcats but not a single F6F Hellcat or F4U Corsair. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

Ultimately, out of universe, we know why the Mk III wasn't there. But what makes it so vexing was that there was no reason to include a more advanced mark for this series. Having the Mk II serving next to, for example, older Mk Is or something, would have made far more sense. I don't see why within the context of the story it was necessary to bring in a new mark, especially when it fucks with continuity unnecessarily.

Edited to reduce repetitiveness.

[JLTucker]

Wow. Just wow. You nerds are talking about ships instead of the content of the web series. How does it compare to BSG with its themes and social commentary? I haven't had time to watch past the first episode, so I would love to hear about something other than goddamn ships.

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

Wow. Just wow. You nerds are talking about ships instead of the content of the web series. How does it compare to BSG with its themes and social commentary? I haven't had time to watch past the first episode, so I would love to hear about something other than goddamn ships.

It's . . . by-the-numbers formulaic "action" sci-fi. The characters and plotlines, so far, are all out of the Standard Encyclopedia of Action Cliches, Volume IV: Fighters In SPAAAACE. Literally, there's nothing to talk about right now but the ships.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well there might be some themes you coudl discuss if you look, but this looks to be brewing to be your typical 'THEMATIC VS TECHNICAL' deathmatch that seems to crop up on SDN nowadays. There has to be FIGHTING about something, I guess...

[CaptJodan]

Wow. Just wow. You nerds are talking about ships instead of the content of the web series. How does it compare to BSG with its themes and social commentary? I haven't had time to watch past the first episode, so I would love to hear about something other than goddamn ships.

It's . . . by-the-numbers formulaic "action" sci-fi. The characters and plotlines, so far, are all out of the Standard Encyclopedia of Action Cliches, Volume IV: Fighters In SPAAAACE. Literally, there's nothing to talk about right now but the ships.

This. Also, I'm waiting till the movie (or whatever you want to call it) ends before making my final judgements on how the general theme of the show goes, in case it surprises me at the end. So far, though, it's mostly typical shallow exchanges by military officers punctuated by things blowing up. The characters have hardly had time to settle in to really deliver any major social commentary performances.

Plus I come to SDN for technology analysis. I make no apologies.

I will say the strongest and most interesting interpersonal moment so far was the "you have a son" issue. I wouldn't be surprised if that pilot dies in the upcoming battle, though.

[JLTucker]

This. Also, I'm waiting till the movie (or whatever you want to call it) ends before making my final judgements on how the general theme of the show goes, in case it surprises me at the end. So far, though, it's mostly typical shallow exchanges by military officers punctuated by things blowing up. The characters have hardly had time to settle in to really deliver any major social commentary performances.

Heh. Some members on this forum lamented the lack of explosions in nBSG.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, if you feel there's a lack of 'THEMATIC' in the discussion, why don't you actually inject some? I mean complaining about the lack of it comes across as you either wanting to mock other people for not being as 'Nerd Chic' as you are and discussing what you think is really important, or baiting people to start up an argument (as if SDN needs more argument.)

This isn't an attack, I'm genuinely curious why you actually posted what you did.

[JLTucker]

I just found it odd that for 1.5 pages people are talking about ships instead of the story. But like I said, I haven't had time to catch up no the webisodes. That's why I wanted to know if it is at all comparable to nBSG. I'll watch the episodes soon.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm a bit puzzled why you would think SDN, a forum with a history of obsessing over the TECHNICAL side of things, would spend 1.5 pages discussing technical things.

again I'm not saying there isn't room to discuss the plot and story of things, and I don't know why (and won't speculate why) nothing about the story has cropped up yet, but I don't find it all surprising this happened, either. I do that shit with the 40K shit I keep clogging OSF with too, after all.

[Batman]

Well if I'd have to venture a guess I'd say part of that is the fact that so far there isn't much plot and story to discuss. At this point there's about 45 minutes worth of Blood and Chrome and a lot of that was space explodey action. So far there hasn't been much room for character interaction or social commentary.

[Galvatron]

And? So far, Adama hasn't sat his ass in a Viper.

He flew a Mark III in the first episode. Granted, it wasn't one of Galactica's.

Maybe the Mark II is the iconic model that everyone associates with the Cylon War, hence its placement in the museum. The F-14 of its time.

Also, it's quite possible that there WAS a Mark III somewhere in the museum, but just a showpiece like the oBSG model presumably was.

[Themightytom]

Wow. Just wow. You nerds are talking about ships instead of the content of the web series. How does it compare to BSG with its themes and social commentary? I haven't had time to watch past the first episode, so I would love to hear about something other than goddamn ships.

I wrote like a page on Adama's career as related to Colonial history you jerk

The Mark III's could always prove to be an enormous fail, as has been observed earlier, there is a lot of computerization present in B%C galactica which is very obviously absent from the one in the series. Something is most likely going to cause more of a technological regression. They were all using Graystone bands for the briefing for example, and Adama has a personal model with which he plays space sims. That doesn't fit with what we saw in the series, so something is likely about to go down where it becomes very obvious that technology is an achilles heel. I am not excited about it, because it will demonstrate some serious stupidity on the Colonial's fault letting it happen twice... but it will also strengthen the "All this happened before, all this will happen again" meme.

[Vympel]

The show will be finished in a few weeks anyway, so we'll never know ...

[Skylon]

The Mark III's could always prove to be an enormous fail, as has been observed earlier, there is a lot of computerization present in B%C galactica which is very obviously absent from the one in the series. Something is most likely going to cause more of a technological regression. They were all using Graystone bands for the briefing for example, and Adama has a personal model with which he plays space sims. That doesn't fit with what we saw in the series, so something is likely about to go down where it becomes very obvious that technology is an achilles heel. I am not excited about it, because it will demonstrate some serious stupidity on the Colonial's fault letting it happen twice... but it will also strengthen the "All this happened before, all this will happen again" meme.

Nor does it jive with what the series indicated - that Galactica and the first Battlestars were built and designed around the idea of being able to avoid any computer infiltration, down to having doors that can only be shut manually - not that "we built these with state of the art technology then realized, oh shit! Cylons know how to hack!"

[CaptJodan]

He flew a Mark III in the first episode. Granted, it wasn't one of Galactica's.

In...what? Are you talking about the first few minutes of the first part of B&C? Cause that was a simulation. His ass definitely wasn't in a Viper. I can't think of what else you might be referring to.

That doesn't fit with what we saw in the series, so something is likely about to go down where it becomes very obvious that technology is an achilles heel. I am not excited about it, because it will demonstrate some serious stupidity on the Colonial's fault letting it happen twice... but it will also strengthen the "All this happened before, all this will happen again" meme.

I can sort of give that a pass. Presumably, this would be the first time the Colonials would come across the Cylon hack (IF it happened here). The second time, they were confident that their defense mainframe was secure, and you can't really blame them for that, because once they purged Baltar's program, all the higher tech stuff was secure (Viper VIIs and Pegasus, for the most obvious examples). But you're right, it also flows well with the common theme.

Nor does it jive with what the series indicated - that Galactica and the first Battlestars were built and designed around the idea of being able to avoid any computer infiltration, down to having doors that can only be shut manually - not that "we built these with state of the art technology then realized, oh shit! Cylons know how to hack!"

Exactly. With regard to Galactica, the only reason I can think that they made all these changes was because the sets were gone and they didn't feel they could recreate them adequately, so they went in a completely different direction. But they could have gone in a different direction and still made it relatively primitive, so that doesn't really hold up either. And we may never know.

[Galvatron]

Yeah, I guess I confused the simulator with the real thing. My bad.

The war lasted for ten years, didn't it? Maybe the first battlestars were initially designed to be primitive and were then slowly upgraded throughout the war as the Colonials became more confident in their security. If that ends up biting them in the ass in B&C, it would explain Adama's almost pathological aversion to networking the Galactica's computers ever again.