Best/Worst military forces in Science Fiction

[Stark]

Dude there's nothing narrow about it. 1985 with no special technology is not scifi, no matter how many fat people call 'alt history' scifi. If you have to post so much to explain you 'funny' top 10 list, maybe it just sucks.

When I get home from work I'm going to post an example of military competence in scifi; the battle of Palau. A single ship and a special forces team defeat a superior enemy force in their own harbours, achieving surprise, positive kill ratios and strategic victory despite being massively out-numbered and endeavouring to limit civilian casualties.

[evilsoup]

Man are you writing a cracked article or something?

[Stark]

Why - you wanna read it? :v

[evilsoup]

If it was written by you, Stark
'the 5 most annoying things about fatty nerds'
'6 things you like that are actually terrible'
something like that, yeah I'd read it

[Connor MacLeod]

I never liked the Ewoks/Rebel combine defeating the Empire ground troops at Endor. You know that shit would never happen in 40k.

No but I could think of lots of other equally horrid examples that would happen in 40K. Taros for example.

Or all those novels where the inept higher command leads to things being attritiontastic or generally inept (Fifteen hours, etc.)

I'm curious what sorts of standards we're expected to use for best/worst. Is it just like, subjective 'what we think' impressions, or is it something like 'sci fi militaries compared to modern military forces' or what? I can think of alot of 'standards' one could use other than just 'number of men, guns, ships' or how much boom your bombs/missiles have', and it would depend on the sort of circumstances that the forces in question are supposed to handle.

I mean if we put ST's starfleet in Iraq, and assuming we didn't hamstring them by taking away their starships, would they really be that incompetent at winning the victory? Maybe they wouldn't do it the way the US did (not nearly as many tanks or bombings.) but I think they could pull that off. Or the 'War on Terror.'


Or lets say you decide to judge 'competence' by pitting something absurdly high tech on the ground (like Hyperion verse FORCE) against something they're massively overmatched for. Do we judge competence by how thoroughly they slaughter the opposiiton, or would we judge it by the efficiency with which they conduct the war in terms of money expended, diplomacy, or things like that. Again I can see things being judged by criteria more than just tactics/training/firepower/etc depending on the parameters one is setting up.

[Stark]

I think talking about doctrinal or command failures is pretty valid; likewise situations of poor preparation or training, poor equipment, etc. Its just easier to say 'this decision was bad' or 'poor leadership lost the battle' than argue with novel nerds about whether or not the AR in Halo has sights.

The issue is probably where scifi guys are. Ring held to highs tandards han real life guys; in most cases, it's okay to make mistakes if you win. But most people dot bother looking at why the mistakes are made, to know whether the military as a whole is to blame or simply the individual situation.

[Daefaron]

7. The Imperium of Man, Warhammer 40,000

Reasoning: Don't hate me for this, but we clearly know that under the Emperor the whole galaxy had to bend over, but nowadays for every planet they retake they lose two and things just seem to be getting worse. Not because their enemies are just that powerful but because they themselves have weakened considerably and no amount of Canadian regiments can plug the gap and hold the line forever.

What are you talking about? Not only are their numerous enemies "just that powerful", but they also face near-crippling and unavoidable logistics issues because of their dependence on warp travel. In spite of this however, they've pretty much managed to break even for the last 10 000 years, and even the slightest breather would allow them to pretty much kick the shit out of nearly everyone else in the galaxy.

And they've lost the ability (supposedly) to replace many of their vehicles or structures in any decent manner, and I've heard the tech-priests actually ban anybody trying to figure out how a gun or armor works so it CAN be mass produced again.

IIRC, the Imperium of Man is stagnant to the max, they have more gear then not that's labeled like "Don't let them destroy this comm array, we can't replace them!". Add this to their utterly stupid military viewpoints "We must wear BRIGHT BLUE ARMOR." (etc), and viewing any deviance from those tactics as heresy and punishable by death. (Or just shooting people anyway for wanting to retreat)

Yes, they are 'holding even'. But the only reason they aren't steamrolling everything else is their own stupidity.

2. The Empire (Star Wars)

Reasoning: As mentioned and I think convincingly argued throughout this thread by D13, the Empire's tactics, weapon systems, and leadership all seem inherently self defeating despite the massive advantages their industrial and technological base provide. It really takes the cake to have virtually an entire galaxy at your disposal in one form or another and still lose and badly.

What? How are their tactics or weapons systems 'self defeating'? Endor wasn't exactly their shining moment, but in nearly every other engagement we see them in they preform (relatively) efficiently and effectively, and they basically beat the Rebels at nearly every turn. The fact that they're ruled by an evil wizard and his toadies is somewhat self-defeating to be sure, but then that's like saying the Wehrmacht sucked because Hitler was a deranged madman.

[/quote]

I have to agree with this one. I'm unsure how the weapon systems are 'self defeating'. Tactics, I can see that. They went more for "We arrive, bulk of your forces are scared to shit and run or surrender instantly." And in the long run, Intimidation over effectiveness can bite you in the ass. They viewed Ewoks as not really a threat, and that is true partly (I can explain why). But it was their "Oh, these guys can't become that fly that bugs you insanely" which screwed them over.

Anyway, back to Empire in general. Their tech wasn't their failing. It was the general "Oh, we do this, it'll scare everybody else into line." And Tarkin picked the worst planet to do it with. I'm sure their are plenty of others which didn't have the bigass sign of "We are pacifist, we don't even have weapons on the planet!" on them. So the Tarkin doctrine and the Emperor's obsession with himself and his plans could do it.

Edit:

I never liked the Ewoks/Rebel combine defeating the Empire ground troops at Endor. You know that shit would never happen in 40k.

Was mostly the rebels who defeated the empire. Ewoks just provided distraction and killed the two AT-ST's. Otherwise, they never really quickly killed any stormtroopers. (We don't see any dying from arrows, nor do we see any dying from being hit by rocks.)

[Skywalker]

Has anybody mentioned the cylons yet? They're the most efficient military in sci-fi I can think of. They defeated the human race in one episode.

Skynet did the same... and yet it clearly sucks.

[PeZook]

Was mostly the rebels who defeated the empire. Ewoks just provided distraction and killed the two AT-ST's. Otherwise, they never really quickly killed any stormtroopers. (We don't see any dying from arrows, nor do we see any dying from being hit by rocks.)

Thing is, they KNEW there were Rebel commandos there. The natives might not have been a threat at all, but they lost sight of their objective (defend the shield generator until the rebel fleet is wiped out), got overstretched and scattered in the forest and then defeated in detail.

It WAS incompetence. They had all the resources, communications gear and intelligence necessary to win that engagement.

Now, it's not STELLAR incompetence ; Things like that happened in history too many times to list, even to otherwise very competent armies ; but it is incompetence.

EDIT: Also, that article is immensely stupid. Why on earth could you POSSIBLY need humanlike robot infantry for fighting humans in immense ruins of cities designed by humans for human locomotion? WHY?

No no, the best way to root out infantry from all those nooks and crannies is to build GIANT LAND SHARKS.

Just watch Terminator 1 for a reason why you might want infantry to screen your gigantic high-profile hunter/killer tanks.

[NecronLord]

And they've lost the ability (supposedly) to replace many of their vehicles or structures in any decent manner, and I've heard the tech-priests actually ban anybody trying to figure out how a gun or armor works so it CAN be mass produced again.

IIRC, the Imperium of Man is stagnant to the max, they have more gear then not that's labeled like "Don't let them destroy this comm array, we can't replace them!". Add this to their utterly stupid military viewpoints "We must wear BRIGHT BLUE ARMOR." (etc), and viewing any deviance from those tactics as heresy and punishable by death. (Or just shooting people anyway for wanting to retreat)

Yes, they are 'holding even'. But the only reason they aren't steamrolling everything else is their own stupidity.

In recent decades the number of Storm Eagles in active service has begun to increase, especially amongst those Chapters known to have favourable relations with the Adeptus Mechanicus. This has lead some observers to believe that production has been restored at an as yet unknown location.

This is just one example. The AdMech loses shit - in a constant war setting. It also makes discoveries and rediscoveries at times. And occasionally it restores production of something that's been gone for ten thousand years.

[NecronLord]

EDIT: Also, that article is immensely stupid. Why on earth could you POSSIBLY need humanlike robot infantry for fighting humans in immense ruins of cities designed by humans for human locomotion? WHY?

No no, the best way to root out infantry from all those nooks and crannies is to build GIANT LAND SHARKS.

Just watch Terminator 1 for a reason why you might want infantry to screen your gigantic high-profile hunter/killer tanks.

I like that it thinks you don't need to trick the resistance. It's not like they have guns capable of "cooking terminators good" or anything.

[PeZook]

But...you could just drop a bomb on them! Every time and in every situation! Because they totally aren't hiding in bunkers and sewers and metro tunnels, right?

And of course the terminator in T1 actually FINDS the bunker he fucks up by attaching himself to a returning patrol at night, so...it basically work for finding the hideouts, just like intended?

EDIT: Although, yeah, he could've released nerve gas after gaining access, though it's by no means guaranteed Skynet can actually produce any.

[Simon_Jester]

I mean if we put ST's starfleet in Iraq, and assuming we didn't hamstring them by taking away their starships, would they really be that incompetent at winning the victory? Maybe they wouldn't do it the way the US did (not nearly as many tanks or bombings.) but I think they could pull that off. Or the 'War on Terror.'

They'd probably set the Starfleet record for "most uses of gratuitous beaming."

Five guys get into a house and two of them have guns, and you can't tell if they're terrorists or drinking buddies getting together to hunt? Beam them somewhere, double-check, and then beam them back. Screw drone strikes.

Beaming and that wacky "lock orbital sensors on this person" would be a pretty formidable combination for counter-insurgency, if you're willing to just do it a ridiculous number of times and have the facilities. People living in the area would get annoyed at being constantly teleported into your temporary holding facilities and checked for 'being a terrorist,' but it would be a lot less annoying and deadly than getting shot at or blown up with missiles.

Is it just me, or is there comedy potential in "the occupying army doesn't believe in killing people, so they just constantly use stun-blasters and teleport people out of their homes until it's about as common an annoyance as telemarketers."

[PeZook]

Also, they can reliably see through walls with their hand-held sensor devices (or, for that matter, from orbit).

It's also WAY easier to stop things like suicide bombings if you actually CAN fire into crowds (because stun phasers are, apparently, perfectly or close to perfectly safe - nobody has ever died from a stun blast on the show) to get the bomber.

Then you just arrest the bomber and give everybody else water, instead of having a pile of corpses and hundreds of angry families.

Also, sensors. Man, what would the US military give to have Star Trek "I see twenty guys in that house four of them have weapons and this guy is slightly stressed" sensors

[Daefaron]

Yeah, but knowing how often Starfleet transporters and scanners get messed up by random environmental factors (a certain type of rock or somesuch), the fellows in caves might be perfectly fine .

[PeZook]

Yeah, but knowing how often Starfleet transporters and scanners get messed up by random environmental factors (a certain type of rock or somesuch), the fellows in caves might be perfectly fine .

If they can't leave the caves to actually fight the alien opressors, then they lost already, haven't they?

[AMT]

Also, they can reliably see through walls with their hand-held sensor devices (or, for that matter, from orbit).

It's also WAY easier to stop things like suicide bombings if you actually CAN fire into crowds (because stun phasers are, apparently, perfectly or close to perfectly safe - nobody has ever died from a stun blast on the show) to get the bomber.

Actually the two assassins in ST6 were killed with a close range stun blast since a full power kill shot would set the alarms off. So it's probable that close range stuns can still kill.

[PeZook]

Huh. I didn't remember that.

[Stofsk]

That's like the only time stun has ever killed someone though.

[Batman]

Not to mention it was done on purpose.

[Daefaron]

Probably was repeated hits on a stun/heavy stun setting.

You know, like constantly hitting somebody with a taser will probably kill them.

[PeZook]

Plus, of course, their medical tech is basically magic so they could just check out the stunned crowd and fix any problems.

"Hmm, Achmed, your kidney is failing. Here, we'll remove it, and here's a pill that will grow you a new one. Come see me in a week for a check-up."

The problem in Afghanistan and less so in Iraq is that the guerillas can offer a better deal to a lot of people than the occupiers, from money to security. But here the occupier can not just viably police the place with tactics that the US simply cannot use (beaming people up, stunning potential threats at long range) but also give you magical medicine that make common problems and ailments just...go away. Wounds? Wave a magical thingie over them. Failing organs? We have pills for that. Infections? Hahahahaha. If it's not from a Delta Quadrant bug, don't worry.

EDIT: Oh. And UNIVERSAL TRANSLATORS that apparently translate not just grammar and syntax, but also tone and subtext. Just think about it.

[Skywalker]

No no, the best way to root out infantry from all those nooks and crannies is to build GIANT LAND SHARKS.

Obviously just a bad joke. I don't know why "better designs in nature" were even mentioned, there's no reason to mimic any animal at all.

Just watch Terminator 1 for a reason why you might want infantry to screen your gigantic high-profile hunter/killer tanks.

What are you talking about?

But...you could just drop a bomb on them! Every time and in every situation! Because they totally aren't hiding in bunkers and sewers and metro tunnels, right?

There are bombs for that.

Did you even read the second page? The part with the nuke-testicles. Why couldn't skynet cover its own hard drive in a layer of flesh and send itself back to a time before people? Even if, for some reason, the flesh-covered guns idea won't work, skynet still has infinite tries at killing the Connors. Why didn't it just send the T1000 back to kill Sarah Connor in the first place? Why didn't it send terminators to kill her grandparents and great-grandparents?

[AMT]

Probably was repeated hits on a stun/heavy stun setting.

You know, like constantly hitting somebody with a taser will probably kill them.

Nope. Was a single stun to the back of the head at close range, which was the difference. Was just pointing out that stun settings can kill is all.

[That NOS Guy]

Did you even read the second page? The part with the nuke-testicles. Why couldn't skynet cover its own hard drive in a layer of flesh and send itself back to a time before people? Even if, for some reason, the flesh-covered guns idea won't work, skynet still has infinite tries at killing the Connors. Why didn't it just send the T1000 back to kill Sarah Connor in the first place? Why didn't it send terminators to kill her grandparents and great-grandparents?

It's possible that whole thermonuclear war thing destroyed the requisite records for that.