some WH40K questions

[Lord Revan]

I was playing some Dawn of War skirmish matches and though of few WH40K related question (mostly Adepta Soritas but not all)

1. Would a penitent engine be considered to occopy roughly the same tactical position as a space marine dreadnaught?
2. Are there any checks and balances to prevent a high ranking Eccelesiarchy official from using SoB forces to his(/her?) own ends (even for personal reasons if you get my meaning) beond the fanatical faith of the sisters?
3. Are all priest of the Imperial cult men?
4. Is it correct to assume that, while in theory an inquisitor could order a space marine force with no better explanation then "'because I say so.", in practice how ever it's more likely that he needs to request the aid of the marines with the possibility that they could refuse, even if due the same political reasons that limit the inquisitors authority it's probable that the marines would anwser to the request to maintain peace within the Imperium?

[Serafina]

Would a penitent engine be considered to occopy roughly the same tactical position as a space marine dreadnaught?

Not in the Tabletop, and certainly not in the fluff. They have much lighter armor, no ranged weapons (flamethrowers don't really count) and are much more unpredictable (dreadnoughts are rational, penintent engines are berserkers).

Are there any checks and balances to prevent a high ranking Eccelesiarchy official from using SoB forces to his(/her?) own ends (even for personal reasons if you get my meaning) beond the fanatical faith of the sisters?

His peers, and the Inquisition.

Are all priest of the Imperial cult men?

No, there are female non-sororitas priests as well. The Tabletop models are male, as are most prominent examples in the fluff, but nowhere does it say that they are exclusively male and we have female examples in the roleplaying-fluff.

Is it correct to assume that, while in theory an inquisitor could order a space marine force with no better explanation then "'because I say so.", in practice how ever it's more likely that he needs to request the aid of the marines with the possibility that they could refuse, even if due the same political reasons that limit the inquisitors authority it's probable that the marines would anwser to the request to maintain peace within the Imperium?

Actually, Space Marines are independent in theory as well as in reality. An Inquisitor has no formal authority with which he could command Space Marines to do his bidding, he can only ask them to do so. Theoretically he can threaten to excommunicate their chapter, but that's a pretty hollow threat since such a decision is never made by a single Inquisitor.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Also, fully half of the Sororitas are under the purview of the Ordo Hereticus of the Inquisition, not the Ecclesiarchy. Those that do belong to the Ecclesiarchy tend to be above most of the priesthood; there are very few in the Ministorum with any really authority over what the Sororitas does.

As for Space Marines, it really depends on the Chapter. Each is effectively their own discrete political entity and must be considered on a mostly-individual basis. One Chapter may have a sworn oath or treaty with the Inquisition (or even one Inquisitor in particular), while another might be very hostile to any Inquisitorial interference.

[Lord Revan]

Actually, Space Marines are independent in theory as well as in reality. An Inquisitor has no formal authority with which he could command Space Marines to do his bidding, he can only ask them to do so. Theoretically he can threaten to excommunicate their chapter, but that's a pretty hollow threat since such a decision is never made by a single Inquisitor.

this is certainly new to me, I thought that inquisitors had in theory an absolute authority over pretty much every imperial organization with exceptions being the highlords and Adeptus Custodes (or how ever you spelt it), oh well it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, nor the last.

[Black Admiral]

Would a penitent engine be considered to occopy roughly the same tactical position as a space marine dreadnaught?

No, not really. Penitent Engines are considerably more expendable, for one thing.

Are there any checks and balances to prevent a high ranking Eccelesiarchy official from using SoB forces to his(/her?) own ends (even for personal reasons if you get my meaning) beond the fanatical faith of the sisters?

Well, there is the fact that if they start trying to be clever, the Sisters will kill them (as seen when one group of clergy try to circumvent the Decree Passive in Legion of the Damned (book also notable for Punisher, the Little Thunderfire Cannon That Could)). But beyond that, no, no specific restrictions.

Are all priest of the Imperial cult men?

As far as I'm aware, no, there's no restriction based on gender for the Imperial Clergy, although female clergy (at least, exclusively clergy; the Sisters of Battle seem to have equivalent authority for theological matters) don't seem to be common.

Is it correct to assume that, while in theory an inquisitor could order a space marine force with no better explanation then "'because I say so.", in practice how ever it's more likely that he needs to request the aid of the marines with the possibility that they could refuse, even if due the same political reasons that limit the inquisitors authority it's probable that the marines would anwser to the request to maintain peace within the Imperium?

Basically, yes. An Inquisitor can theoretically demand whatever he or she likes, off whoever he or she likes, and expect to get it. In practice, when dealing with groups like the Astartes and Mechanicus, it pays to be polite, else one may suffer a tragic bolter misfire/combat servitor-related accident. Most Astartes forces will generally go along with a polite request, providing it isn't too crazy.

[Sharp-kun]

From what I recall, the marines bow to the inquisition but in reality are pretty much allowed to do what they want, as long as they're sensible about it and don't openly complain.

There was a chapter (Celestial Lions?) that got into the inquisitions bad books by questioning their methods and found themselves wiped out by Orks due to "intelligence failures" on their next campaign.

[Iracundus]

As with so much else in 40K, the answer is dependent on the specifics of the situation when it comes to the Inquisition. In theory their power is unlimited and they can request anything and are not obligated to explain. However in practice their power is limited by the cooperation of other institutions and also the watching of other Inquisitors. In theory any Inquisitor can execute anyone, even all the High Lords, but they would never get away with it and would be condemned as a traitor and heretic by other Inquisitors and other Imperial institutions. An Inquisitor's actions are only justified when they meet with the approval of at least a significant number of their peers, enough to avoid an internal crackdown within the Inquisition.

Power exists where people believe it exists. If an Inquisitor just waltzed up by himself to an Imperial Governor and demanded all the resources and military of his planet be turned over to him personally, it is possible the Inquisitor might have an accident or "disappear". In the vast Imperium, such a thing might not be noticed for a long time if at all, as Inquisitors are already sometimes known to go undercover and lay low for long periods of time. Ultimately the Inquisition has authority and power only so long as other institutions back them up and agree to follow their dictates and place resources at the Inquisition's disposal. When well armed and independent organizations like Marine Chapters resist, the Inquisition's practical authority and power becomes sharply more limited, unless the Chapter is isolated politically or its behavior so far out of line that other organizations turn against it.

[MrDakka]

Its the grimdark future. The only checks and balances the Imperium has is the fact that everyone is aiming a gun at each other.

[Simon_Jester]

Inquisitors' power is usually enhanced by the fact that they spend so much time dealing with horrible threats that eat planets for breakfast. That makes them more credible than they would be otherwise, and enhances the perception of their authority and thus their ability to wield it safely.

[Grumman]

[*]Would a penitent engine be considered to occopy roughly the same tactical position as a space marine dreadnaught?

No. A Penitent Engine is uncontrollable cannon fodder, while a SM Dreadnought is a war veteran. The best you could hope for with the former is to keep them on a leash until the best time for them to start murdering heretics, while a Dreadnought is capable of following plans with more nuance.

[*]Are there any checks and balances to prevent a high ranking Eccelesiarchy official from using SoB forces to his(/her?) own ends (even for personal reasons if you get my meaning) beond the fanatical faith of the sisters?

The Inquisition definitely could, and the Sisters' job is, in part, to stop any priest trying to make himself another Vandire.

[*]Are all priest of the Imperial cult men?

They shouldn't be.

[Chris OFarrell]

RE Inquisitors, while its true that a lot of their power only exists so far as everyone THINKS it does, well, the same could be said for just about all the Imperiums institutions as well for that matter.

The Inquisition also takes great pains, for the most part, to present a unified front to the 'outside' world at the low to mid levels of power, its only the high end of the major factions (that the Inquisition would never be stupid enough to directly take on unless there were incredibly public reasons for doing so) that really have any idea of the scope of the differences and factions inside the Inquisition.

As far as your average Governer is concerned, the Inquisition is a monolithic organization with countless horrible horrible ways to make you, your planet and your star cluster suffer and die if you give any lip back to their representitives, an image they have spent considerable amounts of time maintaining and training their people ruthlessley from day 1 to project. At the same time, most of them also are fully aware of the RIGHT way and the WRONG way to interface with equally powerful people and institutions in the Imperium...and said institutions have also learned where the line lies. Mostly. There is sort of a bit of a grey area where the Inquisitions might be going a bit far or where said institutions might not be going far enough, that falls to how good the Inquisitor is.

Space Marine Chapters essentially seem to follow a straight forward enough rule where they will fully co-operate with the Inquisition if it is in their interests, albeit, as partners and not subbordinates. They will fully co-operate with the Inquisition if their requst is clearly for the good of the Imperium, and said request is hardly unreasnoble (E.G asking for a squad or two to help clear out a Space Hulk or investigate Heritic activity as the hard backup if something is found). They will consider carefully their response to requests that go too far in their view and perhaps 'bargin' down to a smaller commitment citing 'urgent bla bla bla campaign bla bla bla' or whatever as a cover. And only in the worst case will they cause an Inquisitor to vanish, and even then, its going to depend GREATLY on how powerful the chapter is.

The Dark Angels for example have a habit of 'vanishing' Inquisitors that pry too deeply into their secrets and the Inquisition 'tollerates' it because the Dark Angels are very good at what they do, are a First Founding Chapter and are incredibly careful to make bloody sure there is no hard evidence about their actions against nosy Inquisitors that would force the Inquisition to directly act against them (and its unclear to what level the Inquisition understands exactly what is going on, clearly they know they are hiding SOMETHING big, but...).
But by the same token, they also comply with most straight forward requests without comment, as do their successor chapters.

The Inquisitions own direct forces are hardly inconsequantial, as is their web of allies and alliences through the Imperium on the whole, disregarding those that they could in theory call on simply by exercising their authority, are rather considerable. Add on to that fact that the Inquisition HAS wipped out Space Marine chapters in the past and made no secret of doing so, shows that they have the ability to do this if you really push them too far, and most Space Marine chapters are not going to want to start a war with the Inquisition. Hell, look at the Blood Ravens. On one hand, they have a lot of question marks that have the Inquisition looking into them very carefully...on the other, they by canon have a long history as scholars who have worked very cloesly WITH the Inquisition, to the point that they shared a great deal of knowledge with them over time.

So go figure.

[Irbis]

this is certainly new to me, I thought that inquisitors had in theory an absolute authority over pretty much every imperial organization with exceptions being the highlords and Adeptus Custodes (or how ever you spelt it), oh well it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong, nor the last.

Space Marine autonomy comes directly from the order of Big E himself, and so far, no one had the authority to dismiss any of the laws he left. Even the absurd, ad-hoc crisis laws, like Land Raider Order, are left alone because they're that Holy.

Speaking of Inquisition, though, I wonder where these guys were on 4-5 occasions someone usurped IoM for himself. Took a cuppa break?

[Lord Revan]

At least the reign of blood can be explained by the fact it was before the Ordo Hereticus was founded Ordo Malleus and ordo Xenos wouldn't have had internal politics as part of their duties.

also what would the other 3-4 times be?

[Gunhead]

Regarding Inquisitorial authority, like others have already stated it's not as absolute as it would seem to be. For the most part, full blown inquisitors affect things on a relatively high level i.e planetary governors and so forth. This still leaves them reliant on the organization that they "hijacked" to do as they are told and in several instances the inquisitor has limited means of making sure the organization does it's best to do his bidding, not to mention he cannot disclose usually what his real agenda is making it even harder to get the result he wanted. Enter the acolytes. They are one of the best low level controllers the inquisitor has, but they again are hampered by rules and regulation and the usual need for secrecy and other complications mean they cannot invoke inquisitorial authority even if it had been given to them.
Cutting through all the red tape is all fine and good, but if you don't exercise caution you can get a lot of people in really high places pissed at you and yes, they have the clout and means to hurt you. Even a "lowly" planetary governor of bumfuckville can have wast resources at his disposal and while the inquisitor could match him, it's not likely his resources are on call and it takes him longer to muster them. More importantly, lot of inquisitorial resources are not directly in inquisitions control and have other obligations to meet which they cannot ignore. That's the difference between overt and covert control of something.

-Gunhead

[Irbis]

At least the reign of blood can be explained by the fact it was before the Ordo Hereticus was founded Ordo Malleus and ordo Xenos wouldn't have had internal politics as part of their duties.

also what would the other 3-4 times be?

Examples:

M32: Drakan Vangorich coups IoM, grabs power, gets gunned down after a few years by SM for his trouble.
M35: Ur-council of Nova Terra rebels claim entire Segmentum Pacificus for almost millenium.
M35: Ecclesiarchy starts grabbing more and more power in wars known as Cataclysm of Souls, which will culminate with Age of Apostasy, but there would be no Vandire if someone put the brakes on back then;
M36: Cardinal Bucharis grabs another Segmentum, Obscurus, before moving on to Segmentum Pacificus and grabbing Battlefleet Pacificus for his own, only breaking his teeth in genocidal campaign against full might of Fenris; He was close to ordering attack on Terra before he was stopped.

And these are just of Segmentum-wide problems, uprisings of 'just' a few thousands worlds, like Macharian Heresy, Occlusiad War, or Obscuran Uprisings are considerably more common, yet no one prevented them either, requiring full SM/IG intervention to put stop to them.

[NecronLord]

I'm pretty sure the power of the Space Marines involved is the sole determinant of their independance. The old Space Wolf background that had Logan Grimnar strongly disliking the inquisition raised no question of them doing anything about or to him, for example, because attacking the Space Wolves is another level entirely from attacking something like the Blood Ravens of Celestial Lions.

As for the Ur-Council of Nova Terra, literally the only thing we know about them is that they opposed the High Lords and the ecclesiarchy. For all we know they may be the true and legitimate inheritors of the Emperor's actual ideals, or they may be a chaos cult, we don't know if they actually defied the Emperor at all.

[Lord Revan]

btw how many of those predate Vandire and thus the founding of Ordo Hereticus?

Unless it was reconned, the inquisition didn't care much about the internal politics of the Imperium (unless there was certain daemon or xenos influence) until the reign of blood ended with Vandire's death when it was desided that heretics are as much of a threat to the imperium and daemons and Xenos.

basically dealing with traitors and heretics wasn't in their mandate until after the reign of blood.

[PainRack]

I'm more interested what role the Arbites play with regards to those rebellions. Those certainly predate the reign of blood and their role as the arbiter of Imperial/High council law means one of their main roles is in preventing rebellion and maintaining the flow of tithes.

Its just a huge... pity that in the last decade, the Arbites have been systematically left in the sidelines. Early on in the Black Library, there was one novel dedicated to the Arbites(rubbish from what I gather), now, any fluff about them comes from their interaction as Inquisition henchmen and/or occasional interaction with guardsmen. The only major fluff I can remember from the novels was their appearence in Ben Counter Grey Knight omnibus.


I love to see a story about how Imperial rule breaks down and its the Arbiters, the rule of law who stepped in to stop the chaos from getting worse, maintaining Imperial rule and the flow of tithes off-world.

[Brother-Captain Gaius]

Read the Shira Calpurnia series. It's pure Arbites. Very interesting books, IMO, if only because Farrer really comes at the 40k universe from a much different perspective.

[Bladed_Crescent]

There's also Execution Hour, which sadly is only available via special order from the black library website. But aside from being a very good read in general, an arbites unit also plays a not-insignificant role in the story.

[Irbis]

btw how many of those predate Vandire and thus the founding of Ordo Hereticus?

Out of the 4 above? 2 predate him, 1 is concurrent, 1 is post-Vandire.

Unless it was reconned, the inquisition didn't care much about the internal politics of the Imperium (unless there was certain daemon or xenos influence) until the reign of blood ended with Vandire's death when it was desided that heretics are as much of a threat to the imperium and daemons and Xenos.

No? Wasn't the whole Assassin Temple founded to use against internal dissidents, as Inquisitorial tool? And for that matter, wasn't Inquisition itself founded to combat heresy? Horus Heresy, to be specific, Ordo Xenos came relatively late and Deamons were more of GK domain, I was under impression heresy was their primary target.

I'm pretty sure the power of the Space Marines involved is the sole determinant of their independance. The old Space Wolf background that had Logan Grimnar strongly disliking the inquisition raised no question of them doing anything about or to him, for example, because attacking the Space Wolves is another level entirely from attacking something like the Blood Ravens of Celestial Lions.

And yet, Church/Sisters waged their private shooting war against Space Wolves for a while and no one appeared concerned...

As for the Ur-Council of Nova Terra, literally the only thing we know about them is that they opposed the High Lords and the ecclesiarchy. For all we know they may be the true and legitimate inheritors of the Emperor's actual ideals, or they may be a chaos cult, we don't know if they actually defied the Emperor at all.

Wouldn't it make it worse? That means not one Segmentum seceded, but all but one, and the last loyal Segmentum was supposedly genocided by Ecclesiarchy...

[Lost Soal]

Unless it was reconned, the inquisition didn't care much about the internal politics of the Imperium (unless there was certain daemon or xenos influence) until the reign of blood ended with Vandire's death when it was desided that heretics are as much of a threat to the imperium and daemons and Xenos.

No? Wasn't the whole Assassin Temple founded to use against internal dissidents, as Inquisitorial tool? And for that matter, wasn't Inquisition itself founded to combat heresy? Horus Heresy, to be specific, Ordo Xenos came relatively late and Deamons were more of GK domain, I was under impression heresy was their primary target.

The Officio Assassinorum dates back to the Horus Heresy and dealt with whatever threats were better dealt with by a single person than a whole army. Later on the became tools used for political advancement and were even used against the High Lords which resulted in changes being put into effect to prevent that from happening again, one of which was a new Inquisitorial Ordo to act as oversight

[Lord Revan]

Unless it was reconned, the inquisition didn't care much about the internal politics of the Imperium (unless there was certain daemon or xenos influence) until the reign of blood ended with Vandire's death when it was desided that heretics are as much of a threat to the imperium and daemons and Xenos.

No? Wasn't the whole Assassin Temple founded to use against internal dissidents, as Inquisitorial tool? And for that matter, wasn't Inquisition itself founded to combat heresy? Horus Heresy, to be specific, Ordo Xenos came relatively late and Deamons were more of GK domain, I was under impression heresy was their primary target.

I'm pretty sure it was said that ordo hereticus was founded to deal with heresy at the scale of the reign of blood, also daemons are the Gray Knight's task because they're used by the Ordo Malleus for that task (and were indeed founded for that task), without that they are just another space marine chapter (granted a non-codex one).