Avengers (Spoilers)

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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by Gil Hamilton »

mr friendly guy wrote:Fair enough and I retract the statement. Although why would you be baffled by Thanos? They need a "big bad" to borrow the term from Joss Whedon for the next movie, and Thanos in the Marvel universe is pretty bad ass. I would have gone with Kang or Ultron before bringing on Thanos, but lets see what they can do with the mad Titan.
I think Thanos is a good choice for the villain of a third movie if they made a trilogy, because they can't really up the ante from him without getting silly. As it is, Thanos is kind of rough, given that only Thor on the Avengers team is really much of a match for him, but they'd almost certainly have Iron Man and Captain America mixing it up with him anyway, meaning their going to have nerf him just so the Avengers actually pose a credible threat to him beyond:

"Go get 'em, Thor!"
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by jollyreaper »

I read the wiki on Thanos and he comes across as an incredibly stupid and pointless character. Was he salvaged in later plots or something?
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by MrDakka »

Gil Hamilton wrote: As it is, Thanos is kind of rough, given that only Thor on the Avengers team is really much of a match for him
What about the Hulk? Isn't this kind of fight one of the main reasons the Avengers have him on the team? Assuming of course Thanos does get into a fistfight with Hulk.
jollyreaper wrote:I read the wiki on Thanos and he comes across as an incredibly stupid and pointless character. Was he salvaged in later plots or something?
You want stupid and pointless, read about his brother Eros/Starfox
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by streetad »

We don't know for sure that Thanos WILL be the villain in the next film. The way he was used was really as a reinforcement of the whole 'now Earth is protected and we don't have to resort to those nasty Nazi laser guns' idea. It could be simply a cameo for the nerdier viewers.
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by mr friendly guy »

jollyreaper wrote:I read the wiki on Thanos and he comes across as an incredibly stupid and pointless character. Was he salvaged in later plots or something?
He was a pretty manipulative and powerful in Infinity gauntlet. After that there was only more of the same, with Thanos getting more powerful items giving him more power, only for him to lose it again. Power wise he is capable of holding off Thor and the Thing.
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by Bright »

jollyreaper wrote:I read the wiki on Thanos and he comes across as an incredibly stupid and pointless character. Was he salvaged in later plots or something?
Thanos is a pretty awesome villain, and it's idiotic to make assumptions about that based on a vague Wikipedia summary.
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by Dargos »

Saw it today with my sons. Loved the movie. it was great seeing my childhood come to life on the big screen. Its rather embarrassing to be a 41 year old man laughing with true childish pleasure seeing Hulk smash a puny god :D . I strongly recommend seeing this film.
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by Sharp-kun »

I will not deny that I cried manly tears at some scenes.
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by Pendleton »

Brilliant film. Whedon has made two of the best cinematic experiences this year thus far, and all my doubts over how the lead up to this would work into a good pay off are unfounded. I've very rarely been in a screen as packed with so many people really into the experience.
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

Awesome fucking movie. Lots of action and humor, and every single member got to do lots of awesome stuff. No one hogged the attention.
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

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Hulk!
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Smash!
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by Chris OFarrell »

Best bit HAS to be when Hulk smashed Loki through the window into Stark Tower. The dramatic music starts up, he stands up, an enraged look comes across his faceas if he is about to unleash all hell in an utter fury as he shouts "ENOUGH! I AM A GOD you dumb CREATURE, and I will NOT be bullied by-"

- Annnnnd the Hulk at that point quite literally picks up Loki and smashes him left-right-left-right-left-right like a f*#King RAG DOLL!!!!!

Leaving him half embeded into the floor making rather pathetic whining noises as the Hulk stomps away muttering...
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

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Muttering "Puny God." Best one liner.
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by Chris OFarrell »

Further on the movie, I think it worked exactly as it was supposed to work, a fun action superhero movie that only holds up if you don't think TOO closely about much of it.

Which is exactly what should be happening with Superhero movies mind you. I do think that they could have trimmed down some of the fight scenes to make room for some extra time on certian other plot points...but it worked well enoughl.

As said, the writing was REALLY well done in terms of giving everyone screen time yet doing it incredibly smoothly and naturally so it didn't FEEL like 'Now thats enough time on X, lets go to Y....okay now to Z'.

With the possible exception of Loki.

I would have liked more backstory on his backers and their ultimate motives. They just felt like they were there to tick a box, "oh he needs an army, lets just say this guy and we're done!'. I never got around to seeing Thor, its the one movie out of the sequence I missed because I just wasn't interested enough, so if it was justified in there, fair enough, but otherwise its just annoying that 2-3 mins more film written well could have made them much more of a threat, as opposed to a Left For Dead type 'KILL AS MANY BAD GUYS AS QUICKLY AS YOU CAN!' threat at the end.

Oh, and his "I'm going to place the Avengers in an easily escapable situation involving an overly elaborate and exotic plan!" thing was rather eyes rolling worthy, letting himself be captured just in the hope that they all go at each others throats and the hulk gets loose. The fact that it worked was far more down to the Avengers stupidity than anything else which made Loki far too Cliché for my tastes.
Still, Tom Hiddleston did a good job all things considered, even if his 'See you hate freedom, isn't slavery awesome?' style got a little annoyingly shallow after a short time.

Back to the Avengers though, they really fit their parts perfecty.

Downey Jr as always is still just brilliant as Stark, and I have to say I love the subtle ways his incredible technological skill is shown off. Example, when SHIELDS carrier starts getting blown up good, he is the first person turned to right then and there to get out there and fix the problem, despite the fact that he probably has never BEEN on this carrier before, because he is just THAT level of f*#(king Genius he is able to quickly figure the problem and fix it. Nice to see Paltrow show up a few times, I thought it was going to be a five second thing and then thats it, which was nice. Although I would have been a bit happier if Stark had been the one to ask Jennings to make the phone call at the end rather than the other way around.

Chris Evans still worked well as the Captain, although the uniform needs work rather urgently. The didn't go overboard with the whole 'I'm out of my time!' which can always be a risk...if anything, I'd suggest they probably underdid it a little. Quietly handing $10 to Fury when he walks onto the bridge was well done though as was the 'last time I was in Germany' line to Loki. The sudden assuming command at the end there was cool but still felt a little jarring, they had been laying the groundwork but not enough of it for 'The Moment' IMHO.

Chris Hemsworth did well as Thor to maintain an almost 'alien' sense about him, no small thing given that he just runs like another version of Captain America for the most part. As I never saw Thor, its hard for me to say terribly much about his character. Worked well enough and turning the Empire State Building into a giant Telsa Coil was rather cool.

Mark Ruffalo pulled off Banner well, although I did keep rolling my eyes at Fury, Romanoff and the like who kept slowly moving their hands to their sidearms every time Banner got a little miffed. I mean FFS, you KNOW thats not going to work and looking like you are getting ready to shoot is rather counter productive. Still, the pairing of him and Stark was great, the two brilliant scientists tapdancing away on their keyboards and so on. And the arrival on the motorbike was hillarious.

Renner as Barton and Johansson as Romanoff worked well enough I suppose. I honsetly couldn't care too much about their romance -although that might be down to the heavy talking moments between them being drowned out by a bunch of kids in the theater who wouldn't shut up at that point, but thats young kids for you- but they did well enough in providing useful plot points to the otherwise overpowering team. Barton especially in providing the invaluable aid to Loki and Romanoff...no sorry, I still can't find much about her to care about (except for how hot Johansson looks in a skintight cat suit). She played her roll well, but the roll itself I'm...just not seeing except as a tangent to Barton for the most part. Their participation in the final battle just felt incredibly silly, the MIGHTY BOW AND ARROW and DUEL WEILDED PISTOLS!

When you have a man in advanced power armor, a Demigod, a man with extreme anger management issues and a mutant barely holding the line by throwing everything they have at the enemy, their survival is just silly. Romanoff SHOULD have been making for Stark Tower from the get go instead of frigen leaping onto alien fighters and surfing up to the tower. She and Barton could have been running up stairs, through buildings, hooking onto Elevators to go up e.t.c. to get to the Tesseract and you could have played to their strengths while keeping it sensible.

Instead we get the MIGHTY BOW AND ARROW SNIPER and DUEL WEILDING KUNG-FU DEATH! Which was rather 'meh' to me.

Poor Coulson :( He did well enough though, and his final comments about his death providing something for the Avengers to unite around was a rather poignant moment

Jackson as always was awesome, although I was a bit surprised at the fact that the VTOL the bad guys used to get onto the Carrier was apparently a clown car given how many damn commandos kept attacking the bridge that Furry kept cheerfully picking off with his little handgun despite them being in full body armor (unless they were just getting back up because of said armor, it would have been nice to make that clear). Wonder where the hell the security forces on this thing were, we got a single shot of people grabbing rifles from a rack and then...nothing?
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

Chris Evans still worked well as the Captain, although the uniform needs work rather urgently. The didn't go overboard with the whole 'I'm out of my time!' which can always be a risk...if anything, I'd suggest they probably underdid it a little. Quietly handing $10 to Fury when he walks onto the bridge was well done though as was the 'last time I was in Germany' line to Loki. The sudden assuming command at the end there was cool but still felt a little jarring, they had been laying the groundwork but not enough of it for 'The Moment' IMHO.
They'll probably save the Captain America centric stuff for Captain America 2. You should really watch Thor, IMO its the best movie apart from the original Iron Man. And Loki is the villain of course, which goes a long way to them not bothering to give Loki too much motivation in this one - they safely assumed that most people would have already seen Thor :)
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

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Chris OFarrell wrote:Oh, and his "I'm going to place the Avengers in an easily escapable situation involving an overly elaborate and exotic plan!" thing was rather eyes rolling worthy, letting himself be captured just in the hope that they all go at each others throats and the hulk gets loose. The fact that it worked was far more down to the Avengers stupidity than anything else which made Loki far too Cliché for my tastes.
I assumed that Loki's Scepter of Lesser Brainwashing was generating some kind of low level telepathic influence around itself. The way the camera kept focusing on it and how Banner grabs it without realizing towards the end of the discussion makes me mighty suspicious of that thing and we know that the thing ain't limited to touch based mindrape, since Loki was using it to fire energy bolts and as a long range communicator (telepathic?) to chat with his alien backer.
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by AniThyng »

I laughed really hard at the part where Fury talks about flying monkeys and Captain America exclaims "I understood that reference!" with a glee that perfectly captures in a subtle way how he is out of his time and probably doesn't really 'get' modern pop culture.

Tony Stark's choice of casual t-shirt was hilarious, as was basically all his lines.

The old security guard and Banner. I still recall the "more stretchy?" clothes shopping bit from Hulk :D

I think a sure sign the movie worked was the fact that the audience was fully involved every step of the way, the laughs and cheers and clapping (i think after hulk slammed loki). :D

...Why did he hand Fury $10 anyway, did he make a bet on something? I must have missed the set up for that one :S
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by mr friendly guy »

AniThyng wrote:I laughed really hard at the part where Fury talks about flying monkeys and Captain America exclaims "I understood that reference!" with a glee that perfectly captures in a subtle way how he is out of his time and probably doesn't really 'get' modern pop culture.

Tony Stark's choice of casual t-shirt was hilarious, as was basically all his lines.

The old security guard and Banner. I still recall the "more stretchy?" clothes shopping bit from Hulk :D

I think a sure sign the movie worked was the fact that the audience was fully involved every step of the way, the laughs and cheers and clapping (i think after hulk slammed loki). :D

...Why did he hand Fury $10 anyway, did he make a bet on something? I must have missed the set up for that one :S
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by Zinegata »

The look on Cap's face as he handed over the $10 bill was great too. It was like "Damn".
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by Alkaloid »

Er, not quite.

Loki's overall plan failed, but the steps that succeeded were
1. Stealing the tessaract
Yep, success, no bones about it.
2. Stealing the tritium or whatever that thing which stabilised the gate was. He got the eye scan of that scientist while Hawkeye did the stealing. Even getting captured was clearly part of his plan, or else he would not have surrendered so easily and he would have ran away while Thor, IM and Cap were too busy fighting among themselves. A point noted when Fury asked why is it that only he (Loki) seems to want to be here (on the Hellicarrier).
Yeah, again, success. I'm not convinced he expected Thor to show up, I think he though it was possible but unlikely given that getting Thor there involved black magics of some sort by Odin.
3. Damaging the SHIELD Hellicarrier and in the process killing goodness knows how many agents.

It looked like Black Widow got the better of him in their verbal stoush, until you realise it wasn't just loosing the Hulk that was in his plan. It was Hawkeye and some brainwashed humans rescuing him and damaging the Hellicarrier. That, she didn't infer from Loki's taunts.

I also remember Banner starting to turn into the Hulk during the attack before Black Widow gave her speech to him. So I am giving the credit to Loki for this one, since I doubt Banner would have changed into the Hulk if the Helicarrier wasn't attacked.
The team was a backup option in case the Hulk didn't trash the carrier on his own, and there to get Loki, who can't fly, out. This step was a total failure, the only success he had was actually escaping.
The helicarrier was damaged, but only superficially. He killed some SHIELD agents, but he left with far fewer men than he came with, (admittedly he needs his men far less) he lost his best agent to the other side. Stark seeing his interview with Romanov allowed him to guess where Lokis plan was going down, so they could actually get there in time to attempt to pre-empt him and bottleneck the portal, which they did. The Hulk was moved out of the vital parts of the carrier because Romanov worked out what was coming, and once they were aware of the effect the sceptre was having on them they seemed more or less immune to it, so Banner moved away, didn't kill anyone or destroy anything vital, was thrown from the carrier close enough to ride a motorbike to the centre of New York in time for things to go down, and Thor escaped his prison, which means Loki either knew he could do so or actually allowed himself to be locked in a cage that would kill him. Nothing about this part of the plan went right except Loki didn't actually die.
4. He killed Colson.
Ok wasn't part of his original plan, but he improvised quite quick. Killing a character we had grown to love over the Iron Man and Thor movies just increased Loki's villain status. It just makes you want to hate him more.
Yeah, that was upsetting and given that Colson (Colson, Coulson? I dunno) seemed to be Nick Fury in absentia is likely to hurt SHIELD long term. Handy, but not important for this plan.
5. He managed to scatter the Avengers - ie temporarily trapped Thor in the Hulk jail before the Thunder god broke out, Hulk was lost due to his own rage causing him to attack that pilot etc.
Not far enough to matter. Banner was ten minutes late, and Stark had time to go home and get changed.
Essentially all of Loki's plans up to opening a portal and letting the alien invaders in succeeded. The ideal situation for the Avengers would have been to prevent the portal opening, the damage to New York by the invaders, the council launching a nuke at Manhattan etc happening in the first place. Sure its not as glorious as what we saw, but its not about glory.
Sure it wasn't a bad plan, especially by comic movie standards. Simple, tries to use the heroes flaws against them. The one scene in the movie that exemplifies his whole plan was when he catches Hawkeyes arrow and it blows up in his face. Hawkeye worked for him for days, he should have damn well known that was going to happen, but he consistently underestimated the heroes.
However it turned out that Loki's allies weren't powerful enough to defeat the Avengers. And even then the Avengers utilised the nuke launched by the Council to win. If there wasn't a nuke, arguably it would have been harder going, ie IM's power levels were low, Hawkeye had ran out of arrows etc.
The nuke didn't matter, Romanov and Selvig were ready to close the portal about when Stark grabbed hold of it and were stalling up until then. Had he not done that then there would have been an extra few hours hunting down the aliens that had already come through, but that wasn't going to be enough to pose a serious threat to earth at all given the most powerful weapon they had could be one shotted by at least Stark, Hulk and Thor and there was only one of those left alive by then anyway.
With the possible exception of Loki.

I would have liked more backstory on his backers and their ultimate motives. They just felt like they were there to tick a box, "oh he needs an army, lets just say this guy and we're done!'. I never got around to seeing Thor, its the one movie out of the sequence I missed because I just wasn't interested enough, so if it was justified in there, fair enough, but otherwise its just annoying that 2-3 mins more film written well could have made them much more of a threat, as opposed to a Left For Dead type 'KILL AS MANY BAD GUYS AS QUICKLY AS YOU CAN!' threat at the end.
Yeah, it did assume a lot of prior knowledge, at least Iron man 1 and 2 and Thor, Captain America and Nortons Hulk to a lesser degree. Not a bad thing in this case as they are designed to be a series.
The old security guard and Banner. I still recall the "more stretchy?" clothes shopping bit from Hulk
That old security guard, was he Doc Brown? I recognised the actor but I wasn't quite sure.
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

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Chris OFarrell wrote:Oh, and his "I'm going to place the Avengers in an easily escapable situation involving an overly elaborate and exotic plan!" thing was rather eyes rolling worthy, letting himself be captured just in the hope that they all go at each others throats and the hulk gets loose. The fact that it worked was far more down to the Avengers stupidity than anything else which made Loki far too Cliché for my tastes.
It looked to me that they were trying to emulate the Joker's plot in The Dark Knight. Plus you get some (potentially) good hero/villain back and forth early in the story.
Instead we get the MIGHTY BOW AND ARROW SNIPER and DUEL WEILDING KUNG-FU DEATH! Which was rather 'meh' to me.
I heard that Hawkeye was set up to be a backup in case RDJ didn't want to do the film. I guess that's why he doesn't do too much for the first half.
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by Lost Soal »

mr friendly guy wrote:
And we get to see the next villain. Its none other than Thanos. So they are bringing out the big cosmic guns for the next set of movies. Interesting.
Huh. I actually thought it was Red Skull when I saw it, but yes, the images of Thanos do match the way he looked. Somehow though I don't think I'll have been the only person to see a red face and come up with that conclusion.
Gandalf wrote:Why didn't Loki's evil spear work on Stark? Was his wristband protecting him, did the arc reactor interfere, or did Loki just get really unlucky in where he hit him?
I thought it was the Arc light reactor. Tony doesn't have much of a heart. Which is silly if you think about it, because brainwashing should work on the brain, but I can buy this.
Pretty certain it was Starks $200 magnetic bracelets which protected him.
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

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Lost Soal wrote:
mr friendly guy wrote:
And we get to see the next villain. Its none other than Thanos. So they are bringing out the big cosmic guns for the next set of movies. Interesting.
Huh. I actually thought it was Red Skull when I saw it, but yes, the images of Thanos do match the way he looked. Somehow though I don't think I'll have been the only person to see a red face and come up with that conclusion.
Gandalf wrote:Why didn't Loki's evil spear work on Stark? Was his wristband protecting him, did the arc reactor interfere, or did Loki just get really unlucky in where he hit him?
I thought it was the Arc light reactor. Tony doesn't have much of a heart. Which is silly if you think about it, because brainwashing should work on the brain, but I can buy this.
Pretty certain it was Starks $200 magnetic bracelets which protected him.
I thought the bracelet was some-sort of homing device/remote control for the Mark 7 suit? Certainly looked like it was the arc reactor that was making the clanging sound.
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by Jade Owl »

Lost Soal wrote:
mr friendly guy wrote:
And we get to see the next villain. Its none other than Thanos. So they are bringing out the big cosmic guns for the next set of movies. Interesting.
Huh. I actually thought it was Red Skull when I saw it, but yes, the images of Thanos do match the way he looked. Somehow though I don't think I'll have been the only person to see a red face and come up with that conclusion.
I knew it was Thanos as soon as his lackey said that attacking Earth would be "Courting Death". isn't that Thanos' thing? That he's obssesed/in love with Death?

I thought that's why he smiled at the end.
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Re: Avengers (Spoilers)

Post by mr friendly guy »

Lost Soal wrote:I actually thought it was Red Skull when I saw it, but yes, the images of Thanos do match the way he looked. Somehow though I don't think I'll have been the only person to see a red face and come up with that conclusion..
The face looked purple to me. Also I doubt the Red Skull would be affiliated with alien invaders to the extent where he controls it. However controlling alien soldiers seems a bit more up Thanos's alley.
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