Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extractor

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Iracundus
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by Iracundus »

bilateralrope wrote:
powerful space fleets- fluff wise yes TA has spaceships massive ones at that using just 5 starships they can evacuate a planet of billions.
When you say evacuate, do you mean the ship carries away the body of each person. Or do you just mean they uploaded the mind of each person into the ships data banks to install in a new body at a safer location ?
I think this is the bit gamer is making reference to, from the archived official Cavedog Galactic War reports (which in terms of official canonicity would be equivalent to something published on GW's websites, like the results of GW online campaigns like Armageddon 3, as both are holders of their respective IPs):
A number of Arm Commanders fell upon a back-up plan early this week in a turn that shocked and surprised the galaxy. In a mass exodus, commanding officers worked fast in evacuating the world of Empyrrean, feverishly moving friends and family from the capital world in the face of its impending demise at the hands of the unstoppable Core onslaught.
http://web.archive.org/web/199911101134 ... _4-12.html
The warm orange glow of the engine burst into new life as the drive kicked into high gear. Five enormous Arm Pioneer-class Colony ships broke formation and rocketed off in different directions. Family and friends were separated, hurriedly packed into the craft as the Core closed its steely fist around Empyrrean.
http://web.archive.org/web/199911101324 ... _4-20.html
Arm Commanders formed a ring around the colony craft, the enormous steel ship casting shadows under the world's two suns. In the distance, the smoke from Glynholm castle rose into the skies like a volcano going off. The Commanders looked at each other nervously, shaking their heads. For weeks, they had set about building the defensive ring around this ship, and now was the time that all their work would be put to the test. Core had taken the castle, but there was little they could do about it. It was either Glynholm or the clones in the ship behind them.

Faces peered out the windows of the starship, watching with fear for the attack that would surely come. Though many of the numbers had been removed weeks ago by Glynholm's fleets, many still remained.
http://web.archive.org/web/199911102209 ... _5-25.html
The population of the Arm capital world was never explicitly stated so the capacity of these ships is not known. The reference to civilians peering out the windows shows they are still conventional transport ships carrying flesh bodies around, and this is also because these are Arm ships. Core is the side that is about uploading minds into data banks and abandoning the flesh, which sort of parallels Necrons.

Now if one starts examining the technologies of the TA universe vs. the Necrons:

Starships: We have no idea of the capabilities of TA starships other than they exist, and that some appear to be armed. Insufficient data to make any real comparisons.

"Magical technobabble":
Both sides have weapons that just do things that is not fully explainable by modern science. In the new Necron Codex, it mentions how Gauss weapons use "molecular disassembling beam" to reduce targets to their constituent atoms. How a molecular disassembling beam works is not described other than it does.

This is the bit from the TA manual that gamer is repeatedly referring to:
Energy cannons are similar to standard cannons, except that they fire energy shells. Energy shells are very powerful lasers which fire for several seconds and are frozen in a tiny grid of space time. This grid is then launched in a manner similar to a rail gun, (but using vacuum fluctuations rather than electro-magnetic fields). When the energy shell reaches the target, the entire energy is given off at once in a near microscopic area. No armor can with stand the temperatures generated, and the spray of metal plasma destroys the interior of the target (the spray of plasma is forced inside the unit by the intense light pressure). This weapon is has a flat trajectory and only does damage to the unit struck.
p. 49, TA game manual
These guns are also known in the TA universe as EMG (Energy Machine Guns). However what all that babble amounts to ultimately is a spray weapon that achieves damage through a thousand cuts, rather than high individual damage per shot. Really it just seems to be a funky way of getting a rapid fire pulse laser, which as previously mentioned seems to derive its power from shells carried by the firing unit.

These are different from:
Plasma Cannon: This fires a spherical force field with a highly pressurized 10,000,000 degree plasma tightly contained within it. When the force ball touches the target, the force field dissolves on the side touching the target and the plasma burns through the target's armor. Simple heat and thermal shock may cause the kill. Heavy Armor is moderately vulnerable to high temperatures and multiple hits by plasma cannons can cause its breakdown. Plasma cannons can be direct fire weapons, or their plasma shells may be used
as indirect artillery when firing over hills.
p. 51, TA game manual
There is nothing really said about how the plasma is contained other than a "force field".

Both sides have technobabble weaponry that just seems to work. However in this regard, TA's weapons still seem to ultimately be about plasma, lasers, electricity (there is a lightning gun) and rockets/missiles containing minute amounts of antimatter as a warhead, even if the method in which they go about producing or firing them involves hand waving. The Necron weapons, while some still seem to resort to things like electricity or plasma, have weirder stuff involving other pocket dimensions. How they work again is not explained or at best is still some vague technobabble.

Now gamer also makes reference to the D-gun or "Disintegrator":
Disintegrator: This is an 'ultimate' weapon: no physical matter provides protection from it. It works by suppressing the quantum field strength of the 'gluons' that hold together atomic nuclei. The matter violently tears itself apart, leaving hydrogen, deuterium and a burst of free neutrons. This is the major advantage of Disintegrators: anything is destroyed and Heavy Armor provides virtually no protection.

The weapon has a number of disadvantages: First the matter is disintegrated so no metal salvage is possible. Second, the weapon is short ranged, partly because of the inherent physical limitations of reasonably sized projectors and partly due to atmospheric attenuation of effect. The most severe restriction is the vast amount of energy required to fire it.
. 48, TA game manual
Through some unmentioned technobabble means it seems to be an effective weapon against all matter. The vast amount of energy incidentally in game is 400 energy units which is the output of 20 solar power plants in TA or having the amount of energy stored up beforehand in energy storage facilities. It actually becomes a small expenditure once fusion power plants are up and running.

Now supposing for the moment that it does do all it does in TA (since we give Necrons the ability to do the weird stuff they do) and we allow that it is effective against all physical matter. The biggest problem is that it is a singular weapon. Only the Commander carries it. On a war of any scale, you do not want your commander out there blasting stuff directly on the front lines because commanders are not expendable, whereas front line combat units (both TA and that of the Necrons) are. It is a huge risk given its short range and the potential of being swamped under by sheer numbers. Such concentrated firepower might be very useful in "commando" like raids against relatively unaware or light opposition, plugging breakthroughs, or where terrain allows for a "hit and run" tactic but the usefulness of a D-gun even in TA rapidly diminishes once the conflict scales up to anything approaching a full war.

Teleportation:
The Necrons have functional battlefield teleportation and recovery of casualties with recall teleportation. TA does not have this. TA has Galactic Gates but these really function more along the lines of Stargates, as a means of instant interstellar transport, and not actual tactical battlefield movement:
Allowing small groups of people to step through them onto a new world, they allowed the colonization of the galaxy. However since one was required to pump energy into a Galactic Gate generator for weeks to open one, and then it collapsed as soon as a couple thousand kilos moved through it, it seemed that purely military conquest was impossible on established planets. The development of the Commanders completely changed this.
p. 49, TA game manual
The downside as shown above is the mass limitation before the gate collapses, limiting movement to a few thousand tons each time. Necron ships are shown to have teleportation capabilities allowing for ship boarding action. So in this particular regard, the Necrons have an edge as they are able to use teleportation on the actual battlefield.

"Self-repair":
Necrons are teleported back to base for self repair if they cannot repair in the field and if neither is possible, they self destruct. Some TA units self-repair at a very slow rate. Faster repair requires aid of construction units spraying more nanobots on them.

However, there is one bit here that seems to favor TA. TA keeps making new units. In the new Necron Codex, there is much reference to re-activating old mothballed units and at best building new tomb complexes. There does not seem to be however any reference to actual new built Necrons (not Spyders or Scarab maintenance bots). All the Necrons existence appear to be the same Necrontyr that downloaded their minds into metal bodies. That means that if some self-destruct, it would mean a diminishing of the total Necron population. Now it is not said how often a self-destruct event occurs, but if one side is effectively running off of a fixed number, it means that if a conflict could be prolonged long enough (VERY long given Necron self repair abilities), it is conceivable that the Necrons could start noticing losses. If one combines this with the effect of the D-gun effect producing only hydrogen and deuterium as remains, then a Commander D-gunning all enemy Necron units might increase permanent Necron losses, though this runs into the problem again of relying on a single weapon carried by a single unit when talking about a large scale war.
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by Iracundus »

On the issue of super weapons, gamer is I think referring to this:
High Command seems to believe it does. Said one member of the Arm council:

"When pressed to fight, life will do so. You cannot corner an animal and not expect to see its claws. The Core is a mighty force, but not invincible by any means. We will sacrifice ourselves time and again until the threat is removed. All Arm troops have been ordered to Empyrrean as of this time to defend our brethren. Animals we are, and our claws are sharper than most."

Claws did not seem to prove strong enough in the Raja sector, where Core continued its assault, decimating world after world, purging them of all forms of Clone. The war for that sector ended with the destruction of the Arm homeworld of Ralova, where genetic experiments dedicated to the process of "building the better clone" were halted by a single blast from the Core's Orbital Weapon, located at the other end of the sector. The shockwave from the blast disrupted communications signals across the galaxy, slowing the Core's assault on Empyrrean. But not for long.
http://web.archive.org/web/199911101701 ... g_4-5.html
However, the problem here is that this is not included in the scenario which involves a lone Arm commander walking through a gate into the 40K universe. The weapon described above is a Core stationary Death Star like weapon system in a single sector. It never made another appearance in another sector which if it were mobile we might reasonably expect given how Arm and Core are supposedly locked in total war. The problem is we never know any further about the capabilities of such a weapon system, its fire rates, running costs, or anything else. Its purpose in that briefing report was just to announce the end of the war in that sector, ending in a Core victory. The weapon system was charging for the duration of the online campaign in that sector and only fired when the sector was won.

I do not get the impression that this weapon is a mass produced weapon. The impression given is that of a singular white elephant type weapon that perhaps useful in one very niche situation, is not flexible enough for general purpose warfare. One could think of historical examples such as the German Gustav and Dora railway guns of WWII. Very large and powerful guns that played a significant role in only 1 battle, and which required enormous amounts of support in manpower and time to fire each time. I don't think in such a vs scenario the unique super weapons of either side should be invoked, such as the Necron Celestial Orrery, because they are unique enough that there is hardly any data with which to make any real comparisons and the stuff they do might as well be handwaved as magic.
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by evilsoup »

I actually have this game on my netbook, so here's a few small screengrabs.

Arm Commander, Peewee, and Kbot lab with a car and trees (not sure how to compare the scales of these things, but the peewee is certainly bigger; the car is that little yellow thing):
Image
Also, here is the Commander and Peewee next to the wreck of a lorry of some kind:
Image

Not entirely sure how to scale stuff from these kind of screenshots. I can confirm those are the standard TA trees that are found on gameplay maps.

Something occurs to me... The walking bomb (below) is the smallest unit in the game. The ARM units are all supposed to have a cloned person inside them, controlling the robot - does that give a useful minimum size? I guess they could use disembodied brains or something. But anyways, the walking bomb unit is about the same size as that car.
Image

Also, here's some official in-game info about the ARM Commander and Peewee:
ImageImage
Obviously the 'Cost' section is useless, using in-game units, but the max velocity might be useful for something. I'm sure there are videos on youtube. And the portraits might help with scaling.
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by NecronLord »

Iracundus wrote:However, there is one bit here that seems to favor TA. TA keeps making new units. In the new Necron Codex, there is much reference to re-activating old mothballed units and at best building new tomb complexes. There does not seem to be however any reference to actual new built Necrons (not Spyders or Scarab maintenance bots). All the Necrons existence appear to be the same Necrontyr that downloaded their minds into metal bodies. That means that if some self-destruct, it would mean a diminishing of the total Necron population.
Hammer and Anvil obligingly mentions that a necron, even if its body is completely destroyed, will have its mind relayed to a tomb world even thousands of light years away in the galactic network, where a new body can be built. The only way they die is in cryptek's duels, as far as we know.
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by Iracundus »

NecronLord wrote:
Iracundus wrote:However, there is one bit here that seems to favor TA. TA keeps making new units. In the new Necron Codex, there is much reference to re-activating old mothballed units and at best building new tomb complexes. There does not seem to be however any reference to actual new built Necrons (not Spyders or Scarab maintenance bots). All the Necrons existence appear to be the same Necrontyr that downloaded their minds into metal bodies. That means that if some self-destruct, it would mean a diminishing of the total Necron population.
Hammer and Anvil obligingly mentions that a necron, even if its body is completely destroyed, will have its mind relayed to a tomb world even thousands of light years away in the galactic network, where a new body can be built. The only way they die is in cryptek's duels, as far as we know.
Can you provide a direct quote and page citation for this please?

One thing to consider is the reliability of such a system. We know Necron systems are not totally infallible given that they suffer attrition over their long sleep and as far as we know, these are permanent deaths for the Necrons. The actual number of minds of the Necrons appears to be only going down over time, as the Necrons don't appear to reproduce so the number of minds is based on the number of old Necrontyr minus attrition over the eons. There are no new Necron baby minds. Even if such a failure is rare, if there are enough casualties over time, eventually there will start to be permanent deaths cropping up. It is like the quote "Remember, in China when you are one in a million -- there are 1,300 other people just like you."
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by Xess »

Thanks to evilsoup I did some scaling.
Image

The car has a wheelbase of 16 pixels, the Peewee is 22 pixels tall, the Commander is 29 pixels tall the pine tree is 60 pixels tall and the deciduous tree is 65 pixels tall and I figure a 3 pixel margin of error. The wheel base of a mid-size car according to the Wikipedia article is between 2.667 and 2.794 meters so I went with 3 meters for the TA car. That gives a meters per pixel ratio of 0.1875 m/px, which is too many sig figs so I went with 0.2 m/px. Using only one sig fig (with the 3 pixel/ 0.6 meter error that gives the following:

Peewee: 4 +/- 0.6 meters tall ( 13 +/- 2 feet)
Commander: 6 +/- 0.6 meters tall (20 +/- 2 feet)

For the trees I figures the error and sig figs aren't important so we have the pine tree being 12 meters (40 feet) tall and the deciduous tree being 13 meters (43 feet) tall.

That's a pretty big difference from what gamer was claiming.

PS I know the Imperial conversions don't use the right number of sig figs.
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by Imperial528 »

Just a question, where is the car there? All I can see is a k-bot, the commander, and a k-bot lab. Is it that weird thing between the k-bot and the commander?
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by Xess »

Imperial528 wrote:Just a question, where is the car there? All I can see is a k-bot, the commander, and a k-bot lab. Is it that weird thing between the k-bot and the commander?
Yeah.
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by evilsoup »

Yeah, that weird yellow thing (complete with an intact windshield so I guess the battle mst have been fairly recent) is one of the larger car wrecks that are strewn around the game's 'urban' maps.
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by Purple »

Is it just me or does that image have the commander, car and tree all at different angles?
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by Xess »

Xess wrote:Peewee: 4 +/- 0.6 meters tall ( 13 +/- 2 feet)
Commander: 6 +/- 0.6 meters tall (20 +/- 2 feet)
I just realized I did my sig figs wrong, the error should really be +/- 1 meter so that the range height range answer always only has one sig fig in it. So Peewee 3-5 meters (10 - 16 feet) tall and Commander 5-7 meters (17 to 23 feet) tall.

EDIT: The 3-5 meter range is also the same range you'd find the Space Marine Dreadnaught in by most sources I've seen. I haven't done any scaling on it myself though so don't quote me on it.
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by Vashon »

Can someone please explain to me how the potential industrial capacity of TA does not make this a pure spite thread? The actual strength of individual units is of the most minute relevance when you have the capacity to turn them all into relativistic doom missiles and bypass the fleets entirely. All TA needs confirmed are space going ships a similar rates of exponential build. Spite fucking thread.
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by Xess »

Vashon wrote:Can someone please explain to me how the potential industrial capacity of TA does not make this a pure spite thread? The actual strength of individual units is of the most minute relevance when you have the capacity to turn them all into relativistic doom missiles and bypass the fleets entirely. All TA needs confirmed are space going ships a similar rates of exponential build. Spite fucking thread.
Do you have any evidence that a single commander, what we actually have in this scenario, can actually build relativistic doom missiles and star ships at all? Never mind at the rate he can build tanks.
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by Lord Revan »

Vashon wrote:Can someone please explain to me how the potential industrial capacity of TA does not make this a pure spite thread? The actual strength of individual units is of the most minute relevance when you have the capacity to turn them all into relativistic doom missiles and bypass the fleets entirely. All TA needs confirmed are space going ships a similar rates of exponential build. Spite fucking thread.
I got 2 words for you:PROVE IT!

Do I really need to explain it individually every fucking moron wanker comes to this thread.

I hate break it to you, but "because I say so" doesn't make it so, pretty much every fucking responce to gamer and that other guy (assuming it is even another guy to begin with) boils down to those 2 words, prove it.

it's not spite to ask for evidence that you beat some other verse, lets get this straight I got nothing against TAverse, but I do have a lot against dishonest or just plain old poor arguments brought for to define said verse.

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I come back to see if there was finally some good arguments here but it seems it's just same old crap with a new name, which makes me wonder if someone is trying inflate his side by making more then 1 account, but if that's true it's not really my problem.
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by gamer »

Some more things I'll like to point out, Vashon does have a point the strength of TA's units don't really matter much on the grand scale of things their industrial production capabilities are beyond most universes in scifi and far beyond anything seen in Warhammer 40k they can go from a single military unit on a planet with life to massive armies blasting each other apart on a barren moon like world in a week or so of fighting. Also when fighting the Necrons, the Necrons are likely going to have difficulty in just fighting construction units their ability to reclaim massive amounts of matter in very short periods of time is going to cause serious problems since they won't be able to recall back their destroyed units for repair, and when it comes to firepower just to fight peewees they are going to need to bring out something much heavier than just their warriors.

Which reminds me do you guys think SupCom is more powerful than TA?
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by Iracundus »

gamer wrote:Some more things I'll like to point out, Vashon does have a point the strength of TA's units don't really matter much on the grand scale of things their industrial production capabilities are beyond most universes in scifi and far beyond anything seen in Warhammer 40k they can go from a single military unit on a planet with life to massive armies blasting each other apart on a barren moon like world in a week or so of fighting. Also when fighting the Necrons, the Necrons are likely going to have difficulty in just fighting construction units their ability to reclaim massive amounts of matter in very short periods of time is going to cause serious problems since they won't be able to recall back their destroyed units for repair, and when it comes to firepower just to fight peewees they are going to need to bring out something much heavier than just their warriors.
Where is the quote about this reduction of a life bearing world to barren moonscape in weeks? This sounds hyperbolic.

I don't see why you keep invoking the nanolathe reclaiming abilities as some game winning technology. In TA the only units liable to be reclaimed directly were unarmed metal extractors or lone quick fragile scout units running across the Commander (since the Commander had the fastest build speed and reclaim speed was proportional to build speed). The amount of damage per time was pathetic otherwise, range was short, and it was really only a stop gap measure for otherwise unarmed construction units. Since it inflicted damage in a slow steady stream, it is also possible such simply triggers a "destroyed" event for Necrons, triggering a recall back to the tomb complex.

The Necrons don't lie around in wrecked hulks and then get recalled. The recall or self destruction appears to occur immediately after the fatal blow or shot. There is nothing for TA to reclaim. Now granted, though the Gauss flayers flay off layers of matter, the fact they still cause destroyed hulks against other 40K races means TA forces are likely to be able to reclaim some of their own destroyed units to recycle. However the only TA weapon I see regularly capable of guaranteeing little remains to recall would be the D-gun and as I discussed previously, a single gun in a planetary war zone is not a game changing thing.

There are simply too many unknowns when it comes to Necron industrial or repair capabilities. We don't know how big the tomb complexes are or how many still inactive reserves are present, especially given the tombs have the weird spatial effect of holding more on the inside than they appear physically able to on the outside. We don't know how effective or quick tomb complex repair facilities are. The existence of decrepit and dilapidated Necrons in the old Necron Codex, and the existence of not fully functional tombs in the new Necron Codex suggest they are not instantaneously fast or infinitely capable of repairing all damage. However without knowing such turnaround times, it would be difficult to compare vs. TA's own repair or recycling times.

As for your claim they need more than warriors against TA kbots, TA Peewee kbots were estimated by another poster above as about 14 feet in height. That's about 2 Space Marines on top of each other. That isn't too huge really. It is about battlesuit or dreadnought size, and Necrons have Gauss flayers which still have chances of glancing through armor. Necron warriors would still have a chance against such units.
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by gamer »

Iracundus wrote:
gamer wrote:Some more things I'll like to point out, Vashon does have a point the strength of TA's units don't really matter much on the grand scale of things their industrial production capabilities are beyond most universes in scifi and far beyond anything seen in Warhammer 40k they can go from a single military unit on a planet with life to massive armies blasting each other apart on a barren moon like world in a week or so of fighting. Also when fighting the Necrons, the Necrons are likely going to have difficulty in just fighting construction units their ability to reclaim massive amounts of matter in very short periods of time is going to cause serious problems since they won't be able to recall back their destroyed units for repair, and when it comes to firepower just to fight peewees they are going to need to bring out something much heavier than just their warriors.
Where is the quote about this reduction of a life bearing world to barren moonscape in weeks? This sounds hyperbolic.

I don't see why you keep invoking the nanolathe reclaiming abilities as some game winning technology. In TA the only units liable to be reclaimed directly were unarmed metal extractors or lone quick fragile scout units running across the Commander (since the Commander had the fastest build speed and reclaim speed was proportional to build speed). The amount of damage per time was pathetic otherwise, range was short, and it was really only a stop gap measure for otherwise unarmed construction units. Since it inflicted damage in a slow steady stream, it is also possible such simply triggers a "destroyed" event for Necrons, triggering a recall back to the tomb complex.

The Necrons don't lie around in wrecked hulks and then get recalled. The recall or self destruction appears to occur immediately after the fatal blow or shot. There is nothing for TA to reclaim. Now granted, though the Gauss flayers flay off layers of matter, the fact they still cause destroyed hulks against other 40K races means TA forces are likely to be able to reclaim some of their own destroyed units to recycle.

There are simply too many unknowns when it comes to Necron industrial or repair capabilities. We don't know how big the tomb complexes are or how many still inactive reserves are present, especially given the tombs have the weird spatial effect of holding more on the inside than they appear physically able to on the outside. We don't know how effective or quick tomb complex repair facilities are. The existence of decrepit and dilapidated Necrons in the old Necron Codex, and the existence of not fully functional tombs in the new Necron Codex suggest they are not instantaneously fast or infinitely capable of repairing all damage. However without knowing such turnaround times, it would be difficult to compare vs. TA's own repair or recycling times.

As for your claim they need more than warriors against TA kbots, TA Peewee kbots were estimated by another poster above as about 14 feet in height. That's about 2 Space Marines on top of each other. That isn't too huge really. It is about battlesuit or dreadnought size, and Necrons have Gauss flayers which still have chances of glancing through armor. Necron warriors would still have a chance against such units.
As far as we know Necrons have zero industrial production capability all their units are remnants from the old Necrontyr race, the only new units are scarabs, tomb spyders, and pariahs I think.

The thing about reducing a planet to bedrock in a couple of weeks of fighting is from the Galactic War Reports, and considering they consumed nearly all the resources of the galaxy in just 4000 years (think about that for a moment) that actually makes sense.

The reason I mentioned construction units is because their reclaimation ability seems to function similarily to necron gauss weaponry just more advanced as for the damage they do look at how fast they can reclaim things in the environment like massive boulders and trees, TA's unit armor is likely designed to be more resistant to those attacks, but necron warriors are going to be ripped apart too fast for any regeneration to occur.

As for firepower the fact that Peewees need rapid-firing hyperfocused weapons that can somehow focus all of its power in a micrometre sized area (a 4MW laser focused like that could pierce 14m of solid tungsten in 1 millisecond leaving a 9mm wide hole, and that's probably not counting the explosion of plasma) just to have a chance at piercing AK armor (a similar tier 1 unit for the CORE) suggest they can take extreme levels of damage, and dish out alot of firepower. To fight Peewees they are going to need at least Heavy Destroyers, and even a Heavy Destroyer's weapons aren't all that impressive sure it can pierce through a Land Raider but considering that Imperial Armor states the "mighty" Land Raider has the equivalent of 300mm of conventional steel armor the M1A2 Abrams should also be able to pierce completely through a Land Raider as well, since we have cases of 120mm APFSDS piercing completely through T-72s.
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by Stark »

Oh man I did miss the buzzwords. I thought you were done with this thread? Did you find all the 'micrometers' piling up making the place untidy? :v

I missed the 'ignore game mechanics unless it suits me' thing too. I'm glad your pals have given you 'devastating' arguments like laughably lowballing the land raider while you ludicrously wank out peewees. At least your backup drone is actually discussing things. :lol:
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by gamer »

Stark wrote:Oh man I did miss the buzzwords. I thought you were done with this thread? Did you find all the 'micrometers' piling up making the place untidy? :v

I missed the 'ignore game mechanics unless it suits me' thing too. I'm glad your pals have given you 'devastating' arguments like laughably lowballing the land raider while you ludicrously wank out peewees. At least your backup drone is actually discussing things. :lol:
Land Raider
2 layers of ceramite, 1 titanium/plasteel layer, 1 adamantium layer and 1 thermoplas layer, equivalent to 365mm conventional steel armour
Imperial Armor volume II even goes lower at 300mm. Not very impressive, not very impressive at all.

How am I wanking out peewees? I'm just using the manual, and going by the manual if we assume a power level of just 4 MJ (it can go far higher that's actually being conservative) you get some pretty good armor penetration abilities.

And what about game mechanics again?

As for my "pals" where are they and what are you talking about?
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by Xess »

gamer wrote:Land Raider
2 layers of ceramite, 1 titanium/plasteel layer, 1 adamantium layer and 1 thermoplas layer, equivalent to 365mm conventional steel armour
Imperial Armor volume II even goes lower at 300mm. Not very impressive, not very impressive at all.
You do realize that's talking about conventional 40k steel, not conventional modern day steel right and thus that number is meaningless? Also you know that Land Raiders have done some really crazy shit like drive across the bottom of oceans to attack Tau cities (Space Wolves codex) and that Forge World books are known for stupid stuff in them that doesn't fit with the rest of 40k. Hell using your method of whatever the hell I feel like statements, Land Raiders and Necron Monoliths are equally tough since they both have all-round armor 14 and Monoliths are extremely hard to destroy so Land Raiders must be too! :lol:
gamer wrote:As for firepower the fact that Peewees need rapid-firing hyperfocused weapons that can somehow focus all of its power in a micrometre sized area (a 4MW laser focused like that could pierce 14m of solid tungsten in 1 millisecond leaving a 9mm wide hole, and that's probably not counting the explosion of plasma) just to have a chance at piercing AK armor (a similar tier 1 unit for the CORE) suggest they can take extreme levels of damage, and dish out alot of firepower.
...
How am I wanking out peewees? I'm just using the manual, and going by the manual if we assume a power level of just 4 MJ (it can go far higher that's actually being conservative) you get some pretty good armor penetration abilities.
I see you're still ignoring the point about absurdly large aspect ratios being highly unlikely, that means you shouldn't be able to get anywhere near 13 meters of penetration. Highest I can get without going over is 1 meter of tungsten (why tungsten by the way?), with a 3.38cm hole with a 74 microsecond single pulse (why a single pulse?). Considering that hole is 33,800 times wider than the spot diameter you keep using because of techno-babble that's damn impressive. Oh and by the way, against "armor steel" that hole is only 27.2 cm deep! :lol: I expect you'll keep ignoring the aspect ratio thing however.

So you're wanking Peewees by assuming they can kill any 40k tank without proving it. By just picking numbers arbitrarily and not actually trying to find anything rationally. A 4 MJ Peewee gun is no less arbitrary than a multi-kiloton Peewee gun it's just less idiotic. You wank them by assuming that they'll be very hard for Necrons to destroy without proving it. In short you just wank by stating what you want to be true and then ignoring any requests that you show evidence for your assertions.
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by gamer »

Xess wrote:
gamer wrote:Land Raider
2 layers of ceramite, 1 titanium/plasteel layer, 1 adamantium layer and 1 thermoplas layer, equivalent to 365mm conventional steel armour
Imperial Armor volume II even goes lower at 300mm. Not very impressive, not very impressive at all.
You do realize that's talking about conventional 40k steel, not conventional modern day steel right and thus that number is meaningless? Also you know that Land Raiders have done some really crazy shit like drive across the bottom of oceans to attack Tau cities (Space Wolves codex) and that Forge World books are known for stupid stuff in them that doesn't fit with the rest of 40k. Hell using your method of whatever the hell I feel like statements, Land Raiders and Necron Monoliths are equally tough since they both have all-round armor 14 and Monoliths are extremely hard to destroy so Land Raiders must be too! :lol:
gamer wrote:As for firepower the fact that Peewees need rapid-firing hyperfocused weapons that can somehow focus all of its power in a micrometre sized area (a 4MW laser focused like that could pierce 14m of solid tungsten in 1 millisecond leaving a 9mm wide hole, and that's probably not counting the explosion of plasma) just to have a chance at piercing AK armor (a similar tier 1 unit for the CORE) suggest they can take extreme levels of damage, and dish out alot of firepower.
...
How am I wanking out peewees? I'm just using the manual, and going by the manual if we assume a power level of just 4 MJ (it can go far higher that's actually being conservative) you get some pretty good armor penetration abilities.
I see you're still ignoring the point about absurdly large aspect ratios being highly unlikely, that means you shouldn't be able to get anywhere near 13 meters of penetration. Highest I can get without going over is 1 meter of tungsten (why tungsten by the way?), with a 3.38cm hole with a 74 microsecond single pulse (why a single pulse?). Considering that hole is 33,800 times wider than the spot diameter you keep using because of techno-babble that's damn impressive. Oh and by the way, against "armor steel" that hole is only 27.2 cm deep! :lol: I expect you'll keep ignoring the aspect ratio thing however.

So you're wanking Peewees by assuming they can kill any 40k tank without proving it. By just picking numbers arbitrarily and not actually trying to find anything rationally. A 4 MJ Peewee gun is no less arbitrary than a multi-kiloton Peewee gun it's just less idiotic. You wank them by assuming that they'll be very hard for Necrons to destroy without proving it. In short you just wank by stating what you want to be true and then ignoring any requests that you show evidence for your assertions.
40k armored steel is called plasteel, that quote doesn't mention plasteel it just says conventional steel armor, besides it also gives the amount of 40k armor it has on it which is 91-95mm of that list of stuff I gave and that is the equivalent of 300mm of steel. Steel is steel, maybe 40k weapons really are just really weak?

You want evidence okay, evidence in the form of the galactic war reports suggests TA can turn an earth-like planet into something resembling the moon in a couple of weeks starting with just one unit (that's some impressive industrial production ability also it actually makes sense considering in 4000 years they can deplete a galaxy of its resources), evidence also suggests gigatons of energy can be released with just 200 mid-range units not even getting into Krogoths and such. Evidence in the form of game mechanics and energy conversion calcs also put out similar yields. Evidence from the manual says they have the ability to focus the energy of their weapons into micrometre sized areas (this could explain the lack of an entire game consisting of just a white screen and dust storms since somehow the energy is focused), throw around anti-matter like candy, use exotic matter armor, and have matter eating construction units that could simply destroy Necron Warriors with ease with its reclaimation beam. Even if we go with the weakest calcs possible for their units so that they can only set trees on fire and windmills produce all the energy they need the Necrons still have to deal with an enemy that has production capabilites so potent even Tyranids won't be able to keep up. Tell me you think basic warriors are a match for a Peewee? Aren't spacemarines quite capable of taking out Necron Warriors on their own? If spacemarines can take on Necron Warriors why can't a Peewee? Are the weapons on a Peewee weaker than Space Marine weapons?

Also for your calc didn't you just say 74 microsecond pulse? I used 1 millisecond at 4 MJ focused at 1 micrometre hitting tungsten according to the calc if you kept hitting the same area for a second you can drill through more than 13km of solid tungsten. 4 MJ is an extremely conservative number and also not alot of power with the same power but focused to 20mm you are only going to pierce 6 mm of armored steel which is pathetic.

While not exactly related do you think SupCom steam rolls TA?
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Oh christ, this argument.

You do realize 'steel' is an alloy, and there are many different kinds of steel right? IIRC they can be variable in quality depending on the materials utilized in them and what they are being used for. You would have to define what conventional steel is to use that as a comparison, and the comparison is very open ended. I know the usual argument when trotting out IA2 or the 'conventional steel' comparison is that 'conventional steel = RHA' but that's pure supposition because that's what we used in 'tank armor' steel IRL.

Fun example: you can use 40K adamantium to make a steel alloy. As per Nocturne

372
"All crew, as we are flung headlong into the yawning darkness, heed my words. That sound you hear, the chiming of metal upon metal, the shriek of adamantium steel and the lofty thunder beyond our walls is the anvil."
And this isn't even factoring in the magically enchanting/mutational properties of the warp and any impact that might have on materials. Blood Gorgons has 'warp iron' which is as dense as uranium and can be used as a fuel source in one of the many magical kinds of 40K reactor.

If you dig more there are LOTS of different kinds of steel than just plasteel (which according to the 5th edition Space Wolves codex, can be forged. imagine that.) There's ceramsteel, polysteel, monosteel, durasteel, flexsteel, Photomalleable steel, plexsteel - and those are just the examples I'd found.

Edit: BtW if we do treat 'conventional' steel as RL armour steel one has to explain how the 4 MW lascannon on a Demolisher (from Inferno Magazine #3) would be able to penetrate Land Raider armour. Or how Thunderhawks and Titans can also be made from the same quality of material for that matter. The Thunderhawk example is particularily bad, since it's actually LESS well armored than a Land Raider, so any lascannon-packing vehicle or trooper could effortleslly gun down a Thunderhawk in one shot.

And I'm not even going to get into plasma or melta weapons and 'conventional steel'....
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by Xess »

gamer wrote:40k armored steel is called plasteel, that quote doesn't mention plasteel it just says conventional steel armor, besides it also gives the amount of 40k armor it has on it which is 91-95mm of that list of stuff I gave and that is the equivalent of 300mm of steel. Steel is steel, maybe 40k weapons really are just really weak?
You're an idiot, unless we know what type of steel it is exactly we don't actually know how strong it is.
You want evidence okay, evidence in the form of the galactic war reports suggests TA can turn an earth-like planet into something resembling the moon in a couple of weeks starting with just one unit (that's some impressive industrial production ability also it actually makes sense considering in 4000 years they can deplete a galaxy of its resources), evidence also suggests gigatons of energy can be released with just 200 mid-range units not even getting into Krogoths and such. Evidence in the form of game mechanics and energy conversion calcs also put out similar yields. Evidence from the manual says they have the ability to focus the energy of their weapons into micrometre sized areas (this could explain the lack of an entire game consisting of just a white screen and dust storms since somehow the energy is focused), throw around anti-matter like candy, use exotic matter armor, and have matter eating construction units that could simply destroy Necron Warriors with ease with its reclaimation beam. Even if we go with the weakest calcs possible for their units so that they can only set trees on fire and windmills produce all the energy they need the Necrons still have to deal with an enemy that has production capabilites so potent even Tyranids won't be able to keep up. Tell me you think basic warriors are a match for a Peewee? Aren't spacemarines quite capable of taking out Necron Warriors on their own? If spacemarines can take on Necron Warriors why can't a Peewee? Are the weapons on a Peewee weaker than Space Marine weapons?


All of that has been discussed in the thread already, simply repeating yourself won't make your points any better. Let me sum it up if I can.
-Gigatons are completely non-consistent with what we've seen in the game energy wise.
-We turned France into something resembling the surface of the moon during WW1 and that didn't require nukes just lots of conventional artillery and since lots of tanks and shit TA can do that's easy to believe.
-Your energy to mass bullshit has been dealt with numerous times with the simple explanation of "not actually energy to mass". Focusing nuclear yields won't hide the mushroom cloud, hell focusing a 4MJ shot won't hide the boom when all that material you just vapourized expands explosively into the air. Of course less material means less boom.
-Anti-matter doesn't mean SUPER-POWERFUL.
-Exotic matter armor is that acts like shields, which is cool, but until you actually show its properties is just techno-babble.
-You assume a reclamation beam can kill Necron warriors without showing it. Of course the Necron would just get a new body built in a Tomb Complex eventually, oh yeah they do that it's in the new codex.
-Has anyone ever said TA can't build shit really fast and that it isn't a big advantage?
-I have no idea if a Necron warrior can destroy a Peewee as you have yet to actually quantify the capabilities of a Peewee.
-From what I've read in 40k Space Marines can have a hard time killing Necrons but yeah they can do it.
-I have no idea if the weapons of a Peewee are weaker than the weapons of a Space Marine since you have yet to actually quantify the capabilities of a Peewee. It also depends on what weapon the Space Marine has, big difference between a Bolter and a Multi-melta.
Also for your calc didn't you just say 74 microsecond pulse? I used 1 millisecond at 4 MJ focused at 1 micrometre hitting tungsten according to the calc if you kept hitting the same area for a second you can drill through more than 13km of solid tungsten. 4 MJ is an extremely conservative number and also not alot of power with the same power but focused to 20mm you are only going to pierce 6 mm of armored steel which is pathetic.
Still ignoring the aspect ratio problem I see, exactly as I thought you would. Oh and I used a micrometer spot diameter to be consistent with your shit so I have no idea where you got a 20mm spot diameter from.
While not exactly related do you think SupCom steam rolls TA?
I think this question is totally fucking irrelevant since we're not talking about Supreme Commander. You're probably asking this to try to and set up some "AHA, I have you now!" moment. Whatever man, it's not like your actual "points" and "evidence" for TA actually amount to anything. :lol:
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by Simon_Jester »

gamer wrote:Also for your calc didn't you just say 74 microsecond pulse? I used 1 millisecond at 4 MJ focused at 1 micrometre hitting tungsten according to the calc if you kept hitting the same area for a second you can drill through more than 13km of solid tungsten. 4 MJ is an extremely conservative number and also not alot of power with the same power but focused to 20mm you are only going to pierce 6 mm of armored steel which is pathetic.
...Your calculations are totally wrong, and anyone who's ever actually worked with drilling, cutting, lasers, or understands how atoms work will be able to spot the problem.

To spell it out, when you drill a very narrow hole, the vaporized material has to go somewhere. Lasers aren't magic disintegrator rays. The vapor will block the path of the beam and scatter the laser light in all directions, so you end up forming a crater instead of a deep hole. A "calculation" in which you just arbitrarily pick an extremely narrow beam width and declare that you could vaporize a very long cylinder of material of such a narrow width is so meaningless it makes your argument weaker, not stronger.

I'm honestly curious, why are you even still arguing this? Do you expect to convince anyone?
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Re: Somewhere in 40k an ARM commander builds a metal extract

Post by Stark »

Someone told him TA was uber by being generous with sources, consistency and shit and he's probably stunned that people don't simply agree with his statements. He would have expected 'lol single commander steamrolls 40k's strongest race TA FOR TEH WINZ' responses. Did you love the way he's just confused we don't understand that MICROMETER PLASMA isn't an I-win silver bullet? BUT THE MICROMETERS!

Sadly, heaps of people here have seen both TA wankers *and* 40k deflaters before.
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