Revelation Space vs Mass Effect

[18-Till-I-Die]

Yo dawg I heard the shitty ending of a sci-fi epic has sparked a discussion about the validity of fan interaction with game publishers, so I put this thread in here to continue stoking the flames of internet battle

Lol, anyway, I love Revelation Space and I love Mass Effect, so a thought struck me: which one actually has the upper-hand in terms of combat capability.

Here's the scenario:

Yellowstone, in the current, post-nanoplague form, the Nostalgia for Infinity and Zodical Light along with a large contengent of Conjoiner ships and all the weapons, ships and resources these three factions possess (that means giant Demarchist 1000km railguns, antimatter weapons, all their ships, the Cache weapons) is transported into a remote part of the Mass Effect galaxy.

A primary Mass Relay is located there, and thanks to Conjoiner help they figure out how to use the relays fairly quickly. The Citadel council discovers all of this and due to a series of mishaps, including the Nostalgia Ultras being assholes as was established in canon , the Citadel sends in its military forces to try and pacify this strange transhuman offshoot of mankind thats causing such a hallabaloo.

The Demarchists and Conjoiners combined have a fleet of, say, 100 ships on a war footing including their giant Fuck You Guns, but only the Conjoiners have access to antimatter in militarily useful quantities. The two Ultra groups have access to all their weapons, including the Cache weapons, and of course their lighthuggers.

The Citadel fleet has that huge Asari dreadnaught (whose name escapes me) as well as a hundred or so ships, mostly cruisers, mostly Turian, with a couple of Human carriers and the Normandy. Biotics are available, the Normandy's stealth and magnetohydrodynamic weapon are also active here.

The Revelation Space folks decide to keep close to Yellowstone and the Rust Belt, so the Citadel guys can come through the relay unmolested (at first, they can reinforce it later).

Who wins? Could the RevSpace people hold out, or even expand further? Keep in mind they now know how to use the relay network, so FTL is not a problem even though they lack the slow FTL of the Mass Effect ships. If they need to reach the Citadel directly, they could, via the relays. But also recall, the Demarchists/Conjoiners/Ultras haven't explored anything past their own system...yet.


TWO CAVEATS:
1--it is assumed that the Ultras, Demarchists and Conjoiners just decide to put aside their characteristically Revelation Space-ish bullshit and bickering and work together. Let's maybe hypthosize they just figured this was the best way to to it--in reality it's because, let's face it, these people are all sociopaths. Don't want Volyova selling out everyone to the Citadel and then blowing up both sides with an antimatter cannon from the Cache or something...because she totally would, and that wouldn't be fun.

2--the Reapers aren't showing up, this is some parallel Mass Effect where the Reapers just aren't around right now and neither are the Inhibitors. Because, again, it wouldn't be fun for them to just show up and kill everyone--and you know they totally would.

[Whiskey144]

RevSpace dudes win. Keep in mind that this isn't just "lolz Cache Weapons vaporize Council peeps", but rather due to technological, tactical, and strategic differences. Some notes, in support of my position as well as general topical discussion [it's mixed together, alas]:

- The Conjoiners and Demarchists were at war for several centuries. Certainly, the situation you present does stipulate that they more-or-less drop it, but it illustrates a different point- the ability to sustain hyper-lethal warfare for long durations on the resources of a single solar system. Said resources are surprisingly *big* [as a certain poster on this board loves to point out], too.

- RevSpace dudes have useful, long-range anti-ship DEW. While it is similar considered mostly "point defence" weaponry, we're still talking gamma-ray lasers that purportedly (because it was apparently a ruse) can put 200 kilometer deep holes in planets {ref: Resurgam in Revelation Space suffered a faux-orbital strike from said ordnance}.

- Many Conjoiner starships are likely to be retrofitted with cryo-arithmetic engines, which is more-or-less the Normandy's stealth system only better in every possible way [except for the catastrophic failure mode].

- Also, given that you don't give a specific timeframe, it's possible that some of the Conjoiner warships have hypometric weapons. Which are more-or-less undetectable strikes at distances of light hours or more.

- Despite the fact that the majority of Cache weapons are apparently disposable in operation, few of these are known to have useful anti-ship applications. It is known that they have stupidly long range, and one of the few that was reusable apparently had a range measured in AUs.

- Doctrinally, the ME fleets will want to close to a distance of around 10,000 kilometers or less- which is apparently the maximum effective ranges of their dreadnought guns, with cruiser/frigate guns have shorter range. This presents a problem- not only is it possible that the Conjoiners would rapidly disseminate cryo-arithmetic engines, thus giving Normandy-style stealth capability but without time limitations, but the clutter of the Rust Belt would provide major targeting issues- especially at range. RevSpace side is less impacted, due to the fact that they probably have a good idea of how the Rust Belt shifts, its astrographical layout, etc etc.

- Incidentally, it could be counter-productive for the RevSpace side to stick close to the Rust Belt and Yellowstone- by dispersing through the system, they allow the enemy to take Yellowstone/Rust Belt orbital space- and thus gain a massive shooting gallery at the Council fleet, allowing RevSpace forces to take advantage of their massive weapons range.

- I'm skeptical of the usefulness of any ground-based equipment; more than any other potential conflict between these two groups, this will be a war fought in, and decided in, space. That said, boarding actions are going to be important for the possible intel gains- and, for the Council fleet, the potentially enormous boon of a captured lighthugger. There is the slight caveat that they'll have no idea how to work said lighthugger, which will likely see it quickly lost- either destroyed or recaptured- but it could be a massive propaganda victory for them. Unfortunately, the 'suits' that are also shown in the first RevSpace novel would appear to outclass any ground/air assets the Council can bring up; they [the suits] have anti-matter guns, for example. And plasma weapons, and lasers. Combined with the fact that each suit is fully SSTO capable, and even super/hypersonic capable, and, well, it's not pretty for the Council.

This being said, outside of the RevSpace system, Council forces have the strategic advantage- both in initiative and mobility, thanks to the eezo FTL drives. But if the RevSpace guys just roll relay-to-relay, then, while it may take some time, in all likelihood they'll be able to make their way to the Citadel. And then you have a very fine use for the Cache Weapons.

Ultimately, I'd predict RevSpace holding their system- the hyperlethality of their weapons, compared to the defenses of the Council fleets, in combination with the potential of widespread cryo-arithmetic engine usage, would make a Council assault on Yellowstone an extremely costly proposition. I'd also say that's it's a definite possibility that they'd send a lighthugger to destroy the Citadel through the use of the Cache weapons.

Side notes- RevSpace>Reapers. While Reaper weapons would probably torch the lighthuggers, they'd have to first, gain range (remember, multi-AU battles are the norm in RevSpace), and then actually find the target (CAEs). Keep in mind also that the lighthuggers have weapons that can bypass Reaper defenses (hypometric weapons), or simply overpower it (Cache weapons). Also remember that RevSpace has the potential to get at least half a million people of Yellowstone with the combined storage of Nostalgia for Infinity and Zodiacal Light. It's also likely that at least some of those other ships will be interstellar-capable, perhaps even lighthuggers as well. Figure roughly 5 million people could be taken offworld.

Also note that, IMO, Reapers wouldn't be able to adapt the RevSpace tech- it's just too different. Similarly, and eezo FTL drive probably wouldn't be added to a lighthugger- though that's also because I'd guess that they'd be hesitant to try it when they have no idea how hypometric weapons, inertia suppressors, and/or cryo-arithmetic engines would interact with it.

Final note- the Inhibitors would indeed kill everyone. Including the Reapers.

[Torchship]

What period of of the setting are we considering here? The two main possibilities that I can see are just before the Zodiacal Light departs from Yellowstone, and just after the Light arrives at Ararat, but these two time periods have wildly different forces available.

In the former case, the Demarchists still have some remnants of their fleet and ground forces left (though no lighthuggers) and all of the Cache weapons are still intact. On the downside, none of the technology developed in Absolution Gap is available, and the 12 lighthuggers that form the bulk of the Conjoiner war/evacuation fleet are still under construction (and are unlikely to finish in the timeframe of the war).

In the latter case, Aura's super-advanced technology is available on three ships (the Light and the two Conjoiner ships), and the Conjoiners have their war/evacuation fleet available (minus the Nightshade), though I doubt many much extra weapons or armour will be manufactured in the likely time frame of the war (I believe it took several weeks and some of the Conjoiner fleet's best engineers to install them on the Nostalgia). Unfortunately, the Demarchy no longer exists and several cache weapons have been destroyed or lost in the meantime.

In the latter case, I'd give the war to Revelation Space, hands down. More than a dozen lighthuggers and super-advanced stealth and weapons systems against the short-range Citadel fleet seems like a sure-fire recipe for a massacre.

The former case, however, is a bit more dubious. Aside from the Nostalgia, the Light and the Nightshade, I don't believe the Revelation Space factions possess any lighthuggers (the Demarchists certainly don't, and the only other Conjoiner lighthugger I can recall is the one that Clavain returned on, though that may have been destroyed), and two of those ships are technically civilian. The Demarchist and Conjoiner fleets are war-weary and depleted, use only the smaller ships and weapons, and were never very numerous in the first place. Revelation Space is heavily outnumbered.

This is where my ignorance of Mass Effect technology comes into play. Do we have any numbers on the destructiveness of Mass Effect weaponry and the effectiveness of their defences? The thousand-kilometre Demarchist railguns sound impressive, but if Mass Effect defences can ignore gigatons easily, then they aren't going to achieve much. EDIT: this video seems to imply that Mass Effect weaponry is not overly impressive, and thus their defences are not amazing either. Taking a direct hit from a 38 kilo-tonne slug would probably ruin the Nostalgia's day, but I don't know if that would be a certain kill. Equally, any Citadel ship would be extremely unhappy after being shot by a lighthugger.

Additionally, how does Mass Effect non-Relay FTL work? If the Citadel fleet can simply drop out of hyperspace on top of a lighthugger, then they're going to have no difficulty winning the war; Absolution Gap shows that a lighthugger's defences against a swarm of close-range targets are none too impressive. If not, the Revelation Space fleets will have a heavy advantage, as already noted, since they can consistently out-range their targets. That said, even the sub-light acceleration of Revelation Space ships is probably inferior to that of Mass Effect ships, so the fleet will be caught eventually. Whether their gunnery is accurate enough that they can eliminate the enemy before then remains to be seen.

[Ford Prefect]

The second two books intimate that a lot of the really amazing technology, like the Infinity's ridiculous antimatter powered shapeshifting surface-to-orbit flying spacesuits (which could probably do a number on a Mass Effect capital ship really), have been discarded by the Conjoiners and Demarchists in favour of less likely to be eaten by nanotech stuff.

[18-Till-I-Die]

I wasn't thinking of any particular timeline or setting per se, it's just a kind of "what if" scenario. But I should have mentioned, I'm not including the Conjoiner's stealth battleships (not sure what else to call them) just the basic weapons and ships everyone had during the war in the Yellowstone system. However, as Whiskey said, the Conjoiners and now Ultras and Demarchists would have access to all their tech--including the cryo-stealth technology which (again, I should have been more explicit) is why I specified Normandy's stealth and Reaper railgun is complete. Also because the Conjoiners can produce antimatter they'd have access to pinhole bombs--which, basically, are handheld antimatter nukes measured in multiple kilotons. One of those is probably as powerful as an Asari dreadnaught's main gun. Hypometric weapons are available, since that would indeed fall under "all their weapons, ships and tech" as I mentioned.

The two Lighthuggers I chose instead of "random ultra ships" cause, why not.

As to the Mass Effect FTL Drive, I don't believe it allows ships to come out on top of one another, it has never been used as such. I'm pretty sure it is basically a system-to-system jump drive. The idea behind it is that the Ezero (exotic matter) fuel the ship uses allows it to become massless in a way similar to a tachyon--or that's how I understand it anyway. The Mass Relays do the same, but create a corridor of space between them, so that kind of transit is extremely fast whereas the FTL Drive is much, much slower taking months or weeks to travel any real distance. It is mainly used to get around in local space like from here to Alpha Centauri in a few hours, as opposed to here to 500 ly away which would probably take weeks, maybe months. So no, no jumping out on top of people I don't think anyway.

At any rate, I'm actually a little torn myself, for lack of a better term, as I'm not sure who would win myself. Because both sides have at least one or two huge strategic advantages over the other.

The Citadel fleet has the capacity to rapidly re-supply, due to their extensive knowledge of the relay network. More so they have NUMBERS, if the ending of Mass Effect 1 is anything to go by the Citadel's own defense fleet numbers in the hundreds of ships so I imagine they can afford to eat casualties and keep coming. A Zerg Rush, basically. I can easily imagine, based on that showing, and the fact they pretty much bounced back quick from it, that the Citadel fleet can afford to lose something like half the ships they send to Yellowstone and bounce back in a few days, and can keep sending them. Mass Effect 3 seems to imply that they have thousands of ships.

The RevSpace factions have a range advantage which is almost impossible to overcome, for example in Redemption Ark we're told a fight between Conjoiners and Demarchists takes place at light-minute ranges or greater ON AVERAGE, whereas in Mass Effect battles take place at less than a light-second, significantly less. More so they have an advantage in firepower almost as daunting--the Demarchists have their huge Fuck You Very Much cannons, but the Conjoiners remember also have their own, more advanced version of the weapon--a No, Fuck You cannon if you will--which DOESN'T self-destruct when fired, so it can be maneuvered faster and used repeatedly. And the Ultras have all their bizarre "lost tech" nonsense and Cache WMDs.

If I were to describe the battle, I'd see it like this: Mass Effect uses their superior numbers and vastly superior resupply capacity to just eat and eat casualties and keep going but I can't really see them being able to get that close to any Demarchist or Conjoiner ships, even if they could find them which, I don't think they could, since they'd have stealth similar to the Normandy in at least most if not all their ships. This is before the Ultras start pulling out antimatter weapons and their crust-cracking "point defense" weapons. Also I would imagine the RevSpace factions have the advantage in speed somewhat, since once their ships get going they can reach very high relativistic speeds, or at least lighthuggers can. In a pitched battle, they'd eventually be overwhelmed.

Now if the RevSpace factions can actually take on the whole Citadel civilization is somewhat of a larger question. If the Citadel gets it's shit together they may be able to corral them like they did some other, less savory races. They have the numbers and swift FTL to just keep pouring ships into the area to keep them under siege if need be, but only if they have the political will to eat those kinds of losses. If not, if they hesitate or bicker too long, then the Demarchists, Conjoiners and Ultras may be able to just walk through them using superior range and firepower. Also I got to imagine some other races like the Geth may want to get on the good side of these guys, especially the Conjoiners who they would probably see as kindred spirits if not fellow synthetics. So if they do break out of the Yellowstone system they may develop allies rather quick.

That's how I see it anyway.

[bilateralrope]

I don't think the Revelation Space ships will be able to keep their range advantage. There it at least one codex entry about how, if a ME ship doesn't have a reason to stay and fight, it will just FTL away. So if they are outranged, they can and will flee. Or closer, the non-relay FTL is accurate enough to exit in planetary orbit, so landing within weapons range of a non-FTL ship should be easy enough.
Hit and run attacks might even be possible.

Keep in mind also that the lighthuggers have weapons that can bypass Reaper defenses (hypometric weapons)

ME shields only stop kinetic weaponry. Lasers, and possibly other energy weapons, will go through them like they aren't there.

[The Nomad]

The second two books intimate that a lot of the really amazing technology, like the Infinity's ridiculous antimatter powered shapeshifting surface-to-orbit flying spacesuits (which could probably do a number on a Mass Effect capital ship really), have been discarded by the Conjoiners and Demarchists in favour of less likely to be eaten by nanotech stuff.

The suits were actually fully capable of interplanetary flight IIRC. They were just 'woah'.

[inviz345]

well going reley to relay wont be a good idea as mass effect can put a drive core fire it at the relays destroying the star system.

[inviz345]

well going reley to relay wont be a good idea as mass effect can put a drive core on asteroid fire it at the relays destroying the star system.