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 Post subject: Ori Ancient VS Tzeentsch Greater Daemon PostPosted: 2012-05-31 08:47am
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Seriously, who would win in a fight? An Ori from Stargate:

Image

Or a Lord of Change of Tzeentsch the Chaos God of Hope, Scheming and Magic from the Warhammer Fantasy/40000 universes?

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 Post subject: Re: Ori Ancient VS Tzeentsch Greater Daemon PostPosted: 2012-05-31 09:06am
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If you can give me an example of an Ori stepping into the material plane of existence and throwing down I might be able to think about answering that question.

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 Post subject: Re: Ori Ancient VS Tzeentsch Greater Daemon PostPosted: 2012-05-31 09:13am
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Alkaloid wrote:
If you can give me an example of an Ori stepping into the material plane of existence and throwing down I might be able to think about answering that question.


http://stargate.wikia.com/wiki/Ascension

Everything you need to know about their capabilities is at the 'Powers' section. Ori have essentially the same powers as the Ancients, they ARE the Ancients, just different intents.



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 Post subject: Re: Ori Ancient VS Tzeentsch Greater Daemon PostPosted: 2012-05-31 01:05pm
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From there, Ori seem to be like the Necrons. Masters of physics and material world, but I see nothing protecting them from Warp's tainting influence, Keeper of Secrets tearing their soul apart, or ability to kill a being that can only be killed with warp energy.

This especially sucks due to the kind of Greater Daemon picked, them being masters of magic and knowledge, along with precognition abilities and extra resistance to attacks. Yes, there are purely technological means that will defeat Greater Daemon, but good luck using them or even finding about them without prior contact with Warp.

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 Post subject: Re: Ori Ancient VS Tzeentsch Greater Daemon PostPosted: 2012-05-31 02:12pm
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Granted one of the easiest purely technological ways to defeat a greater daemon is to shoot it enough that it's form in the real world breaks down and it's forced to retreat back into the warp, of course you need insane amount of firepower to do this.



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 Post subject: Re: Ori Ancient VS Tzeentsch Greater Daemon PostPosted: 2012-05-31 02:56pm
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Lord Revan wrote:
Granted one of the easiest purely technological ways to defeat a greater daemon is to shoot it enough that it's form in the real world breaks down and it's forced to retreat back into the warp, of course you need insane amount of firepower to do this.


The ancient in Stargate Atlantis' Sactuary destroyed an entire wraith fleet, is that enough?




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 Post subject: Re: Ori Ancient VS Tzeentsch Greater Daemon PostPosted: 2012-05-31 03:12pm
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Themightytom wrote:
Lord Revan wrote:
Granted one of the easiest purely technological ways to defeat a greater daemon is to shoot it enough that it's form in the real world breaks down and it's forced to retreat back into the warp, of course you need insane amount of firepower to do this.


The ancient in Stargate Atlantis' Sactuary destroyed an entire wraith fleet, is that enough?
needs more detail to be sure.
How poweful of a daemon are we speaking, what's a the ambient warp presence like, how much energy it took to take down the wraith ships, was it brute force or did the ancient use a trick and last but most certainly not least was she a repetensitive of a "generic" ancient or somehow special?

as you can see a generic question like that raises only more questions



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 Post subject: Re: Ori Ancient VS Tzeentsch Greater Daemon PostPosted: 2012-05-31 05:24pm
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Lord Revan wrote:
Granted one of the easiest purely technological ways to defeat a greater daemon is to shoot it enough that it's form in the real world breaks down and it's forced to retreat back into the warp, of course you need insane amount of firepower to do this.

Note - this only works in some cases, doesn't kill the daemon (so he keeps coming back for more), and sometimes has nasty side-effect of detonating warp energy gathered by daemon, or weakening local barrier dividing materium and warp - causing corruption in anything in the vicinity.

Pretty much only technology that works on them is either Necron/Slann-grade advanced, or requires very strong psyker, like Grey Knight Brother Captain, SM Chief Librarian, or Eldar Farseer, to back it up so that daemon doesn't yawn and turn the device into spaghetti.

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 Post subject: Re: Ori Ancient VS Tzeentsch Greater Daemon PostPosted: 2012-05-31 09:00pm
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Well it really depends on how strong the ambient warp field/presence is, if it's weak enough Greater Daemons can be taken out by "reasonble" firepower (since they're using bulk of their strength to simply exist in the real world), which is probably how elements of the Blood Ravens 3rd and 5th companies took out Ulkair (a Great Unclean One) and the Black Legion forces assisting him in Aurelia. That said greater daemons don't normally show up unless there's a strong ambient warp presence, unless they're specifically summoned obviously.

granted stronger the warp presence is the greater the power of the daemons physical form is (since they can use a larger part of their strength for combat rather then just existing)



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 Post subject: Re: Ori Ancient VS Tzeentsch Greater Daemon PostPosted: 2012-06-01 04:44am
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Ulkair had only recently been resummoned, though, had Blood Ravens Librarians (and very strong chaos psyker following different fraction) working against him, and it the end, he wasn't dead, just banished for a while.

Remind me, wasn't Ulkair's backstory the one stating greatest Chief Librarian of Blood Ravens had to sacrifice his life merely to banish him for a while? So, without force weapons, you're out of luck. The exact quote was, IIRC:

"Here - a thousand years ago - in this place. Moriah, mightiest of the Blood Ravens, battled the great Ulkair. With his dying breath, did Moriah stab at the heart of the Great One. What none could slay, he wounded. And so noble Moriah died, with only his student Kyras left to mourn him. Weakened, the Great One could not resist Kyras. The hated student bound and shackled Ulkair."

And your part about 'weak' Greater Daemons describes normal ones better, IMHO. Ulkair pulled entire planet into the Warp while battling Moriah and Kyras, there is reason Greater Daemons are threat even to Primarchs.

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 Post subject: Re: Ori Ancient VS Tzeentsch Greater Daemon PostPosted: 2012-06-01 11:45am
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Yes there were reasons Ulkair was weak, that doesn't change the fact he was weak. besides I suspect banishment would count as a "victory" for the OP. yeah I admit that under optimal conditions a greater daemon is practically unstoppble and yes I know Ulkair pulled Aurelia into the warp during his first defeat.

oh and IIRC Ulkair first banishment lasted for centuries if not millenia that a rather broad defination of "for a while"



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 Post subject: Re: Ori Ancient VS Tzeentsch Greater Daemon PostPosted: 2012-06-02 06:36am
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There is no known upper limit on the powers of ascended beings, but it includes blasting away fleets and armies "with a thought." (SG1, Maternal Instinct, SGA, "Sanctuary")

The mere fact that we see Tzeentchian greater demons actually fight in battles against mortals strongly suggests they've got nothing on the same level. The ancients can in fact, do these things without actually manifesting in the material world.

In short it's going to be getting hit with multi-megaton lightning bolts while it skitters around trying and failing to find where the hurt is coming from.

Hallowed are the Ori.



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 Post subject: Re: Ori Ancient VS Tzeentsch Greater Daemon PostPosted: 2012-06-04 04:17am
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NecronLord wrote:
There is no known upper limit on the powers of ascended beings, but it includes blasting away fleets and armies "with a thought." (SG1, Maternal Instinct, SGA, "Sanctuary")

The mere fact that we see Tzeentchian greater demons actually fight in battles against mortals strongly suggests they've got nothing on the same level. The ancients can in fact, do these things without actually manifesting in the material world.

The problem is what individuals we're talking about. Let's take a Grey Knight - you need a million psykers, which are themselves one in a million deal, to produce just one. Then, out of thousand Grey Knights, maybe 8-12 are strong enough to battle Greater Daemon. These numbers are pretty much even worse than ones you need to produce ascended being in Stargate universe.

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In short it's going to be getting hit with multi-megaton lightning bolts while it skitters around trying and failing to find where the hurt is coming from.

The problem is, orbital bombardment doesn't work on daemons. As in, regular daemons, not greater ones. Once Warp is weak enough for them to manifest freely, you need to cut them off from Immaterium somehow, forcing them to run, regular firepower does nothing.

That, and the match above is worst possible one. Ascended being might be immune to Chaos diseases (Nurgle), being cut with an axe (Khorne), seduction (Slaanesh), but I doubt he is immune to pure magic (Tzeentch) it has no idea how to defend against. Failing to find? Lords of Change have precognition and supernatural access to knowledge, they have reputation of having everything done against them to turn out 'just as planned' for a reason.

Unless Ori can somehow produce Necron-grade blank field, Necron-grade trapping device, protect himself from being utterly corrupted, protect against top grade supernatural attacks, or just somehow isolate GD from the Immaterium, he will lose, no matter what conventional tricks he or she might have. Necrons can explode stars at whim and laugh at the face of physics, and even they didn't find a way to defeat Warp beings, merely to stall them long enough to functionally declare victory. Now, Ori can be capable of doing so, but I'd like to see any examples of things that might enable them victory, I saw nothing in the linked description.

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 Post subject: Re: Ori Ancient VS Tzeentsch Greater Daemon PostPosted: 2012-06-04 09:03am
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Irbis wrote:
The problem is what individuals we're talking about. Let's take a Grey Knight - you need a million psykers, which are themselves one in a million deal, to produce just one. Then, out of thousand Grey Knights, maybe 8-12 are strong enough to battle Greater Daemon. These numbers are pretty much even worse than ones you need to produce ascended being in Stargate universe.
That has no relevance. The Imperium cannot produce one ascended being; thus has no individuals of the mental strength required to ascend... An Ori is thus mentally stronger than Kaldor Draigo, and bitch slaps it. Or we could just remember that they're separate settings.
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The problem is, orbital bombardment doesn't work on daemons. As in, regular daemons, not greater ones. Once Warp is weak enough for them to manifest freely, you need to cut them off from Immaterium somehow, forcing them to run, regular firepower does nothing.
Please post a source where a greater demon takes something that can annihilate a starfleet to the face and keeps on trucking. Also remember that we're talking about WHFB too here. Where demon armies can be and are defeated by guys with muskets and cannons.
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That, and the match above is worst possible one. Ascended being might be immune to Chaos diseases (Nurgle), being cut with an axe (Khorne), seduction (Slaanesh), but I doubt he is immune to pure magic (Tzeentch) it has no idea how to defend against. Failing to find? Lords of Change have precognition and supernatural access to knowledge, they have reputation of having everything done against them to turn out 'just as planned' for a reason.
No, resorting to memes will not produce an answer. How can chaos corrupt something it cannot sense? Something without a soul? Even in 40K, chaos is not magical, in most sources you can just say 'no.' How can a demon fight something it cannot touch? Which can blast it with megaton bolts of firepower every second.

Chaos corruption is a brainbug. I want you now to explain how chaos will corrupt an Ori, or concede. Do not resort to "a wizard did it" or "taint" what power will it use? What inducement?

To corrupt Horus they had to do the whole shebang in Horus Rising. And he was a guy, with a physical brain to futz with, not something as out of their experience as an Ori.



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 Post subject: Re: Ori Ancient VS Tzeentsch Greater Daemon PostPosted: 2012-06-04 10:24am
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NecronLord wrote:
That has no relevance. The Imperium cannot produce one ascended being; thus has no individuals of the mental strength required to ascend... An Ori is thus mentally stronger than Kaldor Draigo, and bitch slaps it. Or we could just remember that they're separate settings.


Umm, that is not correct. The Imperium doesn't have Ascended beings because ascension is impossible in the WH 40K universe, not because they don't have the mental strength to do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Ori Ancient VS Tzeentsch Greater Daemon PostPosted: 2012-06-04 11:32am
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The Imperator wrote:
NecronLord wrote:
That has no relevance. The Imperium cannot produce one ascended being; thus has no individuals of the mental strength required to ascend... An Ori is thus mentally stronger than Kaldor Draigo, and bitch slaps it. Or we could just remember that they're separate settings.


Umm, that is not correct. The Imperium doesn't have Ascended beings because ascension is impossible in the WH 40K universe, not because they don't have the mental strength to do it.

That is the point of my statement. IT. IS. SARCASM.

He is arguing that the Imperium only has a certain number of people who can withstand being near a greater demon and this proves something, because clearly an Ori could not do so... because they're even more one in a million or some shit. He presumes a direct equivalence between the nature of funky powers in the two universes; IE that how hard it is for the Imperium to make a grey knight has some bearing on how powerful an Ori is. It does not.

My reply is that if that's so, then we should also consider that the difficulty of ascension should also have some bearing on judging the Imperium's mental abilities.

Hence why I tell him to remember they're seperate settings; how hard it is for the Imperium to make GKs is irrelevant in this, only if GKs are in any way comparable to Ori.

Only quantifiable measurements can be used to compare things; the difficulty of the Imperium in making a Grey Knight is irrelvant.



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 Post subject: Re: Ori Ancient VS Tzeentsch Greater Daemon PostPosted: 2012-06-04 11:59am
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NecronLord wrote:
The Imperator wrote:
NecronLord wrote:
That has no relevance. The Imperium cannot produce one ascended being; thus has no individuals of the mental strength required to ascend... An Ori is thus mentally stronger than Kaldor Draigo, and bitch slaps it. Or we could just remember that they're separate settings.


Umm, that is not correct. The Imperium doesn't have Ascended beings because ascension is impossible in the WH 40K universe, not because they don't have the mental strength to do it.

That is the point of my statement. IT. IS. SARCASM.

He is arguing that the Imperium only has a certain number of people who can withstand being near a greater demon and this proves something, because clearly an Ori could not do so... because they're even more one in a million or some shit. He presumes a direct equivalence between the nature of funky powers in the two universes; IE that how hard it is for the Imperium to make a grey knight has some bearing on how powerful an Ori is. It does not.

My reply is that if that's so, then we should also consider that the difficulty of ascension should also have some bearing on judging the Imperium's mental abilities.

Hence why I tell him to remember they're seperate settings; how hard it is for the Imperium to make GKs is irrelevant in this, only if GKs are in any way comparable to Ori.

Only quantifiable measurements can be used to compare things; the difficulty of the Imperium in making a Grey Knight is irrelvant.


Oh, sorry :oops: :oops: I didn't read all the other posts, I just skimmed.

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