Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

[Simon_Jester]

The Imperium basically tries to tithe something from every planet it can. Planets with serious industrial infrastructure or resources can pay those, but horrible shitworlds usually can't. About the only thing they'll have going for them is warm bodies, so they pay their tithes in that- which is a large part of why there are so many warm bodies in the guard.

The alternative would be to make Imperial taxes on planets progressive rather than flat- to make feral worlds exempt from the tithe. That's contrary to their policies and to tell the truth I can't blame them; their society is so decentralized that a lot of worlds would wander away from the Imperium entirely if they weren't subject to Imperial taxes and under Imperial authority on a regular basis to enforce that.

[Gunhead]

The Imperium basically tries to tithe something from every planet it can. Planets with serious industrial infrastructure or resources can pay those, but horrible shitworlds usually can't. About the only thing they'll have going for them is warm bodies, so they pay their tithes in that- which is a large part of why there are so many warm bodies in the guard.

The alternative would be to make Imperial taxes on planets progressive rather than flat- to make feral worlds exempt from the tithe. That's contrary to their policies and to tell the truth I can't blame them; their society is so decentralized that a lot of worlds would wander away from the Imperium entirely if they weren't subject to Imperial taxes and under Imperial authority on a regular basis to enforce that.

Yeah, the big contradiction is the real big warm body worlds are the hive worlds not the shit holes and in terms of population concentration hives make a lot more logical choice for getting more recruits. This of course doesn't totally rule out less developed worlds as potential recruiting grounds, though I still think this only make sense if you can economically move them / train them on the world they are on. Gathering a tithe for tithe's sake is all fine an good if the cost of getting it doesn't outweigh what is actually gotten, in whatever obscure terms the tithes are valued. In essence, I think the real shit holes pay tithe on paper only considering how vast the grand economical scale is and how easily you could bury relatively tiny amounts under the red tape and I doubt people in power really care what goes on in the backwaters they are nominally controlling.

-Gunhead

[Zinegata]

Meh.. that's well.. more or less true depending on the source as it is. I still don't see the value of getting "brutal" troops from some forgotten hell hole, or wasting time and resources on making niche troops. If I want either I'll just train some from a place that already has all the mechanisms in place. People are easy to come by in the imperium so they'd need to be ungodly special to be worth the time and effort.

-Gunhead

Thematically, it's a holdover from European armies from the dawn of the 20th Century. They all tried to recruit some kind of "tribal" troops who they saw as having superior warmaking and fieldcraft skills that the peasants and cityfolk who were now making up the majority of the population didn't have. The Russians had their Cossacks, the French their Zouaves, and the Austrians their Bosnian infantry. The Brits also employed various Indian tribes / Rajs to help them police the subcontinent; and may of these units ended up becoming part of the Indian Army.

Today just about the only survivor of this system are the Ghurkas of Nepal.

[Purple]

It does make sense to some extent thou. For example a scout regiment that you expect will have to split up into smaller groups and forage off the land it would make sense to recruit people who have done this for a living and not people who spent their whole lives eating stuff from the supermarket.

[Simon_Jester]

It turns out, empirically, that you can recruit city kids for this. It works.

On the other hand, the messed-up way the Guard handles outfitting of its regiments... hm. I see a problem. Sure, there's plenty of manpower on the more industrialized worlds, but those planets are responsible for equipping and training their own regiments, which means they will probably try to equip them in terms of... 'tech-oriented' warfare. Which isn't an accurate term, but I mean the training will focus on things like heavy weapons, artillery, armor, fighting in urban environments, and so on. Whereas it won't be that hard to encourage more rural worlds to emphasize fieldcraft in their training.

Remember that planets are expected to provide complete, combat-ready units to the Guard: there is no Guard boot camp run by the Imperium to make sure everyone gets a uniform standard of training.

Another point is that I'm honestly not sure what the ratio of primitive feral/rural/agricultural worlds is to large industrialized worlds, but it may actually make the population imbalance regarding "sources of warm bodies" shift. Especially if a lot of hive cities, like early 19th century British industrial towns they seem to be scaled up from, are mortality sinks. Imagine if living conditions in many hives are bad enough for the majority of the population that it artificially depresses their life expectancy compared to what people living in open country on a planet with a healthy ecosystem would get.

There will be exceptions to that rule, but ill-health caused by carcinogens in the air and unsanitary living conditions might make the typical hive soldier from the typical hive world an inferior physical specimen as well as limiting the kind of training he can receive.

[Gunhead]

In grim darkness of the the future there is only medicare? Hehe, just me and a friend discussed this a while back and we found out that despite grimdark toil sweat and toxicity, there's very little indication that the average lifespan in a hive would be drastically different from what it is today. For the most part it seems to follow the same economical figures i.e have nots die young and haves live longer. I think Connor had some ideas / more data about this, but I can't be bothered to go dig through old threads right now, beer is calling me.

-Gunhead

[Simon_Jester]

I think the effects would be more exaggerated is all- industry is generally less OSHA/EPA-friendly in a hive world, given how fucked up their ecology is.

Basically, the "haves" can potentially live for hundreds of years because of anti-agathic treatments. The "have-nots" who are members of the 'middle class' of clerks and priests and whatnot probably live about as long as we do normally. The factory workers? Hard to say. The underhive people... well, there wouldn't be swarms of mutants and crap down there there weren't a lot of public health hazards too.

I'm not saying this is a high order effect, but between that and the tendency for hive-world soldiers to be trained for fighting in hives, with heavy technological weapons, in a technical environment. Which is probably great for things like policing other hive worlds, but not so great for open-field battles.

[Connor MacLeod]

Meh.. that's well.. more or less true depending on the source as it is. I still don't see the value of getting "brutal" troops from some forgotten hell hole, or wasting time and resources on making niche troops. If I want either I'll just train some from a place that already has all the mechanisms in place. People are easy to come by in the imperium so they'd need to be ungodly special to be worth the time and effort.

-Gunhead

For the vast majority of cases you're right, there really isn't a point, not when they have civilised, industrial, and hive worlds they can draw more troops from. Hell we know from 5th edition that hive worlds are numerous enough that they more than likely makeup a significant portion of troop tithes on average, and adding in all the civilised/modern worlds (which can include lesser hives) makes that even more likely. It's especially true when you consider that many feral and feudal worlds tend to be in the millions (along with many agri or mining worlds) so there is very little way they could even match a fraction of that.

Again its a 'depends on source' sort of thing, but enough evidence exists to suggest that 'feral/feudal' raisings are not very common. Many of the 'primitive' worlds are little more than preserves or outposts (little to no Imperial presence onplanet and the planetary commander is in orbit.) They may provide some sort of tithe but are relatively minor in the greater picture. Others, like Attila, may be tithed because they produce specialists of one kind or another (recon, scout, light infantry types seem relatively common - which BTW does seem to include the 'Rough Rider' regiments. Another example of specialists IIRC Are Ogryrns whoa re definitely feral and the Kanak Skulltakers.) As specialists they would serve specific roles and generally not require large or frequent foundings. We know that alot of worlds that have small populations or specialized production (agri or mining worlds, as well as some Death worlds, are included in this.) may only raise a regiment once every few years, or decade, or generation or even century. They may be deemed either too unimportant to deal with directly, or they may meet their obligations in some other form than manpower usually (agri worlds especially here.)

There is also the fact there are a number of different kind of 'tithings' for troops, ranging from the PDF tithe (at least 10%, sometimes more) as a regular requirement, as well as the 'at need' tithes when a crisis arises (or they're going to war, or whatever reason might occur) which can draw off from any existing military formations, or mass conscription.

Gathering a tithe for tithe's sake is all fine an good if the cost of getting it doesn't outweigh what is actually gotten, in whatever obscure terms the tithes are valued. In essence, I think the real shit holes pay tithe on paper only considering how vast the grand economical scale is and how easily you could bury relatively tiny amounts under the red tape and I doubt people in power really care what goes on in the backwaters they are nominally controlling.

-Gunhead

Remember that not all worlds are equal, and their contact with (or knowledge of) the Imperium can vary as well. We hear of those worlds who go years or decades without contact with the Imperium (or the greater galaxy) or may even have been forgotten by the greater galaxy (including tithing.) for various reasons. Collection of Tithes is also not held on any particular pattern either.. some worlds may provide a tithe of some kind annually, while others may go far longer between collections (If at all.)

Alot of it depends on how one figures the Imperium is organized though, as it differs (slightly) from source to source. For my part I tend to like the FFG type organization which follows what Abnett set up in Eisenhorn and Ravenor. This all ties into the big, messy 'taxation and trade' issue with the nonmilitary side of the Imperium, which in turn ties into issues like 'how many ships they actually have' and the different kinds (Chartist vs Navigator-piloted, for example.)

despite grimdark toil sweat and toxicity, there's very little indication that the average lifespan in a hive would be drastically different from what it is today. For the most part it seems to follow the same economical figures i.e have nots die young and haves live longer. I think Connor had some ideas / more data about this, but I can't be bothered to go dig through old threads right now, beer is calling me.

I'm drawing a blank. You might be drawing on some hints about living conditions in/around hive worlds like Necromudna (which can be variable depending on the level you live in as well as the specific world.) or maybe average lifespan (again, a blank.) But one thing ot remember is that 'hive world' is no longer as rigidly defined as it was back in 3rd edition or so. Hives can range from fucked up worlds like Necromunda to the Eisenhorn/rAvenor type 'hive worlds' (more habitable and less densely populated, but may also still be fairly shitty.) Once I get into the Ravenor stuff we start seeing a bit more of this.

[Connor MacLeod]

One of the more amusing 'implications' about the scope of the Imperium struck me when I was reading Warriors of Ultramar. The story supposedly has this world that as modelled in the image of the Ultramar sector, which is supposed to be some bastion of hope and light and competence and greatness in the Imperium. Apparently Spiritual Liege (henceforce to be referred to as S.L.) left behind all sorts of guys to help rebuild and reorganize worlds in the image of Ultramar.

Now, we know from both the HH series and the 5th edition Codex that the Ultrasmurfs were both the largest Legion but that Gulliman was some great guy both before and after (great administrator, great leader, info-nut, etc.) and Ultramar alone encompassed some 500 worlds. What's more, we've learned from 5th edition that more than half (or in some cases close to 2/3 or 3/4) of the existing Chapters (Each of which is supposed to govern/control a fair number of worlds on their own as protectorates and shit) are descended from the Smurfs and are supposed to be utterly and totally devoted to Calgar and the UM and the ideals of the SL and all that shit that makes it seem like they're still a fucking legion.

Given all those facts, it stands to reason that a fair chunk of the Imperium (at least if you hold to the 'one million worlds and not a world more' belief.) is made up of Ultramarines, quite possibly the majority, and that each of those worlds is, to some degree or another, a reflection of Ultramar, Guilliman, etc.

I shall now step back and watch the rage make everyone's heads explode. Bear in mind that this is just ONE interpretation, but its certainly a valid one and you can find plenty of evidence to back it up. I like it perversely for the anti-grimdark tone it takes.

[Simon_Jester]

Again its a 'depends on source' sort of thing, but enough evidence exists to suggest that 'feral/feudal' raisings are not very common. Many of the 'primitive' worlds are little more than preserves or outposts (little to no Imperial presence onplanet and the planetary commander is in orbit.) They may provide some sort of tithe but are relatively minor in the greater picture. Others, like Attila, may be tithed because they produce specialists of one kind or another (recon, scout, light infantry types seem relatively common - which BTW does seem to include the 'Rough Rider' regiments.

Horse cavalry can actually be competent scouts in an environment where you don't need the extreme mobility of a mechanized force. They're not especially fast, but they're not as glacier-slow as marching infantry. If I had to launch a ground campaign on a planet with little or no infrastructure, and control large open territories without benefit of tons of air cavalry and the like... flying columns of cavalry supported by light armor would actually not be the worst thing I could do.

(Another example of specialists IIRC Are Ogryrns whoa re definitely feral and the Kanak Skulltakers.)

Although you might see ogryns as de facto slaves on an otherwise civilized planet, of course- the fact that they're useful for their big muscles won't go away just because the planet has factories. The Imperium would be just the sort of society that would rather hire an ogryn to carry 300-kilogram car engines instead of using a man with a forklift, for example.

One of the more amusing 'implications' about the scope of the Imperium struck me when I was reading Warriors of Ultramar. The story supposedly has this world that as modelled in the image of the Ultramar sector, which is supposed to be some bastion of hope and light and competence and greatness in the Imperium. Apparently Spiritual Liege (henceforce to be referred to as S.L.) left behind all sorts of guys to help rebuild and reorganize worlds in the image of Ultramar.

Now, we know from both the HH series and the 5th edition Codex that the Ultrasmurfs were both the largest Legion but that Gulliman was some great guy both before and after (great administrator, great leader, info-nut, etc.) and Ultramar alone encompassed some 500 worlds. What's more, we've learned from 5th edition that more than half (or in some cases close to 2/3 or 3/4) of the existing Chapters (Each of which is supposed to govern/control a fair number of worlds on their own as protectorates and shit) are descended from the Smurfs and are supposed to be utterly and totally devoted to Calgar and the UM and the ideals of the SL and all that shit that makes it seem like they're still a fucking legion.

Given all those facts, it stands to reason that a fair chunk of the Imperium (at least if you hold to the 'one million worlds and not a world more' belief.) is made up of Ultramarines, quite possibly the majority, and that each of those worlds is, to some degree or another, a reflection of Ultramar, Guilliman, etc.

I shall now step back and watch the rage make everyone's heads explode. Bear in mind that this is just ONE interpretation, but its certainly a valid one and you can find plenty of evidence to back it up. I like it perversely for the anti-grimdark tone it takes.

Well, the largest number of worlds I'd assign to the Ultramarines and the 500 or so chapters that can plausibly be descended from them would be several thousand. Remember, we know of at least one Second Founding chapter, split off from the Ultramarines while Guilliman was still alive: the Iron Snakes. And they show no interest in governing any of the worlds immediately around themselves at all- hell, they don't really even rule their own world, or if they do there's not much evidence for it.

That said, there may be a hundred or two hundred mini-Ultramars scattered around the galaxy; I wouldn't be surprised.

[Ultonius]

Thematically, it's a holdover from European armies from the dawn of the 20th Century. They all tried to recruit some kind of "tribal" troops who they saw as having superior warmaking and fieldcraft skills that the peasants and cityfolk who were now making up the majority of the population didn't have. The Russians had their Cossacks, the French their Zouaves, and the Austrians their Bosnian infantry. The Brits also employed various Indian tribes / Rajs to help them police the subcontinent; and may of these units ended up becoming part of the Indian Army.

Today just about the only survivor of this system are the Ghurkas of Nepal.

In Britain, this tradition is arguably even older, with the regiments raised in the 18th century from the semi-feudal clan-based society of the Scottish Highlands.

[Connor MacLeod]

IA 6 gets its debut. I'm not really going to comment much on it since its a continuation of the previous book, which means we descend further into madness and (it seems) stupidity. My hopes that this would not be as bad as Taros have been dashed. It seems to be something of a symptomatic problem with Forge world that some deem it 'stupid'. While others seem to find it 'thematically appropriate' to 40K. The difference (and problem) seem to lie in theme. Basically FW approaches the series intending to write the wars a certain way. A conflict with the tau (IA3), or a conflict between Imperium and Chaos featuring trench/attrition warfare (at least as they see it), etc. Which is all well and good, but they seem to utterly fail in execution, and end up making the Imperium (and others) look like complete idiots in the process because of how contrived everything is. I've already discussed IA3, but with IA5 we have various problems that stem from the whole 'MUST TELL TRENCH WARFARE STORY' - the lack of air support. The manner in which they go about the conflict (which has been discussed already) and its contradictions, the lack of concern about taking too long and giving time for other factions (EG Chaos) to get into the fray. Practicality and competence seem to be subordinated to the needs of the story.. hence the contrivances. I suppose if you only care about 'theme' of 40K (which I don't) it doesn't matter, but it kinda gets annoying. Especially when it seems anyone else (except perhaps the Eldar) don't have this problem.

The main differences in this book is that we're getitng more 'Chaosy' at this point, the conflict actually extends above and beyond the planet (for whatever it is worth), but we're still stuck with the Krieg, and we're still stuck in trench warfare.. because the story demands it.

Page 6

As the guns thundered out their first bombardments, millions of men were digging the first trench lines, ready to begin the slow attrition needed to wear down the traitor forces.

Yet more confirmation (if we needed it) of millions of troops on Krieg.

Page 6

The sorcerers of the Alpha Legion sent a psychic signal through the warp. It was a call to draw old allies to Vraks. Those forces secretly lurking aorund the Eye of Terror who heard the call were drawn like moths to a flame by a psychic light...
...
The warp storms that engulfed the systems of the Eye were fierce, raging without end and navigating them would e impossible even for the most skilled navigator. Imperial Navy vessels that attempted to navigate the storms risked being destroyed or could be cast to all points of the galaxy, emerging in far distant unsuspecting systems. But for the Chaos worshippers that launched their armadas from within, the fickleness of the warp was to be embraced.

This seems to suggest an astropathic-like ability for Chaos troops, although it doesnt need to send a specific, coherent or even encrypted message - feelings or emotions probably would work. In that sense I suppose its more like the WAAAGH effect. Something similar happened in 'Lord of the Night', and we know that conflicts and specific 'Chaos-themed' catastrophes can draw more support (EG bloodshed and warfare will draw Khornates.)

Also, Chaos troops (at least some kind) don't care how accurate their warp travel is, a bit of a throwback I think to when chaos cultists used space hulks for travel. Of course a more sane (relatively speaking) Chaos commander with a precise objective (Say Abbadon) may get ticked at this osrt of thing.

Page 6

Ancient battleships, heavily armed... .. heard the call.
..
Ancient engines flared into life and bulkheads strained as the warships and transports began to move...
..
Most of those that received the Alpha Legion's psychic signal were raiding ships and their supporting transports. Such vessels constnatly skirted the Eye of Terror, often emerging to launch a bloody raid against a human colony or a poorly defended shipping convoy. Many were simply pirates or other renegades from the Imperium's justice.

The sorts of Chaos forces mobilized towards Vraks. Again you have to wonder why the Imperium never figured Chaos would become a problem so close to the Eye... oh wait they did fear Vraks would become a magnet for Chaos forces. But they still decided to go with trench warfare anyways. Demands of thematically appropriate-ness and all that

Page 6

Observation station DM498-066 is just one of many secret outposts that keep a silent vigil on the Eye of Terror. Vraks itself had been a collating point for some of this data, with its choir of astropaths being able to relate any important information to surrounding systems and further afield as an early warnign system against attacks or even an emerging Black Crusade.

..

Although Vraks had been lost, other systmes were still recieving and transmitting the information from the outposts.
Station DM498-066's sensitive warp vanes detected the passage of several large, unidentified vessels in its vicinity, well off the usual trade and patrol routes. The station's astropath transmitted a warning message which, after several weeks, reached Battleflet Scarus' High Command. Taking careful plottings and referring to their own diviners, the Imperial Navy commanders dispatchd patrol groups ot systems likely to be the intruder fleet's destination. Several cruiser groups were alerted and brought to readiness in expectation of a raid by Chaos vessels. Even an Adeptus Astartes fast response strike force was put on alert to move to intercept if needed.

Two things of interest for this. One, indication of some FTL ability to passively monitor warp traffic, which is a sort of FTL sensor (just not of use outside a 40K context, probably) which probably explains how/why the Observation posts around the Eye (or throughout the galaxy) function. how it does this, we dont know, but it could be psychically tied (Astropaths are supposed to serve this function after all, as are Librarians.)

Second, the astropaths seem to form some sort of "network" in or around the Eye for the purpose of transmitting information amongst multiple sources, which when coupled with other sources (diviners, the plottings - whatever those are- etc.) acts as a sort of early warning system.

Also, it took "sveral weeks" for the message to be transmitted form close ot the eye to Scarus high command. That.. probably isn't a huge distance.. hundreds or thousands of LY tops perhaps, so we're talking a rather slow comm speed. Of course, given how fucked up things are close to the Eye, this probably isnt a great shock either. IF Navigators are screwed, so probably are the Astropaths.

Page 6

A nullship - a one way mission intot he Eye crewed by automated serivtors and a single pariah, untraceable through the warp but equipped with powerful augurs and communciatiosn equipment was launched. Its augurs would seek out the mystery vessels and report back their location.
The Inquistiion's nullship did its job, tracking the target's pasage before continuing its suicidal one-way mission deeper into the raging warp storms, transmitting until all communication was lost forever.
..

These vessels were indeed Chaos raiders, many were of at least cruiser size...

..

So far almost thirty individual vessels had been positively identified.

The Inquisiton takes its own recon steps. Note the nullship is specifically "automated" (vai servitor) and is shielded. This peculiar version of shielding seems to differ from others, relying on a pariah to do it rather than other means. That.. can't be done very often, since there is only one pariah per billions of folk.

The Pariah's presence also raises questions as to how the data observed was transmitted to the Inquisition. Even with a ship close to the Eye, there would almost certainly have to be light years of distance between the nullship and whatever recipient there is, and the pariah, coupled with the general fuckery in and around the Eye, would probably make astropathic communcation unreliable if not impossible. And yet, somehow the Inquisition managed to translate FTL data reliably from inside the Eye.

Co-opted Xenos technolgoy, perhaps? It would have to be something they could replicate at least in limited degree, since the sending device would be sent with the null ship (and thus expendable.)

One thing that bugs me is: If the Inquisition is getting involved, why would they stick with trench warfare and the Krieg? Shouldn't that be justification to be hauling more troops, ships and Marines in from surrounding regions?


Page 7

Astropathic messages flashed around the ports, bases and command ships of Battlefleet Scarus. Scout and patrol vessels were re-directed to cover the enemy armada's suspected approach. The big capitol ships were also ordred out from their home ports, including the fleet's flagship, the mighty Emperor class battleship Constantin Valdor. The battlefleet mobilized and prepared itself for a major fleet action. An enemy fleet of over thirty vessels had been positively identified and must be hounded, cornered and destroyed.

The response to an impending assault of a mere thirty or so vessels from the Eye.


Page 7

As the buildup of troops was completed, so the need to transport the many supplies to prosecute the war began. Ships bringing new recruits, thousands of tonnes of munitions, replacement vehicles, fuel and every item required to grind odwn the enemy over twelve years arrived in convoy after convoy. These valuable supplies needed the constant protection of the Imperial Navy so a fleet of Imperial Navy vessels had been stationed in the Vraks system. There was an escort suqadron of Sword class frigates to accompany each convoy to and from its destination and patrol the system's outer reaches to guard against raiders. A squadron of system defence monitors had been towed in to provide close protection for the vulnerable freighters in orbit; these vessels carried neough firepower to deter the boldest pirates or even roving raiders from the Eye of Terror. Commanding these squadrons was the venerable Lunar class cruiser Lord Bellerophon...
...
A potent ship of the line, she had been seconded from BAttlefleet Scarus for the duration of the campaign. One of over six hundred Lunar class vessels in service across Segmentum Obscuras,...

The scale of the offensive against Vraks. It implies that the resupply of men and troops was fairly regular over the course of the war, although not knowing how many trips were made or how often limits our ability to derive anything from this. Later gives implications of weeks to months but..

Also, only 600 Lunar class in Segmentum Obscurus total, which is IIRC hinted at in BFG. I wonder how many other cruiser classes there might be.

Also note that Krieg continues to provide new reinforcements ot the existing regiments on Vraks. This is despite the assertions by certain other sources that reinforcement of regiments is meant to be impossible except in rare cases like the Vostryoans (where its more tradition) and that depleted regiments invaribly either get mustered out of hte Guard as colonist-conquerors, or they are banded togethr with other depleted regiments to form a whole new regiment. Or, sometime,s they draw recruits from the local populace (Eg like the Ghosts did at Verghast.) We're still left wondering why noone OTHER than the Krieg respond to Vraks (except for the whole 'we need a trench warfare story' theme crap.)

Another, although a bit minor point is the towing of sublight defence monitors to the Vraks system as a more permanant defense. Considering that they are supposed to be more common (and probably Navy crewed) this probably isn't a bad way of reinforcing or bolsteirng forces. It's also a bit akin to the "sublight parasites" from earlier sourcs (space fleet).


Page 7

But after a decade of war on the ground...
...
...the fleet defending Vraks had been gradually downgraded. The Lord Bellerophon had its crew stripped ofr postings elsewhere and manpower for the other vessels had also been re-deployed. The escort squadron had been reduced in numbera nd the remaining three ships were now in need of refits , having ploughed the warp lanes back and forth from supply depots across the Scarus sector or even as far as Lucius forge world. Only the defence monitors were still rated as in good fighitng condition.
..
It seemed that Vraks was becoming a low priority...

Always that threat of priority. It haunted Taros, it's haunted other Imperial campaigns, and its a recurring theme (along with politics in general) at Taros. Politics and the priority of individual conflicts is often something that has to be accounted for in analysis, as it is a relative judgement (and differs.) Vraks might still be considred more valuable than Taros, but we're still not talking a major campaign by Imperium terms (something like a Crusade.) I'll note this is about the only thing that saves IA 5-7 from being completely retarded, but its still contrived as hell.


Page 7

His own cruiser [Bellerophon] was operating with a sekelton crew. His escorts were also under-manned and were suffering increasing reports of malfunctions due to their poor state of repair. They needed an extended period in dock. Only his defence monitors were ready for action, but even these needed extra crew, and their main magazines were not full due to the necessity to maintain regular firing drills. He had just seven ships under his command, which would not be enough.

Condition of the naval force in/around Taros.

Page 7

Lowly ratings aboard any Imperial Navy vessel were unskilled workers, or those with minimal training in a particular area, often as ammunition carriers or fire fighters in damage ocntrol teams. These he could press-gang from anywhere and so he turned ot the Departmento Munitorum's forces deployed on Vraks. Under the conditions of his command, the Rear Admiral had th epower to press manpower as needed,a nd now he exercised that power. His officers and bosuns took teams down to the planet's surface and began rounding up men from the labour corps. When confronted by the Administratum bureaucrats that ran the units, they simply insisted that the Imperial Navy's needs took precedence over the Departmento Munitorum's.
..

soon these new men were under the withering gaze of gunnery team captains or engaged in the thousands of onboard chores that required brute force and muscle rather than skilled. These indentured workers, refered by the regular crewmen as 'landsmen' or 'planetsiders' were the lowliest ranks of the Imperial Navy but thousands of them helped Rear Admiral Rasiak alleviate the worst of his manpower shortages.

Naval impressment. Adding a bit of flavor to 40K since Battlefleet gothic. Of course, considering how.. variable crew complements have become over the years (from tens of thousands for mere escorts to just 20K to run a Emperor class battleship) and the existence of servitor-run warships and all other factors, the reasons for impressment may be less of necessity and more of preference or redundancy (having extra manpower to draw on in emergencies, to run manual stuff if automatic stuff fails, to have lots of troops for boarding actions or ground assault, etc.)

Page 7

The rear Admiral also conducted a thorough inspection of all freighters currently in the Vraks system. A supply convoy was currently engaged in unloading to Vraks' surface, a slow process given the lack of any proper star port facilities.
..
The massive bulk-freighter Izra Mors had almost finished unloading, and he immediately requinsitioned it for service. It was no fighting ship but carried neough guns for its own protection...
...
There were five other freighters also in the system, either inbound or outbound. Of thse, two were considered well enough armed for service - should they be required.

Not an unheard of practice, mentioned in Gothic War (Bfg) and in "Relentless" (the Richard Williams novel). Some vessels seem to double as warships and merchant vessels in emergencies (or are meant to help pad out convoys in general since warships are always less numerous than transports.)

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The other three vessels were judged to be of beyond use, offering practically nothing in firepower.
These three freighters Rasiak ordered stripped of crew and weapons, leaving each with only a skeleton crew of a few volunteers. Then he had them loaded iwth anything explosive or flammable that the fleet's master of Ordnance could lay his hands on, turning each into a huge bomb. Their cargo holds were packed ready to explode, with thier plasma reactor cores prepared to run overpowered and out of control.

Transports are not considered vital enough that in emergencies they won't be made into fire ships (at least, defending planets is more important than transports.) One wonders what explosives they stuffed them with, of course.

Page 8

Behind them would come the defence monitors. These were slow cumbersome vessels, with most of their power systems dedicated to their gunnery rather than engines and manoeuvre thrusters. It would be the monitors that dictated the battleline's speed.

Defence monitors, not much difference from Battlefleet Gothic, but they also are apparently slower than warp-capable transports,

Page 8

She had made contact with a squadron of three ships inbound and their energy signatures confirmed them as of the Infidel class.

The frigate picket manages to identify enemy ships by their energy signatures.

Page 8

Six days later at 054823.M41, Exuo squadorn contactd fourteen different energy signatures as the Chaos fleet by-passed the outer asteroid fields and made best speed sunward for Vraks-Prime. As the frigates turned tail and sped back to the battle line, over-worked thrusters burning at flank speed t out-pace the attackers.

fourteen of the aformentioend (and preumsed similar) thirty+ vessels attakc Vraks. Actually less, since a fair number of that are transports and escorts. What happened to the rest (they were lost in transit, went elsewhere, or whatever) isnt known.

We dont know how far out the asteroid belt is but that seems to be the emgerence point (of course its alos the edge of the Vraks system IIRC)

Page 9

The returning frigates fell into line as the fleet slowly powered away from Vraks, mindful of avoiding the planet's defensive guns, until they were far to the rear. They made painfully slow progress with the monitor gunboats in tow, but Rasiak urged all to maintain their close formation and discipline and stay tight.
..

And so, Rasiak's stately procession itno battle continued, hour after hour, as the enemy fleet closed on Vraks.

It took at least hours for the two fleets to converge. Probably a bit longer, but unlikely to be thousands of gees in this case (even if the monitors are holding the rest of the fleet back.)

Page 9

..Rasiak's makeshift crews came to battle stations. Ratings stacked extra ammunition in the ready lockers at each gun port. Work teams shored up bulkheads and blast doors were sealed to contain the inevitable fires.
..
..the Rear-Admiral alongside Flag-Captain Drost and his command crew stood in silent clam, each engrossed in their own tasks, watching their command screens as the cadre of logisticians routed the flow of technical data to them.

work onboard ship as "battle stations" are called at last.

Page 9

The Lord Bellerophon was a powerful weapon, a cruiser, a mighty ship of the line...
..
Out there in the void, approaching at full power on an intercept course was a ship of an entirely different magnitude altogether. Facing him was a monster, a true leviathan of the deep. almost certainly it wa sa Despoiler class battleship, or at least something very closely related. The Depoilers were almost legend amongst the officers of Battlefleet Obscurus. Some of the largest vessels ever constructed, they carried enough firepower to level cities, as well as squadrons of attack craft, bombers, and assault craft.

Despoiler class mentioned. "levelling cities" is considered impressive (although again, size of city is never specified so.. go figure.)

Page 9

Five vessels, led by the Despoiler class Battleship Anarchy's Heart, had manoeuvred to swing around his battleline's port ship. A larger concentration of nine enemy vessels of varying sizes and classes, with the Styx class cruiser blood Dawn would pass by him off the starboard side.

A more detailed disposition of the enemy fleet.

Page 9

The Lord Bellerophon's bridge tracked the torpedoes as they closed in. The first missed the Anarchy's Heart, whislt the second detonated against her void shields to no avail. The third was destroyed by defensive fire, whilst the fourth malfunctioned and detonated in open space. The fifth torpedo narrowly missed an Iconoclast destroyer, part of the battlehsip's escort squadron, the small ship nimble enough to swing hard out of the torpedo's pathThe sixth provoked a sudden cheer form the bridge crew as it impacted against a second Iconoclast. The torpedo's internal logis engine making the last second corrections to guide it directly into the swerving target. The torpedo's melta warhead detonated with a terrible force, overwhelming the small vessel's shield generators in a flash and tearing a great rend through the vessel's aft quarters. The escort was venting plasma, a sure sign that one of her reactors had been breached.
..
..soon her plasma reactors would detonate and the ship would be torn into space wreckage.

Torpedo assault. Note the guided torpedoes, the melta warhead, and the fact torpedoes in Imperial Armour are stopped by void shields.

Page 10

The Lord Bellerophon's void shield generators scramed their defiance as waves of broadside volleys pounded the cruiser. Still well beyond her own effective range to respond, the lunar class cruiser was taking a pounding. The energy blasts of laser turrets flickered through space, plasma bolts bursting in sun-bright flares along the length of the ship. Deep within, void shield capacitors were overloading, bursting apart in a shower of sparks and molten steel as they attempted to contain the enemy's firepower, starting small fires that soon spread. As yet the damage to the hull was minimal.

Bellerophon takes bombardment from enemy fleet, especially the Batlteship (which seems to have laser and plasma weapons, mainly.)

Page 10

Target icons swamped the bridge's surveyor screens. Every gun and every turret onboard the Lord Bellerophon ws in action and the ship rattled and shook with each volley.
...
On the gun decks the orders of master gunners and captains could no longer be heard above the thunder of macro-cannons and scream of high-energy lance batteries.
..
Under the lash of their bosuns, the green crews toiled hard, hauling the guns back into position after each recoil sent it skidding backwards. Ammunition, shells so large they required ten men to carry them, were hauled into the breaches. The air became thick with the noxious fumes of firing. It was hot and the temperature was rising as power packs overheated with the strain and gun barrels began to glow. Cooling systems were overheating. Swabbing teams worked to cool each gun between shots, the better to aid accuracy.

Macro cannon shells that "ten men need to carry" is not very massive, unless we're talking extensive augmetic enhancement or some sort of mechanical aid (either are possible). Maybe half a ton to a ton, which is actually smaller than ground attack munitions (super heavy or bigger artillery platforms can throw shells hundreds or thousands of kilos in weight, easily.
And remember at least some defence turret on a starship is larger than a super heavy as a rule.)

Page 10

The Anarchy's Heart had raked the batteline, its firepower stripped shields and buckled armour as it passed. The Sword class Exuo-Four-One had been crippled by the enemy batlteship's batteries. she was adrift and helpless, raging fires burning on all her dekcs, the bridge crew wiped out by repeated lance hits that had torn away the superstructure. Two fo the monitors were also gone. The first's plasma reactors detonating in a sudden all-consuming explosion that had burned like a new sun, if only briefly, before leaving an expanding cloud of dust in its wake. The second had been pounded into silence by enemy guns and was now a drifitng wreck. Both the armed freighters had miraculously passed through the gauntlet, but neither was unscathed. Void shields were gone, decks were alight and casualties were heavy but both were still in the fight. The Izra Mors had lost three plasma reactors to enemy bombing attacks and was operating on minimal power. With manoeuvre thrusters disabled she was a sitting duck...

More battle. Multiple plasma reactors on the freighter, sword class frigate (form the 3 man Exuo squadron) obliterated rapidly by Battleship (no shock there), etc.

Page 10

He [Bellerophon] guns had damagd the Chaos heavy transport Aharon's Bane and destroyed another of the Iconoclast destroyers. Two port gun decks had been immolated and the fire teams were struggling to bring the blazes under control. A Primary communications tower had also been torn away. Most of the void hsield generators had been overloadeda nd were shut down to prevent them from exploding. One plasma reactor had also been read its final rites after a macro-cannon salvo had penetrated the number two engine room.
..

She also had two hull breaches and sevevral crew dekcs had been sealed against the hard vaccuum of space after the Anarchy's Heart's lance turrets had scored direct hits.

Damage of the Bellerophon.

Page 10

Battlefleet Scarus had directed the closest battle-worthy force to Vraks. Cruiser group Mahzur, under Rear Admiral Titus Mahzur, had arrived not far behind the Traitor fleet. Led by the Gothic class Consul Thracii, with the Dominator class Orion and the ancient grand cruiser Covenanter in support, as well as a squadorn of escorts, the cruisers were now racing towards Vraks and the battle.
..
The first to detect them had been the rearmost Chaos cruisers and they had taken immediate steps ot intercept.

Makeup of at least one kind of cruiser group. That they arrived close on the heels of the Chaos fleet suggests that a matter of hours have passed since the Chaos fleet arrived in-system, arguably.

Page 10

Mahzur's aim was to cut off the enemy fleet's approach to Vraks and prevent any planetary landing. He had his work cut out for him, his ships were flat out at flank speed, straining their reactors...

Suggests 40K starships don't normally run at 100% maximum power (safety margins, conserving power, less strain on systems, etc.) which is reasonable.

Page 10

The Slaughter class cruiser Fallen Sun and the Devastation class Ferrum Invictus swung hard about, the Ferrum Invictus launching her attack craft and opening fire with long range batteries.
..
He ordered his escort squadron and the Orion to engage the enemy and hold them off, whilst the other two cruisers raced for Vraks...

More of the Chaos and Imperial forces involved in battle around Taros.

Page 11

The massive transport (Aharon's Bane) once a merchan tvessel but long ago captured, was packed full of thousands of tropos ready to land on Vraks. tens of thousands of howling Chaos worshippers, mutants, beastmen, renegades and the wretched scum of the galaxy were packed into the holds.

Merchant vessel capable of carrying "tens of thousands" of troops.

Page 11

Already appraoching orbit the massive vessel [Bane again] could not take evasive manoeuvres...

..
The fire ship hit the Aharon's Bane in the stern quarters. The merchant vessel's hull buckled and collapsed as the fire ship impacted, crushing decks and tearing a rend deep into the rearmost engine rooms. Seconds later the explosives detonated in an almighty explosion that tore the reare of the transport apart, scattering debris into orbit as the ship's plasma reactors suddenly vapourised, adding to the destruction. Far below on Vraks, Imperial Guardsmen watched as a sudden bright new star flickered into existence and burned fiercely above their battlefields.
..
In high orbit the big transport was crippled and listing, wildly out of control with no drives to counter the ship's momentum - critically damaged by the collison. Already caught in Vraks' gravity well she started to plugne planetwards.
..
Was her super-sturcture still strong enough? coould she survive the stresses of atmospheric entry, or would she simply burn-up and be torn apart.
..
It tore through the atmosphere, trailing flames, but the ship's armoured prow remained intact and its thick ceramite shielding kept the vessel behind safe.
...
despite being terribly damaged, the bridge crew regained some control, by some god-granted mireacle they found the power to break the vessel's wild descent. The ground was rushing up to meet the Aharon's Bane, but she was a vessel built to withstand the rigours of travel through the warp, and her hull was old, but very strong.

Ramming attack in or around "high orbit" of the planet by fire ship. The exploding fire ship's effects can't be insanely powerful in that proximity (eg probably not TT range or more) in or around orbit of a planet without significant effects happening (then again, how much more Taros can be fucked up after a decade of war is also debatable, the planet was hardly a paradise to begin with) but we're talking about two transports anyhow, so it may not matter as much.

It is interesitng that the Bane survived the collision, explosion and passage through the atmosphere to collide (intact) with the surface even if it was a relatively controlled descent at the end.

Page 11
- Battle of Vraks:
1 Chaos force (Anarchy's Heart, Aharon's bane, Iconoclast Squadron Gorefeasters)
Cruiser group Mahzur - Orion, Covennanter, Consul Thracii, Patrol squadorn Naris (3 escorts)
other chaos force( Blood Dawn, Fallen Sun, Ferrum Invictus, 3 Armed Freighters, 1 squadron Damnatus - escorts maybe?)
Vraks defnece force: Lord Bellerophon, Parol Squadron Exuo (3 Sword frigates), Auxila defence squadron (3 monitors), 2 armed freighters, Izra Mors, and 3 fire ships.[/quote]

Page 12

The Aharon's Bane impacted with the ground close ot the Chaylia Plateau, tearing a great gouge in Vraks' surface, throwing up a dust cloud that oculd be seen half way round the planet. Like a meteor strike the Aharon's Bane punched a crater into VRaks' surface, grinding along on its belly until it came to rest in a steaming, twisted wreckage of steel, girders and bent plating, lik ethe boens of some ancient behemoth sea crature. The transport was surrounded by a pall of dust too thick to see through. For kilometres across the planet's surface, the ship left its scattered remains. Many within had been crushed by the crash landing, but many more had not.

Starship impact with the surface of the planet. because we need more fucked up conditions on the ground for the Krieg.

Page 12

..the Anarchy's Heart manoeuvred into low orbit, and was even now casting hundreds of drop ships and landing craft down onto Vraks.
..
Waves of Dreadclaw assault pods rained down onto Vraks, carrying bands of Chaos Space MArines to the war below.

Hint of the scale of the Chaos assault on Taros.

Page 12

Supported by the Sword class frigates of Patrol Squadron Naris, the cruiser traded broadsides iwth the enemy, big guns pounding away at the enemy's shields whilst Squadrons of attakc craft scrambled and launched to intercept approaching enemy fighters and bombers.
..
The Orion saw tow of her escorts destroyed. The first took a salvo of powerful laser blasts in a direct hit amidships. The lances blasted clean through the frigate, tearing it in two. The second was destroyed as she closed with the Ferrum Invictus, bravely firing until the last, as squadrons of enemy bombers mercilessly pounded her hull, until it was breached on every deck, many of her crew were sucked out into the void, leaving her as another drifting hulk. The Orion herself had been breached in several plces and burst cooling pipes ont he starboard hangars had filled the decks with superheated steam.

Cruiser group detachment vs two Chaos cruisers.

Page 12

The Orion and her surviving frigate escort powered down their active augur systems and engines and silenced their guns. AS the Chaos ships continued to seek their target, the Orion plotted an evasion course and sort refuge further out of system.

I want to say "there is no stealth in space", but its probable the ships have some magic cloaking system (or they at least need one for them to go silent like that.)

PAge 12

Along the corridors and acorss the cavernous main holds the battle raged for an hour.. [onboard the Izra Mors]

Indication of the length of time of ship battle anyhow.

Page 12

They [the enemy] still had four capital rated ships still in the fight, including a battleship and heavy cruiser.
..

The consul Thracii was entering a kililng field, thick with enemy guns including those of the defence laser silos on Vraks. Soon the cruiser was buffeted by inocming fire and taking hits from all sides. The Anarchy's Heart soon had her biggest lance batteries and turrets locked-on to the approaching flagship and was pounding away. The [i[Consul Thracii's armour prow shook under the impact, armour plates feet thick were being burnt away by the enregy beams as they smashed into the Consul Thracii's prow.
..

They wouldn't make it to their target, alreadys most of the shield generators had been destroyed.

They didn't make their ramming run on the battleship. They apparently got close enough to orbit for escape pods to be caught up in gravity, (seconds to minutes of bombardment?) but were disabled/crippled/ anyhow. Indicative of the durability of cruisers even against superior firepower.

Page 12

They had lost the Consul Thracii, the largest capitol ship to be destroyed. With her had also gone four sword class frigates, two defence monitors and the heavy frieghter Izra Mors. The three freighters ocnverted to fire ships had also been lost.

..
The Lord Bellerophonh ad surivved, but barely and would need years to be re-fitted and made ready fo rduty again. Likewise the Orion was heavily damaged.

Chaos side lost the Bane and at least four raiders. A grimdark and uneven match all things considered.

Page 12

In all, tens of thousands of new troops would land on Vraks, screaming their insane prayers and liturgies..

Khornate Berserkers, apparently some Black Legion (Lt of Abbadon) and some Iron Warriors are included in that. Oh and some Nurgle warbands. I guess Tzeentch and Slaanesh couldn't be bothered.

Page 14

Encircling the Fortress of Vraks along a front of 150 km, the inner defences was no single line of trenches, but a zone of heavy defences up to 8 km deep. It was thicker tagain than the previous two defence lines..

Width and depth of the last defensive line. I believe the previous two lines were mentioned of similar depth.

Page 14

Ever since Vraks founding as an armoury world and the establishment of the Departmento Munitorum storage facilities, the Imperium had been building defences to protect their valuable war materiels. Subsequent planetary governors and Administratum overssers had continually added to the defenses... and as more and more undeground warehouses were constructed, so more defences were deemed necesary.

Good thing for the Imperium those defneses didnt include orbital defnse assets or any sort of air power. Seems alomst.. contrived doesn't it?

Page 14

The defences themselves consisted of well-planned and sighted trench lines, bunkers, pillboxes, gun emplacements, hardened artillery firing pits reinforced with sandbaged redoubts and supporting positions. Underneath were labyrinthine bunker complexes and shelters, buried safe from enemy artillery. all had interconnecting fields of fire to turn each approach into a killing zone. As before, the defence line was further protected by belts of razorwire, thousands of tank traps and dense minefields. Unlike the previous two defensive belts, this one was supported by Vraks' large arsenal of defence laser silos. The defence lasers' primary role was to protect the citadel and starport from direct assault from orbit. These huge lasers could target and damage enemy spacecraft, but could also be used as heavy artillery on the ground. The defence lasers' range was such that they could easily engage the Krieg attackers and the defence laser bunkers would be targets for the Krieg heavy artillery, but each had been constructed to protect it from an orbital bobmardment so it was likely any land based aritllery would be powreful enough to destroy them.

Defences of the last line. The bit about the defence lasers being able to target on the ground is interesting, considering they're supposed to be buried. It may indicate that the emittors can raise up high enough to allow at least some off-axis firing. Given that they didnt' have reach until now, the emitters could only reach maybe 4-5 meters aboveground or so (if that) given the aforementioned distances. Alternately, the "Defence laser" bits are of varying size/calibre - after all a number of sources have indicated defence lasers of different sizes and constructions (some turreted, some fixed axis buried in the ground)

If the same, then they have to be able to dial down the yields regardless of what one things 40K starship yields are, since anything above sub nuclear yields would be utterly devastating to ground forces in range (regarless if one argues kilotons, megatons, gigatons or whatever.)

Also, the fact that the silos are immune to conventional bombardment platforms (Earthshakers, Bombards, etc.) also suggests orbital bombardment yields (and hence defence lasers themselves) should be greater.

Page 14

Only the inexhaustible might of the Imperium with its endless resources of fighting men and war-supplies could have considered attacking Vraks' defences head on, and evne the seemingly unstoppable war machine of the Imperial Guard had taken the best part of a decade, at the cost of 4,000,000 dead (and many more wounded), to atter its way to the inner defence line.

at least 8 million men (troopers?) involved in Vraks assault. This is total over the current 10 year period, including replacements.

Page 14

What happened when they [88th Army) ran out of time nobody yet knew. Most likely it would mean failure and defeat, because the intensity of the war would no longer be maintained, supply priority would slip, regiments might be withdrawn and re-deploed and so the prospect of ultimate victory would recede, leaving the 88th Army trpaped in a war they could not win.

Politics again. Politics is a big factor in the "effectiveness" of the military forces since politics affects resource allocation and resupply (much like with Taros.) This means that the effectivenss of the Guard or Navy can be variable for reasons beyond strictly military ones. Again you can smell thematic contrivance.

Page 14

The 18 siege regiments of the 88th Army needed time to rebuild their strength for the new offensive that would see them tear into the enemy again.

number of regiments (currently) in 8th Army. I believe one or two might have been virutally wiped out by now. Still all Krieg too.

Page 17

..the secure dungeon facilities on Vraks were used to provide temporary housing for Inquisitorial prisoners and tithed psykersf rom nearby worlds awaiting transfer to the League of Black Ships.

Vraks was a holding area for psyker tithes.

Page 17

This Rogue Psyker has been subjected to cybernetic implantation and equipped to increase and control its powers and allow its masters to control them. Clearly visible are the drug reservoirs for an auto-injector rig designed to carry a cocktail of powerful stimulatns and chem-crafted psi-boosters directly into the Psyker's bloodstream analyiss of recovered samples has noted Slaught, Ghostfire tincture, human blood plasma and other as yet unidentified substances in the mixture. Also shown are spinal fused Aetheric wave-spars designed to channel and bleed away excess energies along with crude warp-conduction bracers and a totemic psi-focus crafted from a severed human head (probably of another psyker.) These devices enalbe the Rogue Psyker to more easily ofcus its powers into a destructive form.
Many similar devices have been tested for use on Schola PSykana sanctioned psykers in the Emperor's serivce, but found to be too unpredictable or to boost powres to dangerously uncontrollable levels (Use of most such devices is now proscribed by Inquisitorial order.)

That they managed this, proscribed or not, on Vraks is quite interesting. Does the Munitorum routinely keep proscribed materials on hand jus tin case?

Page 17

It is likely that as well as being used as an expression of vile belief, these [chaos] symbols served some definite purpose, most liekly to further increase the PSyker's power and also to invoke and possibly contain daemonic energies drawn from the warp.
..
.. its use became increasingly widespread as the conflict wore on, appearing increasingly not just inscribed on the skin of these malign creatures, but used as votive markings by the renegade rank and file...

I wondre it the rank and file gain any benefit.

Page 17

.Unsanctioned by Imperial conditioning...
..
..the Rogue Pskyers in the Vraksian renegade forces displayed a bewildering variety of tainted powers and their mere presence was often accompanied by psycho-kinetic and electromagnetic disturbances, freak temperature anomalies and other strange phenomena.
..
Some are seen to leveitate above the battlefield, burning their foes with tainted lightning or boiling blood, others are able to invigorate their allies iwth unholy fury, while some transformed into seething mosnters themselves, or were even able to cloud the minds and cursh the wills of the loyalist troops, turning soldiers against their comrades with their malign influence.

Powers of the Rogue Pskyers, as well as "side effects." - Temperature anomalies are things like the "psychic activity causing frost to form on stuff" when used.

Page 17

This psyker is carrying the severed head as a totem, in the belief that the power of a former psyker can be harnessed and used to contribute its power ot the current bearer. Such beliefs are not uncommon amongst the primititve societies fo teh galaxy and many remain in wide usage despite the preachings of the Missionarus Galaxia missionaries.
Many psykers also find their powers are enhanced by the use of a psi-ofcus, a single device (often a staff) that aids concentration whislt the psychic energies are being channeled through their mind. Much Schola Psykana training involves mastering the psi-focus. This totemic head may also be acting as just such a focus.

Much like Eisenhorn's magic staff, I suppose.

Page 17

This psyker acocunted for numerous casualties during the heavy fighting...
..before being finally brought down by concentrated hellgun fire.

How much hellgun fire? And how many troopers?

Page 18

In all 360 guns would be firing, but many were low on ammuniton and in a dubious state of repair after constant use in recent weeks, with worn barrels and failing recuperation pistons a common fault..

..

As they advanced, supporting heavy weapons such as autocannons and heavy stubbers, would fire a stream of rounds high over their heads to plunge down upon enemy positions to the rear, with the aim of suppressing enemy heavy weapons positions.

360 artillery guns for an assault, and indirect fire (long range fire) with heavy projectile weapons. Note heavy bolters aren't included, perhaps suggesting their muzzle velocities are too high to allow for "plugning" fire type attacks.

Page 18

In the line stood the 468th regiment's 31st, 33rd 53rd 54th and 68th infantry companies.

At least 68 companies in the regiment.

Page 18

Looking out over the lip of a trench through his periscope Captain Fodor, commanding the 54th company, watchd as his objective was shrouded in flames, smoke and dust.

Periscope.

Page 20

The second Macharius attempted to find a route forwards but enemy heavy artilery shell landed close by. The force of the explosion tore its right hand tracks away, leaving the armoured behemoth immobilised in no-man's land.

Macharius tank disabled by nearby Artillery strike. Not sure how "heavy" it was or from what kind of platform.

Page 20

A stray bullet ricocheted off the tank and hit his helmet, knocking him off balance - but he was otherwise uninjured.

Krieg helmet turns aside ricochet. Again its their only armour, so at least it does some good.

Page 20

..the Captain watched as the remaining Macharius scored a direct hit on an enemy bunker, blasting the reinforced ferrocrete into dust and breaching its walls.

Macharius volley blasts man-sized hole in bunker wall.

Page 20

Fodor raced for cover, sliding into a shallow crater where five Krieg guardsmen already lay dead, bodies torn to shreds by shrapnel.
..
Calling for his vox operator he saw his aide flung into the air, his leg severed after stepping on a mine.

Effect of a mine, and a shell from unknown weapon big enough for 6 krieg bodies to lie in comfortably (5-6 metres at least, 10 or more probably?)
Page 20

Already breached by the Macharius' shells, Fodor could see enemy figures still holding out inside.
.

When he was in range he called forward a squad flamethrower to blast the bunkr's breach, then he ordered everybody else to follow him and charge the breach.

Again, Macharius shell barrage was able to put holes in wall big enough for someone to get through, suggesting 1-2 meter diameter. If we knew what kind of shell did it (HE or anti tank) we might be able to calc something. if HE and a 2 m diamter crater was put in the wall.. maybe 8 kg of TNT? Not impossible for a large HE tank shell.
Bunker was taller than man sized though, and the thickness was greater than that, since the barrage must have mostly been stopped by the wall (else thoe behind it would be fragged.)

Page 21

Immediately, Fodor jumped up and rushed the blazing breach, running headlong through the flames, emptying his laspistol as he stormed into the bunker's smoke-filled interior.

Again hole in bunker wall is roughly man sized. Also laspistol implied to be emptied in fairly short order, although we dont know how many shots it started with either.

Page 21

The air crackled and fizzed iwth the impact of lance batteries, in places scorching the rock to black glass iwth the intensity of their heat. Macro-cannon shells tore great holes in the planet's surface, the splintering crash of each round rending the rocks and leaving a thick layer of cordite and dust.
..
Trenches were destroyed in single hits, heavy artillery guns were lfipped like a child's toy, left smashed beyond repair.
..
He saw a great yellow streak of flame race across the stormy sky as a huge shell tore through the atmosphere and streaked earthwards. The distant explosion raised a towering mushroom cloud before the reverberating crash of its detonation hit him.

(tactical?) Orbital bombardment by Chaos forces and the effects. At least someone thought of this, even if we're midway through the series by now.

Page 21

The sky was full of falling assault pods, plunging through the rainstorm, riding the lightnign down onto Vraks.

Probably indicative of how crazy the CSM are, since this is something loyalist Space Marines would almost never do (pprelim bombardment first, THEN drop down. Something nearly like this was done in Assault on Black Reach by Sicarius and the Ultramarines and that was considered crazy.)

Page 22

The first Traitor Space Marine to leap into the breach was annihilate dby a meltagun blast at point-blank range that turned its armour into a charred and smoking slag pile but more soon followed.

Assuming iron composition and 200-300 kg or so, you'd get several hundred megajoules in a fairly short period of time (no more than a few seconds)

Page 23

The sudden Chaos attacks had thrown the Krieg regiments into confusion and transformed the nature of the siege of Vraks. A slow, static war of attrition had suddenly becomea more fluid battle, wit the enemy able to strike deep behind the lines. The single long frontline was no longer the only battlefield. Although the sudden attacks caused much damage, as yet the reinforcements did not possess the heavy equipment and weapons to smash the Krieg regiments' defensive positions.
..
Over the coming weeks more heavy equipment would arrive from orbit, and the Chaos forces could look to make more permanant gains.

Krieg having to react to the change of warfare on the ground with the introduction of CSM forces. Considering their obsession with WW1 type tactics.. I'd guess this isn't bad (could be better maybe?) Also this is 'reaction' by IA standards, which one must bear in mind.

Page 23

The loss of the Vraks system left the 88th siege army stranded iwth its supply line severed. The replacement men, guns, ammunition, fuel and stores needed to maintain the momentum of the war were all ferried to Vraks from off-planet, and whilst the current stockpiles were still vast, it did mean these oculd no longer be replenished.

Implied that without resupply they'd be fucked over. Again why they are hauling shit from tens of thousands of LY away...

Page 23

Alarmed that after ten years of brutal war the missio non Vraks was in danger of total failure, an investigation was commissioned to determine what had gone wrong.
..
News of the impending defeat must be reported to the Lord of the Departmento Munitorum on Terra nad from him it would eventually reach the High Lords of Terra themselves. Their wrath for failure and a squandering of valuable resources would see many careers ruined, and many officers banished to penal regiments or dispatched ot face the growing Tyranid menace on the Eastern Fringes. But political intriguing to save face and careers did nothing to save the Krieg regiments facing annihilation on Vraks.

Politics again. At least we can note that the Imperium hates leaders who needlessly squander men, even regiments designed to be "Wasted" like the Kriegers. Politics of course saves some offers but dooms others. And yet.. still contrivance given we're into the second book before someone takes notice of this.

I'm assuming the "Easetern fringe" bit is meant ot be a 40K version of similar events in WW2 (which IIRC were also used as punishment duties.)

Page 23

..and worse still, alongside the insane warriors of Chaos stalked many great war machines, amongst them Titans of LEgio Vulcanum.

Chaos titans apparently made it to the ground as well. Whether they crahs landed or were dropped I dont remember. Its scarily impressive either way.

Page 23

The 1st korps commanding officers, accompanied by their commissar advisors, climbed a low rise from which to gain a grandstand view of the coming engagement. They looked out with their surveyors across the battlefield that was already barren and broken...

Again officers using portable surveyors to observe a battle.

[Simon_Jester]

Naval impressment. Adding a bit of flavor to 40K since Battlefleet gothic. Of course, considering how.. variable crew complements have become over the years (from tens of thousands for mere escorts to just 20K to run a Emperor class battleship) and the existence of servitor-run warships and all other factors, the reasons for impressment may be less of necessity and more of preference or redundancy (having extra manpower to draw on in emergencies, to run manual stuff if automatic stuff fails, to have lots of troops for boarding actions or ground assault, etc.)

This is a factor in real life. A lot of things that theoretically can be automated on a warship won't be, because unless you have full AI (the Imperium doesn't) you can't count on the machinery being smart enough to react and fix itself in situations where a human being would know what to do immediately. And when you're being shot at, that happens a lot.

Not an unheard of practice, mentioned in Gothic War (Bfg) and in "Relentless" (the Richard Williams novel). Some vessels seem to double as warships and merchant vessels in emergencies (or are meant to help pad out convoys in general since warships are always less numerous than transports.)

A huge mass of armed merchantmen are used to destroy a Chaos capital ship in one of the Cain novels, actually; I thought that was interesting. Supposedly the battleship was lured into low orbit where it was in easy range of this huge mass of lightly armed ships and chewed apart. I think that's how it went.

Khornate Berserkers, apparently some Black Legion (Lt of Abbadon) and some Iron Warriors are included in that. Oh and some Nurgle warbands. I guess Tzeentch and Slaanesh couldn't be bothered.

It's trench warfare. Too head-bangy to suit a bunch of plot-fetishists like the Tzeentchians. And Slaanesh... well, where's the fun in trench warfare? You basically have to be Ernst Jünger to enjoy it.

If the same, then they have to be able to dial down the yields regardless of what one things 40K starship yields are, since anything above sub nuclear yields would be utterly devastating to ground forces in range (regarless if one argues kilotons, megatons, gigatons or whatever.)

Maybe they're sticking a mirror into the path of the beam and firing at reduced power? Or, essentially, building some similar sort of optics setup. That would explain both the ability to fire above ground (stick up a periscope and shine the laser through it) and the limit on how much power you can deliver without blowing apart the weapon.

Page 22

The first Traitor Space Marine to leap into the breach was annihilate dby a meltagun blast at point-blank range that turned its armour into a charred and smoking slag pile but more soon followed.

Assuming iron composition and 200-300 kg or so, you'd get several hundred megajoules in a fairly short period of time (no more than a few seconds)

I don't think "iron within, iron without" can be taken as evidence for a versus comparison...

Politics again. At least we can note that the Imperium hates leaders who needlessly squander men, even regiments designed to be "Wasted" like the Kriegers. Politics of course saves some offers but dooms others. And yet.. still contrivance given we're into the second book before someone takes notice of this.

Kriegers are supposed to be expendable, not wastable.

As to the rest- my impression is that Imperial governance is very uneven and (again) partly feudal. Any given crisis is almost entirely entrusted to whoever is put in charge of handling it, personally. Oversight is usually very minimal, except for permanent liaison positions like commissars. And since many commissars are bloodthirsty idiots, they're not good at restraining bloodthirsty idiocy on the part of general-level officers.

[PainRack]

I didn't read the first two IA books regarding the conflict, but was there any reasons given why additional IG forces from nearby planets weren't routed to the world? I know that the Inquisition ultimately sanctioned and led centralised, non Krieg forces to hit the world, even as politics continued to screw things up by withdrawing a siege army and a war of assasins on Imperial messengers.

I mean, a throw away line about how forces were tied up in other campaigns/garrison requirements or something?

This is a factor in real life. A lot of things that theoretically can be automated on a warship won't be, because unless you have full AI (the Imperium doesn't) you can't count on the machinery being smart enough to react and fix itself in situations where a human being would know what to do immediately. And when you're being shot at, that happens a lot.

Its not just that. Human beings are there for damage control and to stand in for damaged equipment/loss of crew. Its why even for the highly automated ships, like the new frigates in the RSN have a larger crew than is strictly neccessary.

There's also stuff like crew fatigue and preventing mistakes, Lonestar made the above comment before regarding automation on warships.

A huge mass of armed merchantmen are used to destroy a Chaos capital ship in one of the Cain novels, actually; I thought that was interesting. Supposedly the battleship was lured into low orbit where it was in easy range of this huge mass of lightly armed ships and chewed apart. I think that's how it went.

There were also Imperial capital warship present, although I think the escorts weren't.

[Black Admiral]

Not an unheard of practice, mentioned in Gothic War (Bfg) and in "Relentless" (the Richard Williams novel). Some vessels seem to double as warships and merchant vessels in emergencies (or are meant to help pad out convoys in general since warships are always less numerous than transports.)

A huge mass of armed merchantmen are used to destroy a Chaos capital ship in one of the Cain novels, actually; I thought that was interesting. Supposedly the battleship was lured into low orbit where it was in easy range of this huge mass of lightly armed ships and chewed apart. I think that's how it went.

From The Traitor's Had; a Desolator-class battleship, after taking heavy damage from an Armageddon-class battlecruiser's torpedoes (knocking out its own torpedoes & dorsal weapons array), ends up swarmed under by ~1,000 or so merchant ships (although the Armageddon-class is the one to finish it off) (ref, pgs. 720-721 of Ciaphas Cain: Hero of the Imperium).

[Simon_Jester]

This is a factor in real life. A lot of things that theoretically can be automated on a warship won't be, because unless you have full AI (the Imperium doesn't) you can't count on the machinery being smart enough to react and fix itself in situations where a human being would know what to do immediately. And when you're being shot at, that happens a lot.

Its not just that. Human beings are there for damage control and to stand in for damaged equipment/loss of crew. Its why even for the highly automated ships, like the new frigates in the RSN have a larger crew than is strictly neccessary.

...That's what I said. Admittedly, badly. Darn.

A huge mass of armed merchantmen are used to destroy a Chaos capital ship in one of the Cain novels, actually; I thought that was interesting. Supposedly the battleship was lured into low orbit where it was in easy range of this huge mass of lightly armed ships and chewed apart. I think that's how it went.

There were also Imperial capital warship present, although I think the escorts weren't.

[thinks]

Yes, but the merchantmen were definitely presented as being relevant to the process of killing the battleship.

If anyone wants to play calc games you could probably use that to get some idea of the spread in power levels between the largest normal-ish warships, and the smallest, lightest-gunned ships that qualify as being meaningfully "armed."

[Zinegata]

What's more, we've learned from 5th edition that more than half (or in some cases close to 2/3 or 3/4) of the existing Chapters (Each of which is supposed to govern/control a fair number of worlds on their own as protectorates and shit) are descended from the Smurfs and are supposed to be utterly and totally devoted to Calgar and the UM and the ideals of the SL and all that shit that makes it seem like they're still a fucking legion.

Given all those facts, it stands to reason that a fair chunk of the Imperium (at least if you hold to the 'one million worlds and not a world more' belief.) is made up of Ultramarines, quite possibly the majority, and that each of those worlds is, to some degree or another, a reflection of Ultramar, Guilliman, etc.

I shall now step back and watch the rage make everyone's heads explode. Bear in mind that this is just ONE interpretation, but its certainly a valid one and you can find plenty of evidence to back it up. I like it perversely for the anti-grimdark tone it takes.

Well, like you said it's an interpretation, and I'm kinda not sold that all of the Chapters descended from the Smurfs are devoted to Calgar and run little fiefs of their own. Simon has already pointed to the Iron Snakes as one of the counter-examples.

But that being said, being an Ultramarine world may not necessarily result in it become an advanced and highly civilized world. Guilliman actually seemed to take great care in managing his worlds, so that they don't undergo sweeping changes that result in a lot of blood and tears. Instead, he's much more of a coalition builder. He tries to get the natives to "buy in" to his system (i.e. making the T'vanti his allies, in a flashback in KNF) - often resulting in them retaining their local customs and culture - but integrating them into the greater Imperium as a whole by making sure they get trade routes that make sense.

So while you might have several thousand "UM-style" worlds throughout the Imperium, not all of them may turn out to be shining examples of civilization.

[Simon_Jester]

If they're governed roughly as competently as the Ultramarines do, they'd probably experience significant economic growth over the millenia and become pretty nice places. Think about the Salamanders' homeworld, which is populated and industrialized about as well as is possible given the inherently inhospitable landscape.

By and large, where Space Marine chapters rule over an unpleasant death world (and many do) it's because they're engaged in a lot of chest-beating about how this produces the ULTIMATE WARRIORS to use as stock for making Space Marines. Of course, the Ultramarines make a joke out of that...

[PainRack]

Rites of battle proclaim that many chapters rule of their home world are distant, and that many chapters prefer to keep their recruiting stock as "pure" as possible, although it seems that its applying this to the medieval, feral or death worlds that many of the Chapters homeworlds are.


The rulebook describes these worlds as bastion of orders, and they're definitely better off than non Space Marine worlds, what with an elite force of Space Marines guarding them and surrounding space. One can assume with the security this force brings, trade and the prosperity it brings can flourish. Similarly, the industry that fuels a Space Marine force, along with the technical expertise brought by the TechMarines have knockon effects along the rest of industry. Certainly, having a spacedock capable of repairing severe damage to a Strike cruiser and the supplies routed to a Space Marine force by the Mechanicus would useful.... These ships, be they Chartist, Mechanicus or Marine ships transporting the Land Raiders/Thunderhawks from forge worlds could easily carry other technical goods, and they would also promote trade as worlds sell these ship goods and other services.
If nothing else, they ensure that ships are travelling to the world. Just look at Greenland after the Viking stopped sending ships to them.

And as a Chapter Master, it would make sense to develop these worlds economically, so that you could increase the bartering power you have with the Adept Mechanicus to supply you with more Land Raiders and Battle barges.

of course, this only has implications if the world isn't a Feral world, which as Simon indicates, many Marine chapters seem to adore......
Hell, as an Imperium adminstrater, I would love to set up a Marine chapter on those worlds. They become useful as a source of serfs and marine recruits, they are now well protected by superhumans encased in ceramite with bolters as opposed to spear weilding savages, you don't lose any actual political power(I assume governship over these worlds would be as appealing as a posting to Antartica)....

[Simon_Jester]

Rites of battle proclaim that many chapters rule of their home world are distant, and that many chapters prefer to keep their recruiting stock as "pure" as possible, although it seems that its applying this to the medieval, feral or death worlds that many of the Chapters homeworlds are.

That was sort of my point. This is one of the reasons I don't think it pays to overestimate the Marines' power, influence, and ability to hold the Imperium together on their own- so many of them have this obsessive warrior-ethos that it impedes their ability to govern even a single planet responsibly.

[Sea Skimmer]

Encircling the Fortress of Vraks along a front of 150 km, the inner defences was no single line of trenches, but a zone of heavy defences up to 8 km deep. It was thicker tagain than the previous two defence lines..[/quote]

Width and depth of the last defensive line. I believe the previous two lines were mentioned of similar depth.[/quote]

Yeah. This means the area of the interior is only about 800km square. That’s somewhat larger then Hawthorne Army Depot which is the largest ammunition storage facility on the planet, and not that densely packed, but it sure isn’t impressive for a facility we are told is so very important. Sure, it may have many underground levels but that also suggests its one absurdly dense target. 8km remains silly. I’m sure the author thought it was a vast depth; but in reality we’d expect a regiment or brigade in the cold war to cover that much depth alone in open land. I suppose it gets a partial pass since it’s merely one of three lines… but of supposedly of an uber fortress built with unlimited time and materials with great mobile reserves it is unimpressive. Course they have huge artillery pieces with 15km range so things are massively screwed up.

360 artillery guns for an assault, and indirect fire (long range fire) with heavy projectile weapons. Note heavy bolters aren't included, perhaps suggesting their muzzle velocities are too high to allow for "plugning" fire type attacks.

For how big of an assault? This number seems very puny for millions of men in action.

Again, Macharius shell barrage was able to put holes in wall big enough for someone to get through, suggesting 1-2 meter diameter. If we knew what kind of shell did it (HE or anti tank) we might be able to calc something. if HE and a 2 m diamter crater was put in the wall.. maybe 8 kg of TNT? Not impossible for a large HE tank shell.
Bunker was taller than man sized though, and the thickness was greater than that, since the barrage must have mostly been stopped by the wall (else thoe behind it would be fragged.)

HESH is most effective for wall beaching among ammunition types if the wall is anything like concrete. HESH would tend to punch something like a clean hole through a wall rather than of progressively deeper crater. The US Army standard for a breach hole is ~1.3m diameter and can be blown by two 105mm HEP (same thing as HESH just US name) shells. Breaking the rebar is a much bigger problem then blowing out the concrete.

[PainRack]

Rites of battle proclaim that many chapters rule of their home world are distant, and that many chapters prefer to keep their recruiting stock as "pure" as possible, although it seems that its applying this to the medieval, feral or death worlds that many of the Chapters homeworlds are.

That was sort of my point. This is one of the reasons I don't think it pays to overestimate the Marines' power, influence, and ability to hold the Imperium together on their own- so many of them have this obsessive warrior-ethos that it impedes their ability to govern even a single planet responsibly.

Yeah, I know. I'm just quoting a source and elaborating on it.

[Connor MacLeod]

This is a factor in real life. A lot of things that theoretically can be automated on a warship won't be, because unless you have full AI (the Imperium doesn't) you can't count on the machinery being smart enough to react and fix itself in situations where a human being would know what to do immediately. And when you're being shot at, that happens a lot.

Well in 40K 'automation' can include servitors and servitors are pretty common (at least monotask servitors) and could be used to automate alot of functions. The reason the Navy supposedly does not use servitors is that human crews are more versatile: they can fill any shipboard role that doesn't require specialised knowledge - particularily serving a role as both crews and soldiers (for ground or boarding actions, for example. A servitor can't be expected to fight and crew a ship both.) The fact you can cyborg your crews may go some way to offset the difference as well. Of course if you go by some of the more recent stuff (including the FFG fluff) a starship has a 'machine spirit' intellect that helps run the ship (much like a Titan.).

It's trench warfare. Too head-bangy to suit a bunch of plot-fetishists like the Tzeentchians. And Slaanesh... well, where's the fun in trench warfare? You basically have to be Ernst Jünger to enjoy it.

There's plenty of room for political fuckery in the chain of command on both sides as far as Tzeentch goes, and there's plenty of psykers and sorcery being used on the Chaos side of things. And trench warfare is going to be full of sensations of some sort or another to attract slaaneshi. It doesnt' have to be nice and clean and decadent to draw them in. In 'Fulgrim' we get an author who is murdering people and using blood (And her own filth) to do properly Slaaneshi artwork, for example.

Maybe they're sticking a mirror into the path of the beam and firing at reduced power? Or, essentially, building some similar sort of optics setup. That would explain both the ability to fire above ground (stick up a periscope and shine the laser through it) and the limit on how much power you can deliver without blowing apart the weapon.

One possibility about orbital bombardment I've always had is that some ships use their point defense guns. By many sources they're as big or bigger than Titan grade weapons, and the need to get within low orbit/high altitude to bombard teh target fits more with 'point defense' ranges. That doesn't fit with every example (13th Legion battleship bombardment, or Execution Hour and cruisers bombing with their broadside weapons.) but we also knwo from Nightbringer that at least the munitions-type weapons can be reduced in yield (They do it on bombardment cannon.) It can also depend on how the broadside is arranged (lots of small guns or a few big ones?)

I don't think "iron within, iron without" can be taken as evidence for a versus comparison...

200-300 kg is about the estimated mass for Space Marine power armour (ignoring the pictures which is going to lead to much huger-masses given how thick and bulky it is.) I suppose I'm not being precise (given FFG lists power armour as 180 kg) but I'm assuming some variation due to differences in height/weight for Astartes (There is also the fact Deathwatch also says that an unarmed Marine in armour masses between 500-1000 kg.. I find it hard to believe that a Marine is going to mass 300+ kilos alone.)

Although given the bizarre shit Space Marines can some sort of 'artificial' structural reinforcement would hardly be impossible either. Works for the Tyranids.

Kriegers are supposed to be expendable, not wastable.

Imperial armour. The two are the same by Grimdark Fiat.

As to the rest- my impression is that Imperial governance is very uneven and (again) partly feudal. Any given crisis is almost entirely entrusted to whoever is put in charge of handling it, personally. Oversight is usually very minimal, except for permanent liaison positions like commissars. And since many commissars are bloodthirsty idiots, they're not good at restraining bloodthirsty idiocy on the part of general-level officers.

Depends on the world. In the Ultramarines novels (for example) Pavonis started out independent with minimal oversight (in Nightbringer) but by the time of Courage and Honour (due to two separate attempted rebellions) it comes under direct Imperial control. How the Imperium actually functions (and how big it is) is one of those big 'depends on source' question marks that there is no clear cut answer on as of yet. IE: the 'billions of [hive] worlds' commentaries that conflict with the million world assessment.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, the largest number of worlds I'd assign to the Ultramarines and the 500 or so chapters that can plausibly be descended from them would be several thousand. Remember, we know of at least one Second Founding chapter, split off from the Ultramarines while Guilliman was still alive: the Iron Snakes. And they show no interest in governing any of the worlds immediately around themselves at all- hell, they don't really even rule their own world, or if they do there's not much evidence for it.

That said, there may be a hundred or two hundred mini-Ultramars scattered around the galaxy; I wouldn't be surprised.

That's not the best example, as the Iron Snakes are still heavily involved in watching over/protecting an entire region (sector or subsector) of space, and their presence is incorporated heavily into that region - in myth if nothing else, but the TI depiction of the Naxos battle (where they fuck up the economy of an entire planet) shows that they have considerable political influence over the subsector. The Space Wolves are in a similar position (CG: the planet Garm in Grey Hunter, the events in wolf's Honour, and the commentary in the 5th edition codex RE: scope of their territory.) The Mortifactors are a better example, as per WoU they seem to have only a single world (although that could have changed). I could of course counter with the White consuls from Dark Creed, who are spread over fifty or so worlds which are their protectorates. Protectorates also are mentioned in 'Void Stalker' with quite a few Guilliman-descended chapters. And if we interpreted WoU in a certain way, the Mortifactors could be seen as an oddity, given the Smurf's reaction to how their cousins behaved (again playing into the 5th edition slant on how united and perfect and omnipresent the Space Marines are.)

In any case I reiterate that 'depending on certain sources' angle, because that was just ONE way to intepret it, and it has plenty of backing. 5th edition for example mentions more worlds being given over to the 'direct governance' of Space Marine Chapters as a stability measure.

On top of that a world doesn't have to be directly governed or controlled to be influenced by the Astartes. As I also noted, WoU notes that Tarsis Ultra had diverged from the Macragge ideal quite a bit over the millenia, but it was still far more of a Smurf like world because of Guilliman's actions post-compliance than many other worlds (EG Armageddon.) Given the way the smurfs are portrayed in the HH series, them conquering a fair chunk of the Imperium singlehanded seems quite likely, nevermind what may have happened post Heresy. Again 'certain point of view', but I like it purely for the anti-grimdark value inherent in it, and because it tweaks that 'MAT WARD RAGE' aspect that has grown entrenched in 40K of late (not that there isn't a certain merit to it, but its gotten way out of hand.)

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah. This means the area of the interior is only about 800km square. That’s somewhat larger then Hawthorne Army Depot which is the largest ammunition storage facility on the planet, and not that densely packed, but it sure isn’t impressive for a facility we are told is so very important. Sure, it may have many underground levels but that also suggests its one absurdly dense target. 8km remains silly. I’m sure the author thought it was a vast depth; but in reality we’d expect a regiment or brigade in the cold war to cover that much depth alone in open land. I suppose it gets a partial pass since it’s merely one of three lines… but of supposedly of an uber fortress built with unlimited time and materials with great mobile reserves it is unimpressive. Course they have huge artillery pieces with 15km range so things are massively screwed up.

Well as will become obvious later in the book apparently Vraks is now where they stick all the 'old' vehicles rather than more modern stuff (although in 40K the distinction betwene old and modern is more than blurred..) Exactly what Vraks is supposed to represent isn't clear cut, since this was basically something introduced specifically for this series (I can't think of anything remotely like it cropping up for the Guard. The Navy have 'mothballs' for old starships which is the closest.) The only other places even remotely like Vraks were mentioned in the Munitorum manual, and there are only 5 such places like that in the Imperium, and they're all at Segementum Naval and military Headquarters and only stockpile 'commonly consumed' materials like ammo and food to be distributed throughout the segmentum as needed. There are hints about what may be temporary bases set up at the sector level, but that's about it. For all we know Vraks was some temporary stockpile that turned into a permanant dumping ground for shit because some Muitorum clerk thought it was a great idea.

I would also contest the idea that this is an 'uber fortress', given they apparently gave no thought at all to any real orbital defenses (I don't recall any mention of system defense ships or monitors, orbital defense stations, etc.) Hell the scope of defenses for 'strategically important' bases in and around the Eye of Terror verge on the hundreds of millions or billions of troops, hundreds of warships, and usually include at elast some token Astartes presence and probably titans (EG Cadia and Boros Gate). The fact that it was suggested that Vraks could be written off and the losses made up elsewhere also leads me to suggest that its 'value' was entirely subjective.

For how big of an assault? This number seems very puny for millions of men in action.

About a regiment (or less) worth of forces. They mention 5-9 companies on the assault, and all 360 guns were apparently a Regiment's worth of guns. So maybe thousands of men - they mention its not as big an assault as others.

HESH is most effective for wall beaching among ammunition types if the wall is anything like concrete. HESH would tend to punch something like a clean hole through a wall rather than of progressively deeper crater. The US Army standard for a breach hole is ~1.3m diameter and can be blown by two 105mm HEP (same thing as HESH just US name) shells. Breaking the rebar is a much bigger problem then blowing out the concrete.

They had a type of round that was basically a HESH in the previous IA book, but IIRC it wasn't a common design. I'd have to look back.