Imperial armour: Siege of Vraks analysis

[Simon_Jester]

That's not the best example, as the Iron Snakes are still heavily involved in watching over/protecting an entire region (sector or subsector) of space, and their presence is incorporated heavily into that region - in myth if nothing else, but the TI depiction of the Naxos battle (where they fuck up the economy of an entire planet) shows that they have considerable political influence over the subsector.

They have influence, but come on here, they don't govern. There are no Iron Snake detachments sitting around telling people on all these planets what to do. Other chapters will of course do things differently, but please try to get my actual point so we don't get horribly lost in the details.

Not all Ultramarine chapters will have protectorates, some will, there will probably be... oh, I don't know, a few thousand Marine-governed planets in the Imperium that aren't being deliberately maintained in a state of barbarism by the chapter that dominates them (the Space Wolves are a good example of a chapter that does this).

I don't disagree that such worlds will exist. And I do like the idea of these bastions of good government and relative freedom from the crazier institutions of the Imperium.

What does "MATT WARD RAGE" mean?

[Zor]

Matt Ward is one of the high ranking guys at games workshop, he has made some decisions with the Warhammer 40,000 that did not go over well with its Fandom.

Zor

[Simon_Jester]

Well yes, but what are they and why do they form some persistent pattern that makes people unhappy?

[Black Admiral]

Not all Ultramarine chapters will have protectorates, some will, there will probably be... oh, I don't know, a few thousand Marine-governed planets in the Imperium that aren't being deliberately maintained in a state of barbarism by the chapter that dominates them (the Space Wolves are a good example of a chapter that does this).

Also, it isn't just the more civic-minded Smurf-descended Chapters who'll rule over various protectorate-worlds (or, rather, do so responsibly); the Crimson Fists Chapter Master has been involved in the governance of Rynn's World since they established themselves there, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Raven Guard effectively run at least some of the worlds around Kiavahr.

On the other lightning claw, I doubt most of the White Scars or Iron Hands' daughter-Chapters are going to be much for civil governance

Matt Ward is one of the high ranking guys at games workshop, he has made some decisions with the Warhammer 40,000 that did not go over well with its Fandom.

Zor

That's something of an understatement.

Well yes, but what are they and why do they form some persistent pattern that makes people unhappy?

Among other things, he's an Ultramarines fanboy in a big, and offensive, way; have a shufty. Then that's that incident with Grey Knights murdering Sisters of Battle as blood magic fuel (which they didn't even have to do within the narrative of those events, so yay for pointless murder! I can quote this if necessary). Just speaking of stuff I'm personally familiar with.

[Zor]

Well yes, but what are they and why do they form some persistent pattern that makes people unhappy?

To name a few of his blunders, having the Necrons and Blood Angels team up to fight the Tyranids once, the creation of the Nemesis Dreadknight and having the Salamanders (which are supposed to be black) be black because of a geneseed mutation, rather than, for example, simply saying that Nocturne was originally colonized by people primarily from Africa.

Zor

[Simon_Jester]

I still don't understand how all this about Matt Ward fits into the place Connor mentioned him. Which is not to say I have any respect for Ward; I just am not seeing some important connection here, between the "MATT WARD RAGE" which I understand and what he and I were talking about.

I'm having a mentally slow day. Sorry.

[Kingmaker]

I still don't understand how all this about Matt Ward fits into the place Connor mentioned him. Which is not to say I have any respect for Ward; I just am not seeing some important connection here, between the "MATT WARD RAGE" which I understand and what he and I were talking about.

I'm having a mentally slow day. Sorry.

Matt Ward's smurfwanking has generated a backlash amongst certain elements of the WH40k fanbase, and part of that backlash is a tendency to view/portray the Ultramarines as a bunch of useless incompetents who failed to meaningfully contribute (or even show up) to the survival of the Imperium during its most severe crises. Along with this, Roboute Guilliman (i.e. Rowboat Girlyman) gets characterized as an idiot whose arrogance and stupidity sabotaged the recovery of the Imperium after the Horus Heresy.

This is in stark contrast to Connor's hypothetical, which portrays the smurfs and their primarch quite favorably compared to other chapters and the rest of the Imperium.

At least, that's my guess at to what Connor was referring to with 'MAT WARD RAGE'.

[Simon_Jester]

Ah.

Although there's nothing all that special about the Ultramarines that other chapters couldn't do even under Connor's interpretation; the main difference is simply that (if we try to compromise between Ward's stupidity and the 'realistic' history of the setting) the Ultramarines were pretty much the only legion left largely intact at the end of the war. As 4chan puts it, "the Ultramarines were conveniently on the other side of the galaxy."

A chapter like the Salamanders would probably have been just as likely to become avid builders and governors, given how they rule Nocturne.

[Sea Skimmer]

I would also contest the idea that this is an 'uber fortress', given they apparently gave no thought at all to any real orbital defenses (I don't recall any mention of system defense ships or monitors, orbital defense stations, etc.) Hell the scope of defenses for 'strategically important' bases in and around the Eye of Terror verge on the hundreds of millions or billions of troops, hundreds of warships, and usually include at elast some token Astartes presence and probably titans (EG Cadia and Boros Gate). The fact that it was suggested that Vraks could be written off and the losses made up elsewhere also leads me to suggest that its 'value' was entirely subjective.

Orbital defenses don't seem like a very good idea; what good are the number of ships you can afford to have static over a planet really going to do against an enemy fleet? On earth coastal defense ships made certain sense prior to the invention of long range gunfire methods because they could exploit the narrow approaches of harbors for protection, but nothing like that applies in space. Otherwise you're just asking for a one sided slaughter.

Orbital stations meanwhile can't actually orbit or else for long periods of the orbit they'll be on the other side of the planet, or in a geosynchronous orbit they'd at times be tens of thousands of miles away, and still wander over a fair chunk of space. I've noticed sci fi largely ignores this point. If you want a defense station to stay over a point on the surface that's relatively small they need the engines to hold position independent of local gravity. So if they have shields and guns on the surface that already suffice to ward off a major bombardment attempt placing stuff in orbit isn't that big of an actual advantage.

About a regiment (or less) worth of forces. They mention 5-9 companies on the assault, and all 360 guns were apparently a Regiment's worth of guns. So maybe thousands of men - they mention its not as big an assault as others.

Well, that's isn't so bad then, though nothing impressive and maybe not even meeting US cold war standards for gun to man ratios depending on how far under 100,000 this regiment had fallen.

[PainRack]

Also, it isn't just the more civic-minded Smurf-descended Chapters who'll rule over various protectorate-worlds (or, rather, do so responsibly); the Crimson Fists Chapter Master has been involved in the governance of Rynn's World since they established themselves there, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Raven Guard effectively run at least some of the worlds around Kiavahr.

Source? I was under the impression from the Space Battles series that the Crimson Fists role on Rynn world was ceremonial and that the governer ruled the planet.

Among other things, he's an Ultramarines fanboy in a big, and offensive, way; have a shufty. Then that's that incident with Grey Knights murdering Sisters of Battle as blood magic fuel (which they didn't even have to do within the narrative of those events, so yay for pointless murder! I can quote this if necessary). Just speaking of stuff I'm personally familiar with.

I never really understood the rage for that, outside of the shift in narrative.

The GK codex significantly changes the narrative tone for the Grey Knights, but that has been the case for the entire 5th edt codexes. Within the context of the codex itself, the event was... logical. They needed something "pure" to banish the Daemons, and unlike previous codexes, the Grey Knights are now pragmatic, cold blooded Daemon killing bastards as opposed to the thin Gray line of heroes. Just look at how they "cleansed" the survivors of Armaggadeon.

There is no notion of the Grey Knights being "pure", although I would question whether SoB are "pure" in that context too.

[Zinegata]

They had a type of round that was basically a HESH in the previous IA book, but IIRC it wasn't a common design. I'd have to look back.

That's the Augur round that was exclusive to the Leman Russ Conqueror variant, which sees action in the Gaunt's Ghosts novel Honour Guard. It's good enough to punch holes (but not destroy) a Baneblade.

[Zinegata]

Matt Ward's smurfwanking has generated a backlash amongst certain elements of the WH40k fanbase, and part of that backlash is a tendency to view/portray the Ultramarines as a bunch of useless incompetents who failed to meaningfully contribute (or even show up) to the survival of the Imperium during its most severe crises. Along with this, Roboute Guilliman (i.e. Rowboat Girlyman) gets characterized as an idiot whose arrogance and stupidity sabotaged the recovery of the Imperium after the Horus Heresy.

This is in stark contrast to Connor's hypothetical, which portrays the smurfs and their primarch quite favorably compared to other chapters and the rest of the Imperium.

At least, that's my guess at to what Connor was referring to with 'MAT WARD RAGE'.

Ward's fluff is terrible crap to be honest. It took Dan Abnett writing Know No Fear to make the Ultramarines respectable again.

Essentially, what Abnett does is to show that the Ultramarines - out of all the Legions - are the only true professional army. Not a "warrior band". Not a "conquering horde". But a professional army - an instrument of the state to enforce its will by the proper application of deadly force; that is not reliant on individual charisma or heroics to operate, but rather by the continuous application of codified "best practices".

That's why it's not hard to imagine that the worlds under Ultramarine protection are well-governed.

[Black Admiral]

I never really understood the rage for that, outside of the shift in narrative.

The GK codex significantly changes the narrative tone for the Grey Knights, but that has been the case for the entire 5th edt codexes. Within the context of the codex itself, the event was... logical. They needed something "pure" to banish the Daemons, and unlike previous codexes, the Grey Knights are now pragmatic, cold blooded Daemon killing bastards as opposed to the thin Gray line of heroes. Just look at how they "cleansed" the survivors of Armaggadeon.

There is no notion of the Grey Knights being "pure", although I would question whether SoB are "pure" in that context too.

I dislike that incident because, leaving aside the fact that I don't like shifting the Grey Knights from "incorruptible champions of the Emperor's Light" to "blood magic wielding nutjobs", even within the narrative set up to justify it it's utter bollocks;

876.M41 The Bloodtide Returns

Chaos comes to the Basilica of St. Mariel on the world of Van Horne. A statue of the Emperor is accidentally damaged during renovation work of the inner sanctum, disrupting the forgotten stasis-reliquary within. As the ancient prison crumbles to dust, the Bloodthirster Ka'jagga'nath, Lord of Bloodtide, breaks free. At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servants, roam the nearby streets seizing hapless citizens to use as blood sacrifices upon the tainted altar. For eight days and nights the orgies of gore continue, each fresh death luring yet more Daemons to the mortal world. Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the ninth day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the Ebon Chalice assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls. It is only when the Grey Knights' 4th Brotherhood arrives on Van Horne that the Bloodtide is abated.

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades on the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart. A trio of Librarians lead the attack, enunciating the cants of cleansing that repel the Bloodtide wherever they tread. In the end, Ka'jagga'nath is only defeated through the selfless sacrifice of Ordan, Champion of the 4th Brotherhood. Before Ka'jagga'nath's spirit can escaped his ruined body, the Grey Knights are able to cast the Daemon's dark presence back into the Warp, and the psychic backwash banishes the Bloodtide and the Daemons it drew forth.
- Codex: Grey Knights, 5th ed., pg. 15

Emphasis mine; they didn't even fucking need to do it (see: emphasized sentence, the which is something that Grey knights do anyway and have in the past had TT rules representing this). This is quite aside from the manifest stupidity of trying to protect yourself from a daemon of the Blood God by using blood rituals.

[Simon_Jester]

They had a type of round that was basically a HESH in the previous IA book, but IIRC it wasn't a common design. I'd have to look back.

That's the Augur round that was exclusive to the Leman Russ Conqueror variant, which sees action in the Gaunt's Ghosts novel Honour Guard. It's good enough to punch holes (but not destroy) a Baneblade.

Hole a tank enough times and you'll probably kill it. Of course, it can take a lot of times if you're not doing anything but punching holes- HEAT rounds punch small holes but then slug a jet of plasma through them, for example.

Ward's fluff is terrible crap to be honest. It took Dan Abnett writing Know No Fear to make the Ultramarines respectable again.

Essentially, what Abnett does is to show that the Ultramarines - out of all the Legions - are the only true professional army. Not a "warrior band". Not a "conquering horde". But a professional army - an instrument of the state to enforce its will by the proper application of deadly force; that is not reliant on individual charisma or heroics to operate, but rather by the continuous application of codified "best practices".

That's why it's not hard to imagine that the worlds under Ultramarine protection are well-governed.

I don't think the Ultramarines are unique in this regard- there are other legions which can be considered "professional" and which are capable of good government. They just happen to be the one that survived the Heresy intact (contrast to the Salamanders or the Imperial Fists) and on the Imperial side of the line (contrast to, say, the Thousand Sons who might well have made pretty good rulers)

[Black Admiral]

From what we see of Kiavahr and Deliverance in Deliverance Lost, Corax and the Raven Guard don't seem to've done a bad job of running them. They're not too popular with what's left of the Tech-Guilds, but that's not surprising considering that they lost, badly, during the Lycaen rebellion and with the Mechanicus taking over operation of the Kiavahran forges & banning a lot of the Tech-Guilds' kit (not to mention Corax dropping nuclear bombs on their heads); that kind of thing breeds a teensy bit of resentment..

[PainRack]

I dislike that incident because, leaving aside the fact that I don't like shifting the Grey Knights from "incorruptible champions of the Emperor's Light" to "blood magic wielding nutjobs", even within the narrative set up to justify it it's utter bollocks;

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades on the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart. A trio of Librarians lead the attack, enunciating the cants of cleansing that repel the Bloodtide wherever they tread. In the end, Ka'jagga'nath is only defeated through the selfless sacrifice of Ordan, Champion of the 4th Brotherhood. Before Ka'jagga'nath's spirit can escaped his ruined body, the Grey Knights are able to cast the Daemon's dark presence back into the Warp, and the psychic backwash banishes the Bloodtide and the Daemons it drew forth.


Emphasis mine; they didn't even fucking need to do it (see: emphasized sentence, the which is something that Grey knights do anyway and have in the past had TT rules representing this). This is quite aside from the manifest stupidity of trying to protect yourself from a daemon of the Blood God by using blood rituals.

I actually saw both events being connected, that the Knights needed the blood of those uncorruptible to cleanse and repel the Bloodtide.

As for stupidity involving blood rituals, its..... not that far of a stretch to be honest. The Grey Knights needed something holy and pure to repulse the taint of Chaos, if we believe that blood carries the life-force and thus the grace of the Sisters of Battle, using that blood to annoint them might had been neccessary.

I'm annoyed at the Grimdark aspect of it but I can see the thematic aspects of it. But then again, I grew up watching bad asian B films, so my sense of appropiate themes may be badly impaired. Especially when the shamans/bomohs feed their baby ghost with menstrual blood so they can use the magic powers.....

Frankly, I'm more annoyed at the weilding of Daemonic weaponery, because only the Grey Knight champion is holy enough to use them safely, and prevent it from corrupting others. It screams of the wank that the Codex drips of, especially a certain Daigo.

It might had echoed the 13th Wolf company ordeal, or the Legion of the Damned BEFORE their fluff got fleshed out, or even Leman Russ..... if it wasn't for the fact that he kept pawning daemons.

[Ugolino]

Given all those facts, it stands to reason that a fair chunk of the Imperium (at least if you hold to the 'one million worlds and not a world more' belief.) is made up of Ultramarines, quite possibly the majority, and that each of those worlds is, to some degree or another, a reflection of Ultramar, Guilliman, etc.

I prefer to think that Guilliman lost 495 worlds to tactical incompetence during the Heresy, and just managed to keep the five mentioned in all previous fluff.

[Black Admiral]

By which you mean nine - Macragge, Prandium, Quintarn, Tarentus, Masali, Iax, Talassar, Calth and Espandor - and all we knew of them were that they were the major worlds of Ultramar; indeed, Iax was one of the five principal worlds thereof during the Heresy era. Of course, the Smurfs have let some parts of Ultramar run down since the days of the Great Crusade, such as the planetary defence grids (I can only envision many pairs of browned armour trousers if Honsou and the Moron Brigade showed up at Calth c. M30).

[Zinegata]

That's the Augur round that was exclusive to the Leman Russ Conqueror variant, which sees action in the Gaunt's Ghosts novel Honour Guard. It's good enough to punch holes (but not destroy) a Baneblade.

Hole a tank enough times and you'll probably kill it. Of course, it can take a lot of times if you're not doing anything but punching holes- HEAT rounds punch small holes but then slug a jet of plasma through them, for example.[/quote]

Of course, but the idea in Honour Guard is that the Augur rounds weren't enough to destroy a Baneblade in one or two shots. Instead, one of the Pardus tankers holed the Baneblade twice, got blasted to pieces by the Baneblade, and then a second Pardus taker fired a Hi-Ex shell into one of the holes and blew the Baneblade to bits from within.

I don't think the Ultramarines are unique in this regard- there are other legions which can be considered "professional" and which are capable of good government. They just happen to be the one that survived the Heresy intact (contrast to the Salamanders or the Imperial Fists) and on the Imperial side of the line (contrast to, say, the Thousand Sons who might well have made pretty good rulers)

Salamanders are much more "tribal" in nature however. They're wardens/guardians, but that's not really in the same sense as being an instrument of state interests in the modern political sense.

And we barely see the Imperial Fists (thus far), so I can't really say how their structure works. But all of the other Legions that we do see tend to have elements that make them unlike a real "professional" army (they have elements of professionalism, but it isn't their core). The White Scars, Space Wolves, and World Eaters for instance are all conquering hordes. Most other Legions are like the Luna Wolves - held together largely by the strength of personality (arguably the cult of personality) of their primarch.

The Imperial Fists seem the most similar to the XIII since they do build up the palace defenses and other "civilized" pursuits, but engineering ability is not synonymous with being ruled by state interests. The fact that the a huge chunk of the Fists end up as the Black Templars (which is a crusading horde) tends to indicate they are much less "professional" than they seem.

[Simon_Jester]

I think it's partly the influence or lack thereof of the primarchs.

The primarchs were created as strategists- generals and satraps for the Imperium. Some of them had little ambition beyond battle, but most were more capable than that. However, the loss of so many primarchs during and after the war left most of the Astartes with no strategic direction- no sense of long-range plans beyond "defend this" and "get revenge on that." So some of the legions which, under their primarch, could have been effective civilizing forces just... drift. Like the Imperial Fists (or certain elements of them).

[PainRack]

Errr..... the Imperial Fists primarch was still alive, until he died in a Black Crusade much later.

We are told that he endured a bout of guilt and depression, culminating in the Iron Cage that allowed his Legion to be broken up into 4 chapters. Still, that must had left decades, or even centuries for him to have made an impact.

We do know that the Fists supposedly persecuted the campaign against the Traitor Legions successfully post Terra, and responded to even more calls for aid than the Ultramarines, which suggests that the Ultramarines were tied down in pacification and security campaigns while the Fists acted as the Imperium strategic reserve. Of course, some later sources disagree, but the nature of the Imperium propaganda and histiography means we can't really know.

[Simon_Jester]

"During and after," I said.

The problem is quite simply- what does a legion/chapter become without its primarch? My feeling is that many legions do not live up to their potential without a primarch at the head. This being 40k, that may even be true on a metaphysical level. So legions that might be reasonably competent at governance and 'nation-building' with their primarch, or who have that potential within them... well, without the primarch they tend to drift and self-stereotype.

I think that's what happened to some of the more "civilized" of the legions. The Ultramarines are exceptional in that, for one, they had the direction of their primarch for a long time. For another, Guilliman had always been among the most "civilized" of the Primarchs, with the exception of a few others who were dead or turned to Chaos (Magnus comes to mind). On top of that, the Codex Astartes' strategic teachings are, I suspect, really something that speaks most effectively to the Ultramarines- simply because they're the ones who are culturally and genetically closest to the guy who wrote it.

So I think that the potential for effective government is present in more chapters than just the Smurf-derived ones, although obviously to wildly varying degrees. That's all.

[Zinegata]

The primarch-centric nature of most other Legions is precisely why I say the Ultramarines are the only real "professional" force however. They're like the Roman Army - even if you go through many different Caesars, they'll still be able to recruit new troops and continue fighting because they were trained from individual trooper upwards to serve as part of a long-standing organization based on sound principles as opposed to simple cult of personality. They're not like the Macedonian army of Alexander, which fell apart as soon as Alexander died.

There's a sequence in KNF wherein the XIII Legion essentially has to confront the very real possibility that Guilliman is dead. And unlike the Luna Wolves, who essentially fall apart and panic after Horus' wounding (and stupidly had him over to Erebus), the XIII Legion basically just shrugs and keeps on fighting. Losing the Primarch shakes them, but their reaction is to fall back on their sound theoretical and practical analysis skills. They know what to do even if the Primarch isn't there to guide them along.

Finally, I suspect that the UM doctrine will work with most Astartes had they understood how it should have been interpreted. It was not meant to be literal gospel, but it was supposed to be a collection of martial learnings that the XIII had gathered after many years on the campaign. Even the Imperial Army (in KNF) was apparently using deployment schemes outlined in one of Guilliman's manuals, indicating it was far more than just something written for the genetically compatible. Heck, if the rumors about the two missing Primarchs are even true, then a good bulk of the XIII's strength isn't even descended from Gwilly at all.

[Alkaloid]

I actually saw both events being connected, that the Knights needed the blood of those uncorruptible to cleanse and repel the Bloodtide.

As for stupidity involving blood rituals, its..... not that far of a stretch to be honest. The Grey Knights needed something holy and pure to repulse the taint of Chaos, if we believe that blood carries the life-force and thus the grace of the Sisters of Battle, using that blood to annoint them might had been neccessary.

I'm annoyed at the Grimdark aspect of it but I can see the thematic aspects of it. But then again, I grew up watching bad asian B films, so my sense of appropiate themes may be badly impaired. Especially when the shamans/bomohs feed their baby ghost with menstrual blood so they can use the magic powers.....

Frankly, I'm more annoyed at the weilding of Daemonic weaponery, because only the Grey Knight champion is holy enough to use them safely, and prevent it from corrupting others. It screams of the wank that the Codex drips of, especially a certain Daigo.

It might had echoed the 13th Wolf company ordeal, or the Legion of the Damned BEFORE their fluff got fleshed out, or even Leman Russ..... if it wasn't for the fact that he kept pawning daemons.

People would probably actually accept it if it didn't so obviously serve Wards seemingly pathological need to make the Ultramarines the greatest, noblest and purest of all space marines anywhere ever. The great heroes of the Imperium, their shining shield against daemons actually sacrificing imperial servants to do their job fits with the whole grimdark thing, but in this case it just looks like Ward is pointing at the Knghts and shouting 'look, look, the Grey Knights are only better than the Ultramarines because they are evil and cheat. Not like the Ultramarines, they would never cheat. No, the Ultramarines are lovely and pure and the greatest and this proves they are better than the Grey Knights at killing daemons (the grey knights cheat, see), despite what 30 years of fluff has told you.'

[Zinegata]

Funnily, Abnett makes it clear that the Ultramarines have a "by any means necessary" clause in the Codex - meaning that yes, you are allowed to cheat as long as it means you win.