Making sense of neoBSG storyline...

[AndroAsc]

Well based on the explanation of earlier posts, the neoBSG storyline does make some dumb sense, if you acknowledge that "God" as in a real mystical God had some hand in influencing the events of the show to avoid the cycle of Human-Cylon conflict.

In other words, the neoBSG writers are sloppy dumb fucks... If you want to introduce "God" into a science fiction show, at least provide a fucking rational explanation (e.g. DS9 prophets were wormhole aliens, Warhammer 40k Chaos Gods were extradimensional beings living in the warp, etc...)

I would say neoBSG started out relatively strong in Season 1 and 2, but by Season 3 it's pretty evident the writers have no fucking clue of WTF they are writing about anymore.

[Aniron]

Having just finished the series, I can say that the mutiny in season four was in no way justified. Many civilians and innocents died because Gaeta used his personal prejudices against Adama and co and couldn't think rationally for a few minutes. Are Adama and the others innocent? No. He likes to pull the "military decision" card a lot when he disagrees with what's going on politically. Not giving much credence to the Quroum is another mistake. Does this mean that two idiots should go around killing people because they don't like it and can't think rationally about the situation? No. The fact is that the rebels had nothing but their word and technology to offer. In these dire times, trust has to be given. They are scrambling to figure out the location of earth and they needed the identity of the Final Five to help.

In reality, Tom Zarek was the actual president of the colonies, a fact that didn't stop Adama and Roslin from outsing him twice,installing an unelected Lee Adama in his place because they didn't like him.

That is patently false. Zarek gave Roslin the VP post and he then resigned, giving her the powers of president. This is in "Collaborators."

Nor could he have expected Zarek to do what he did, when sequestering the Quorum would have been as effective.

I disagree. We learn in season one that Zarek was a violent man. There's no reason why Gaeta wouldn't remember this.

Them needing an ally against Cavil cannot change that, or the way that people rightly feel about them. After all, the last time Cylons wanted to 'help' upgrade human technology 12 planets got incinerated because of it.

Why not? Remember that these rebels admitted that it was a mistake to nuke the colonies. They disagreed with Cavil immensely, even going so far as to have his line and other models' lines killed. There was a civil war and the rebels broke off from Cavil. There was no reason to not trust them, especially from those who could think rationally about the survival of mankind. The mutiny was in no way justified.

[Aniron]

They are scrambling to figure out the location of earth and they needed the identity of the Final Five to help.

The identities were already known and they found earth; I got the timeline mixed up. But the point still stands that the upgraded drives would help them.

[Scrib]

Having just finished the series, I can say that the mutiny in season four was in no way justified. Many civilians and innocents died because Gaeta used his personal prejudices against Adama and co and couldn't think rationally for a few minutes. Are Adama and the others innocent? No. He likes to pull the "military decision" card a lot when he disagrees with what's going on politically. Not giving much credence to the Quroum is another mistake. Does this mean that two idiots should go around killing people because they don't like it and can't think rationally about the situation? No. The fact is that the rebels had nothing but their word and technology to offer. In these dire times, trust has to be given. They are scrambling to figure out the location of earth and they needed the identity of the Final Five to help.

Uh, look back at the mutiny. IIRC correctly the only person killed before the Quorum was that mechanic guy and that was unavoidable. Now, you've watched it more recently that me so I might be wrong. How did they fail to think rationally? Adama ignored a direct order from the democratically elected lawmakers of the fleet. He then used military force to compel ships to do something they were well within their rights not to do. And this was after he refused Zarek the presidency because he felt like it. This was a military dictator. There was no legal recourse, he had already proven that he did not give a shit what the Quorum thought. How exactly were they going to deal with him? Take him to court? How?

In reality, Tom Zarek was the actual president of the colonies, a fact that didn't stop Adama and Roslin from outsing him twice,installing an unelected Lee Adama in his place because they didn't like him.

That is patently false. Zarek gave Roslin the VP post and he then resigned, giving her the powers of president. This is in "Collaborators."

If I recall there was a bit of strong-arming involved. Zarek even said so afterwards, apparently he felt he had little choice in the matter, and seeing what happened later on he probably wasn't wrong. And Whether Zarek gave up his presidency is irrelevant, there was no election to select another leader. That was the first time.

Then he was selected as Roslin's VP and when she disappeared with the baseship he was supposed to become the President. Except Adama didn't like that, so somehow Lee Adama because President instead. In what world is that not a coup? The only democratically elected member of the executive branch was ousted because the military leader didn't like him, there was no other reason, no allegations of incompetence, just Adama's will.

Nor could he have expected Zarek to do what he did, when sequestering the Quorum would have been as effective.

I disagree. We learn in season one that Zarek was a violent man. There's no reason why Gaeta wouldn't remember this.

Zarek used violence as a tool, he didn't just kill randomly, I'm sure that Gaeta thought they could keep it under control. Even more importantly he thought that the Quorum was on his side, Adama had just declared them all but irrelevant, what sort of sane individual would support a military dictator partnered with a President who abdicated and is just lying around doing nothing? Perhaps it was because Gaeta failed to kill Roslin and they were covering their bases but it was not unreasonable for him to expect their support.

Not to mention that as President Gaeta had to work with him, otherwise it would kinda invalidate his arguments against Adama.

Why not? Remember that these rebels admitted that it was a mistake to nuke the colonies. They disagreed with Cavil immensely, even going so far as to have his line and other models' lines killed. There was a civil war and the rebels broke off from Cavil. There was no reason to not trust them, especially from those who could think rationally about the survival of mankind. The mutiny was in no way justified.

Imagine if it was your family and culture nuked back to the Stone Age. Now imagine the people responsible just decided- conveniently when they need you- that it was all just one big misunderstanding, they were wrong, their bad. And keep in mind that they didn't break off from Cavil because of their "mistake". Now imagine the same people infiltrating your ships and planting technology. It is obvious to us that they were sincere but keep in mind that the rest of the fleet didn't know much, they didn't know Tyrol or any of these Cylons. They couldn't trust their word. Hell, they were acting well within their rights, the law said that they could refuse entry.

[Aniron]

Uh, look back at the mutiny. IIRC correctly the only person killed before the Quorum was that mechanic guy and that was unavoidable. Now, you've watched it more recently that me so I might be wrong.

The corridors were littered with corpses. Innocents not being present is unlikely.

How did they fail to think rationally? Adama ignored a direct order from the democratically elected lawmakers of the fleet. He then used military force to compel ships to do something they were well within their rights not to do. And this was after he refused Zarek the presidency because he felt like it. This was a military dictator. There was no legal recourse, he had already proven that he did not give a shit what the Quorum thought. How exactly were they going to deal with him? Take him to court? How?

Um... they didn't think it through? They didn't think about the consequences, which would most assuredly cause pilots to end up behind bars (Racetrack and the black dude were some)? They didn't think about the needs of the fleet instead of their vendetta against Adama and co.? They didn't think about the innocents that would be murdered? Gaeta didn't think about what it meant to team up with Zarek, a man with a violent past? Remember the shit on Cloud 9 with Zarek?

Here's an important scene about the matter:

Helo: We gotta sell them on it. Point out the benefits. Athena tells me the upgrade should triple the Fleet's jump capacity.

Tyrol: Absolutely. And that's conservative. [Their technology is way ahead of yours].

Adama, to Lee: What do you think?

Lee: Well, tripling jump capacity triples our chances of finding a habitable planet before we run out of food and fuel. That I might be able to sell.

Gaeta then asks what the catch is for this upgrade

Tyrol: We wanna be part of the Fleet, not just along for the ride. Full members, citizens, seat at the Quorum, the whole thing.

The bold is the key. Those who are opposed aren't thinking rationally. They are instead letting what happened cloud their judgement. The fleet's safety and the search for a new home is the top priority. The integration of the rebel Cylons also means more pilots. So, no, they weren't thinking rationally.

If I recall there was a bit of strong-arming involved. Zarek even said so afterwards, apparently he felt he had little choice in the matter, and seeing what happened later on he probably wasn't wrong. And Whether Zarek gave up his presidency is irrelevant, there was no election to select another leader. That was the first time.

Wrong. The idea came from him. "I will personally place your name in nomination as my vice president. Once they confirm you, I submit my resignation and you get sworn in." An election isn't needed. The very idea that he can nominate her and that she can be confirmed suggests that it may be common practice within their government or at least common when extenuating circumstances arise. And it is indeed relevant when you harp on about how he was the president.

Then he was selected as Roslin's VP and when she disappeared with the baseship he was supposed to become the President. Except Adama didn't like that, so somehow Lee Adama because President instead. In what world is that not a coup? The only democratically elected member of the executive branch was ousted because the military leader didn't like him, there was no other reason, no allegations of incompetence, just Adama's will.

Once again, the future of the fleet is at stake. Having these upgraded drives will help them outrun Cavil. The fleet's safety comes before anything else, which is what Adama and the others were thinking of when they made the decision to upgrade the FTL drives. The upgraded FTL drives would help in the aid of searching for food too.

Imagine if it was your family and culture nuked back to the Stone Age. Now imagine the people responsible just decided- conveniently when they need you- that it was all just one big misunderstanding, they were wrong, their bad. And keep in mind that they didn't break off from Cavil because of their "mistake". Now imagine the same people infiltrating your ships and planting technology. It is obvious to us that they were sincere but keep in mind that the rest of the fleet didn't know much, they didn't know Tyrol or any of these Cylons. They couldn't trust their word. Hell, they were acting well within their rights, the law said that they could refuse entry.

I would trust their word because they have the motherfucking technology to help the fleet.. Those assholes on the tylium ship, with the leadership of Zarek, put the fleet in far more danger than Adama and Roslin. What if the ship was found and destroyed? Oops, there goes our ability to jump to find food and even run.

Edit: Imagine if there was another scenario similar to what happened in "The Passage," where a food shortage took place and the only place to get food was to travel through massive amounts of radiation. Those upgrades would help immensely, reducing the amount of damage done to the ships.

[Scrib]

Uh, look back at the mutiny. IIRC correctly the only person killed before the Quorum was that mechanic guy and that was unavoidable. Now, you've watched it more recently that me so I might be wrong.

The corridors were littered with corpses. Innocents not being present is unlikely.

Oh. I'll try to rewatch it later but I'll take your word for it.

How did they fail to think rationally? Adama ignored a direct order from the democratically elected lawmakers of the fleet. He then used military force to compel ships to do something they were well within their rights not to do. And this was after he refused Zarek the presidency because he felt like it. This was a military dictator. There was no legal recourse, he had already proven that he did not give a shit what the Quorum thought. How exactly were they going to deal with him? Take him to court? How?

Um... they didn't think it through? They didn't think about the consequences, which would most assuredly cause pilots to end up behind bars (Racetrack and the black dude were some)? They didn't think about the needs of the fleet instead of their vendetta against Adama and co.? They didn't think about the innocents that would be murdered? Gaeta didn't think about what it meant to team up with Zarek, a man with a violent past? Remember the shit on Cloud 9 with Zarek?

Here's an important scene about the matter:

Helo: We gotta sell them on it. Point out the benefits. Athena tells me the upgrade should triple the Fleet's jump capacity.

Tyrol: Absolutely. And that's conservative. [Their technology is way ahead of yours].

Adama, to Lee: What do you think?

Lee: Well, tripling jump capacity triples our chances of finding a habitable planet before we run out of food and fuel. That I might be able to sell.

Gaeta then asks what the catch is for this upgrade

Tyrol: We wanna be part of the Fleet, not just along for the ride. Full members, citizens, seat at the Quorum, the whole thing.

The bold is the key. Those who are opposed aren't thinking rationally. They are instead letting what happened cloud their judgement. The fleet's safety and the search for a new home is the top priority. The integration of the rebel Cylons also means more pilots. So, no, they weren't thinking rationally.

You do realise that this isn't just about that right? The Cylon tech debate was just the final straw. The issue is about whether they do or do not have a democratic government anymore. Answer: They don't.

If I recall there was a bit of strong-arming involved. Zarek even said so afterwards, apparently he felt he had little choice in the matter, and seeing what happened later on he probably wasn't wrong. And Whether Zarek gave up his presidency is irrelevant, there was no election to select another leader. That was the first time.

Wrong. The idea came from him. "I will personally place your name in nomination as my vice president. Once they confirm you, I submit my resignation and you get sworn in." An election isn't needed. The very idea that he can nominate her and that she can be confirmed suggests that it may be common practice within their government or at least common when extenuating circumstances arise. And it is indeed relevant when you harp on about how he was the president.

I know the idea came from him, he's not stupid, he probably knew that Adama wouldn't let him keep the post (as he proved later) later on he even said that Roslin kept him around to "legitimize her coup" .

Also, this doesn't change the fact that at the time of the mutiny Zarek should have been President. He was ousted. Look at it from the point of view of a citizen or Gaeta for that matter, nothing you do matters. You voted? Too bad the oligarchy don't agree with your decision, so your vote is irrelevant. Of course, this is the same oligarchy that was willing to risk ships helping something that could only have been a Cylon at the time (resurrected Starbuck) and had already shot at the President. This is the same Admiral who was willing to help appoint his notorious son into power. The same Admiral who arrested a member of the Quorum because he could. The same Admiral that will later on risk the only military ship in the fleet for a half-Cylon baby, it working out doesn't make it right.

Then he was selected as Roslin's VP and when she disappeared with the baseship he was supposed to become the President. Except Adama didn't like that, so somehow Lee Adama because President instead. In what world is that not a coup? The only democratically elected member of the executive branch was ousted because the military leader didn't like him, there was no other reason, no allegations of incompetence, just Adama's will.

Once again, the future of the fleet is at stake. Having these upgraded drives will help them outrun Cavil. The fleet's safety comes before anything else, which is what Adama and the others were thinking of when they made the decision to upgrade the FTL drives. The upgraded FTL drives would help in the aid of searching for food too.

So... the ends justify the means? Even if you have to use force? Even when you have to hurt people and ignore democracy? Then the only difference between Adama and Zarek is that one was designated as a hero. Apparently consequentalism is totally fine when heroes use it, but when it's Zarek it's baaaaad.
And let me point out that Zarek was ousted (wow I use that word a lot) before the problem with the jump drives. There was no real reason at the time except "I don't like him." There was no connection at all between the two events.

And no the jump drives can't really help them outrun Cavil can they? He has the same drives and the drives don't work that way.Even with an ordinary drive he wouldn't have been able to catch them. And keep in mind, the race for Earth is over. At best they would be more efficient in terms of fuel consumption, which admittedly could be vital.

Imagine if it was your family and culture nuked back to the Stone Age. Now imagine the people responsible just decided- conveniently when they need you- that it was all just one big misunderstanding, they were wrong, their bad. And keep in mind that they didn't break off from Cavil because of their "mistake". Now imagine the same people infiltrating your ships and planting technology. It is obvious to us that they were sincere but keep in mind that the rest of the fleet didn't know much, they didn't know Tyrol or any of these Cylons. They couldn't trust their word. Hell, they were acting well within their rights, the law said that they could refuse entry.

I would trust their word because they have the motherfucking technology to help the fleet.. Those assholes on the tylium ship, with the leadership of Zarek, put the fleet in far more danger than Adama and Roslin. What if the ship was found and destroyed? Oops, there goes our ability to jump to find food and even run.

Edit: Imagine if there was another scenario similar to what happened in "The Passage," where a food shortage took place and the only place to get food was to travel through massive amounts of radiation. Those upgrades would help immensely, reducing the amount of damage done to the ships.

Aniron you realise that the bolded part makes no sense right? Having the tech =/= trustworthy. There was no reason that they needed to be citizens. Hell, we don't even know if Lee could have turned it around, gotten people to let Cylons aboard with inspectors or something. He should have waited, instead he jumped into something he had no authority in. And nobody was attacking the tylium ship iirc.

And I want to note, Gaeta's anger at Adama was more at the fact that he was making a unilateral decision than anything. This is about more than the tylium ship.

[Aniron]

Look at it from the point of view of a citizen or Gaeta for that matter, nothing you do matters. You voted? Too bad the oligarchy don't agree with your decision, so your vote is irrelevant. Of course, this is the same oligarchy that was willing to risk ships helping something that could only have been a Cylon at the time (resurrected Starbuck) and had already shot at the President. This is the same Admiral who was willing to help appoint his notorious son into power. The same Admiral who arrested a member of the Quorum because he could. The same Admiral that will later on risk the only military ship in the fleet for a half-Cylon baby, it working out doesn't make it right.

Gaeta didn't give a shit about the process of government. Period. He just didn't trust the Cylons. He didn't like how they were getting treatment by Cottle, while he was there to wait to get his false leg adjusted. He didn't want them to gain colonial citizenship. Gaeta confronted Starbuck about her Cylon husband and the other Cylons in the Fleet. He implied Starbuck could be a Cylon too. All of his complaints about the citizens and their right to deny Cylon access to their ships was shrouded in anti-Cylon sentiment. What was his reason for having the Admiral arrested? Treason. Why treason? Because he was collaborating with the rebel Cylons. He didn't give a shit about the governmental process.

I don't agree with a lot of the things Adama did. Risking the lives of everyone to go after a baby was indefensible. And you are right, it working out doesn't make it okay. But I agree with the decision to integrate the rebel Cylons in the fleet. It was for the continuation of their survival. The evidence was laid out to the Quorum (see below for examples) and they still disagreed, putting the Fleet in jeopardy. Zarek and Gaeta's little mutiny didn't do much to shape the government. They murdered the only people that could have convinced the citizens to be on their side.

So... the ends justify the means? Even if you have to use force? Even when you have to hurt people and ignore democracy? Then the only difference between Adama and Zarek is that one was designated as a hero. Apparently consequentalism is totally fine when heroes use it, but when it's Zarek it's baaaaad.

Get back to me when the Admiral had government officials murdered because they didn't agree with him. Get back to me when he signed off on executions of those who collaborated with the Cylons on new Caprica, something that many would do to keep themselves safe. Get back to me when I said the Admiral is a hero. There isn't a single hero in this show, except perhaps Helo, and that too is extremely debatable.

And no the jump drives can't really help them outrun Cavil can they? He has the same drives and the drives don't work that way.Even with an ordinary drive he wouldn't have been able to catch them. And keep in mind, the race for Earth is over. At best they would be more efficient in terms of fuel consumption, which admittedly could be vital.

The search for a home is still underway, as Lee states in the dialogue I quoted.

Aniron you realise that the bolded part makes no sense right? Having the tech =/= trustworthy. There was no reason that they needed to be citizens. Hell, we don't even know if Lee could have turned it around, gotten people to let Cylons aboard with inspectors or something. He should have waited, instead he jumped into something he had no authority in. And nobody was attacking the tylium ship iirc.

I know that having the technology doesn't mean they are trustworthy. Their actions showed that they could be trusted. They didn't attack as soon as they were brought back from the rendezvous with Starbuck and the others on the Demetrius. They didn't kill the president and the others that they held. They aided in the destruction of the Resurrection Hub. They aided in the discovery of what they all thought was a new home. They offered up their technology to assist the Fleet. These are actions that are deemed trustworthy and it is not unreasonable to think that these matters were mentioned to the Quorum. I would have trusted the hell out of these rebel Cylons.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Also, this doesn't change the fact that at the time of the mutiny Zarek should have been President.

....snip...

The same Admiral that will later on risk the only military ship in the fleet for a half-Cylon baby, it working out doesn't make it right.

These two statements are both wrong. At the time of the coup, Roslin was still President. And when Adama left to save Hera, the Rebel Baseship had joined the fleet and was designated flagship. Heck, the Baseship was about to become the sole military ship, Galactica was being abandoned and stripped for parts at the time.

[Aniron]

Thanks for that, External_Freedom. I completely forgot about Galactica being stripped for parts.

[jollyreaper]

How much stronger could the show have been if they had just thought things out? Sigh.

[Aniron]

How much stronger could the show have been if they had just thought things out? Sigh.

Thanks for this useless post. I think it's time for you to come to the realization that a lot of shows don't have everything planned ahead of time, especially those that have a lot of shit going on. Even the critically acclaimed shows didn't have everything worked out ahead of time, an example being The Sopranos. Yes, BSG was written into a hole, but I don't give a shit. The ending works for me on a thematic level.

[jollyreaper]

Let's rephrase your post. A lot of people don't wash their hands after using the bathroom so you shouldn't get all bent out of shape when you see the cook come out of the can with dry hands. The food still tastes great and works for me on a gastronomic level. And if you say you can literally taste the feces you're just being needlessly picky.

This is a thread trying to make sense of the storyline, not to praise it. While I will concede that some people liked it, the way some people liked the new star wars trilogy, I would contend that a scientific proof could be constructed to show they're wrong. There's room to disagree on taste with a lot of things or say something is an acquired taste. I would venture that no amount of griping will move someone from one camp to the other!