Legend of the Galactic Heroes vs UFP/ A-Q Dominion

[takemeout_totheblack]

Something I've been kicking around in my head between bouts of school-induced psychosis, considering writing a fanfic.
As an avid fan of LoGH and Star Trek I feel that my moderate understanding of both 'Verses should allow me to formulate a scenario that interested parties can sink their teeth into (I hope!)

Scenario/Star Trek:

The stage is set at the height of the Dominion War, both sides are engaging in Total War economic policy. I chose this point in time because I feel that it represents Star Trek at its peak military potential. As no one side is winning and no one side is losing the situation is understandably tense. As such it comes as no surprise when an enormous fleet of unknown origin suddenly appears in contested territory that first contact turns bloody for all involved. Over three hundred alien ships exited a hitherto uncharted anomaly and was promptly attacked simultaneously by both the Federation and the Dominion, each thinking the fleet belonged to the other. The ships were destroyed quickly, further inspection by Federation patrols reveal them to be civilian/scientific vessels or the equivalent thereof.

Approximately 1 week after first contact a fleet numbering in the thousands and consisting of dedicated warships and wartime support ships exits the wormhole. Faced with this fleet both factions withdraw before a shot is fired in order to gather intelligence and muster a offensive/defensive fleet. Both sides fear that diplomacy is no longer an option.

Advantages:
Potentially higher firepower per weapon.
Superior FTL flexibility
More diverse technological understanding
Potentially superior defensive shielding
Established and decentralized industrial base

Disadvantages:
markedly inferior numbers
Lower FTL speed
Inferior ship production capabilities
Questionable strategic/tactical competence

Caveat:
'tech-of-the-week' magic bullet asspulls not allowed, otherwise the Feds would have beat the Dominion already in a realistic wartime setting.
The Q and other such beings are off playing Pride and Prejudice / can't be bothered / planned it all to see what would happen / whatever. Point is they won't be a factor to either side.
Character shields have been affected by the quantum, Ripped Shirt Kirks / Ben Sisko's Mutha Fuckin' Pimp Hands have been normalized!
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
SPOILERS AHEAD: IF YOU DO NOT WISH TO HAVE KEY LEGEND OF THE GALACTIC HEROES PLOT POINTS SPOILED, DO NOT READ ONWARDS

……………okay?
Good.
Forgive the length of this portion, LoGH has all these little factors to consider!

Scenario/LoGH:

The date is mid march 800 UC/ 02 NIC, the FPA has now been completely dissolved and absorbed into the New Galactic Empire under Kaiser Reinhard Von Lohengramm. A strange anomaly opens at the mouth of the Iserlohn Corridor and the resulting uproar then draws the Neue Reich's attentions away from their planned assault on the Iserlohn Republic. The anomaly is large, around half a light second side to side, and does not appear to be dangerous. The Empire's best minds have speculated that the anomaly may be a side-effect of Fortress Geiresberg's warp into the corridor two years prior, a tear in space made worse by the unique conditions present in the corridor.

Kaiser Reinhard, after careful consideration and poking from the scientific community, decides to send a manned operation through once the wormhole is deemed safe. Preliminary scans and follow up calculations by the fleet of science vessels and surveillance ships sent through seem to suggest an identical alternate Milky Way but apparently without the navigational hazards present in their home galaxy. Reinhard, despite being eager to resume his fight with Yang Wen-Li, errs on the side of caution and begins to gather all extra ships to monitor the wormhole, simultaneously building a large fleet near his longstanding Worthy Opponent Yang Wen-Li and quieting any fears his citizens may have regarding the wormhole. Before this characteristically labyrinthine scheme can come to fruition, the science team is subjected to an unprovoked attack by hundreds of alien vessels. Of the few surviving research vessels to make it back, one brought with it a recording of a declaration of war from an alien faction known as The Dominion.

As panic spreads through the Empire Reinhard and his military elite face increasing political pressure to formulate a course of action. Paul Von Oberstein is the first to suggest if that the new galaxy does indeed pose an existential threat to the Galactic Empire, then the only courses of action available are the destruction of the wormhole or the conquest and subjugation of the aggressors. The science team is quick to remind His Majesty that without months of adequate research there's no way for them to understand it much less destroy it. As such Reinhard contacts all forces not currently engaged in stabilizing the New Territories to make for the wormhole at best possible speed. As things stand the Galactic Empire is now mobilizing 120 thousand warships and 45 thousand support ships. One week after the attack Reinhard sends in an expeditionary force of 8 thousand warships and their respective support craft, preferring to gauge his potential enemies before engaging them in full.

…Phew! I'm halfway to writing that fic with this post alone!

Advantages:
Obvious numerical superiority
superior force projection/concentration capabilities
Highly refined mass-producable fusion technology allows extensive proliferation
Significantly faster FTL
Jamming technology allows them to hinder sensor accuracy over extremely large areas
Highly efficient and competent commanding officers
Markedly superior weapons range both for beam and missile based weaponry

Disadvantages:
Potentially inferior firepower per weapon
Potentially inferior shields/defensive technologies
Inflexible FTL
somewhat inferior sublight capabilities
Fixed point of origin makes for vulnerable supply lines
lack of local industrial bases

So, what do you guys think?

[Ahriman238]

I haven't really watched LOGH beyond a few of the battle scenes, but it sounds like a plausible situation for their entry into the war. One complaint, though wartime sensibilities may override it, the Federation is usually a lot more cautious with unknowns.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Yeah, that's why I chose the Dominion War, the Federation was willing to commit genocide in order to win!
I think that at the peak of the war they would be less curious of a large fleet of ships appearing out of nowhere and more 'holy shit! head them off before they attack!'
I know it's a bit of a stretch, but that's the best I could come up with to make the fight seem more logical. That's the trouble with pitting two fairly sensible universes against one another, there's always the 'yeah but they wouldn't fight in the first place' in the back of my head.

[Zor]

On the ground, the Feds don't stand a chance.

Zor

[takemeout_totheblack]

On the ground, the Feds don't stand a chance.

Zor

True, but you could say the same thing about the Federation vs Teddy Ruxbin scenario I'm also considering

Also, I would like folks to consider that the Galactic Empire is facing the UFP and their allies and The Dominion and their buddies. That includes the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, and Breen. Granted the UFP Alliance and Dominion Confederacy probably won't unite against a common threat due to mutual hatred, but it's still going to be a two fronted war in this scenario.

[Gunhead]

First off, can AQ powers match the number of ships the GE can muster? The grand fleet was around 100 000 capital ships which is a good starting point for any comparison. I don't know much about ST in general, but I think the most ships ever to engage each other in trek was few thousand which is an indication of the numbers the AQ could bring into a major engagement. One of the problems is we don't really know a whole lot about LoGH FTL or sensory / stealth capabilities. We just know they operate in a heavy ECM/ECCM environment and that their ships are equipped some sort of stealth tech for emission reduction. They do employ scouts / drones to boost their sensor range.

-Gunhead

[takemeout_totheblack]

First off, can AQ powers match the number of ships the GE can muster? The grand fleet was around 100 000 capital ships which is a good starting point for any comparison. I don't know much about ST in general, but I think the most ships ever to engage each other in trek was few thousand which is an indication of the numbers the AQ could bring into a major engagement. One of the problems is we don't really know a whole lot about LoGH FTL or sensory / stealth capabilities. We just know they operate in a heavy ECM/ECCM environment and that their ships are equipped some sort of stealth tech for emission reduction. They do employ scouts / drones to boost their sensor range.

-Gunhead

Question 1: Can AQ powers match their numbers
Answer: No, as far as I can tell the combined might of the Dominion Confederacy was implied to be a little over or a little under 30,000 capital ships. I'd say that the Fed Alliance combined fleet would be at least equal to that, likely a little more given the casualties they suffered per battle. So if they all teamed up they would be able to muster a maximum force roughly half that of this scenario's invasion fleet.

Question 2: LoGH sensor capabilities seem to be quite advanced as they are usually able to track fleets lightseconds distant in real time under moderate jamming. That said some of the fluff suggests that under heavy jamming communications within fleets is performed via laser connection, which is likely why breaking up fleets is such a big deal, it prevents the portions from coordinating counter attacks by cutting lines of communication. I think given the performance of their sensors under such conditions would imply that without ECM their sensors would be at least equivalent to ST.
I recall Yang saying something to the effect of 'because of ECM tech we can't engage at longer ranges/with pinpoint accuracy'.

[Gunhead]

Point of note. We don't really know what would be G.Empire's "total war" economy potential. As far as we know they never committed their full production capability to fight the FPA. FPA committed far more resources to fight the GE but at it's peak it was a strain on FPA's resources and though it they were near a breaking point their economy held under the strain. As per op, GE now has all the production capability of FPA at their disposal in addition to what they already possessed before. It's notable that it took 10 years for the GE to construct the Iserlohn fortress which might give some indication of production capability though it's unknown how badly did this construction project strain the Empire. Considering there are several fortresses in the Empire and it seems Iserlohn is the last to be built I'd say it was well within GE's production capability. That said, I'm heavily leaning towards GE in terms of production power.

-Gunhead

[takemeout_totheblack]

Superior production capabilities is listed as one of the Galactic Empire's advantages, this includes its prowess in the art of making fuck-off huge fortresses with big nasty guns. That said it's the same issue that bit the Dominion in the ass, their enormous ship vomiting economy is on the other side of a single swirly glowy thing, should either side come up with a way to in some way hinder or close off said thingy, then attrition will start to take its toll. It's a pretty big if mind you.

I'll have to do some research but what kind of frontline industrial capabilities does the GE have? Like, can they mine metals and refine fuel via specialized ships?

[Gunhead]

I'll have to do some research but what kind of frontline industrial capabilities does the GE have? Like, can they mine metals and refine fuel via specialized ships?

No idea really. They do consider "energy" a resource in battle along with perishables like food and missiles, but there is no indication how they in fact produce all of it. We do know they place supply ships in reserve which I presume they use to replenish their stocks between battles. They have dedicated repair ships that are much larger than their main battleships. These apparently are also present in major engagements to repair damage to capital ships. Btw. I think if AQ tries to out attrition the GE it will end badly for them. These guys are used to mine warfare in the space scale and have means to disable space mines. Attacking their supply lines might work to an extent, but against Lohengram... well he's fully aware of the vulnerability of the supply tail so I'd imagine he wouldn't fall for the same trick twice.

-Gunhead

[Nephtys]

Here's some point of effective measurement: What is the relative size/volume of Earth Spacedock, vs one of the GE Hydrometal Stations? There's likely more large AQ facilities than there are massive LoGH structures, given the apparent rarity of major orbital infrastructure (which makes some sense given their apparent ease of atmospheric landing/flight).

[Gunhead]

Here's some point of effective measurement: What is the relative size/volume of Earth Spacedock, vs one of the GE Hydrometal Stations? There's likely more large AQ facilities than there are massive LoGH structures, given the apparent rarity of major orbital infrastructure (which makes some sense given their apparent ease of atmospheric landing/flight).

As far as I know lots starship construction is done in orbital or zero-g stations in LoGH. Not many are seen in the series. They make use of asteroids as supply bases for example. Thing is, how big are those AQ facilities. I think DS9 is quoted being 1500m across, which would mean it's about the same size as the mobile repair platforms GE moves with them. I'd have to check but from memory I remember four GE fortresses, Geiersburg, Iserlohn, Renterberg and Garmisch. First two are named as the biggest and most powerful. I'd have to check but I think it was said more exist in the GE territory. In addition they have no problem landing their capital ships on planets.

-Gunhead

[Gunhead]

I just checked. There are in fact 9 bases of varying size and capability from the GE capital to Geiersburg. One of them is the Renterberg others are either orbital or planetary bases. Garmisch is also mentioned but it apparently is not in the route from Odin to Geiersburg since it was captured by Kircheis and was used by Littenheim to secure the "hick" towns Kircheis was liberating from noble rule.
Anyway, there are several significant bases in the GE territory that can supply and maintain starships beyond the massive fortresses we see in the show.

-Gunhead

[takemeout_totheblack]

Also bear in mind that they seem to mine non-planetary masses for at least some of their economy. The FPA supply base Dyan-Han appears to be a 10km+ asteroid that's been completely hollowed out. It also bears mentioning that the Dyan-Han was common enough or at least obscure enough for the Imperials to be completely unaware of its absence when Merkatz took it as his base of operations.

[FTeik]

Concerning the GE's industrial capabilities, IIRC once they had moved the capital to Phezzan they started to build two new fortresses comparable to Iserlohn to guard the respective entrances to the Phezzan-corridor.

Of course they also said, that it would take ten years to build the new palace for the Kaiser and that that project alone would be a huge drain on the treasury.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well the Geiersberg and Iserlohn are something on the order of tens of trillions of tons from the anime, so they're pretty big. And given they could make Geirersberg mobile from reaction thrusters they have alot of resources to throw around. Potentially.

Whehter or not the UFP/Alpha Quadrant forces have more territory is up for debate (We don't quite know how many planets they have) but the ST side definitely has more population all told (Hell the Feds probably have more.)

Also ship numbers are a tad misleading . Depending on some sources (like the fleet file stuff) tactical antiship missiles can get into a hypothetical 'kilotons' range and an anti ship mine is in the 'megatons' range. Photorps and other weapons should be quite on par with that and could be a risk. Especially since Federation warp drive is quite precise.

Bear in mind I'm not convinced that either side would neccesarily start blowing the hell out of each other purely because of an accidental meeting and they don't recognize the other side - this isn't Palpy's empire or 40K. The Dominion (or Borg) might try conquest, but thats about it.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Also ship numbers are a tad misleading . Depending on some sources (like the fleet file stuff) tactical antiship missiles can get into a hypothetical 'kilotons' range and an anti ship mine is in the 'megatons' range. Photorps and other weapons should be quite on par with that and could be a risk. Especially since Federation warp drive is quite precise.

Bear in mind I'm not convinced that either side would neccesarily start blowing the hell out of each other purely because of an accidental meeting and they don't recognize the other side - this isn't Palpy's empire or 40K. The Dominion (or Borg) might try conquest, but thats about it.

The excuse in the OP to get the Feds into the fray was admittedly flimsy, but look at it this way: would the Galactic Empire tolerate yet another democracy-like entity in its political sphere, especially when the several billion former-democrats in the Empire begin to get itchy feet? The initial reason they went out to stomp the FPA was the fact that people were leaving the Empire and later when both sides were caught up in political dogma. The whole point of an Empire is to expand/rule its citizens, historically they haven't been the most tolerant Ideology when it comes to opposition. Especially when they have Alexander The Great IN SPACE Reinhard Von Lohengramm at the reigns. I'm not saying he's a war hungry tyrant or anything remotely like that, but he has often professed a need for an enemy.

As for the firepower issue I'd like to remind you that strategic missiles are stated to be in the gigaton range by the very same source, implying that an intermediary megaton-range warhead is very likely possible. Also LoGH seems to operate on the philosophy of Moar Dakka, so those kilotons are going to add up fast.

[Simon_Jester]

The LoGH Empire would be toward the high end of fierce, militaristic, and undemocratic states in SF... if there weren't so many SF natiosn which were rampaging murderbeasts that had no interest in diplomacy whatsoever.

Now, the Federation and its neighbors will surely be willing to negotiate a peace treaty in good faith, but unless they can knock Lohengramm back on his heels very hard, they may never get the opportunity. Reinhard wouldn't back down just because he got a fleet or two eaten by space eels or whatever.

[Darth Fanboy]

Regarding the OP: Are you putting the time for the LoGH setting after the Barlat Treaty or after the actual conquest of the FPA?

The presence, or lack thereof, of Yang Wenli and Reinhard's health will greatly factor into the response. If Yang Wenli is alive and in posession of Iserlohn, I think you'll have less of this fighting you are trying to shoehorn both sides into and more diplomacy and interaction between two very different human societies. The UFP or another AQ society might be of help in figuring out what makes space inhospitable aside from the corridors and figure out a way for direct transit, thus negating the importance of Phezzan and Iserlohn.

If you are looking to write a fanfic and create a reason for fighting, I think you would be better off changing the LoGH setting to years earlier and having the Goldenbaums still running the Empire, and having the Federation attempt to intervene on behalf of the faltering FPA. The Goldenbaums would probabyl be quite xenophobic as well, making for interesting reactions with the the other ST races. The reaction of Phezzani merchants to the Federation's supposedly moneyless society would be very interesting, and to see how they would try top exert control over AQ economies like they do in the LoGH setting would be interesting as well. I don't see Reinhard as being unable to coexist with other nations if the setting is so dramatically altered as it would be, especially given that the other society is a completely different universe which would otherwise be overlapping with his. Not to mention the Terraists would have a goddamn field day.

Really one of the things I like about LoGH was that it was a war between human socities, we like killing each other plenty enough not to need an outside threat for the saking of having a threat after all.

[Stofsk]

In terms of pewpews I don't know who will win. The LOGH guys have tens of thousands of ships so that would outnumber the Trek side. Trek has managed to get fleet sizes to that level but that seems to be exceptional circumstances, while fleets are typically that size for LOGH. But who has the better pewpews and engines and shit, who knows.

But more seriously, I can't see the UFP going to war with the Empire and instead would be inclined to seek peace with them.

[Simon_Jester]

The UFP would definitely want to seek peace, but the LOGH Empire is ruled first by a bunch of asshole aristocratic twits, then by Space Alexander the Great. So convincing them to quite shooting at you is going to be difficult- the FPA spent decades trying, but never got more than a temporary cease-fire while the Empire rebuilt its forces.

[Stofsk]

Yeah but it's hard to see the UFP fighting side-by-side with the fucking Jem'hadar like the OP's scenario dictates. And we don't really know how serious the FPA were at pursuing peace - actually, we kinda do, since when the opportunity came to pursue a peaceful resolution to the conflict for the first time it had started, the FPA chose instead to invade Empire territory. The UFP is far more dedicated to resolving disputes with words than anything else.

Also, if they learn about it, the UFP might be able to treat Reinhard of his mysterious illness and help him recover, since the UFP's medical technology seems far in advance of anything I saw in LOGH.

There is also the unknown factor, which works both ways - the Federation isn't about to invade the Empire, like ever, but the Empire would have to be fucking stupid to pick a fight with the entire Trek galaxy - without having picture perfect intel. Even with it, shit like the borg, Q, other goddamn god-beings and shit, would have to make any sane person go 'y'know, let's just stick to our own backyard instead, there's plenty of room here'. And if worse comes to worse, I am willing to bet the Federation if nothing else, would come up with a way to collapse the wormhole by lunchtime.

A more interesting scenario is what both sides could gain from cooperation rather than outright war. The Empire has significantly huge numbers of ships and a ruthless disregard for sustaining losses, but I am sure there is a lot of treknology that would appeal to them - and some which might give them pause. Transporters, replicators, holodecks, and such the like might convince them of the benefits of trade instead of fighting, but the trek side has cloaking devices and other stuff too like the potential for time-travel and experience in other weird shit which are game-changers.

The difference between the UFP and the Empire might even make Reinhard favourably inclined towards peace. While he's basically SPACE ALEXANDER and wants to rule over everything, at the same time he grew up in a notoriously corrupt society that has a ruthless disregard for its own citizenry, in the pursuit of a fruitless war. Their principal opponent, the FPA, are a bunch of incompetent morons who are also closet fascists - they pay lip service to democracy and are more or less hypocrites (this is one of the biggest themes of the show). If he actually encountered someone like Picard at the negotiating table, and someone like Sisko on the battlefield, I predict he'd be impressed by the Federation's sunny idealistic society that produces people who will try their utmost to be his friend but fight tenaciously in defence of their society. And who aren't hypocrites. Or corrupt.

[Darth Fanboy]

But the FPA invaded for political reasons, to try and win re-election and the OP puts the first contact between the two after the disastrous invasion attempt and after the Imperial counterattack I don't think anyone in the FPA would decline a peace offering, they were incredibly generous to get the Barlat treaty as it was.

The OP also puts the anomaly in the Iserlohn Corridor, which means not just the Empire going up against the UFP in any conflict scenario but also Iserlohn Fortres, and depending on the time and place that means different things. After re-reading the OP, the OP has unfortunately put the setting in New Imperial Year 2, which I believe means that Reinhard is either dead or will be dying soon (I can't rmeember all of the specific dates but he marries Hilde in New Imperial Year 1 and dies shortly thereafter as his disease progresses.) and leave the idea of ocnstitutional reforms up to the Empress. Julian Mintz is either in charge of Iserlohn with Frederica Greenhill who will be highly likely pursue successful relations with the UFP if in the position as head of the Iserlohn government, or on Heinessen.

So it looks like either way diplomacy is going to be more likely than any kind of war, especially given the war weariness of both sides. More likely, you would see someone like Müller or perhaps Mittermeyer himself lead a peaceful expedition to learn and explore. Actually Mecklinger would be a good choice for that.

Now if you are trying to shoehorn a war in you are more likely to get a war if you use the Goldenbaums and move the LoGH setting to during Reinhard's rise, or perhaps switch everything up or use the Mirror universe.

[Stofsk]

Ok maybe I'm being pedantic. I suppose most people who would participate in this thread have watched the series so the use of spoiler tags is not necessary.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Clarifications on OP scenario:
1) The original scenario takes place after the fall of the FPASpoiler

but before the death of Yang Wen-Li,

so Reinhard isn't quite showing the symptoms of his connective tissue disease beyond a slight fever and a few dizzy spells.

2) The anomaly is at an Imperial assessable portion of the Iserlohn Corridor, so Miracle Yang would have to go out of his way to stir things up for the Empire.

3) The only reason The Empire is even considering invasion is due to an official declaration of war from the Dominion (First Contact with between The Dominion and the UFP being a prime example of their default diplomatic process) and not the UFP or their buddies. The Empire just doesn't know any better and will likely attack any Federation ships after the clusterfuck first contact.

So even if the UFP sues for peace, The Empire is still gunning for a foothold in the ST galaxy in order to fight The Dominion. But how long could a peace last between the UFP and a fundamentally aggressive entity like The Empire?