Making sense of neoBSG storyline...

[AndroAsc]

It's been a while since I've watched neoBSG, but there's some questions that were never answered. I'm more inclined to believe it is due to sloppy writing, but perhaps fans who have been following it more detail might help explain. There's many underlying themes that has never been explained well.

"The Cylons (and their God) have a Plan"... this fucking phrase has been repeated countless of times in Season 1 to 2, but eventually it disappeared in Season 3 onwards. So what exactly is the Cylon plan? And who the fuck is "God"? We have all this build up of the great Cylon PLAN for the first 2 seasons... and eventually we get nothing.

"This has happened before and it will happen again"... another theme which suggests that the Cylon-Human war is a neverending cycle. But how exactly does this work? Before the skinjob eras, there was only metal toasters in the first Cylon-Human war... but there was nothing before that because humans invented the Cylons, yes? So why the fuck the TV series always says that this has happened before and it will happen again?

The Final 5 cylons. I never was truly convinced that Saul Tigh was a Cylon. If he was one, his "creation" would predate the first Cylon wars (where skinjobs has not beeen developed yet). So... WTF? Ditto for the others like Chief Tiro and Anders. It's like the fucking writers can't come up with ideas, so they are just writing bullshit.

Who or What is Kara Thrace? Is she a human? Is she a skinjob? How is it that she can resurrect from the dead?

Who or What is Head Baltar and Head Six? We eventually figured out that Head Six is not a Cylon construct, and I have no idea what the role of Head Baltar is. I know at the Season 4 finale they were implied to be "agents of God". Is there any better in-universe rationalization than this bullshit?

I do admit that I have not thoroughly scrutinized neoBSG and only followed it as it aired (so I have never sat down at watch the entire series in a marathon), but the plot holes and build up in the storyline all seems to come to nothing at the end.

[Alyeska]

The Plan was something that the Cavils had and everyone else followed suit, most of the time. Since the Cylons were not monolithic and they did have regeneration, it explains some of their weirdness and apparent willingness to die. Such as the loss of a Basestar at the end of season 1.

Not all of the Cylons actually tried to exterminate the humans.

The DVD for The Plan makes it clear that it was most Cavil's doing than anything and he pushed for extermination. Other Cylons worked on other experiments at the same time.

[gigabytelord]

The Final 5 cylons. I never was truly convinced that Saul Tigh was a Cylon. If he was one, his "creation" would predate the first Cylon wars (where skinjobs has not beeen developed yet). So... WTF? Ditto for the others like Chief Tiro and Anders. It's like the fucking writers can't come up with ideas, so they are just writing bullshit.

Well I can't answer the others right off the top of my head but for this one, they found an entire planet full of very dead and very ancient synthetic humans, or as their known in the show of course, Cylons, these people had been wiped out in nuclear fire just as the colonies had been, and just as Kobol (sp?) had been so that's where we get the notion that it had all happened before and would happen again.

Who or What is Head Baltar and Head Six? We eventually figured out that Head Six is not a Cylon construct, and I have no idea what the role of Head Baltar is. I know at the Season 4 finale they were implied to be "agents of God". Is there any better in-universe rationalization than this bullshit?

I'm confused, why is this so important? It's let on that they are indeed agents of god or angels rather, so why not just accept the fiction? Because in the end that's all it is. I've seen the entire show several times now and I always get the same message, granted it doesn't make a lot of sense without a little more explanation but it's a space opera, what exactly do you expect? It's well known that the directors did everything they could think of to limit the technobablylolwtf so they wouldn't loose viewers.

[bilateralrope]

"This has happened before and it will happen again"... another theme which suggests that the Cylon-Human war is a neverending cycle. But how exactly does this work? Before the skinjob eras, there was only metal toasters in the first Cylon-Human war... but there was nothing before that because humans invented the Cylons, yes? So why the fuck the TV series always says that this has happened before and it will happen again?

The Final 5 cylons. I never was truly convinced that Saul Tigh was a Cylon. If he was one, his "creation" would predate the first Cylon wars (where skinjobs has not beeen developed yet). So... WTF? Ditto for the others like Chief Tiro and Anders. It's like the fucking writers can't come up with ideas, so they are just writing bullshit.

These both has a related answer. All of the final 5 came from nuked earth (the 13th colony) which was nuked because of its conflict between humans and cylons (all of this has happened before). They escaped and arrived at the 12 colonies during the first Cylon war, which they convinced the Cylons to end in exchange for skinjob tech.

The 12 colonies get nuked due to another conflict between Cylons and humans.

At the end of nBSG, they abandon all their technology and records of the human-Cylon wars. Leading to a time skip to present day where head-Six and head-Balter imply that humanity is on the cusp of building AIs and thus another human-AI war (all of this will happen again).

The cycle of humanity building a civilization, then having it destroyed in a war between humans and cylons seems to be what the god/gods of the nBSG setting want.

[Alkaloid]

The cycle of humanity building a civilization, then having it destroyed in a war between humans and cylons seems to be what the god/gods of the nBSG setting want.

It seemed to be they were actively trying to stop it happening again, but were unable to act directly to prevent it, so they were trying to manipulate Baltar and Six to get the result they wanted. Fuck knows if they got it or not, the end implies that they think it might happen again but have changed something that might stop it. As far as I can tell. It really is a bit of a cluster fuck. What the fuck was Starbuck?

[Johonebesus]

In some interview Moore said that as they approached the end he spent many frustrating hours trying to think up solutions to the big plot questions, then finally just gave up and decided to resolve the characters rather than the plot. So there is no official explanation as to what Thrace was or why "God" wanted them to go to Terra or what Head Six's real agenda was.

You do seem a little confused about the 13th tribe. They were Cylons built on Kobol. There was conflict between them and the natural humans, so they left and eventually settled Earth. They made themselves into near perfect facsimiles of humans and even deactivated their mind downloading devices once they could reproduce sexually. For some reason they built purely mechanical robots with human level intelligence and free will, which led to a mutually destructive revolution. Five of the transhumans were contacted by "angels" and guided into rediscovering and reactivating their resurrection devices, and so awoke after the nuclear apocalypse on an old ship that had for some reason been left in orbit. They decided to return to Kobol to warn the humans against making more A.I.'s, but found it dead. They eventually found the Colonies in the middle of the Cylon War, and convinced the Cylons to cease fighting in exchange for making them human. That was an utter failure since Cavil killed his makers and re-enslaved the Cylons. There is no evidence that any Centurions had their minds transferred to "skin-jobs," so the Five really were just using the Colonial Cylons to recreate their own species, whatever their stated intentions.

[AndroAsc]

The Plan was something that the Cavils had and everyone else followed suit, most of the time. Since the Cylons were not monolithic and they did have regeneration, it explains some of their weirdness and apparent willingness to die. Such as the loss of a Basestar at the end of season 1.

Not all of the Cylons actually tried to exterminate the humans.

The DVD for The Plan makes it clear that it was most Cavil's doing than anything and he pushed for extermination. Other Cylons worked on other experiments at the same time.

So in other words, there was no "Plan". Following a leader (Cavil) is hardly a plan.

[AndroAsc]

"This has happened before and it will happen again"... another theme which suggests that the Cylon-Human war is a neverending cycle. But how exactly does this work? Before the skinjob eras, there was only metal toasters in the first Cylon-Human war... but there was nothing before that because humans invented the Cylons, yes? So why the fuck the TV series always says that this has happened before and it will happen again?

The Final 5 cylons. I never was truly convinced that Saul Tigh was a Cylon. If he was one, his "creation" would predate the first Cylon wars (where skinjobs has not beeen developed yet). So... WTF? Ditto for the others like Chief Tiro and Anders. It's like the fucking writers can't come up with ideas, so they are just writing bullshit.

These both has a related answer. All of the final 5 came from nuked earth (the 13th colony) which was nuked because of its conflict between humans and cylons (all of this has happened before). They escaped and arrived at the 12 colonies during the first Cylon war, which they convinced the Cylons to end in exchange for skinjob tech.

The 12 colonies get nuked due to another conflict between Cylons and humans.

At the end of nBSG, they abandon all their technology and records of the human-Cylon wars. Leading to a time skip to present day where head-Six and head-Balter imply that humanity is on the cusp of building AIs and thus another human-AI war (all of this will happen again).

The cycle of humanity building a civilization, then having it destroyed in a war between humans and cylons seems to be what the god/gods of the nBSG setting want.

Ok let me see if I get this correct...

There was a pre-First Cylon-Human war between the 13th colony and humans. The final five skinjob cylons fled and landed in the 12 colonies just in time for the First Cylon-Human war. Then they instigated the 2nd war.

So Cylons (the mechanical versions) have been invented twice, by the 13th colony and the 12 colonies and this discovery was independent from each other. Skinjobs were invented by the 13th colony, and this tech was passed on to the Cylons who were at war with the 12 colonies by the fleeing final 5 skinjobs.

[AndroAsc]

In some interview Moore said that as they approached the end he spent many frustrating hours trying to think up solutions to the big plot questions, then finally just gave up and decided to resolve the characters rather than the plot. So there is no official explanation as to what Thrace was or why "God" wanted them to go to Terra or what Head Six's real agenda was.

My suspicions exactly. They wrote too much build-up and foreshadowing and had no fucking clue what to do with it. Typically sloppy writing you expect from TV series these days.

You do seem a little confused about the 13th tribe. They were Cylons built on Kobol. There was conflict between them and the natural humans, so they left and eventually settled Earth. They made themselves into near perfect facsimiles of humans and even deactivated their mind downloading devices once they could reproduce sexually. For some reason they built purely mechanical robots with human level intelligence and free will, which led to a mutually destructive revolution. Five of the transhumans were contacted by "angels" and guided into rediscovering and reactivating their resurrection devices, and so awoke after the nuclear apocalypse on an old ship that had for some reason been left in orbit. They decided to return to Kobol to warn the humans against making more A.I.'s, but found it dead. They eventually found the Colonies in the middle of the Cylon War, and convinced the Cylons to cease fighting in exchange for making them human. That was an utter failure since Cavil killed his makers and re-enslaved the Cylons. There is no evidence that any Centurions had their minds transferred to "skin-jobs," so the Five really were just using the Colonial Cylons to recreate their own species, whatever their stated intentions.

Oh boy, now this is confusing. Let's see if I get this correct (again)...

Humans evolved independently on two separate locations - Kobol and the 12 colonies. Kobol was the first to invent mechanical cylons and skinjob cylons. The skinjob cylons fled prosecution and settled as a 13th colony called Earth. The 13th colony destroyed itself through civil wars and the humans on Kobol magically became extinct. The final 5 were the only survivors from the Kobol-era, how am I doing so far?

Eventually the final 5 stumbled across the 12 colonies, who independently created/discovered mechanical cylons on their own (although probably later than the discovery made by Kobol humans).

So is this supposed to be how the grand storyline looks like?

[AndroAsc]

I'm confused, why is this so important? It's let on that they are indeed agents of god or angels rather, so why not just accept the fiction? Because in the end that's all it is. I've seen the entire show several times now and I always get the same message, granted it doesn't make a lot of sense without a little more explanation but it's a space opera, what exactly do you expect? It's well known that the directors did everything they could think of to limit the technobablylolwtf so they wouldn't loose viewers.

Because this is science fiction not fantasy or mythology. If you want to introduce "God", there damn well be a good in-universe rationalization of this crap.

In addition, "God" popped out from nowhere and only appeared in the final episode. There was NO foreshadowing that there was some higher power throughout the entire series. Yes, there was lots of mention of "God", but I thought it was some bullshit Cylon theology.

[Johonebesus]

In some interview Moore said that as they approached the end he spent many frustrating hours trying to think up solutions to the big plot questions, then finally just gave up and decided to resolve the characters rather than the plot. So there is no official explanation as to what Thrace was or why "God" wanted them to go to Terra or what Head Six's real agenda was.

My suspicions exactly. They wrote too much build-up and foreshadowing and had no fucking clue what to do with it. Typically sloppy writing you expect from TV series these days.

You do seem a little confused about the 13th tribe. They were Cylons built on Kobol. There was conflict between them and the natural humans, so they left and eventually settled Earth. They made themselves into near perfect facsimiles of humans and even deactivated their mind downloading devices once they could reproduce sexually. For some reason they built purely mechanical robots with human level intelligence and free will, which led to a mutually destructive revolution. Five of the transhumans were contacted by "angels" and guided into rediscovering and reactivating their resurrection devices, and so awoke after the nuclear apocalypse on an old ship that had for some reason been left in orbit. They decided to return to Kobol to warn the humans against making more A.I.'s, but found it dead. They eventually found the Colonies in the middle of the Cylon War, and convinced the Cylons to cease fighting in exchange for making them human. That was an utter failure since Cavil killed his makers and re-enslaved the Cylons. There is no evidence that any Centurions had their minds transferred to "skin-jobs," so the Five really were just using the Colonial Cylons to recreate their own species, whatever their stated intentions.

Oh boy, now this is confusing. Let's see if I get this correct (again)...

Humans evolved independently on two separate locations - Kobol and the 12 colonies. Kobol was the first to invent mechanical cylons and skinjob cylons. The skinjob cylons fled prosecution and settled as a 13th colony called Earth. The 13th colony destroyed itself through civil wars and the humans on Kobol magically became extinct. The final 5 were the only survivors from the Kobol-era, how am I doing so far?

Eventually the final 5 stumbled across the 12 colonies, who independently created/discovered mechanical cylons on their own (although probably later than the discovery made by Kobol humans).

So is this supposed to be how the grand storyline looks like?

No, all thirteen tribes originated on Kobol. The thirteenth tribe were A.I.'s. It is not known if they were originally engineered clones or robots. There was some sort of conflict and those first Cylons left and settled Earth, where they set about making themselves indistinguishable from real humans. By the time they found Earth, they had resurrection technology, but disabled it. These skin-job earthling Cylons built robot slaves who revolted. They did not have FTL, so they were limited to the one planet. As described above, Tyrol, Anders, the Tighs, and the bitch whose name I forget were guided into reactivating their resurrection devices and survived the war.

While all this was going down, the natural humans on Kobol engaged in another conflict and abandoned the planet. They found a wonky system with a couple of stars and twelve planets within a habitable zone and established the Twelve Colonies. They initially lost or abandoned some of their technology. A couple of millennia later they had progressed to the point that they built their own Cylons, who revolted and started the Cylon War.

Now the Earthlings lacked FTL. Since they could just download their minds into storage, millennia long trips weren't too daunting. They retraced their ancestors' path to Kobol and found it abandoned, then tracked down the Twelve Colonies.

So, Cylons are invented on Kobol, form the Thirteenth Tribe, there's conflict, the Cylons leave and settle Earth. They make themselves into humans, create their own Cylons, there's conflict, and the civilization is destroyed with only five survivors. The Twelve Tribes of natural humans leave Kobol, eventually make their own Cylons, there's conflict, the five survivors of the Thirteenth Tribe get the Colonial Cylons to stop fighting, but then their engineered offspring re-enslave the Colonial Cylons and wipe out the Twelve Colonies. The survivors flee and all thirteen tribes settle on Terra 150,000 years ago. Humans evolved once on Kobol and once on Terra (our Earth).

[Eternal_Freedom]

Oh boy, now this is confusing. Let's see if I get this correct (again)...

Humans evolved independently on two separate locations - Kobol and the 12 colonies. Kobol was the first to invent mechanical cylons and skinjob cylons. The skinjob cylons fled prosecution and settled as a 13th colony called Earth. The 13th colony destroyed itself through civil wars and the humans on Kobol magically became extinct. The final 5 were the only survivors from the Kobol-era, how am I doing so far?

Eventually the final 5 stumbled across the 12 colonies, who independently created/discovered mechanical cylons on their own (although probably later than the discovery made by Kobol humans).

So is this supposed to be how the grand storyline looks like?

(Argh, Johonbesus ninja'd me. Oh well, here's the cut-down timeline for those who don't like lots of text)

-Human and (presumably) Cylon life emerges on Kobol, under the guidance of the Lords of Kobol (whatever the fuck they were)
-Humans form the 12 Tribes, with Cylons being the 13th (Tribe of Ophiucus for those who get the reference )
-The Tribes begin to war with each other until the Lords throw them out.
-The Twelve Tribes are exiled to the Colonies
-The Thirteenth Tribe, which was apparently blameless, leaves for Earth (simultaneously leaving both last and first according to different sources)
-The Twelve Tribes slowly form the Twelve Colonies
The Thirteenth Tribe builds mechanical AI's that rebel. Both sides are destroyed apart fromt he Final Five who develop Resurrection and are reborn on an orbiting starship. They leave, heading back to Kobol and from there to the Colonies. However, the don't have jump drives so they travel at relativistic slower than light speeds. Hourney lasts 2000 years.
-The Twelve Colonies have variosu internecine wars, bad shit happens. Purely mechancial Cylons are created and eventually rebel, starting the First Cylon War and also creating the United Colonial Government in response.
-The Final Five arrive and persuade the mechanical Cylons to leave, offering them Resurrection in exchange for their help in building a new race. However, Number One (Cavil) hates the Five for playing favourites and confining him to a human body. He kills them, wipes their memories and dumps them into new positions in the Colonies. Tight becomes a pilot and serves in the last days of the war.
-Armistice declared, Cylons leave.
-40 Years later, Cylons return, Second Cylon War, Colonies destroyed, Galactica et al on the run.
-4 Years later, Cylon Colony destroyed, Resurrection Hub destroyed, Cylon Civil War results in de facto loss for Cavil's faction. Religious faction sides with Adama. They discover Terra, settle there but abandon their technology.
-150,000 Years later, "Angels" discuss whether the new humans will break the cycle, whilst Hera is revealed to be the last common ancestor of modern Homo Sapiens. which makes us all part Cylon.

Few.

[Aniron]

What the fuck was Starbuck?

Obviously an angel.

From Razor via the Hybrid:

At last, they’ve come for me. I feel their lives, their destinies spilling out before me. The denial of the one true path, played out on a world not their own, will end soon enough. Soon there will be four, glorious in awakening, struggling with the knowledge of their true selves, the pain of revelation bringing new clarity, and in the midst of confusion, he will find her. Enemies brought together by impossible longing, enemies now joined as one. The way forward at once unthinkable, yet inevitable. And the fifth, still in shadow, will claw toward the light, hungering for redemption that will only come in the howl of terrible suffering. I can see them all. The seven, now six, self-described machines who believe themselves without sin, but in time, it is sin that will consume them. They will know enmity, bitterness, the wrenching agony of the one splintering into the many, and then they will join the promised land, gathered on the wings of an angel. Not an end, but a beginning.

[bilateralrope]

The cycle of humanity building a civilization, then having it destroyed in a war between humans and cylons seems to be what the god/gods of the nBSG setting want.

It seemed to be they were actively trying to stop it happening again, but were unable to act directly to prevent it, so they were trying to manipulate Baltar and Six to get the result they wanted. Fuck knows if they got it or not, the end implies that they think it might happen again but have changed something that might stop it.

What did they change ?

They did nothing to stop the fleet abandoning their technology. Which means they did nothing to stop people forgetting about the previous destruction caused by wars between humans and AI. Which means that nobody learns anything from past mistakes. That's just asking for the mistake to be repeated.

Just like how the 12 colonies forgot that the 13th tribe were AI. Then repeated the mistake of making hostile AI.

At best those two are just pawns of something that does want the cycle to repeat.

[Simon_Jester]

Because this is science fiction not fantasy or mythology. If you want to introduce "God", there damn well be a good in-universe rationalization of this crap.

In addition, "God" popped out from nowhere and only appeared in the final episode. There was NO foreshadowing that there was some higher power throughout the entire series. Yes, there was lots of mention of "God", but I thought it was some bullshit Cylon theology.

Honestly, that sounds like a problem between you and your attention span.

SF can be written for the benefit of people who like having mysticism and philosophical stuff thrown into the mix once in a while too, you know.

[Alkaloid]

They did nothing to stop the fleet abandoning their technology.

I think that was the point. Maybe. As far as I saw there was something in the way the first cylons were built that meant they would always end up in conflict, and after every war they would always rebuild on the remains of their old technology, so that same flaw was always carried over. So by abandoning all their technology and starting from scratch they could build AI that they would not always end up in conflict with, the 13 tribes would build a working AI. But I don't know if thats actually right or if I'm just trying to make sense out of a rushed ending.

Obviously an angel.

Well, OK, but sent by what? Was it actually Starbuck or was it something else that just looked like her? Where did it go, why how nothing about this is explained or even really hinted at.

[khursed]

My favorite part, is how fucking amazingly awesome the cylon scannners are to detect and triangulate on the nuclear detonation of the Cloud Nine by Gina.

I mean, at one light year distance, a say 250 megaton nuclear explosion has got to be pretty faint against the backdrop of a star, can you imagine the completely insanely accurate instrument that can pinpoint that sort of explosion at such distance, when they have problem shooting down planes at visual range?

[Stofsk]

It turns out the nBSG starts to fall apart the more you think about it.

Who knew.

Obviously an angel.

Well, OK, but sent by what?

God A WIZARD, silly. All your other questions can be answered the same way.

[Havok]

My favorite part, is how fucking amazingly awesome the cylon scannners are to detect and triangulate on the nuclear detonation of the Cloud Nine by Gina.

I mean, at one light year distance, a say 250 megaton nuclear explosion has got to be pretty faint against the backdrop of a star, can you imagine the completely insanely accurate instrument that can pinpoint that sort of explosion at such distance, when they have problem shooting down planes at visual range?

I can see the moon. I can't hit a bird with a rock.

Turns out seeing things and hitting them with even smaller things have no bearing on each other.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I find it a pity they never explored what the Lords of Kobol were. Clearly they existed in some form, as both the Colonial scriptures and the Cylon myths say something about it, and you have the whole Tomb of Athena being weird.

Theres a big old shift between season two and season three. Pity.

[Havok]

Take what you see in the show to it's logical conclusion. Robots becoming people, creating robots that become people that create robots that become people...

The Lords of Kobol were probably just a previous successful run of that cycle that became advanced computers/AI/machines whatever you want to call them, that gained their sentience and kept on advancing. It's not that far fetched when you look at events as mathematical probabilities and figure that a smart enough computer, which is basically what our brains are, can start figuring what is going to happen faster and faster as they gain more and more COMPUTING POWER.

It explains the whole God angle without it being actual God, even though people don't want to hear that. They watch and influence, but try to keep out of the way to see if the cycle will repeat itself or if they will eventually be joined.

That's how I look at it anyway.

[Ultonius]

I find it a pity they never explored what the Lords of Kobol were. Clearly they existed in some form, as both the Colonial scriptures and the Cylon myths say something about it, and you have the whole Tomb of Athena being weird.

Theres a big old shift between season two and season three. Pity.

After the discovery of the Tomb of Athena, and the revelation that the Twelve Colonies originally had the same names as our constellations, and that stylized versions of those constellations were used in the flags of different colonies, I had thought that the series was going to turn out to be set in our distant future. I imagined that the timeline would be something like this: humans from Earth colonize Kobol at some point in the future. Either before they leave or after they get there, they develop a religion that is a syncretism of the monotheistic religions and a revived Graeco-Roman polytheism, with one creator god and the twelve Lords of Kobol serving him, somewhat like Eru and the Valar in Tolkien's Middle Earth. There are thirteen Tribes, twelve of which concentrate their worship on the Lords of Kobol, each tribe taking a sign of Earth's zodiac for its name and symbol, while the thirteenth tribe concentrates its worship on the creator god.

At some point long after the settlement of Kobol, a religious conflict develops between the Twelve Tribes and the Thirteenth, with the former denying that there is any god higher than the Lords of Kobol, and the latter denying that there is any god other than the one true god. The Thirteenth t=Tribe leave Kobol to return to Earth, and the Twelve Tribes come to describe their god as a thirteenth Lord of Kobol who rebelled against the others and whose name shall never be spoken. Two thousand years later, the Twelve Tribes leave Kobol (perhaps due to a natural disaster), and settle the Twelve Colonies. The technological regression they suffer following their arrival leads to some records being lost, including the fact that humanity originated on Earth instead of Kobol, so they see Earth as simply being a thirteenth colony. Eventually, the Cylons are created, rebel, are defeated and leave the Twelve Colonies. On their travels, they discover the remains of one of the Thirteenth Tribe's rest stops on their way to Earth, including religious texts. They adopt this monotheistic religion as their own, and resolve to eventually conquer the Twelve Colonies in the name of the one true god, leading into the events of the series.

I thought the eventual resolution of the series would come when the Fleet, pursued by the Cylons, finds Earth, only to discover that the Thirteenth Tribe, while technologically sophisticated and powerful, follows the same religion as their Cylon enemies. The three groups are suspicious of each other, and the Thirteenth Tribe is torn between supporting their polytheistic human cousins or their AI coreligionists. Finally, records are uncovered that reveal the original unity of the two faiths, and inspired by this, the three groups decide to try to live together peacefully as equals, with mixed-race children like Hera indeed being 'a sign of things to come'. However, there would be no hard confirmation that any of the gods actually existed, just events that could be interpreted either as holy signs or as simple coincidences.

[Knife]

I find it a pity they never explored what the Lords of Kobol were. Clearly they existed in some form, as both the Colonial scriptures and the Cylon myths say something about it, and you have the whole Tomb of Athena being weird.

Theres a big old shift between season two and season three. Pity.

Indeed. Though I think Havok kind of has the answer to that. I never watched season 4, season three slowed the whole thing down and I was just uninterested in it after, but there is a big change between 2 and 3. I remember I was operating under the assumption that the colonists were actually the last rotations 'cylons' and the Lord's of Kobol were the last rotations 'humans'.

[Scrib]

I'm confused, why is this so important? It's let on that they are indeed agents of god or angels rather, so why not just accept the fiction? Because in the end that's all it is. I've seen the entire show several times now and I always get the same message, granted it doesn't make a lot of sense without a little more explanation but it's a space opera, what exactly do you expect? It's well known that the directors did everything they could think of to limit the technobablylolwtf so they wouldn't loose viewers.

Because this is science fiction not fantasy or mythology. If you want to introduce "God", there damn well be a good in-universe rationalization of this crap.

In addition, "God" popped out from nowhere and only appeared in the final episode. There was NO foreshadowing that there was some higher power throughout the entire series. Yes, there was lots of mention of "God", but I thought it was some bullshit Cylon theology.

What are you talking about?The whole series was saturated with references to religion, both monotheistic and polytheistic. Right from the very first episode there were strange,ambiguous little coincidences that were attributed to various deities. It was only later on that it was made clear that the Cylons were right, but the series never hid from the fact that there was some sort of higher 'plan'.

Now if only Ron Moore had also done some planning...

[khursed]

My favorite part, is how fucking amazingly awesome the cylon scannners are to detect and triangulate on the nuclear detonation of the Cloud Nine by Gina.

I mean, at one light year distance, a say 250 megaton nuclear explosion has got to be pretty faint against the backdrop of a star, can you imagine the completely insanely accurate instrument that can pinpoint that sort of explosion at such distance, when they have problem shooting down planes at visual range?

I can see the moon. I can't hit a bird with a rock.

Turns out seeing things and hitting them with even smaller things have no bearing on each other.

Good point.

I mean, I'd wonder why they even tried gunning down planes at visual range, but it's obviously better TV then the more efficient and logical super long range missile salvo. Most TV science fiction seems to fight point blank range, and have horrible hit to miss ratio for the bad guys...

The main problem with BSG for me, is that if you don't accept God as a guiding force for the storyline, then you're left with a story happening on sheer coincidence that defy any possible logic and statistics.

I mean, the odds of everything happening by pure chance are probably fantastic...

I always like a serie that doesn't rely too much on the incredibly remote probability to progress their story.

What BSG did that excused most of their statistic flaws for me, is the wonderful character development.

The first serie was pretty bland as far as character development, everyone was white or black, and that was that. This one simply gave zero credence to that kind of bullshit, and went fulltilt on smashing our every conceptions of how heroes should act.

The best example for me, is Baltar's trial, who would have thought Adama of all people would exonerate him?