What If: United States Is Transported Back in Time to 1776?

[Skywalker_T-65]

What the hell are you talking about?

Do you have some notion that the Chinese race has this automatic magic 'screw over America' power that must be removed by dominating the country they occupy? And what's this about "sold our souls," do you seriously think that there's anything about the trade relationship between the US and China that isn't just a scaled-up copy of the US relationship with dozens of other countries?

For that matter, it's not like they didn't spend the 19th and early 20th centuries at the mercy of foreign conquerors anyway, and that hardly stopped them from becoming an economic powerhouse in the 21st century.

Hardly, I was just pointing out that the more radical people would feel that way. I fudged up slightly there when I said that is what I would do...what I would actually do is try and help the Chinese along and stop them from going all Commie in a couple centuries, and try and get them to be more an ally than a rival. I realize that they were at the mercy of foreigners anyway, but they were not exactly trying to help the Chinese in any way. I figured that some Americans would want to do the same thing, and the others would want to pull an Iraq and go to 'spread democracy to the ignorant savages'. As for the 'sold our souls' thing, that is a reference to the fact that most of our debt right now is to China. If they actually wanted to they could hold that over our collective heads (obviously not in this case, but in real life).

My post didn't come out quite like I meant it too...my thought-process doesn't always translate well That being said, I'll be more careful from now on.

[LaCroix]

Seriously, if they are that concerned with Communism, they'd have a message that is directed to a certain Misters Marx and Engels and tell them about some problems that occurred during the implementation of their ideas, with a written date to deliver on them.

Also, the simple fact that the USA was transferred back in time will virtually guarantee that history will be changed.

Besides the point, modern capitalism is dead - you'd need to restart all manufacturing in-country, because everybody else would take decades to develop even the infrastructure to even think about producing stuff there. The dollar would probably crash hard to zero and people would be on rations and barter trade for a few years.

The only colonial thing I really do think will happen is that the US would create some outpost in some seemingly worthless, almost deserted deserts in the Middle East that they bought from the Osmanians for a big chunk of the US gold reserves.

[Simon_Jester]

Hardly, I was just pointing out that the more radical people would feel that way. I fudged up slightly there when I said that is what I would do...what I would actually do is try and help the Chinese along and stop them from going all Commie in a couple centuries, and try and get them to be more an ally than a rival. I realize that they were at the mercy of foreigners anyway, but they were not exactly trying to help the Chinese in any way. I figured that some Americans would want to do the same thing, and the others would want to pull an Iraq and go to 'spread democracy to the ignorant savages'. As for the 'sold our souls' thing, that is a reference to the fact that most of our debt right now is to China. If they actually wanted to they could hold that over our collective heads (obviously not in this case, but in real life).

My post didn't come out quite like I meant it too...my thought-process doesn't always translate well That being said, I'll be more careful from now on.

Not starving and dying takes precedence over simplistic jingoist foreign policy. This seems to me like another version of the "but how can we form a government-in-exile without a judge to swear in the new chief executive?" silliness. Does anyone here really think that the average American stranded in 1776 would care more about 'picking up where we left off' in an Iraq that is now an Ottoman province, or somehow establishing control over a China that is still ruled from a massive imperial complex complete with harem, than they do about just making sure they don't all starve and die for lack of things they used to import?

When the routine system of politics and government breaks down, people are not fools; they do not sit around doing nothing out of a misplaced sense of legalism.

[Chirios]

The only colonial thing I really do think will happen is that the US would create some outpost in some seemingly worthless, almost deserted deserts in the Middle East that they bought from the Osmanians for a big chunk of the US gold reserves.

Maybe. I think once the oil fields in Texas are restored it might become politically untenable to talk about going abroad. People will be like: "They took err jerrbs!"

[LaCroix]

The only colonial thing I really do think will happen is that the US would create some outpost in some seemingly worthless, almost deserted deserts in the Middle East that they bought from the Osmanians for a big chunk of the US gold reserves.

Maybe. I think once the oil fields in Texas are restored it might become politically untenable to talk about going abroad. People will be like: "They took err jerrbs!"

Come on, what now? Is the continent switched or jsut the buildings and people?
First we talk about the 'modern' continent is now full of untouched ressources and only inhabited by Natives, now the 1770-is americas suddenly sits on untouched ressources. Which way is it?

[CaptainChewbacca]

I thought it was the modern continent, because if we're only moving the surface then we lose things like electricity and plumbing. The texas oilfields aren't regenerated, but the gulf fields are.

[Chirios]

The only colonial thing I really do think will happen is that the US would create some outpost in some seemingly worthless, almost deserted deserts in the Middle East that they bought from the Osmanians for a big chunk of the US gold reserves.

Maybe. I think once the oil fields in Texas are restored it might become politically untenable to talk about going abroad. People will be like: "They took err jerrbs!"

Come on, what now? Is the continent switched or jsut the buildings and people?
First we talk about the 'modern' continent is now full of untouched ressources and only inhabited by Natives, now the 1770-is americas suddenly sits on untouched ressources. Which way is it?

My apologies. The continent is switched (or at least the USA section of the continent); I wasn't thinking when I posted.

[Simon_Jester]

So, to make sure I understand, 1776!USA comes into 2012 with plenty of oil; 2012!USA comes into 1776 with very little oil, right?

[Chirios]

So, to make sure I understand, 1776!USA comes into 2012 with plenty of oil; 2012!USA comes into 1776 with very little oil, right?

Yes. The entire 1776! section, and everything attached to it (including buildings, docks, people etc.) is teleported into 2012, replacing the 2012! version and everything attached to it, including buildings docks, sewer systems, people etc)..

I was thinking about something else when I wrote the above post. I'm sorry for causing confusion.

[Broomstick]

He is some kind of Algonkin (that's what he said when I couldn't make anything out of his tribe name),and told us that 'cigag' (funnily I do remember that spelling) is the word for 'Animal that urinates' = Skunk, and '-o' means 'The place of', it got slightly misspelled by the ones who wrote it down. He says his tribe is still laughing about that joke their ancestors pulled off, and that the curse has partly succeeded, in a way.

The group of tribes/languages is usually spelled Algonquin (yours is a decent phonetic spelling) and it comprises a lot of tribes, including most of those that lived near where Chicago is presently.

Most of the words that entered English from the natives underwent significant spelling/pronunciation changes, and many in the upper Midwest went through French first, then into English, which just made it even worse.

[Pelranius]

Considering that the American demand for a lot of natural resources that we import (like oil, for starters) just dried up, China really doesn't have any motivation to go anywhere near America (or any other natural resource importing large economy). Not when the Middle East, Australia, Russia and Africa just lost a huge part of their customer base.

The only problem would be importing food, maybe.

[edaw1982]

I wonder how long it'll take for someone to start slipping AK-47s to the Indians so they can cause a ruckus. And who would get the most 'lol' out of Indians going slap-happy with Kalashnikovs (and having them by the short-n-curlies in regards to munitions resupplying for the 'Magic dakka guns').

I only say AK-47s as they seem to be the most prevalent 'not-massivly-expensive-and-pretty-reliable' firearm, as it seems every boy and his goat seems to have one.
That's not implying Russia would start rubbing it's hands and chortling, Jabba the Hutt style and start screwing over 'VirginTerritoryAmerica' (although....that's not to say they wouldn't either; just because the Cold War is over doesn't mean the old hands wouldn't take a prime opportunity).

[Ryan Thunder]

So, to make sure I understand, 1776!USA comes into 2012 with plenty of oil; 2012!USA comes into 1776 with very little oil, right?

Yes. The entire 1776! section, and everything attached to it (including buildings, docks, people etc.) is teleported into 2012, replacing the 2012! version and everything attached to it, including buildings docks, sewer systems, people etc)..

I was thinking about something else when I wrote the above post. I'm sorry for causing confusion.

Wouldn't this cause a massive earthquake?

[CaptainChewbacca]

Its a RAR, it doesn't have to fit with geology. There's a flicker, and everything inside the borders of the US is switch with 1776.

[Simon_Jester]

I wonder if the 1776!America will have the New Madrid quakes occur 'on schedule' thirty-five years later?

[LaCroix]

I wonder how long it'll take for someone to start slipping AK-47s to the Indians so they can cause a ruckus. And who would get the most 'lol' out of Indians going slap-happy with Kalashnikovs (and having them by the short-n-curlies in regards to munitions resupplying for the 'Magic dakka guns').

I only say AK-47s as they seem to be the most prevalent 'not-massivly-expensive-and-pretty-reliable' firearm, as it seems every boy and his goat seems to have one.
That's not implying Russia would start rubbing it's hands and chortling, Jabba the Hutt style and start screwing over 'VirginTerritoryAmerica' (although....that's not to say they wouldn't either; just because the Cold War is over doesn't mean the old hands wouldn't take a prime opportunity).

Probably take longer than the first attempts to carve their own territory out of the continent. Arms dealers would need to cross a wilderness mostly just traversable by foot or mule, which bears dangerous wildlife and usually hostile natives, whose language you don't speak, and who can't give you anything better than furs as payment to sell them something they can't comprehend.

Also, you'd be better off selling them normal weapons, as automatic weapons will quickly turn out useless to them for the high ammo demand, which is extremely expensive to them.

In fact, guns would only be good as 'payment' if you want to buy land from them, but then you suddenly have well-armed natives as your neighbours.

[LaCroix]

I wonder if the 1776!America will have the New Madrid quakes occur 'on schedule' thirty-five years later?

Oh yes, they will. Basically, you had a "find differences (attributed to humans) between two snapshots - switch them" procedure made (we IT folk call it a "Merge"), which caused the blink-type exchange without setting the plate tectonics off big time by suddenly having different size, position and edge structure.

So the US sent back in time is sitting on a spring-loaded quake waiting for the go signal, while the 1776-ers suddenly have to deal with the modern air quality, global warming, polluted shore waters and all the stuff. (which doesn't bother them much as the first will very quickly get better, and the second has just pretty much ground to a halt...)

[edaw1982]

Also, you'd be better off selling them normal weapons, as automatic weapons will quickly turn out useless to them for the high ammo demand, which is extremely expensive to them.

Good point, but I was thinking the whole 'Oh-dear-you-need-more-ammo-from-me-well-that's-double-the-price-this-time' $__$

Then again, economically it would make more sense to sell them bolt-action rifles. Still faster than muskets.

[PeZook]

Also way more accurate. However, the problem of payment remains: in 1776, animal skins of various kinds were pretty pricey.

Not so much nowadays.

[LaCroix]

This.

If they have to give you a tipi's volume of fur to purchase one, and a full arm load for a box of ammo that would be gone in a couple of seconds during combat (and training!), they probably would say 'fuck that shit' (in their native tongue) pretty soon. Also, in their environment, caring for such a gun would be hard, and any failure would result in the forceful uttering of the above quote, as well.

With a normal, cheaper rifle, where they can better equate a bullet to a shot, maintenance is easier, and the use is more akin to their known weapon use, this risk is much lower.

[PeZook]

A bolt-action Mauser knockoff should be rugged enough to withstand plenty of abuse, and american natives could become amazingly good shots with their muskets. Think what they could do with precisely machined rifles

[LaCroix]

A bolt-action Mauser knockoff should be rugged enough to withstand plenty of abuse, and american natives could become amazingly good shots with their muskets. Think what they could do with precisely machined rifles

That's probably because muskets are rather similar to bow and arrow. While lacking the range of a bow, they do have the same 'instinctive aiming' thing in which you must subconsciously correct aiming. Also, if you can release an arrow without throwing it off aim, stabilizing a musket while pulling a trigger is no problem. The mechanics of triggering are slightly different, but the stabilizing part is basically the same. With both, you have to keep a bucking, heavy part in position until the projectile has left it fully.

Which means their practise with bows from early childhood on made them pretty accurate shots once they got their hands on it. Just like if the colonist's children were to begin shooting practice with mini-muskets as soon as they'd able to talk&walk.

Indians with modern guns, and their knowledge of the terrain and survival skills? That's bad. When they also get their hands on grenades, or other stuff? That's basically Vietnam, V 2.0.
Call the UN, list them as recognized Nations, I'm not going to bother with them.

Maybe send some envoys with gifts and offers to teach them how the modern world works and make economic treaties with them.
If we don't disturb their way of life too much, and keep our mining enclaves orderly and not be general assholes towards them, and they'll happily cooperate.

[Rabid]

Uh... I was thinking... By 1776, was their still a problem with germs coming from Europe that were unknown to the Natives immune system ? That's something you'd want to be aware of if it's the case, you know, if you don't want inadvertently committing the Native Genocide v2.0.

Maybe a mass immunization campaign and/or a continent-scale quarantine would be in order ? Because the Colonists themselves would have "outdated" immune systems by modern standards.

[KhorneFlakes]

That's one thing I realized too. If the Natives are ripped along with 1776 MURCA, then the both the Colonists and Natives will be having problems with diseases. The first negations with the natives will likely be conducted by diplomats in hazmat suits if the nations of the world are smart.

[DarkArk]

Not just the natives, but the colonists as well. They've still got smallpox for example, which has the possibility of killing off a large portion of a modern world that is no longer immunized. That has the potential of really screwing over the modern world. First there would be the loss of 20-25% of the world's GDP, and then a third of the population would die within a year or two. I don't think vaccine can be produced fast enough to have any meaningful effect.

The same thing would happen with 2012!America back in 1776, but they have the advantage of being somewhat more isolated and there will be less travel. They're still going to suffer, but they also have the advantage of having an absolutely enormous population for the time period.

One thing that people seemed to have missed was that in 1776 there was a war going on. There are going to be British armies and ships that will be transported back. How long would the war continue before they realized that Britain isn't really there anymore? How would loyalists react? They'll want to be part of an empire that no longer exists, would they try and be loyal to 2012 Britain? That could be interesting if they do. The fact that it's nominally the same government in both eras just makes this more interesting. How would the British troops react to being exposed to the modern UK, and furthermore how would the UK react to having people who still believe in Empire? I'm not sure just how much that would change, but I can't imagine that they're going to like the numbers of non-Christian non-Whites living there today.