What If: United States Is Transported Back in Time to 1776?

[Chirios]

What if the United States and all of its unincorporated territories were suddenly transported back in time through to 1776? The US's satellite communications systems will not be transported, nor will its overseas bases and military personnel.

What would happen in "our" reality, and what would happen in the new reality that split off at the moment of 1776?

[Ahriman238]

What almost the entire contient and several islands? I don't think there's room in the world for two North Americas.

Well, there's really no amount of military force available to the 18th century that could be more than a serious inconvenience. I think the British occupation has officially ended.

If not, a carrier spends a few weeks at sea and a squadron of F-15s buzzes London.

There will be some serious debate about us having a duty to conquer the world for it's own good, and bring the light of industrialization to the poor benighinted, semi-industrial savages, but I predict nothing will come of it. The US becomes more isolationist than ever before, convinced that the world outside our shores is full of heathens.

The locals of the time period are going to have serious culture shock, particularly with our attitudes regarding slavery.

Bill O'Reilly and Glenn Beck both invite the Framers of the Constitution to appear on their shows and explain their intentions and desires in writing the thing a decade from now.

[Chirios]

What almost the entire contient and several islands? I don't think there's room in the world for two North Americas.

lol, the USA of our time would "replace" the USA of 1776 and the USA of 1776 (the entire area) would "replace" the USA of our time.

[Mr Bean]

Bill O'Reilly and Glenn Beck both invite the Framers of the Constitution to appear on their shows and explain their intentions and desires in writing the thing a decade from now.

That's the last thing those two will do considering dueling is still legal in this time period.

Also clarification by the OP. We the United States and all it's people and military are transported back to 1776 correct? The residents of 1776 America go where?

I'm predicting America turns instantly expansition considering how empty Canada is and the islands of our coast are. Also we are so bringing Democracy to the middle east (again)

[CaptainChewbacca]

Then America wins, plain and simple. We annex/purchase all of Canada from England and immediately move into Mexico to secure all the oilfields. There will be severe rationing for a while, maybe even an oil crash, but America's industrial and technological base will remain intact. And, since we've got all of our territories that means that places like Midway and Diego Garcia have positioned us to have total hegemony over other parts of the world, we'll probably be occupying the middle east in short order. It gives us a chance to have a kinder, gentler relationship with Islam.

I have to wonder, though, if you'd have a Nantuckett-writ-large where American immigrants will go back home. I could imagine a few hundred thousand Indian-Americans going back to India and teaching what they've learned, same for the Japanese-Americans and many african-americans.

Meanwhile Europe is in a tailspin. Its main source of cotton and tobacco just disappeared, and the 2nd largest slave purchaser in the world is gone. England's navy is now worth nothing, and I'm pretty sure sometime in the next 30 years Napoleon will buy a machine gun.

[evilsoup]

Does our USA get replaced with 1776-USA? Or does it just become empty land? Either way, we have a massive economic crash. In the latter case followed by a land grab on the parts of Canada and Mexico (and possibly Russia, and hilariously Cuba might end up with a chunk of Florida); in the former case... I honestly have no idea.

Meanwhile, in 1776, the USA will have serious problems with the supply chains for all of it's industries breaking down. I would expect general chaos and starvation (no oil or petrol imports..). The USA might fall apart. If it doesn't, and then reindustrialises (are the mineral/oil deposits replenished to 1776 levels? That would make things easier), it would become the world's lone hyperpower. The various European empires might survive, so long as they ally themselves with the new power.

If the USA fractures under the pressure, then there would be several superpowers, focussed in north america. These would be much easier for the powers of the time to handle (though still very very dangerous) because they would have to tie up significant resources to defend themselves against each other.

How much of the US navy is in port at any one time?

[spaceviking]

Well in terms of crucial supplies for industries I assume the united states is not living day to day, though consumer goods will take a hit. The U.S will likely secure important resources around the world. This should not be hard.They know where they are, and have the military tech to appear near god like.

[Eternal_Freedom]

One thing I think is being overlooked in the "US easily conquers everything" scenario is the fact that no satellites are transported as well. So the US no longer has satellite communications or GPS systems. That is going to severely limit their military abilities, especially as 1776 hasn't even heard of the telegraph so there is precisely no global communications infrastructure outside of the US.

[atg]

Well in terms of crucial supplies for industries I assume the united states is not living day to day, though consumer goods will take a hit. The U.S will likely secure important resources around the world. This should not be hard.They know where they are, and have the military tech to appear near god like.

Its one thing to know where the resources are, its another to have the infrastructure to exploit them. An example would be the USA sent into the past would know there is a piss ton of oil in the mid east... but they'd have to spend years if not decades setting up the infrastructure (extractors, refineries, ships to move the product home, etc) to make it worth a damm.

[Rabid]

One thing I think is being overlooked in the "US easily conquers everything" scenario is the fact that no satellites are transported as well. So the US no longer has satellite communications or GPS systems. That is going to severely limit their military abilities, especially as 1776 hasn't even heard of the telegraph so there is precisely no global communications infrastructure outside of the US.

Well, if it's so critical, they still have the resources and infrastructures to send a few communication satellites to GEO, or to LEO at least, so I don't think it's that much of a problem. At worst, it will just delay things by a few years.

[Ahriman238]

Does our USA get replaced with 1776-USA? Or does it just become empty land? Either way, we have a massive economic crash. In the latter case followed by a land grab on the parts of Canada and Mexico (and possibly Russia, and hilariously Cuba might end up with a chunk of Florida); in the former case... I honestly have no idea.

Meanwhile, in 1776, the USA will have serious problems with the supply chains for all of it's industries breaking down. I would expect general chaos and starvation (no oil or petrol imports..). The USA might fall apart. If it doesn't, and then reindustrialises (are the mineral/oil deposits replenished to 1776 levels? That would make things easier), it would become the world's lone hyperpower. The various European empires might survive, so long as they ally themselves with the new power.

If the USA fractures under the pressure, then there would be several superpowers, focussed in north america. These would be much easier for the powers of the time to handle (though still very very dangerous) because they would have to tie up significant resources to defend themselves against each other.

How much of the US navy is in port at any one time?

My understanding from the OP's later correction is that we switch. The modern US and territories appear in 1776, while in the modern world the US as we know it vanishes to be replaced with 13 English colonies and a whole lotta Indian lands. Poor Indians, they're probably going to be massively screwed over, again.

There are strategic reserves of most crucial supplies. Rationing will happen, total collapse probably won't.

[spaceviking]

I guess an important question is what percentage of the total U.S navy/ private ships are docked at any given time.

[Ahriman238]

I believe about 1/3 of the Navy. Not quite sure about the Merchant Marine and private ships.

[Simon_Jester]

Not that many... do ships at sea come over? Even if they do, I assume airbases and port facilities don't; this could become a serious problem since we don't have refueling bases for a lot of our warships.

One thing I think is being overlooked in the "US easily conquers everything" scenario is the fact that no satellites are transported as well. So the US no longer has satellite communications or GPS systems. That is going to severely limit their military abilities, especially as 1776 hasn't even heard of the telegraph so there is precisely no global communications infrastructure outside of the US.

Yes, but on the other hand, sending a few thousand riflemen plus animal-transportable heavy weapons to carve out an enclave on foreign shores is totally accepted international practice, and the Portuguese, Spanish, English, French, Dutch, Germans, Italians, Japanese, and probably a couple others I forget all have done or will soon do exactly that with inferior rifles and not so much as a damn walkie-talkie.

The US (or any nation with its own machine tools) doesn't really need radios or the Internet to conquer vast tracts of foreign land. Just being able to turn out copious 5.56mm NATO ammunition will be good enough.

And it's not like the US is the only country that would be able to do this- the same thing is true if 1700s Spain is replaced by modern Spain, because I'm pretty sure there are some respectable ammunition factories somewhere in Spain.

Its one thing to know where the resources are, its another to have the infrastructure to exploit them. An example would be the USA sent into the past would know there is a piss ton of oil in the mid east... but they'd have to spend years if not decades setting up the infrastructure (extractors, refineries, ships to move the product home, etc) to make it worth a damm.

A few years, only- we have the capacity to lay railroad track quickly if we need to, and all the best, most easily accessible, desirable oil fields are still there to be tapped into. Remember that the first oil well was dug in Pennsylvania to a depth of sixty feet before striking black gold- there are similarly accessible deposits in Arabia, Iraq, and Iran.

It might actually be easiest to deal with the Safavid Persians for oil; they're already starting to get into the habit of rolling over and playing dead with foreign business concessions. And they're quite civilized, so no need to worry about random bedouin attacks on the oil fields.

[Chirios]

To reiterate: "modern" day USA swaps places with 1776 USA.

To explain: any ships docked in the USA will be transported. No satellites, no foreign bases, no ships elsewhere on the planet.

And, since we've got all of our territories that means that places like Midway and Diego Garcia have positioned us to have total hegemony over other parts of the world, we'll probably be occupying the middle east in short order. It gives us a chance to have a kinder, gentler relationship with Islam.

Why occupy the Middle East? The Ottoman Empire is still around, just negotiate with it to build oil fields, simple.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Exactly, thats what I meant by kinder/gentler. Instead of lots of mideast despots we just deal with the one.

[Lonestar]

One thing I think is being overlooked in the "US easily conquers everything" scenario is the fact that no satellites are transported as well. So the US no longer has satellite communications or GPS systems. That is going to severely limit their military abilities, especially as 1776 hasn't even heard of the telegraph so there is precisely no global communications infrastructure outside of the US.

Yeah it's going to be so hard to just fly a C-130 over the target and kick bombs out.

Dead Reckoning man, fuck, how does it work?

[Darth Wong]

After an initial period of economic chaos and social unrest, America settles into a new and far more austere existence, bereft of the foreign sources of raw materials and manufactured goods it has come to rely on. While some dismiss the possibility of America becoming imperialist, I would consider it almost a certainty: a population which has just suffered a devastating economic shock will throw principles aside and sign up for any agenda which promises to restore their former standard of living. And the most expeditious way to do that is exploitation of other nations for their resources: a procedure which is most rapidly and easily accomplished through the cultivation of vassal-state relationships with corrupt dictators, backed up with the threat of violence.

US political commentators on both sides would create a cottage industry out of pseudo-moral justifications for this behaviour, just as they have always done. Instead of "White Man's Burden", they would just rename it something else.

Meanwhile, the primitive and socially backward nations of the world would probably be almost unanimous in condemning America for its sexually depraved and materialistic ways, even as their various dictators and monarchs sign various agreements with America for generous personal gain. The gains resulting from these agreements would probably accrue exclusively to the elites rather than the people, thus stirring even more popular resentment toward America. In effect, America would inadvertently turn the rest of the world into a collection of Saudi Arabias.

I suppose the real question is what would happen once these policies really begin to work, and America becomes fat and rich and happy. Would they attempt to raise the living standard of the rest of the world in earnest, or just maintain the status quo because it's working so well for them, despite any moral qualms to the contrary? Would they react to the 18th century world's ignorance and religious superstition by finally remembering just how bad theocracy is and becoming more secular, or would the Christian dominionists take even more control? And after two or three generations, which countries would have been able to take advantage of their exposure to America by modernizing themselves?

[Todeswind]

Its one thing to know where the resources are, its another to have the infrastructure to exploit them. An example would be the USA sent into the past would know there is a piss ton of oil in the mid east... but they'd have to spend years if not decades setting up the infrastructure (extractors, refineries, ships to move the product home, etc) to make it worth a damm.

A few years, only- we have the capacity to lay railroad track quickly if we need to, and all the best, most easily accessible, desirable oil fields are still there to be tapped into. Remember that the first oil well was dug in Pennsylvania to a depth of sixty feet before striking black gold- there are similarly accessible deposits in Arabia, Iraq, and Iran.

It might actually be easiest to deal with the Safavid Persians for oil; they're already starting to get into the habit of rolling over and playing dead with foreign business concessions. And they're quite civilized, so no need to worry about random bedouin attacks on the oil fields.

Or we could just go to Canada and Mexico where we get most of our foreign oil at the moment.Most of Mexico and Canada at that time was effectively up for grabs at that time anyway. It isn't as though the USA lacks the infrastructure to build oil wells and oil rigs in Alaska and Texas. Hell, if you're not too picky about the safety regulations you can get it out of the ground with technology from the late 1800's, well within even the currently scaled back US infrastructure.

[Darth Wong]

Its one thing to know where the resources are, its another to have the infrastructure to exploit them. An example would be the USA sent into the past would know there is a piss ton of oil in the mid east... but they'd have to spend years if not decades setting up the infrastructure (extractors, refineries, ships to move the product home, etc) to make it worth a damm.

A few years, only- we have the capacity to lay railroad track quickly if we need to, and all the best, most easily accessible, desirable oil fields are still there to be tapped into. Remember that the first oil well was dug in Pennsylvania to a depth of sixty feet before striking black gold- there are similarly accessible deposits in Arabia, Iraq, and Iran.

It might actually be easiest to deal with the Safavid Persians for oil; they're already starting to get into the habit of rolling over and playing dead with foreign business concessions. And they're quite civilized, so no need to worry about random bedouin attacks on the oil fields.

Or we could just go to Canada and Mexico where we get most of our foreign oil at the moment.Most of Mexico and Canada at that time was effectively up for grabs at that time anyway. It isn't as though the USA lacks the infrastructure to build oil wells and oil rigs in Alaska and Texas. Hell, if you're not too picky about the safety regulations you can get it out of the ground with technology from the late 1800's, well within even the currently scaled back US infrastructure.

In the very short term, the economic chaos would be so great that I would expect martial law and some kind of temporary dictatorship. You need oil in order to build the infrastructure to get more oil; it's a Catch-22, which would only be solved through severe rationing. And it's not cheap or easy to build roads and rail lines into untamed wilderness, even without massive shortages. You have to bring everything along with you, because there is no infrastructure whatsoever where you're going. There's a reason Stalin used "scorched Earth" tactics against the Nazis; you can seriously slow down even a fully militarized and mechanized force by simply denying it some of the infrastructure that civilized people are dependent on. Deny it all of the infrastructure it depends on, and even much of the normal human amenities such as towns and farms, and you create serious headaches.

On the bright side, Mexico would be a lot more heavily populated and built up than Canada, so it would be easier to exploit.

[Simon_Jester]

...And it's not cheap or easy to build roads and rail lines into untamed wilderness, even without massive shortages. You have to bring everything along with you, because there is no infrastructure whatsoever where you're going. There's a reason Stalin used "scorched Earth" tactics against the Nazis; you can seriously slow down even a fully militarized and mechanized force by simply denying it some of the infrastructure that civilized people are dependent on. Deny it all of the infrastructure it depends on, and even much of the normal human amenities such as towns and farms, and you create serious headaches.

Yes, although this is actually less of a problem if you aren't worried about industrialized resistance (or, really, effective resistance of any kind- guys with flintlocks, swords, and spears don't count for much against automatic rifles). Against Napoleon and Hitler, the Russians could back their scorched earth policy with organized armed forces. If Napoleon sent cavalry patrols out to obtain goods outside the 'scorched' zone, they'd get mobbed by Cossacks. If Hitler tried to infiltrate very small mechanized forces forward that could be supplied by air, they'd get flattened by the Red Army.

Against a far more primitive enemy, this wouldn't be such a problem. Securing your supply lines is relatively easy, things like railroad track can be constructed at a reasonable pace and defended with relatively sparse outposts.

Hell, honestly, we could 'go crude' and start raising up expeditionary forces designed to rely heavily on animal transport for 'pathfinder' operations. You can put things like radios, mortars and ammunition, and plenty of machine gun ammo on a train of pack mules, which are plentiful all over the world at that time. You'd still have the firepower to break whole armies (whose logistics and communications are at best no better than yours), while being far less reliant on vulnerable convoys of fuel.

Except for unusual conditions like special forces fighting in Afghanistan, it doesn't pay to do this in real life, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't pay here. The whole world of the late 18th century was soon to be put under colonialism by imperialists with single-shot rifles and no transportation more advanced than a horse; adding automatic rifles and radios to the equation won't make it any harder.

[PeZook]

Fuel rationing will be inevitable just so that the US can feed three hundred million people without any oil imports whatsoever. I'd even go as far as to say that failing to impose rationing quickly might lead to the rest of the thread becoming moot due to a massive social and economic collapse of the US, followed by famine, followed by civil war and then some more famine.

[Broomstick]

One thing I think is being overlooked in the "US easily conquers everything" scenario is the fact that no satellites are transported as well. So the US no longer has satellite communications or GPS systems. That is going to severely limit their military abilities, especially as 1776 hasn't even heard of the telegraph so there is precisely no global communications infrastructure outside of the US.

This may shock you, but quite a few of us still remember how to use a map and compass. If nothing else, we'll have the most accurate maps and navigation charts in the world. While that will diminish some capabilities by 21st Century standards, by 1776 standards we'll blow everything else out of the water.

Presumably, we'll still have our radios and radar as well. Again, communications will be impacted, but they won't be gone.

[PeZook]

You will also have rifles accurate beyond three hundred metres, which is all you really need to decapitate any contemporary army

[Eternal_Freedom]

I know it's still possible t navigate without satellites and so on, but it is still going to be a shock, an oh shit moment I think. At the very least it is going to take a little time to figure out what is going on. Of course, that time wil probably be the same as the national "what the fuck" period.

How quickly coudl the US replace their navigation and communications satellite systems?