What If: United States Is Transported Back in Time to 1776?

[TimothyC]

Cesario, why don't you read up on nuclear strategy before you shoot off your mouth again. I'd recommended Herman Khan's On Thermonuclear War as a good primer.

[Simon_Jester]

On the "1776 in the modern world" side of things, I wonder if the founding fathers would still hold their grievance with the British. After all, a lot has changed since 1776 for Britain, and 1776 America certainly isn't in a position to go making enemies. Might they either not issue or revoke the Declaration of Independence (depending on when in 1776 the swap occirs) if Britain can offer them reassurnaces that their problems are long gone?

Very possibly. The Declaration was largely motivated by the behavior of the king's troops on what was then British soil (there are now laws against some of what they did), and by Parliament's refusal to respect or take seriously the claims, complaints, and interests of the colonials.

When you're desperately begging for food, water, and supplies, you are in no position to declare yourself an unelected government-in-exile of an 18th century nation, nor are you in any position to start arguments with anyone, even if you do have weapons. Unless these scattered forces decide to launch a war (which, by the way, they are not legally permitted to do on their own), the fact that they have extensive military supplies means almost nothing. What are they going to do, unilaterally attack the host nations upon which they now depend for their own survival? What the hell is that going to accomplish?

What you'd mostly see is an attempt by the US armed forces to stay together, stay under arms, and try to figure out some kind of civilian administration.

That's not so much to make big belligerent threats and wave their nukes at people, it's just practical. You need someone to negotiate with foreign governments, and someone to take responsibility for the millions of American citizens in other countries who would otherwise just be stateless persons.

Whatever came out of that would probably be some utterly ridiculous kludge of a 'government,' one which any American of the real world would view with deep suspicion. But it's not realistic to expect six million people, many of them armed, to sit on their asses and watch the world divide up the continent they used to own without some attempt to organize a quasi-legitimate body to speak on their behalf.

So that's your "government in exile," even assuming the president isn't overseas or something.

Most of it is rather useless without a lot of fuel, except for atomics. Fuel the Us suddenly can't buy, anymore. No one would give you a lot of refined jet fuel on credit when your whole country is suddenly gone, and satellite surveillance of other countries only shows some hovel townlets left.

Americans own a lot of assets overseas- the question of what happens to those assets is going to be one of the big issues tackled in the formation of the government(s) in exile. Depending on how it's settled, there may well be money to at least buy jet fuel for a while.

Wouldn't the old Spanish, Mexican, and French land claims come back into force? In 1776, Texas is property of Mexico IIRC. The Midwest is property of Spain and/or France.

Nope. Texas was property of Spain in 1776, as was Mexico itself. Mexico's claim is stronger only insofar as back in the 1820s, Spain recognized that Texas was part of Mexico... but that was when Mexico was in undisputed control of the land. Now, all bets are off, I suspect. Also, nations which never owned any part of US territory (like the bigger countries of South America, or China, or Japan) will want to stick an oar in, at least to the extent of buying up lots of mineral rights and stuff.

[Zinegata]

Isn't there a series (Without Warning) by John Birmingham based on the premise wherein the population of the continental United States essentially disappears?

That may provide some additional ideas on what could happen to the various US forces (and their host countries) scattered around the world.

[Eternal_Freedom]

On the matter of a US cabinet secreatary (or whatever) being overseas, even if there is such a person who could ascend to the Presidency, don't you need a judge appointed by the supreme courts or the senate or something to actually swear them in?

[LaCroix]

Non-natives didn't reach Chicago until the 1880's, and I'm not sure how many natives called a wild onion swamp "home".

I know from a NAI that Chicag-o means "Land of the skunks", it was a cursed territory, where according to a legend some greedy woman was turned into a skunk for her greed. They basically sent the white man into a swamp where they hoped everybody would turn into skunks. (To a degree, it worked.)

[LaCroix]

In a certain sense, that sort of mindless stupidity is necessary for MAD. MAD relies on the idea that after your entire country is gone, and you've already lost, you're still going to wipe out the other guy and possibly end the human race out of spite and vengence.

You know,it's called MUTUAL - in the sense of "You shoot at us, we will shoot back before you have hit us, and take you out as well." There is no protocol like "we lost, let's kill the planet." Read some books.

edit: I see someone already covered that.

[LaCroix]

Something just occurred to me.

There would be a couple of thousand people dead, immediately, when airports (and harbours, to a small degree) in the US suddenly vanish. Planes at terminal approach would crash in some wilderness, and people on boat trips might starve/get killed before any help arrives.

Also, as the swap occurs, there would be news about the character of the arrivals within a couple of hours. Maritime trade is so prevalent that there probably would be some kind of ship arriving at one of the new(old) harbours within hours, and that would be the primary source of info until some warship of any nation can be dispatched there.

To whether the colonials would try to shoot at the approaching strange ship, I don't know. If it flies British colours, definitely.

[edaw1982]

The big problem of course, is that there'd be a bit of time dialation with 1700s America being able to respond. And it'd probably be a few months before anyone thinks to check in.
Likely things will vanish, the 'nauts up in the ISS will look down, see the US is dark..run some tests, talk back to Russia, and eventually after some thumb-up-arse moments from politicians, eventually NATO (probably) will be sent in to investigate.

After some terse moments from the 'Most queely garbed soldiers of Foreign landes meeting the goode Christian men of Virginia' they will probably bitch and moan about being dragged kicking and screaming into the modern age...but hey what's good for the goose is good for the gander; as they say.
If you can civilize people with your cravats and muskets, then NATO can civilize you with automatic rifles and kevlar.

As to Modern US in 1700s, it will be a clusterfrak. People will panic, there will be riots, and possibly the militamen will try to play warlord to 'keep the peace'.
Hell, they might even insist on 'The old way of doing things, as our Founding Fathers intended'.

Would be interesting if France shows up to either dick with the Colonials...but probably will ally with them, which should lead to many faux pas as by now, the French are seen not as fierce warriors but as 'Lolcats' of the cowardly manner.

Against modern weapons and camouflage, they'll do rather well I expect. Horse-charge, meet SAW.

So it'd be armies of skirmishers versus vast lines and columns.

[KhorneFlakes]

France is terrifying. Why they aren't more terrifying is because they don't have more than one aircraft carrier. Yet.

[LaCroix]

France is terrifying. Why they aren't more terrifying is because they don't have more than one aircraft carrier. Yet.

Could you elaborate? Or is this too much off-topic? (We could make it on-topic by making France buy a carrier from the Americans to fund them. )

[Rabid]

France is terrifying. Why they aren't more terrifying is because they don't have more than one aircraft carrier. Yet.

Could you elaborate? Or is this too much off-topic? (We could make it on-topic by making France buy a carrier from the Americans to fund them. )

I would also be interested to hear that. If only by curiosity.

[Broomstick]

Non-natives didn't reach Chicago until the 1880's, and I'm not sure how many natives called a wild onion swamp "home".

I know from a NAI that Chicag-o means "Land of the skunks", it was a cursed territory, where according to a legend some greedy woman was turned into a skunk for her greed. They basically sent the white man into a swamp where they hoped everybody would turn into skunks. (To a degree, it worked.)

Just to make a quick correction in the quote of mine you quoted - I meant 1780's, of course, not 1880's. My pardon for the typo and any confusion it might have caused.

And, just to be picky, it wasn't a "white man" who initially set up a permanent resident at what is now Chicago, it was actually a a black man, Jean Baptiste Point du Sable. Of course, by that time the Natives had figured out that it wasn't just the pale face types who heralded the coming invasion.

Currently, the theory in favor seems to be that "Chicago" is the French corruption of the Miami word shikaakwa, meaning "wild onion". They had, by the mid-1770's, already been displaced by the Potowatomis moving westward when displaced by the encroaching Europeans (and some Africans/African descent folks). I don't doubt the Miami, Sauk, Fox, and Potowatomi tribes had various legends about the area.

[Broomstick]

Something just occurred to me.

There would be a couple of thousand people dead, immediately, when airports (and harbours, to a small degree) in the US suddenly vanish. Planes at terminal approach would crash in some wilderness, and people on boat trips might starve/get killed before any help arrives.

Actually, it might not be that bad - approaches can be aborted remarkably late in descent, and a significant number would have enough fuel remaining to make Canadian, Mexican, or Caribbean alternate airports. As from that, at least an attempt would be made to land off-airport. Salt flats out west could accommodate very large airplanes as is (which has something to do with where Edwards Air Force base is located and why the US does so much flight testing out there). Less ideal surfaces would be tricky, but it's possible (though far from practical) to land even a large airplane off-field at least once if you don't care about needing to re-use it afterward. Taking time to choose a spot and prepare for the landing will definitely improve the chances of survival over simply stabbing into the ground.

There would still be the problem of starving to death afterwards, but the Natives might help the stranded. They also might enslave them, as some tribes had that practice. The CONUS wasn't empty after all, just sparsely populated.

[KhorneFlakes]

France is terrifying. Why they aren't more terrifying is because they don't have more than one aircraft carrier. Yet.

Could you elaborate? Or is this too much off-topic? (We could make it on-topic by making France buy a carrier from the Americans to fund them. )

I would also be interested to hear that. If only by curiosity.

Well, I'll send ya both a PM elaborating on that. When I have time.

[Chirios]

Just wanted to clarify something:

The transportation would occur on the date of the first post. Obama would be transported backwards in time, as would any other members of the US government not abroad for various reasons.

I think you guys are drastically overstating the rapidness with which European governments might try and conquer North America. Don't forget, Canada still exists; so the Canadian Natives would exert pressure on their governments to stop what would likely be the wholesale slaughter of Native Americans, not to mention various advocacy groups within Europe would be more than displeased with the notion of their governments building empires.

In Past!America, how do you think the American government would respond to the African exploitation that was going on at the time?

[Broomstick]

I know what the reaction of the African-Americans would be... how that would affect what happens depends on how much they can influence everyone else. Wouldn't be surprised if some of them cross to past!Africa and arm the natives.

[loomer]

If nothing else, you might get a few heading to Haiti to trigger the revolution a couple of decades early.

[LaCroix]

Currently, the theory in favor seems to be that "Chicago" is the French corruption of the Miami word shikaakwa, meaning "wild onion".

There was once an Indian couple who lived in that region. The man was a trapper who trapped beaver. One day when he returned from checking his traps, laden with furs, he heard his wife calling. She had grabbed a beaver by its tail and told her husband to kill it. He told her that he would not do this as he had already trapped just so many and she should let that one go. She released the beaver but became very angry. That night after the man had gone to sleep, she ran from their hut. The next morning when the warrior awoke he noticed that she was gone but he saw her tracks in the snow and followed them. After some time, he noticed that her footprints gradually changing. At last they became the tracks of a skunk and he then noticed that there were many skunks in the area. When he returned to his people; he called this "The Place of the Skunk", and no one went there, anymore, as it was a swamp, anyway. When the settlers came and started annoying them with their demands for more and more land, they pointed them there and said they could settle there as much as they liked, hoping these greedy people would turn into skunks, as well.

He is some kind of Algonkin (that's what he said when I couldn't make anything out of his tribe name),and told us that 'cigag' (funnily I do remember that spelling) is the word for 'Animal that urinates' = Skunk, and '-o' means 'The place of', it got slightly misspelled by the ones who wrote it down. He says his tribe is still laughing about that joke their ancestors pulled off, and that the curse has partly succeeded, in a way.

[LaCroix]

Actually, it might not be that bad - approaches can be aborted remarkably late in descent, and a significant number would have enough fuel remaining to make Canadian, Mexican, or Caribbean alternate airports. As from that, at least an attempt would be made to land off-airport. Salt flats out west could accommodate very large airplanes as is (which has something to do with where Edwards Air Force base is located and why the US does so much flight testing out there). Less ideal surfaces would be tricky, but it's possible (though far from practical) to land even a large airplane off-field at least once if you don't care about needing to re-use it afterward. Taking time to choose a spot and prepare for the landing will definitely improve the chances of survival over simply stabbing into the ground.

There would still be the problem of starving to death afterwards, but the Natives might help the stranded. They also might enslave them, as some tribes had that practice. The CONUS wasn't empty after all, just sparsely populated.

My fear was also less the crash landings, but the Natives. They weren't generally friendly with the whites, and meeting injured ones that obviously were attacked (and some swallowed, obviously) by a huge, strange, bird that had fallen from the sky,screaming, and ripped the earth open and set it on fire where the whites seemingly were at the time... Well, you might get what I am referring to...


And I must state that I do support the statements of Chirios. no European country would claim possession of some old territory just by the fact that it is suddenly 'uninhabited' (which it isn't - the tribes to inhabit it) due to this changes. Especially since most of the European population is rather enamoured with Natives and there would be a huge backlash by population if some politician would try to step back into colonization age, which would mean military oppression of these people, who would by default have the older claim on these lands if we play that game.

The fact that the Spain/France could unilateral claim a land that is inhabited and controlled by a society that would fit all criteria of a state (guovernment, people, territory), and would need to conquer it from them would not fly in the modern world. Obviously, the people the land got originally stolen from are now back in possession, the claim that that you have already stolen it once and now want to steal it again is no legal base in this age.

[PeZook]

Especially since some unknown yet presumably powerful entity just vanished the US nearly in its entirety. Who can guarantee it wasn't actually punishment by some cruel god with a sense of humor?

[Chirios]

Is it likely that the Chinese might try and gain control of the Area-Formerly-Known-as-the-United-States? They might try shipping some of their poorer workers over their to gain control of key resources, Texas oil fields, rare minerals etc.

[Skywalker_T-65]

Is it likely that the Chinese might try and gain control of the Area-Formerly-Known-as-the-United-States? They might try shipping some of their poorer workers over their to gain control of key resources, Texas oil fields, rare minerals etc.

I could see the Chinese trying to take some of the territory. When you take into account how crowded their country is, that alone would be a reason. Toss in the fact that the (relatively) un-populated area has a lot of Natural resources...and you are giving them even more of a reason.

As for what the rest of the world will do...what about the odd Native American that might have been on a vacation? I realize that is a limited amount of people (probably not even hitting a thousand) but it would be interesting to see how they would react to 'their' people suddenly having all their land back. Depends on how they feel towards being 'American' as opposed to Cherokee, Creek, etc.

Back in 1776-verse, I don't see America going imperial right away, simply because it will be enough of a problem keeping the country together. But as soon as they are done, they most likely will start taking over places. Which reminds me...we have talked about China taking over Modern Day CUS, but what about the '76 America going after China (as in the America in the past)? Knowing how we have practically sold our souls to the Chinese by now, I could see them wanting to nip that problem as soon as possible. That's just what I would do anyway. They would also want to go for the overseas stuff (Hawaii, Guam, Puerto Rico, etc.), since Modern America would view that as our land.

[LaCroix]

Is it likely that the Chinese might try and gain control of the Area-Formerly-Known-as-the-United-States? They might try shipping some of their poorer workers over their to gain control of key resources, Texas oil fields, rare minerals etc.

Actually, the Chinese aren't the colonial type, and haven't been for hundreds of years. I doubt they'd suddenly do a 180 on their character.

Especially since some unknown yet presumably powerful entity just vanished the US nearly in its entirety. Who can guarantee it wasn't actually punishment by some cruel god with a sense of humor?

This. Everybody would see a pristine restored United States territory, while Canada and Mexico are completely untouched (Surgically at the exact borders!), suddenly back to natural state and re-filled with mostly Indians, and the settlements put approximately back to the time before the US was founded, but after they declared themselves independent.

To me, this looks like 'god' didn't like the simulation's result, but wants to run it again.

[Simon_Jester]

On the matter of a US cabinet secreatary (or whatever) being overseas, even if there is such a person who could ascend to the Presidency, don't you need a judge appointed by the supreme courts or the senate or something to actually swear them in?

Hell, given the sheer number of federal judges, odds are a few of them are on vacation overseas at any one time...

But seriously, this kind of question is largely irrelevant. In a situation like this, legalism takes a back seat to the need to have something in the way of a government. There may be a few idiot Constitution-humpers who refuse to acknowledge the legitimacy of an official who claims to represent the surviving United States because he didn't perform the prescribed rituals of rubbing blue mud into his belly button or whatever, but it doesn't matter at all compared to the big questions (what happens to American citizens abroad, to American financial assets, to the US military, et cetera).

The biggest issue is that because there's no single clear way to make a government-in-exile legitimate, assuming we don't have very senior people like Obama abroad, there will likely be multiple governments with no clear way to judge which is the 'real' one. If multiple governments-in-exile appear, it's possible that there will be conflict and that different countries will recognize different governments as convenient to them (i.e. whichever government offers them the best chance of grabbing as much as possible).

To whether the colonials would try to shoot at the approaching strange ship, I don't know. If it flies British colours, definitely.

Not in 1776, not if they're plainly whacked-out weird technology and not making clearly hostile actions. Remember, roughly a third of the American population remained loyalist through the Revolution, or well into it. In 1776, most Americans did not perceive the British as foreigners. Indeed, I bet one of the first things they'd try to do if 1776!America is catapulted into 2012 is try to get in touch with the British government, re-negotiate their territorial and tax disputes, and rely heavily on the British as a 'friend in their corner.'

There are good reasons for them to do that- language, obviously, but also that Britain has one of the few governments in the world that has existed in largely unchanged form since the mid-1700s. Aside from the relative decline of the monarchy and the House of Lords in favor of the House of Commons, the British system has not changed, and the American colonials will have no trouble understanding the legitimacy and organization of Her Majesty's Government.

I think you guys are drastically overstating the rapidness with which European governments might try and conquer North America. Don't forget, Canada still exists; so the Canadian Natives would exert pressure on their governments to stop what would likely be the wholesale slaughter of Native Americans, not to mention various advocacy groups within Europe would be more than displeased with the notion of their governments building empires.

What's most likely is that various countries will establish 'protectorates.' There's millions of square miles of effectively un-built, undefended, resource-rich land out there; as a purely practical matter, someone is going to have to assert authority over it, if only to make sure the Indians aren't all slaughtered by mining consortiums.

I think the most likely result is that once the UN reorganizes itself in Geneva from having its headquarters blipped out of existence, there will be a round of wrangling over the drawing-up of "protectorate" zones. The US government(s)-in-exile will be heavily involved in this process, naturally.

This is not to say that the protectorates will be governed the way Age of Imperialism colonies were- just that someone has to take responsibility for enforcing some kind of law and order and adjudicating who gets which mineral rights and so on. The native tribes aren't remotely capable of doing it alone, because of the huge disparity in organization and technology and population density.

In Past!America, how do you think the American government would respond to the African exploitation that was going on at the time?

Er, you mean modern America sent to 1776? Easy. The slave trade just lost its second-biggest market, any US military presence will translate into a huge dent in the slave trade. Once the CIA and such get their bearings again, slave uprisings will become a common tool for the US to establish hegemony over European colonies in the Caribbean and Latin America. Pressure to abolish the slave trade will become intense, and so on.

For 1776 America sent to today, the slave trade is obviously dead, and abolition will probably be a condition of any serious material aid to the colonials. Fugitive slaves and freedmen will soon figure out that they can legally apply for political asylum in other countries, too.

Of course, the entire Southern plantation class, including people like Washington and Jefferson, will really get kicked in the shorts by this as far as their personal life goes, and will probably disgrace themselves on international TV in the process...

Back in 1776-verse, I don't see America going imperial right away, simply because it will be enough of a problem keeping the country together. But as soon as they are done, they most likely will start taking over places. Which reminds me...we have talked about China taking over Modern Day CUS, but what about the '76 America going after China (as in the America in the past)? Knowing how we have practically sold our souls to the Chinese by now, I could see them wanting to nip that problem as soon as possible. That's just what I would do anyway.

What the hell are you talking about?

Do you have some notion that the Chinese race has this automatic magic 'screw over America' power that must be removed by dominating the country they occupy? And what's this about "sold our souls," do you seriously think that there's anything about the trade relationship between the US and China that isn't just a scaled-up copy of the US relationship with dozens of other countries?

For that matter, it's not like they didn't spend the 19th and early 20th centuries at the mercy of foreign conquerors anyway, and that hardly stopped them from becoming an economic powerhouse in the 21st century.

Is it likely that the Chinese might try and gain control of the Area-Formerly-Known-as-the-United-States? They might try shipping some of their poorer workers over their to gain control of key resources, Texas oil fields, rare minerals etc.

Actually, the Chinese aren't the colonial type, and haven't been for hundreds of years. I doubt they'd suddenly do a 180 on their character.

No, but they're not shy about trying to get mineral rights in Third World countries, either. The Pacific coast alone contains an incredible amount of valuable stuff, and there's basically no way to get at any of it without shipping in the people and infrastructure to exploit it. It won't look like Age of Imperialism colonization, but there will almost unavoidably be a foreign (including Chinese) tendency to push control of the territory and put people on the ground to take advantage of the resources of the land.

[LaCroix]

No, but they're not shy about trying to get mineral rights in Third World countries, either. The Pacific coast alone contains an incredible amount of valuable stuff, and there's basically no way to get at any of it without shipping in the people and infrastructure to exploit it. It won't look like Age of Imperialism colonization, but there will almost unavoidably be a foreign (including Chinese) tendency to push control of the territory and put people on the ground to take advantage of the resources of the land.

Right. But given that the Pacific Carrier Group and other assets are still around (I guess they'd find shelter in Japan or Australia), and still has some say about things going on, there will be Japanese or Australian companies doing the resource extraction, under contract with the remaining US government. In this case, might does make right.