What If: United States Is Transported Back in Time to 1776?

[Mr Bean]

Yes. The total number of Americans overseas at any one time- not just troops- comes to about... well, from a single untrustworthy source, about six million (2% of the national population, not completely unreasonable).

That's about two to 2.5 times the total population of the 1776 colonies; there will be literally no place to put and no way to feed all those people in the continental United States.

On the other hand, with so much (effectively) virgin land, there's going to be a hellacious land grab attempt- the US government-in-exile will not be in a good position to keep Mexico from reasserting its control over the territories which come over and were at the time Spanish possessions.

The US Government in exile will still have access to nukes and divisions worth of army and material in our overseas bases. Besides Mexico is not exactly in a position to simply move north and claim US land because it's totally virgin land. Mexico might plant some flags but the chances of them holding it over a NATO coalition is pretty low.

[Darth Wong]

What is this "US government in exile" everyone keeps talking about? In this scenario, the continental US disappears, which means the entire government would be gone: president, vice president, congress, senate, the whole thing. Gone. The central military leadership would be gone too, thus leaving various generals and admirals in charge of their respective scattered forces. Unless one of the top people just happens to be out of the country when it happens, the entire executive branch would disappear, as well as the entire judicial branch and probably all or almost all of the legislative branch.

Military personnel abroad do not constitute civilian government. Besides, they would all be instantly rendered economic refugees; their paycheques and ability to pay for goods and services would cease instantly, so all of these military bases and vessels would be able to function only so long as their stored consumables last. Once that ends, they will literally have to go begging to their international hosts for food (and keep in mind, these hosts will be dealing with their own economic chaos as a result of the disappearance of the US).

When you're desperately begging for food, water, and supplies, you are in no position to declare yourself an unelected government-in-exile of an 18th century nation, nor are you in any position to start arguments with anyone, even if you do have weapons. Unless these scattered forces decide to launch a war (which, by the way, they are not legally permitted to do on their own), the fact that they have extensive military supplies means almost nothing. What are they going to do, unilaterally attack the host nations upon which they now depend for their own survival? What the hell is that going to accomplish?

Let's also remember that the borders of 1776 America predate the Louisiana Purchase. At this point in history, America is limited to its eastern states. The Midwest and the West belong to other parties. What we call "America" would be a small rump of a nation compared to its present-day borders. Hawaii, Guam, etc would probably declare independence.

EDIT: Oops, I forgot that one of the conditions of the earlier post for this alternate scenario was that some of the leadership happens to be overseas at the time. Still, what are these handful of people going to do? Declare war because other countries reassert their land claims to territory that the 1776 United States doesn't even own?

[LaCroix]

Modern world (Assuming alternative timelines, or else we would all be america...):
China is instant world leader.

First, there are suddenly no more bases for US warships, no infrastructure worth mentioning, no refineries, no nuclear reactors, no nuclear fuel, no jet fuel. Refueling the fleet? With what money? How long can you support a carrier while desperately trying to reverse-engineer all needed parts (basically tearing one apart in order to take measurements). And given the sheer volume of supply you need for a carrier group, they must be called back and mothballed almost immediately. (At this point, SHROOM starts cheering for the peaceful future...

All the factories are gone. Plans and tools for any american weapon systems? Gone.(Except for license production in other countries.) How long will an F-1x fly without spare parts? Where is the supply chain to support US made jets/tanks? Basically the whole NATO is suddenly working with salvage-serviced equipment, while everyone working with Russian or indigenous produced crafts is well off. Where do you get your ammunition for these weapons? Mostly gone, except for licensed factories.

Wall street? Banks? IT tech? Most parts of the internet? A lot of rich people are suddenly very poor.

And IF the president is still there, like stated (which means that there is still a gouvernment) - the territory still exists, so there is technically no disruption of the united states, so the debt is still there. The fact that there are some parts are occupied by someone is irrelevant. At least I doubt China and Saudi Arabia would accept that reasoning. America is a third world country with some Carriers that carry expensive paperweights, and some nuclear subs with a few handful nukes.

The rest of the world will have an economic crisis. Stock exchange in Europe and the rest of the world will be mostly the same, just a lot of papers are suddenly worthless. Lot's of drastic 'corrections' will follow, but markets will even out. Most big players (Hedgefunds) are gone, so there isn't that much volume, anymore.

On the other hand, the loss of the US suddenly freed a lot of oil, lot's of business opportunities are freed. Boeing, for example is out of business, GM, too, Microsoft is history, as well as most IT companies of the valley. There will be a race to fill the empty spots.

Also, with the US gone, and lot's of untouched woodlands back in the place, mother nature will feel much better...

[Darth Wong]

Would the US still be considered a sovereign entity? Its 1776 government would refuse to recognize any debts or contracts or bonds which it had not issued or signed, and it CERTAINLY would not recognize a black man as its president. What's Obama going to do, declare that he is personally backstopping the US currency and debt now?

I would tend to think that, given the extraordinary circumstances, the US would simply cease to exist as a sovereign entity, as far as the rest of the world is concerned. It would be treated as if it had been wiped off the face of the Earth and replaced with a brand-new nation.

Consider this: sovereignty is in large part a function of recognition. Who the hell is going to recognize a transplanted 1776 colonial American government as a sovereign entity? If they're generous, they'd recognize their borders as of 1776, but all contracts and agreements and recognitions signed since then would be rendered null and void.

[Mr Bean]

What is this "US government in exile" everyone keeps talking about? In this scenario, the continental US disappears, which means the entire government would be gone: president, vice president, congress, senate, the whole thing. Gone. The central military leadership would be gone too, thus leaving various generals and admirals in charge of their respective scattered forces. Unless one of the top people just happens to be out of the country when it happens, the entire executive branch would disappear, as well as the entire judicial branch and probably all or almost all of the legislative branch.

Military personnel abroad do not constitute civilian government. Besides, they would all be instantly rendered economic refugees; their paycheques and ability to pay for goods and services would cease instantly, so all of these military bases and vessels would be able to function only so long as their stored consumables last. Once that ends, they will literally have to go begging to their international hosts for food (and keep in mind, these hosts will be dealing with their own economic chaos as a result of the disappearance of the US).

FYI DW we have everything we need in Germany to form a Government in exile, you underestimate the number of active duty American soldiers who are in Europe and deployed in Iraq and A-stan. Toss in foreign bases and your talking about a quarter million people who have a chain of command to fall back on. Further because of the size of American government there actually is a chance for if not a current but a former Government Secretary or possibly even current secretary. Hillary does a lot of traveling as does Leon Panetta as part of their jobs as Secretaries of State and Defense respectively. We also have literally hundreds of diplomats and senior state department people abroad constantly. So the possibility we might have a Laura Roslin take over the US Presidency since there are 17 other people besides the VP who are in the line of succession for US President.

Second we have enough stock on hand in most military bases to last a few weeks at the very least. We are not talking lasting until the rebirth of the Glorious American Empire Part II to the modern day area. Fact is however that a great deal of American military personnel will be left in the present with a large pile of guns, tanks and nukes. An American Goverment in Exile will form, the question is Darth Wong on how many will form and around who. If Hillary is out of country at the time there's an excellent chance the German/ME/Korean/Japanese units will affirm her control but without a powerful unify figure to rally around we might see six or seven America in exile governments.

[Cesario]

What do you think the response will be of the 2012 US military forces stationed overseas who just saw their entire country litterally blink out of existence? The complete annihalation of the United States by persons unknown. If there was ever a time to be worried about nuclear war being touched off by a misunderstanding, it will be in those first few days and weeks while information on what the fuck just happened starts pouring in. The first clue the 1776 US might have that something is amiss might well be the radioactive snow fall.

[LaCroix]

Obama or any other politician still there. Gouvernment - check.
6 million people still there and rapidly returning to their home land. People - check.
Territory still there, but some parts occupied by foreign people, who are not a recognized nation. Territory check.

Simply going by the legalese, the US still exists, it just got devastated by some kind of disaster, and somebody has occupied it. This means that the US doesn't simply cease to exist. Most countries would sit down and twiddle their thumbs while trying to solve their national economic disaster, and simply wait what happens. Of course, the US would almost immediately declare state bankrupcy.

The most probable solution is that the modern rests and the old-timers would meet, the situation would be looked at and the old-timers will be brought up to date, so to speak, of where and when they are. Then, there will be a new founding congress, elections, and the Us will start anew, with help of other nations. With only a couple of bigger cities at the east coast, lot's of towns, and only 13 states... I see three or four parties - democrats, republicans, and colonials - although I do believe they'd go for a proportional system, this time, since there'd be too much risk of the old-timers winning and being the ones in charge.

The Native Nations would probably be seen as the legal owners of the rest of the territory (Most people around the world like Indians, and the land is basically worthless, empty plains and woodland.) Also, they'd defend their land, and fighting down native tribes is a business noone likes, today.
Also, their claim is much older than anyone else could declare.

A new wave of (welcome)immigration to the US would start and fill the cities, but this time, the US would have to respect their treaties with the Natives.

Most probably, Carriers and other military equipment would have to be sold or rented out as mercenaries(Australia would surely like to have a carrier and some nuclear subs around) to get funding, as the military is the only thing the US still has to get coin. But a couple million sterling/euro/yuan/ for some bargain F16/18 alone would take the new, smaller country quite far in rebuilding and restocking in parmaceuticals, and even after deducting cost and pay for a carrier, there will still be quite a lot of money flowing back.

America would become Blackwater, a good third of their people serving as mercenaries, with another third rebuilding the country while bringing the last third up to speed on modern life.

[LaCroix]

So the possibility we might have a Laura Roslin take over the US Presidency since there are 17 other people besides the VP who are in the line of succession for US President.

I believe even some or one member of any House would suffice, as Congress/Senate also qualify as gouvernment.

[quote="Mr Bean]Second we have enough stock on hand in most military bases to last a few weeks at the very least. We are not talking lasting until the rebirth of the Glorious American Empire Part II to the modern day area. Fact is however that a great deal of American military personnel will be left in the present with a large pile of guns, tanks and nukes. [/quote]

Most of it is rather useless without a lot of fuel, except for atomics. Fuel the Us suddenly can't buy, anymore. No one would give you a lot of refined jet fuel on credit when your whole country is suddenly gone, and satellite surveillance of other countries only shows some hovel townlets left.

@Cesario - The first thing they'd do is steam home as fast as possible to get an overview and look for survivors. Nobody would start the missiles immediately, since the whole rest of the world's news ( and their own sattelite uplinks) would confirm that there was no nuclear attack. You don't toss nukes when you have no picture at all to base your decisions on.

Arriving at the coastal towns of the 13 Colonies will rather quickly give them an idea what happened, even if it seems unlikely. Then, the talks about how to arrange with the new situation would begin. The rest of the world would sit back and might offer aid, but most would be busy dealing with their own economic problems for time being and trying to find out what happend, how it happened, and how to prevent being the next.

[lance]

For the modern US in 1776- the united states has the SPR for ~60 days worth of oil.

US uses 18 million barrels per day. Domestic production is ~5 million barrels per day. So with a bit of rationing the US should be good for about 3 months.

Does anyone know how fast an oil well can be dug?

[Mr Bean]

Most of it is rather useless without a lot of fuel, except for atomics. Fuel the Us suddenly can't buy, anymore. No one would give you a lot of refined jet fuel on credit when your whole country is suddenly gone, and satellite surveillance of other countries only shows some hovel townlets left.

We have enough for operations for a week to a solid month depending on location. US Army bases are not empty of all fuel storage. My point is the bases have enough on hand to last a good month and that's all it would take for some kind of power sharing NATO backed plan to be put into effect to take control of the suddenly empty and untapped landmass that happens to have quite a bit of oil and other natural resources in it.

[Korto]

Not quite empty, however. What if certain countries (eg Mexico, etc) decided to recognise the 1776 colony claim, and promised them assistance, in return for certain considerations? And Canada decided to declare a huge chunk of land a "Native American Protectorate" (under their guidance, of course)?
I agree with Wong the 1776'ers certainly wont recognise Barack as their leader, and I don't think they'll recognise any modern Americans as their leader. They are really a completely different country, with a different culture.

On the bright side, that global warming thing has suddenly become a lot easier.

[Broomstick]

I guess I was underestimating Americans as well. I was in the Scouts so I learned map reading and navigation. I suppose I figured americans were, well, dumber. Mea culpa.

Americans also make a habit of traveling much longer distances frequently than just about anyone (Canadians and Australians can be similar, and might even have us beat), and we most often do it by car, which means even stupid Americans typically acquire some navigation skills. Different environment rewards different skills. Road trips of thousands of kilometers are routine in the US

I'll add in that even a private pilot in the US is not only required to study map-and-compass and dead reckoning navigation, but we're still required to learn to use the E6-B "flight computer" which is, essentially, a form of slide rule. My understanding is many forms of boating requiring learning basic naval signaling and navigation that has been in existence for centuries. There are other forms of recreation where old-style navigation skills are either required, or are so damn useful most involved know them.

Of course, there are plenty of idiots in the US who haven't a clue how to find their way down the block, much less across a continent, but the real point is that there are millions of people who DO still have those skills, and can transfer them to others as needed.

[Cesario]

@Cesario - The first thing they'd do is steam home as fast as possible to get an overview and look for survivors. Nobody would start the missiles immediately, since the whole rest of the world's news ( and their own sattelite uplinks) would confirm that there was no nuclear attack. You don't toss nukes when you have no picture at all to base your decisions on.

But they do have a picture. That picture involves the entire United States going dark in an instant, with not a single thing done to the rest of the world. The possibility that this was deliberately done by an enemy of the United States is certain to cross the minds of the people who have standing orders in the event of the total destruction of the military central command.

I'm not saying it's certain, but if it was ever going to happen, this would be plenty to trigger it.

[Broomstick]

I've got my money on Britain or Canada taking in our American troopers overseas in one of those great bits of irony as the US even with the Colonists and Native America's is still mostly empty. Your talking about places like Chicago that will have maybe 300 people living there or Washington DC which is now a malaria filled swamp again.

Non-natives didn't reach Chicago until the 1880's, and I'm not sure how many natives called a wild onion swamp "home". In other words, virtually no-one non-native was resident past the Appalachians, and those few might have gotten as far as Ohio. Maybe. But not to Indiana, much less Illinois or any further west. In fact, Indiana was named "Indiana" around 1800, meaning "Indian territory", which is what it was at the time (although by 1816 it was a full-fledged state - things changes very quickly).

The United States in 1776 was a strip along the east coast of North America and their (very much "their" and not "its") western border were the Appalachians. Large swaths of what are now Georgia and North Carolina were still owned by Natives. Mexico still owned what is now California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, and even as far north as Colorado. It was a very different map.

[Darth Wong]

FYI DW we have everything we need in Germany to form a Government in exile, you underestimate the number of active duty American soldiers who are in Europe and deployed in Iraq and A-stan. Toss in foreign bases and your talking about a quarter million people who have a chain of command to fall back on.

No, you do not have what you need in order to form a government. The number of military personnel is irrelevant, unless you're planning to attack and occupy something. You do not have the mandate of the people. You do not have any legal recognition by the people living in the land that was once occupied by your nation. You have no sovereign territory; the colonies are from 1776, and they do not recognize your authority in any way whatsoever.

Further because of the size of American government there actually is a chance for if not a current but a former Government Secretary or possibly even current secretary. Hillary does a lot of traveling as does Leon Panetta as part of their jobs as Secretaries of State and Defense respectively. We also have literally hundreds of diplomats and senior state department people abroad constantly. So the possibility we might have a Laura Roslin take over the US Presidency since there are 17 other people besides the VP who are in the line of succession for US President.

So? There's nobody back home to recognize the authority of any of these people. The government is gone; a government is far more than the leaders who sit atop its vast structure.

Second we have enough stock on hand in most military bases to last a few weeks at the very least. We are not talking lasting until the rebirth of the Glorious American Empire Part II to the modern day area. Fact is however that a great deal of American military personnel will be left in the present with a large pile of guns, tanks and nukes.

So? What are they going to do, attack somebody? In the near term, they need food and water. Bullets don't do you much good if you run out of water, and you seem to forget that all of them suddenly have no money. Even their chain of command suddenly has no money. The American dollar has just become worthless, remember?

An American Goverment in Exile will form, the question is Darth Wong on how many will form and around who. If Hillary is out of country at the time there's an excellent chance the German/ME/Korean/Japanese units will affirm her control but without a powerful unify figure to rally around we might see six or seven America in exile governments.

No matter how many form, none of them are legitimate governments because they are not recognized as governments by the sovereign territory they claim to represent.

[Darth Wong]

@Cesario - The first thing they'd do is steam home as fast as possible to get an overview and look for survivors. Nobody would start the missiles immediately, since the whole rest of the world's news ( and their own sattelite uplinks) would confirm that there was no nuclear attack. You don't toss nukes when you have no picture at all to base your decisions on.

But they do have a picture. That picture involves the entire United States going dark in an instant, with not a single thing done to the rest of the world. The possibility that this was deliberately done by an enemy of the United States is certain to cross the minds of the people who have standing orders in the event of the total destruction of the military central command.

I'm not saying it's certain, but if it was ever going to happen, this would be plenty to trigger it.

So what? What are they going to do, just pick someone at random, say "I bet he did it!" and nuke him? They'll try to contact NATO, and they'll get the story from them.

[Broomstick]

The Native Nations would probably be seen as the legal owners of the rest of the territory (Most people around the world like Indians, and the land is basically worthless, empty plains and woodland.)

Errr....not exactly. The Great Plains are some of the most fertile land on the planet. Wood is worth money, and what would be there is old growth forest which is highly desirable. The 21st century has maps of where LOTS of natural resources would be located, including oil fields from Pennsylvania to California, gold mines, silver mines, copper mines, a shitload of iron in the upper Midwest, there's a diamond mine in Arkansas....

Not worthless at all.

And not empty - there were plenty of people living out there in the 1770's. They just didn't happen to be citizens of the US.

[Darth Wong]

Wouldn't the old Spanish, Mexican, and French land claims come back into force? In 1776, Texas is property of Mexico IIRC. The Midwest is property of Spain and/or France.

[Cesario]

@Cesario - The first thing they'd do is steam home as fast as possible to get an overview and look for survivors. Nobody would start the missiles immediately, since the whole rest of the world's news ( and their own sattelite uplinks) would confirm that there was no nuclear attack. You don't toss nukes when you have no picture at all to base your decisions on.

But they do have a picture. That picture involves the entire United States going dark in an instant, with not a single thing done to the rest of the world. The possibility that this was deliberately done by an enemy of the United States is certain to cross the minds of the people who have standing orders in the event of the total destruction of the military central command.

I'm not saying it's certain, but if it was ever going to happen, this would be plenty to trigger it.

So what? What are they going to do, just pick someone at random, say "I bet he did it!" and nuke him?

That's actually kind of likely. If there wasn't a plan for nuking someone in the event of the instantaneous and unexplained annihalation of the entire US landmass, that sort of makes the threats of retaliation underlying MAD implausible.

They'll try to contact NATO, and they'll get the story from them.

Why does NATO know what's going on any more than they did? A completely unprecidented temporal displacement has just happened.

[RogueIce]

Wouldn't the old Spanish, Mexican, and French land claims come back into force? In 1776, Texas is property of Mexico IIRC. The Midwest is property of Spain and/or France.

Mexico wasn't independent until 1821 (or 1810, if you count when they declared independence), so technically Texas and everything else on the former US side would belong to Spain, not Mexico (as Mexico didn't exist as a country in 1776 to have claims to anything).

[Darth Wong]

That's actually kind of likely. If there wasn't a plan for nuking someone in the event of the instantaneous and unexplained annihalation of the entire US landmass, that sort of makes the threats of retaliation underlying MAD implausible.

What the fuck are you smoking? You seriously think they would just automatically nuke someone without any idea of who it was? Or that such mindless stupidity is necessary for MAD?

Why does NATO know what's going on any more than they did? A completely unprecidented temporal displacement has just happened.

They would know it was NOT nukes.

[Broomstick]

Wouldn't the old Spanish, Mexican, and French land claims come back into force? In 1776, Texas is property of Mexico IIRC. The Midwest is property of Spain and/or France.

France claimed much of the Midwest west of the Mississippi up to the Spanish claims on the west coast, but if I recall correctly, between the Mississippi and the Ohio Valley the land was still mostly in Native hands with a few exceptions up near the Canadian border in the 1770's. Again, a LOT changed by 1800 or 1815.

[Cesario]

That's actually kind of likely. If there wasn't a plan for nuking someone in the event of the instantaneous and unexplained annihalation of the entire US landmass, that sort of makes the threats of retaliation underlying MAD implausible.

What the fuck are you smoking? You seriously think they would just automatically nuke someone without any idea of who it was? Or that such mindless stupidity is necessary for MAD?

In a certain sense, that sort of mindless stupidity is necessary for MAD. MAD relies on the idea that after your entire country is gone, and you've already lost, you're still going to wipe out the other guy and possibly end the human race out of spite and vengence.

And they do have some idea who it was. The United States disapeared, and specifically everything within its legally recognised territorial borders. That suggests that whatever magic doomsday weapon was just used, it was used by one of America's enemies, and likely one of the more technologically advanced ones too. The exact sort of people who are already being targeted by nuclear weapons to try to discourage them from doing something like this.

Why does NATO know what's going on any more than they did? A completely unprecidented temporal displacement has just happened.

They would know it was NOT nukes.

It doesn't need to have been nukes. An exotic weapon developed in secret by an enemy power that wiped out the entire United States is actually more provocation than a nuclear first-strike.

Just because they don't know how it happened doesn't mean that every one of them will wait to find out after the important bit about the United States having ceased to exist having been established to the satisfaction of their standing orders.

Again, if this doesn't provoke a nuclear strike, what the hell would in your mind?

[Darth Wong]

I see that you are making a habit of manufacturing "facts" out of your own uninformed speculation. As long as you are making proclamations about how nuclear submarines should respond when they don't know what happened (ie- "if you don't know, then start nuking people randomly"), why don't you explain how you know this to be true? You obviously aren't responding to my rebuttal of "it makes no fucking sense".

[Cesario]

I see that you are making a habit of manufacturing "facts" out of your own uninformed speculation. As long as you are making proclamations about how nuclear submarines should respond when they don't know what happened (ie- "if you don't know, then start nuking people randomly"), why don't you explain how you know this to be true? You obviously aren't responding to my rebuttal of "it makes no fucking sense".

And I see you're still in the habit of quoting things I've never said. There's nothing random about targeting the people who might be able to hide a manhattin project level secret weapon who also have a grudge against the country that just ceased to exist.