A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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Junghalli
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Junghalli »

Imperial Overlord wrote:So the Evil Space Liberals perform complex, drastic, and often terminal brain surgery on the Darhel because they're too aggressive but uplift the fast breeding, aggressive Posleen while doing nothing to affect how they reproduce at all?
Funny, when I read a few of the books years back I figured the backstory that would make by far the most sense for the Darhel is they started out as janissaries.

Think about it, a race of highly aggressive, enthusiastic, and effective killers, with a built-in switch that will kill them if they actually do anything violent ... which presumably their vanished masters would have had some way of turning on and off at will, rendering them completely safe and incapable of rebellion until they are needed, at which point the safety would be removed and they would be unleashed upon the enemy. And then if they do anything funny you just turn the lintatai switch back on and they instantly become helpless again. Obviously when the Aldenata vanished they took the secret of the lintatai-deactivation switch with them, and the Darhel, unable to reverse-engineer it themselves, are now cursed to be permanently stuck in their default "safe" mode.

I figured the Posleen were another living weapon they created, that maybe got out of control and turned against them (the Posleen having memories of having rebelled against them seemed to fit with that).

I don't know, but it kind of all seemed to fit together rather better than having the Aldenata be ideological pacifists to me (as opposed to naturally incapable of violence for some reason but having no ideological objections to it, which I figured would fit - hence why they'd be into creating servant races to do their fighting for them).
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Ahriman238
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Ahriman238 »

Learned a couple more weaknesses and limitations.

Posleen:
Worse still were the tenar, the alien leaders' flying sleds. These not only mounted larger and more powerful versions of the plasma cannon and HVMs, they had more ammunition, physical or energy, and much better tracking systems. They also had enough elevation on them that, at ambush range, they could fire down, completely skipping any cover the MI troopers might have hastily thrown up. Nor did the jungle trees, however thick, so much as slow the incoming fire. Instead, they splintered or burst into flame at the passing. Sometimes they did both. In any case, the air around Connors resembled some Hollywood idea of Hell, all flame and smoke and destruction, unimaginable chaos and confusion
Tenar are fun, and apparently also have ammo bins/can connect energy weapons to their own power source for more shots. As per usual, most cover isn't when fighting Posleen.
Fuming still, he contemplated the natural obstacle to his front. Were it lower, he would simply clear away the threshkreen with concentrated fire from plasma cannon. But the angle here was all wrong for that.

"And the blasted tenar will only float so far up," he cursed. "They might make it, some of the newer ones, but alone, without ground support, they'd be abat bait. And it would take cycles and cycles to blast away all that rock. And I do not have cycles."
Newer tenar models with better performance. Would take several days to blast through a large maount of stone cover (IIRC, a small ridge) with just plasma cannon.

The Posleen ships are of Aldenata design, this apparently extends to having low ceilings, cramped corridors, and awkward furniture, at least to the Posleen. The FTL drives are of Posleen design, the only thing in the ships that are. The ships can recycle waste into edible, but flavorless mush. Just throwing this out there.
Slintogan's Artificial Sentience beeped, then announced, "Incoming fires."

"Who? Wha'?"

"Lord, I have twenty-seven . . . no, thirty-six . . . no, forty-two . . . no . . . Lord, I have a demon-shit-pot full of shells coming in at high angle. Impact in . . . five . . . four . . . three . . . two . . . one. Impact."
Artificial Sentiences (AS) haven't really appeared previously in the series. It's an AI computer aid every God-king wears about his neck. Supposedly larger and less capable than AIDs, but there are common features like adapting to their users over time, or getting prissy because their users never thought to ask for crucial information. AS devices cannot independantly access the Posleen DataNet, but can do so through a tenar's computer.
Several days before emergence from hyperspace, the God Kings and Kenstain had begun resuscitating the normals by small groups before leading them to their landers. For those, like Guanamarioch's oolt, resuscitated early and made to wait, this was pure murder, literally, as bored and sometimes hungry normals fought with each other in the cramped hold of a Lamprey
Unfreezing the normals before landing can be a messy and dangerous business.
The young God King referred back to the Scroll of Flight and Resettlement as he perused the holographic map of the new home.

"Hmmm . . . let's see. The scroll instructs the new settler to match the mass of thresh available in the area against the time available to get in crops before the available thresh runs out."
Posleen method for figuring how viable an area is for settlement.
"Remarkably little, lord. The information the Elves have put on the Net offers only the outlines. Perhaps the local thresh are not too familiar with the area, themselves."

"Imagine that," said Guanamarioch. "Imagine having so much space, so low a population, that there can be an area of one's own world that one can afford not to know and to settle."
Another major difference in how the Posleen experience and htink of the worlds they occupy. They have trouble imagining such a sparse population that every bit of world wouldn't be throughly mapped and inhabited.
"Right," Connors said, struggling to keep from sliding on a patch of ice. "Now, we know the Posleen are pretty hardy. We know they've been designed for some pretty outrageous environments. I wouldn't be surprised if they could raise their body temperature to beat off any practical cold pretty much on command. But what would they need to do that, AID?"

Damned humans. "They'd need food, wouldn't they, Captain? That, and to suck in a great deal of very cold air to get enough oxygen to burn the food with."
Limits of Posleen adaptability. They can live in very cold enviroments, but they have to eat a lot more to keep their body temperature raised.
Binastarion addressed his Artificial Sentience, "I sense a pattern. Are these thresh deliberately taking themselves out of the food chain?"

"Lord, reports are conclusive that they will often go to extraordinary lengths to avoid being consumed."

The God King almost vomited at the heresy.

"It is good we have come here then," he snarled softly, not so much to his Artificial Sentience as to his ancestors. "Beings so wastefully vile have no place in this universe. Blasphemers!" he spat out, with disgust.
Very different perspectives. Alien minds are alien. Who knew?
Take just under four hundred normals and cosslain. Put them in the charge of one Kessentai whose genetic skill set includes nothing having to do with agriculture. Place them on approximately eight hundred hectares of land. Add advice from a Kenstain who actually likes being a dirt farmer. Sprinkle liberally with rain and baste with sun . . .
Posleen agriculture, apparently the God-kings who secure little glory for themselves in the initial stages of invasion get assigned farming duties to try and meet their debts.
When the God King was standing next to the Kenstain, Ziramoth motioned for the two of them to lie down. Then he picked up a long pole, from which dangled a string and a small hook. From his saddlebags the Kenstain pulled out a small container. He drew from this a thin, claw-length writhing thing. For a moment, Guanamarioch wondered if this thing was good to eat. His surprise was total when he saw Ziramoth thread the little creature onto the hook and toss them both into the stream.
Posleen also fish.
Nineteen B- and C-Decs for each of the enemy water vessels should be more than enough, Binastarion thought as the fifty-seven low-flying craft glided soundlessly by a few hundred meters overhead. This close to the surface and this close together the spacecraft moved comparatively slowly, wary lest they make disastrous contact with the ground or with each other. In addition, each B- or C-Dec was accompanied by anywhere from seven to eighteen tenar.
I had been curious, even excited, to see how the Posleen in this book would deal with naval warships, and what new weapons and tactics might be shown. Well, turns out they have virtually no idea about watercraft (you'd think they'd be important to a race that can't swim) and no nothing of naval tactics. So they send a whole bunch of C-Decs escorted by tenar as an air attack.
Binastarion could see only a couple of hundred of his tenar-borne sons as they arose from the covering vegetation and began to converge on the threshkreen warship. In his screen, however, more than one thousand tenar appeared. Lines showing the paths of the tenar all converged in an irregular blotch above the ship. The ship itself he could not see, though bright flashes on the horizon suggested that the ship had seen the threat and was already fighting back.
Second air attack on Des Moines, this time no landers, just the charge of a thousand tenar. This is still the resources of a single, disgraced, tiny, and impecunious Posleen clan.
"Never mind, AS. Call it an old Kessentai's foolish sentimentality. Take centralized control of the plasma cannon and the HVMs. Plot a pattern to blanket anywhere in that apparition that the threshkreen demon-ship might be."
Senior God-king slaves other tenar's weapons to his own.
Indeed, there was a trap. One of the side effects of being a comparatively small clan, as Binastarion's was, was that one had to be clever to survive since one was not very strong. One had to be very clever to survive as a clan in the Po'os-eat-Po'os worlds of the People. Thus, while scream and charge was the normal tactical doctrine of powerful clans of Posleen, for the little clans the doctrine became something more like "bait and switch."
Smaller Posleen clans focus more on clever tactics than larger ones that can afford to use swarms of normals to clear minefields.
The thought was interrupted by an eruption of rifle fire from her line. The oncoming horde had reached maximum effective engagement range, about five hundred meters for targets as large as the centaurs, as closely packed together as they were. They were falling almost as fast as they were advancing. Return fire seemed to be going high, for the most part. Maybe they needed closer supervision from their God Kings to use their railguns accurately. Digna didn't know. In any case, she heard few human screams of pain or calls for "Medic!"
Noted inaccuracy in the abscence of God-kings. The normals aren't unbonded, the God-kings are just leading from behind this time. Then again, it could just be their normal inaccuracy. 500 meters considered a good range to hit Posleen with regular rifles.
Of course, as soon as the conflagration started those normals whose gift it is to build the starships began work instinctively, but it was all they could do to keep, barely, ahead of the destruction. And they never got very far ahead. Of all of our clan who had settled that island, fewer than one in twenty managed to escape. And the scars of the fissuring, brother slaying brother, were too deep to heal. The refugees stayed in the small groups into which they had split. Some were absorbed into other clans, but most went their own way, leaping into the void between the stars even without reconnaissance."
Mini-ornadar, where a single clan on an isolated island turns on itself when it gets large enough. Those with the genetic memory for shipbuilding do so instinctively just before things get really bad.
Guanamarioch stared at those stars as he whispered, "I was just thinking, Zira, what if we didn't migrate to a different spot on this world, when the time came, but reboarded our ships and set off, as fast and as far as we could go, to another world? Someplace far away from our own? Someplace we could build into a great clan again before others of the People showed up to try to wrest it from us?"

Zira thought about that for a moment, staring also at the winking stars. It was surely a tempting thought. But . . .

"We are too few to form a globe, Guano. Even if we formed something smaller—a mini-globe—our speed would be so reduced we would be in space for decades, subjective. By the time we arrived to conquer a new world the odds are good we would find the People there ahead of us, rendering blades all sharpened and waiting, when we popped out of hyperspace. That, or they would be so far ahead of us we would find nothing but wasted, radioactive worlds that had already plunged into orna'adar and been abandoned."
Possibility of mini-globes. Apparently Globes aren't just more energy effcient, but much faster. I suppose that makes a certain amount of sense.
'The Posleen are incredibly hardy. They are, so I've been told, immune to any chemical agent we might throw at them, nerve, blister, choking, blood . . . or even some of the more exotic Russian shit. But they need to breathe. They must have free oxygen. I propose that when we hit them with the artillery, mortar and rocket barrage we drench them with thermobarics and white phosphorus and burn up all the oxygen in the air. If we can hold the Nata line until nine or ten the next morning after they arrive, there will be an inversion. We'll be able to trap the hot, oxygen-depleted atmosphere under a layer of cold air. No fresh oxygen will be able to get in for a couple of hours. They'll suffocate, most of them. The mech, supported by mobile artillery, should be able to handle whatever is left. And the air with nothing but burned up oxygen will rise after the inversion layer disperses under the sun, letting fresher air in."
Another weakness of the Posleen, sure they can breathe all kinds of air through all kinds of toxins, but nature (meaning the Aldenata) has not yet equipped them to suck vacuum.
"You know how the gringos say you can't use rockets against the Posleen because they can detect them and shoot them down in flight? Well . . . I started thinking about that. The rockets, rockets like the Russian Grad, have a very short boost phase. If you fire from behind high ground, very high ground, the rockets will burn out and stop accelerating before the Posleen can track and engage very many of them.
We talked about this quite a ways upthread, it turns out you can use rockets against the Posleen, so long as they cut out before entering LOS.
Funny that they destroy everything human except the roads and bridges, Julio thought. I suppose those help them mass forces and maneuver; that, and distribute food and arms. Bastards.
Posleen keep roads and bridges, tear most other structures for raw materials.
The wire had been well strung and constructed, and competently laid out. Unfortunately, if one threw enough railgun rounds at it some of them had to connect. And even a gram's worth of metal, moving at an appreciable fraction of c, would be enough to sever the wire. Quijana wasn't even sure the Posleen were doing it deliberately, but great swaths of the wire were severed and down even so. Moreover, in places the Posleen had stacked their wounded and dead so thick and deep that the wire had become more of a frame for holding up a Posleen-paved aerial pathway.
Railgun rounds (I believe the 1mm, feel free to contradict me) weigh 1 gram, and travel at "an appreciable fraction of c." We're not starting that again. Just noting that we now have a weight, even if the speed is incredibly vague.
Yes, those were shotguns that Ruiz had seen. Unfortunately, they had a little more range than human shotguns. He had several pieces in his back, buttocks and legs to prove that. The pellets were painful, but not debilitating. They had the added advantage of leaving a light blood trail for his pursuers to follow, though it took a peculiar frame of mind to consider that an advantage.
Posleen shotguns outrange the human equivalent. On the other hand, a man is shot several times and not killed, disabled or noticeably slowed down. Evidence gathers for Raxmei's idea of "over-engineered ratshot."
Posleen were essentially immune to any form or terrestrial poison that man had yet discovered. Nerve gas had no effect. Blister agents had little (but then blister agents were among the least deadly means of human chemical warfare anyway). Blood agents? Puhleeze. Not even some of the more esoteric Russian chemicals had had any noticeable effect on the aliens. Diseases? Not a chance.

That said, their bodies were still composed of something analogous to flesh. The beings who had tinkered with Posleen genes in the dim mists of antiquity had begun with a more or less normal pre-sentient creature, then modified those early forms for reasonable threats. Some threats, though, just weren't reasonable.

The ant had neither name nor number. It never noted the lack. As much as a Posleen normal was content to be a part of its clan, the ant lived to serve its colony, though in this case the colony was a series of trees. In a real sense, even more than Posleen normals, the ant was a mere appendage to that greater organism.
Posleen also vulnerable to injections of concentrated formic acid, such as those you get from the bite of army ants.
There were limits, not so much legal as in the nature of taboos, as to what was appropriate education for a junior God King. As Guanamarioch was very junior, indeed, he kept to those materials that were traditionally within the purview of such as he. These were limited to religious scrolls, and not all of those, and tactical and operational records and manuals. Even of the latter, there were limits. It would not do for an overeducated junior Kessentai to question the rulings of his elders while citing what such and such hero did at such and such place, at such and such a time.
God-kings have taboos against younger god-kings delving too deeply into the Net. Even history and doctrine are limited to prevent the questioning of their elders. Interesting.
"Any plan which requires the direct intervention of any deity to work can be assumed to be a very poor one."- Newbiespud
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Simon_Jester »

Ahriman238 wrote:Newer tenar models with better performance. Would take several days to blast through a large maount of stone cover (IIRC, a small ridge) with just plasma cannon.
I don't think it's so much "newer models" as that the newer ones are in better condition.
I had been curious, even excited, to see how the Posleen in this book would deal with naval warships, and what new weapons and tactics might be shown. Well, turns out they have virtually no idea about watercraft (you'd think they'd be important to a race that can't swim) and no nothing of naval tactics. So they send a whole bunch of C-Decs escorted by tenar as an air attack.
Remember that they have ridiculously easy spacelift, and that they never remain settled on any one planet for all that long. Watercraft would be important to them, perhaps, but only as civilian infrastructure; they don't stay in one place long enough to justify building seagoing warships that they can't take with them when it's time to abandon the planet.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Vehrec »

A bit of a thought experiment, to figure out how many order of magnitude of Polseen should be able to sustain themselves based on Earth's resources. And we're going to start witht he most basic one, food.

Now, modern estimates of the limits of agriculture place the maximum carrying capacity of the earth at anywhere between 2 billion Americans and 40 billion starving dirt farmers. I'll assume that 20 billion is a more realistic figure for a vegetarian society with total arable land utilization. Now, the Polseen can eat almost anything, so I'll be generous and double the amount of terrain they can put under cultivation. That's 40 billion human equivalents. Polseen aren't human equivelent. They're the size, and presumeably the mass of a horse. Horses consumed, when they were a major part of armies, ten times as much as humans, and I find it hard to believe that they could improve on that by more than a factor of two. So we have a range of 4-8 billion Polseen, of all types. That includes their young, which given population patterns, might be the actual majority of individuals, or at least a sizable minority.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by jollyreaper »

"The law," said the Darhel's AID in an artificial voice, "stands above sentient creatures, above their political and commercial systems, above the perceived needs of the present crisis or of any crisis. Before there were men, there was law."

Mercedes nodded his most profound agreement. Without the law, I could never take as much as I do.

"It has come to our attention that the Republic of Panama, at the instigation of the United States, has decided to adopt certain defensive measures prohibited by your own laws of war. I refer specifically to the planned use of antipersonnel landmines."

Mercedes' brow furrowed in puzzlement. He recalled being briefed on some such but the details . . . ? Well, military details hardly interested him absent the opportunity for graft.
lol the Protocols of the Elders of Zion didn't lay it on this thick. The only thing this guy didn't do was chortle about how promoting the gay lifestyle ruins straight marriages. EBIL LIBRALS!! lol
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by CaptainChewbacca »

As I recall, nobody in the Ringo-verse cares if a person is gay, straight, or bi-curious as long as they're willing to kill Posleen.
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Simon_Jester
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Simon_Jester »

Jollyreaper, I think I'm missing something. The Darhel is mock-piously going on about the importance of Law. The Third World dictator is thinking about graft and corruption because he's a treacherous bastard.

Can you explain in a little more detail and depth exactly what is being laid on thickly? Is it the idea that international law is a pretext for crippling the Righteous God-Fearing People's military in wartime? Or is it something else?
CaptainChewbacca wrote:As I recall, nobody in the Ringo-verse cares if a person is gay, straight, or bi-curious as long as they're willing to kill Posleen.
Yes, and if you look through other Ringo books you do find openly gay characters here and there. At least, I think they're Ringo's; much of his writing is collaborative so it's hard to be entirely sure.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Ahriman238 »

And moving on to the lovingly described ships.

Humans:
"First, honey, we're moving you to dry dock. You're going to be scraped clean and then we're going to give you a new layer of barnacle-proof plastic these aliens have given us. You're going to have a bottom smoother than a new baby girl's ass. That's going to add four or five knots to your speed, babe.

"While that's going on," he continued, "we'll be taking out your old turbines and fuel tanks and giving you nuclear power and electric propulsion. Modular pebble bed reactors for the power, two of them, and AZIPOD drive. Between those and the plastic you'll do a little over forty-two knots, I think, and turn on a dime.

"The weight saved on engines and fuel is going to add-on armor, hon; good stuff, too. There's some new design coming from off-planet—though we'll actually manufacture it here—that resists the weapons you'll have to face."

McNair looked up at the triple eight-inch guns projecting from turret two. "They were marvels in their day, girl, outshooting and outranging anything similar. But wait until you see the new ones. The Mark-16s are out. We're putting in automatic seventy caliber Mark-71, Mod 1s: faster firing, longer ranged, and more accurate. Going to have to open up or pull all your main turrets to do that. We'll have to pull off your twin five-inch, thirty-eights, too. They'll be mounting single Mark-71s, but the ammo load will be different for those. Different mission from the main turrets' guns.

"Think of it, babes: fifteen eight-inch guns throwing more firepower than any two dozen other heavy cruisers ever could have.

"And your twin three-inch mounts are going. The Air Force is giving up forty thirty-millimeter chain guns from their A-10s for you and your sister."

McNair looked down, as if seeing through the deck and the armored belt below. "We're changing you around inside, too, a bit. Automated strikedown for your magazines, a lot more magazine capacity—you're going to need it, and more automation in general. You're going to get some newfangled alien computer to run it all, too.

"Crew's dropping. Between the rust- and barnacle-proof hull and the automation, you aren't going to need but a third of what you used to. You were always a great ship; you're going to be a damned luxury liner in comparison."
Upgrades to the USS. Des Moines. Plastic hull that resists growths, increased armor, I believe of the same stuff they make the 1A4 Abrams with later. Pebble-bed nuclear reactors (note the ship only needs half the reactors of a SheVa.) and AZIPOD, which just means instead of having a rudder, you have steerable pods with electric engines in them. Vastly reduced crew requirements through automation, all the primary and secondary weapons replaced with new 8" guns, and vastly increased AA capability.

If the other warships got this treatment, maybe bringing back the battleships wasn't as insae as it seemed. Nah, it still was, it's just a bit more awesome now.
The Des Moines had four lines of defense, so to speak, against alien attack. The most visually impressive of these, the three triple turrets of eight-inch guns, were already engaged, spewing forth canister and time-fused high explosive. At the current range the time-fused shells were most effective. Unfortunately, both forward turrets were fully occupied in trying to blast a hole through the southern quadrant of the Posleen net.

The rear turret, on the other hand, was totally inadequate to covering the one hundred and eighty degrees it would have to if the Posleen were to be kept away. Daisy tried, even so, switching the gun madly from one alien cluster to another.

The secondary line of defense was composed of the six upgraded Mark 71 turrets, emplaced in lieu of the old twin five-inch mounts. These were actually the first line of defense if, as the Posleen had before, the enemy used landers to attack. The barbettes and magazines below those turrets carried only anti-lander ammunition, solid bolts of depleted uranium. These could be effective against individual tenar, but their rate of fire was just not adequate to a massed tenar attack; though no one had really imagined any of the formerly three-ship flotilla having to stand alone as the Des Moines was now. Moreover, it was a case of almost absurd overkill to use a two-hundred and sixty pound depleted uranium bolt against a single flying sled carrying a single God King.
Anti-lander batteries on the cruisers are 8" guns firing discarding sabot DU rounds (I sometimes wish they'd fire something else, just once or twice at the landers, to see what happens) in this case 260 lbs (118 kg) of the stuff. This is probably the absolute lower limit of anti-lander weapons, since they can only penetrate at relatively short ranges, and sometimes fail to penetrate by hitting at the wrong angle.
The third line of defense, the gun tubs, had been intended for 20mm antiaircraft guns. These had been replaced in design by twin three-inch mounts when it was discovered that a 20mm shell was simply too small to stop a determined kamikaze. The three-inch mounts had, in turn, been recently replaced by fully automated turrets housing five-barreled, 30mm Gatlings, stripped from A-10 aircraft that had become useless, having had no possible chance of survival against automated Posleen air defenses.

The fourth line of defense?

"Jesus," prayed McNair, "I hope it doesn't come to that." He then added, half jokingly, "We don't have a single cutlass aboard."

Daisy, eyes closed now as if concentrating on her targeting, as in fact she was, answered, "Have Sintarleen pass out the submachine guns I traded for. He knows where they are. Indian built Sterlings. They're simple enough that anyone can use one after five minutes' familiarization."

"Submachine guns?" McNair asked incredulously.

Eyes still closed, Daisy asked, "Would you have actually preferred cutlasses? I was watching Master and Commander and got to thinking . . ."

Without another word McNair spoke over the shipwide intercom. "Mr. Sinbad, this is the captain. Pass out the small arms . . . the . . . Sterlings. And all hands, now hear this: I never expected to say this, boys, but . . . all hands stand by to repel boarders."
Increased AA capability and, of course, thin red line.
"It makes no sense," McNair said aloud inside the heavily armored bridge. "It just seems so incredibly stupid that none of the warships have been engaged from space. We're big. We're metal. We're heavily armored and have impressive clusters of guns. Why the hell don't they attack us?"

Daisy's hologram answered, "They're a fairly stupid race, Captain. None of their technology, so far is as known, was invented by them, with the possible exception of their drive. Even that appears to be a modification of Aldenata technology, rather than something truly original. The way they breed, leaving their brightest to struggle to survive on equal terms in their breeding pens with the biggest and most savage of their normals; they can't help but be stupid. Add in that they've never before fought a race that really fought back and . . . well . . . they're dummies."

"And when we show our teeth?" McNair asked. "Will they fail to engage us then, too?"

The avatar shrugged. "That we will see when we see it, Captain. They might attack. Then again, they might not. And if they attack it might be from space, which we have a chance of maneuvering to avoid, or it might be with a low-flying lander which we have an excellent chance of beating in a heads-up fight. Even if we cannot maneuver to avoid the fire from space, Texas mounts a Planetary Defense Gun in place of each of her former turrets. An attacker who engages us from on high won't last long with Texas watching out for his little sisters."
Des Moines is operating as a small squadron with Salem and the battleship Texas. Texas has been refit as an anti-lander platform and is carrying 5 of the 100mm grav-cannon from the PDCs. They can't depress enough to engage most aerial targets, but can fire into orbit and the two cruisers can in theory protect it from lower ships.
"All three are named for places in the central part of the continent to the north of us," the Artificial Sentience said, transliterated names appearing to the upper right of each ship's silhouette. "The one marked Tek-sas appears to be configured as an anti-spacecraft vessel, mounting five planetary defense cannon."

"Five!" Binastarion exclaimed. That sounded like a lot of anti-spacecraft defense.

"Yes, lord. While these vessels are vulnerable to attack from space there will be a heavy price to be paid if we relaunch B- or C-Decs, not only from the ship but from the Planetary Defense Bases stretched across the narrowest part of this isthmus."

"The other two, Sah-lehm and Deh-moyn, are sisters. They are mostly configured for combat against the surface, land or water, but appear to have a considerable secondary capability against atmospheric targets as well."
Confirmation of Texas grav-cannon.
The guns of USS Des Moines, as well as those of Salem, came in two types. For general work there were the three triple turrets. For anti-lander work there were six individual turrets, one fore, one aft, and two each, port and starboard.

Each of the singles mounted an eight-inch semi-automatic gun, lengthier than those in the triple turrets and firing at a considerably higher velocity. These singles used ammunition, self-contained and not entirely interchangeable with the guns of the triples, though they could fire the more standard ammunition of the triple turrets in a pinch. The normal ammunition for the singles, however, was entirely anti-lander oriented, consisting of armor piercing, discarding sabot, depleted uranium. The APDSDU was adequate to penetrate a Posleen C- or B-Dodecahedron at a range of between twelve and twenty miles, depending on obliquity of the hit. It carried no explosive charge, but would do its damage by the physical destruction of what it passed through, by raising the internal temperature of the compartments it punctured, and by burning.

Depleted uranium burned like the devil.

The general purpose guns, those in the triple turrets, boasted neither the range nor the penetration of the single, anti-lander guns. For the most part they fired high capacity high explosive (or HICAP), twelve kiloton neutron shells (which required national command authority to use), improved conventional munitions (which dispensed smaller bomblets after explosively ejecting the base of the shell), and canister.

ICM was useless. McNair knew better than to ask to open up with nukes. HICAP, fired with a time fuse, would have been useful, certainly, but was not ideal for the purpose at hand.
Anti-lander batteries on the cruisers again, the reason DU sabot rounds don't necessarily need nukes to kill ships. The 8" batteries can penetrate Posleen hull armor at 12-20 miles (19-32 km) depending on angle. I really feel like I should be able to calc that ship armor now.

Main guns fire traditional high explosives, cannister, cluster bombs, and for special occasions 12 kt nukes.
The four single guns able to bear on the starboard side fired simultaneously, as did the three triples; the recoil was enough to shift the entire ship to port. Daisy put on a major holographic display to distract the Posleen's attention away from the real thunder and lightning of thirteen huge guns. The APDSDU, having much greater velocity than canister, struck first. Hit in three places, out of four rounds fired at it, the results on the target were uneven. One penetrator hit too obliquely, on one of the lower left facets as the gun faced the target. This one bounced off and went spinning, trailing smoke and flame, off into the distance before plunging into the sea.

The second and third, however, hit close together and at an angle to force their way through the alien ship's tough skin. The needle sharp points, backed up by foot-tons of energy, first piked into the ship's skin, gained purchase, and sloughed off. The material, depleted uranium, had a peculiar property: it resharpened itself even as the old point dulled. This the penetrators did, at the molecular level, more times than could easily be counted before breaking free into the ship's interior.

In the process of forcing apart such a thickness of tough alien metal, kinetic energy was transformed into heat. A normal in one of the compartments saw only a flash and then went blind as eyeballs melted. The pain of heat blinding was brief in duration. The DU began to burn, raising the internal temperature of the compartment to the point where the Posleen normal's flesh and bones were turned to ash. It never had time enough between blinding and incineration even to scream.

Tough as the outer skin was, the inner compartments were good for little but retaining air should the outer skin have a breach. The DU, less stable now and with both rods burning fiercely, cut through the inner compartments as if they were not there. More Posleen succumbed, some to heat, others to the thick smoke, hot enough itself to sear lungs and toxic to boot. Still others were smashed into pulp. Machinery, likewise, was crushed and broken if it chanced to be along the penetrators' paths. Parts of both machinery and walls added further to the interior carnage as they were broken loose and went careening back and forth around the compartments, each piece shredding any flesh unlucky enough to be in its path.

The penetrators were not done, however. Having slashed their way all across the interior of the ship they came upon the far hull. They lacked orientation, mass and energy at that point to knife through. Instead, still burning, they bounced off and started back, repeating the process of slaughter.

No one ever knew, nor shall they ever know, how many times the penetrators ricocheted back and forth through the ship. Even as the lead Posleen C-Dec heeled over and began to plunge into the sea one of them must have breached its antimatter containment unit. The C-Dec disappeared in a stunning flash that could be seen as far away as Panama City.
More evidence that the cruiser guns can only just penetrate. Morbidly amusing to see the same problem the ACS has with the ships, namely that rounds can't punch through the armor from the inside and richochet endlessly within. First time we see what happens inside a ship hit with DU anti-lander, and it is not pretty.
"Other things are going well, Mr. President," the general offered. "The five planetary defense bases should be completed prior to the expected date of the first wave. Fortifications are being built across the isthmus."
When the first landing happened, there were 5 PDCs in the entire world, and they were half finished, lacking most of their grav-cannon and any pretense of armor. Reputably, the President threatened to recall all US forces from Barwhon and Diess if they didn't get as many grav-cannon as they needed. So by the second landing, we have grav-cannon equipped battleships and 5 PDCs in Panama alone.
"He thinks that the reason the enemy do not engage the micrometeorites in space is because their sensors have been deliberately 'dialed down,' that they are set not to notice things of insufficient mass or velocity or a combination of the two. He has done the calculations and determined that if the enemy's sensors are dialed down to where meteorites are unseen, then birds simply do not appear on their sensors. He thinks that slow, really slow, moving gliders might also go unnoticed, at least some of the time.

"He's firmly enough convinced of this that he has talked me into raising a small force of these gliders for operational reconnaissance. He's even joined this force."
The idea that Posleen autotarget won't work on non-powered recon flight, ie. balloons and gliders. The normals will still happily blast away at anything as big and low as a balloon, but that still leaves gliders.
"Ummm . . . well . . . Japan doesn't recognize anyone else's patents or copyrights . . . sooo . . . I sold them some rights to some GalTech that had never been registered there with their patent office. Little things. Nothing important. Antigravity. Nanotechnology."
Daisy Mae takes out a couple of patents. Any idea if this is true?
The guns were really quite remarkable specimens of their type; perhaps the ultimate version of the quick firing guns like the French "Seventy-five" that had made the First World War such a nightmare. Compared to the SD-44, the French "Seventy-five" was pretty small beans.

Each could throw a seventeen-pound shell up to seventeen kilometers and do so at a rate of up to twenty-five rounds a minute, maximum, or up to three hundred per hour, sustained. Moreover, since they had been designed by Russians who believed that all defense was antitank defense, the guns had a fair capability against light and medium armor. They were, in fact, the very same design as used on the Type-63 light tanks the gringos had purchased for Panama from the People's Republic of China. Lastly, each gun had an auxiliary engine that could propel it along at a brisk twenty-four kilometers per hour without the need for a light truck to serve as a prime mover. They had the trucks, mind you, but they didn't absolutely need them. They also had horses, lots of horses, in case the trucks and guns ran out of fuel.
The guns could fire high explosive, or HE, smoke and illumination. They could also fire an armor piercing shell that would collanderize anything but a main battle tank. Digna knew that the antitank capability was likely to be completely useless.

Best of all, in her opinion, the guns could fire canister: four hundred iron balls per shell—over three thousand from the massed battery—that would make short work of a column attack. So she hoped anyway.
SOme of the Russian artillery sold to Panama. Actually, every South American goverment is arming itself to the teeth, the invasion has been very kind to arms dealers and antions with lots of military surplus.
"The ship is back, lord," the AS said when it finally answered. "It can throw as much of this artillery as would a ten of tens of the heaviest sort used by the thresh who fight on the ground."
I like the ships, and 15 8" guns is a lot of firepower, but as much as 100 heavy artillery pieces?
The setting sun burned hot against his face as Major General Manuel Cortez, standing in the hatch of his Chinese-built Type-63 light amphibious tank, faced west. The tank was not a marvel of engineering or workmanship; it rattled like a baby's toy and shook like a rat in a terrier's mouth. The best that could be said of it was that it was simple, reasonably reliable, and amphibious. Oh, and cheap; that was important, too.
Chinese amphibious tanks are pretty much all the armor Panama gets. El presidente was quite upset he wouldn't be able to get free Abrams from the US, sell them to his neighbors at jacked-up prices and then buy a few cheap Chinese tanks and pocket the considerable difference.
With each liftoff, Boyd had shaken his head with wonder, in part at the courage of the young pilots, and in part at the patent insanity of their chosen mechanism of attaining flight.
The gliders, though they had auxiliary propulsion engines, had not used their engines. Young Diaz had explained that it was his understanding that every Posleen with a direct line of sight, possibly to include those still in space, would have instantly engaged any such attempt. Instead, the gliders had been dismounted from their trailers, nose down, while long, and very large, balloons had been laid out behind them. The ground crews had then strapped the pilots into their seats, rotated them by hand to face downward, and manhandled them into the cockpits in that position. After the pilots were placed, the balloons had been secured to both the gliders and the ground. Tanks of helium had then been connected to the balloons, filling them until they stood huge and fat above the gliders, swaying in the wind. The whole process took nearly an hour.

At that point the balloons had been released from their ground tethers to shoot into the air like rockets. A few brief seconds lapsed for the pilots before the ropes connecting the gliders with the balloons grew taut. At that point, the gliders dutifully followed the balloons up, up and away. Both balloons and gliders were too high by far for Boyd to see when the pilots released their cables, freed themselves from the balloons' tug, fell a few score feet, and began to soar.
Balloons used to get the recon gliders to altitude. Really suprising no one else came up with it.
There was no more difficult operation in all of the military art than a withdrawal while in contact with the enemy. To do so over a broad front, with troops already badly disorganized by combat would have been impossible but for three facts: that the fires of the gringo ship had even more badly disorganized the Posleen, that most of Suarez's regimental artillery—three batteries of Russian-built self propelled guns—was intact, and that Suarez had control of most of a company of ACS.
Massive artillery support is crucial to disengaging from Posleen.
Ostentatiously unsheathing a bayonet to show what she wanted her children, real and adopted, to do, she affixed it to the front of her rifle.

"Fix bayonets . . . Chaaarge!" she screamed, launching her less-than-five-foot frame forward.
With an inarticulate cry, her children leapt forward as well. They soon overtook their tiny commander, reaching the confused Posleen well before she did. As stunned as they were, and terrified by thresh that fought back, the Posleen barely resisted. A few tried to fight and were gunned or stabbed down. Others stood there, helpless, while bayonets sought out their vitals.
The bulk of them ran like nestlings from the sausage maker, pouring into the gap created by the one short blast of intense mortar fire. At the gap, the lead Posleen in the rout ran head on into the next wave following. Instead of being forced back into the fray, however, the routers simply barreled into their fellows, bellowing, snarling, scratching, biting and slashing to get away from the little demons that followed on their heels.
Another lunatic charge that works because the Posleen are so shocked when the hiding and sniping aliens charge them.
In Boyd's field of view, overhead, heading westward, a heavy lift helicopter crossed Lemon Bay on its way to the newly building Planetary Defense Base, or PDB, at the old gringo coast artillery position at Battery Pratt on Fort Sherman. Beneath the helicopter some indefinable, but obviously heavy, cargo hung by a sling. Landing craft, both medium and heavy, likewise plied the waters of the bay, bringing from the modern port of Cristobal to old Fort Sherman the wherewithal to build that base. Other bases, four of them, were also under construction across the isthmus. Three of these, the one at Battery Pratt and the others at Battery Murray at Fort Kobbe and Fort Grant off of Fort Amador on the Pacific side, took advantage of previously existing, and very strong, bunkers that had once made up the impressive system of coastal fortifications for the Canal Zone. Two others, and these were brand new in every way, were still being constructed atop the continental divide near Summit Heights and out at sea in the center of the Isla del Rey.
5 Panamanian PDCs, the only things not falling off trucks and sticking to fingers. In the afterword, RIngo and Kratman admit to taking extensive liberties with geography here.
Looking down towards the captain's shoes—Sinbad was a relatively bold Indowy—the alien answered, "Nanites, lord. They will go into the very body of the ship and create an . . . an area, a route, through which electrical power can pass without loss to the surrounding metal. It can also transmit commands."
Sohon, the Des Moines and other ships get a 'nervous system' of nanites through them that run information and power around the ship, but don't take up any space or weaken the hull in any way.
The mines now were better, though: little four-ounce plastic toe-poppers suitable for splitting a Posleen's leg from claw to spur, Bouncing Betties that would be propelled upwards a meter before detonating to spread a scythe of steel ball bearings over three hundred and sixty degrees, and MONS, very large directional mines built to a Russian design. There was also a model of mine armed or disarmed by radio control; the brainchild of a gringo tracked-vehicle mechanic who had thought long on the problem of how to get across the extensive minefields without leaving passable gaps for the Posleen to get through in the first place.

Best of all, the Americans had provided a number—a large number—of their own "Bouncing Barbies," so called because they would cut one off at the knees. They worked by first bouncing into the air and then creating an infinitely thin "force field" around them. They used a human variant of an Indowy technology, one of the few humans had been able to crack (and that had been by purest mischance). The Barbies would bounce and cut again and again and again until either destroyed or their on-board charges ran out.
Bouncing Barbies, and other fun toys, now that Panama was undergone a hero-led coup and withdrawn from the pesky anti-mine treaties.
Along with their ammunition, each man of B Company had trudged in with two dozen of the nasty little flat cylinders that projected force fields to all sides when triggered by the presence of a life form. It had been a hard decision for Snyder to order the things carried, possibly a harder one for Connors to enforce. The suits' armor would not stop the force fields. Just as the Barbies chopped legs and torsos off the Posleen, so too would they have sliced the MI troopers in two had one of them been inadvertently activated.
Each ACS trooper can carry 24 Barbies into action, even with his standard full loadout. ACS vulnerable as anyone to the Barbies.
"Any plan which requires the direct intervention of any deity to work can be assumed to be a very poor one."- Newbiespud
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Junghalli »

Vehrec wrote:A bit of a thought experiment, to figure out how many order of magnitude of Polseen should be able to sustain themselves based on Earth's resources. And we're going to start witht he most basic one, food.

Now, modern estimates of the limits of agriculture place the maximum carrying capacity of the earth at anywhere between 2 billion Americans and 40 billion starving dirt farmers. I'll assume that 20 billion is a more realistic figure for a vegetarian society with total arable land utilization. Now, the Polseen can eat almost anything, so I'll be generous and double the amount of terrain they can put under cultivation. That's 40 billion human equivalents. Polseen aren't human equivelent. They're the size, and presumeably the mass of a horse. Horses consumed, when they were a major part of armies, ten times as much as humans, and I find it hard to believe that they could improve on that by more than a factor of two. So we have a range of 4-8 billion Polseen, of all types. That includes their young, which given population patterns, might be the actual majority of individuals, or at least a sizable minority.
Another way of going about this might be to figure out how many tons of herbivore the Earth's biosphere could support.

The most common estimate of the biosphere's mass here is ~1.8 trillion dry tons, mostly on land (only ~4 billion tons is marine), with an annual primary productivity of 224.5 billion tons (as I remember, this is about evenly split between ocean and land - IIRC ocean and land primary productivity is about equal, but turnover is a lot faster in the ocean).
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Vejut »

For the armor equivalent calc, I recommend FACEHARD and NAaB off warships1, or BIGGUN off another site on the internet I can't recall. Both will probably get you into the area--BIGGUN is less accurate, but you could literally just punch in 8" caliber, 71 caliber length (or muzzle velocity and penetrator diameter and weight) and shot angle and get a rough result. The answer is likely to be "not a whole lot" and "Ringo screwed up his math again because he doesn't know much about artillery." If 8" guns can punch a C-dec marginally at 20 miles (i.e. most of the way to the horizon at ground level, IIRC), it really makes you wonder why they felt they needed the shiva uber-cannons.

also 8" guns aren't "equivalent to 100 heavy artillery pieces"--they are the light end of heavy artillery pieces. Before improved ballistics more or less negated the need for bigger than 155mm, your standard SP field artillery during the middle cold war was a pairing of 155mm backed with a smaller number of 8" pieces. Heck, Atomic Anne was 11", and we used full length guns in 8" and howitzers in 11" in WWII as siege guns.

also weird: those Russian artillery pieces appear to be literally successors of the french 75--17lb shells puts them around 3" caliber (the British 17lb AT gun was only 78mm), oddly small for anything but a regimental gun, and weren't most of those replaced with 120mm mortars a while back?
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Connor MacLeod »

the thing about comparing guns is tht it gets messy when you start throwing in DU discarding sabot ammo, because alot of other factors come into play.. you're pressing up to that hypervelocity threshhold where solid materials (barring really magic ones) behave differently than with a supersonic gun shell. There's also differences in force/pressure due to the variations in velocity or mass and the shape of the round.

Looking into flechette ammo for rifles (both for AMRs and assault rifles) vs regular rifles might give a comparison. Comparing tank guns might as well, although I don't think nay 120mm non-saboted tank guns were ever used Kinetic energy rounds. The closest would be 4-5" naval guns, but don't quote me on that.

Also the Des Moines gun again want to make me laugh at the idea of SheVa. The fact alone that they can penetrate, even if it isn't a guaranteed penetration, indicates just how absurdly overkill (and overdesigned) SheVa was.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Simon_Jester »

Vejut wrote:For the armor equivalent calc, I recommend FACEHARD and NAaB off warships1, or BIGGUN off another site on the internet I can't recall. Both will probably get you into the area--BIGGUN is less accurate, but you could literally just punch in 8" caliber, 71 caliber length (or muzzle velocity and penetrator diameter and weight) and shot angle and get a rough result. The answer is likely to be "not a whole lot" and "Ringo screwed up his math again because he doesn't know much about artillery." If 8" guns can punch a C-dec marginally at 20 miles (i.e. most of the way to the horizon at ground level, IIRC), it really makes you wonder why they felt they needed the shiva uber-cannons.
Absolutely. From previous discussions, a self-propelled long-barreled 8" gun firing nuclear shells would probably fit on an Abrams chassis, or at most a slightly extended chassis in the ~100 ton range. That would give you, arguably, SheVa-level performance on a platform of about 1 to 1.5% the weight and with a much smaller target profile.
also 8" guns aren't "equivalent to 100 heavy artillery pieces"--they are the light end of heavy artillery pieces. Before improved ballistics more or less negated the need for bigger than 155mm, your standard SP field artillery during the middle cold war was a pairing of 155mm backed with a smaller number of 8" pieces. Heck, Atomic Anne was 11", and we used full length guns in 8" and howitzers in 11" in WWII as siege guns.
Yes, but the biggest field guns the Posleen have encountered are 155mm; 8" guns do not make a comeback for most applications. Moreover, I think a lot of that calculation is from rate of fire. One of the big innovations in naval artillery post-WWII, largely overshadowed by the rise of the guided missile, was the development of semi-automatic artillery pieces in the 6" to 8" range, which load much more quickly than is normal for land-based guns.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Vejut »

After some googling:

BigGun can be found here.

Ran the numbers with it for an 8" diameter, 260 lb shell, 71 calibers, assuming WWII level armor and shell shape--22 inches penetration at muzzle, 3"-4" depending on what it hit at 36,000 yds, which should be somewhere close to 20 miles. Of course, real DU shell would hit a smaller area and carry better so...

19.05 g/cm3 for DU, assume 10:1 length-to-diameter ratio on the penetrator, 118,000g. Cylinder volume is height times pi times radius squared, so putting it together, 190.5*pi*r3=118,000, r=5.82cm, 4.6" diameter penetrator, 3598fps speed given the energy from an 8"L/71, roughly 38" of WWII era armor steel at the muzzle hitting flat on, still ripping along good enough for 20" of steel at 20 miles. Only goes up to 26" at 12 miles. This assumes that the armor is at flat vertical, and same level, and the calculator is at least close, which as Connor said, isn't guaranteed (though I've run similar things on it before, and while I can't say how accurate it is, it at least gives beleiveable numbers)

Edit to respond to simon and connor:
Also, IIRC, you're only talking 10 rpm instead of 2-3 rpm for the semi-auto naval guns vs. Shep's numbers for soviet feild guns
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Beowulf »

It should be noted that you're dealing with a twice as heavy shell for the 8" compared to the 155mm. If you manage a 3x increase in rate of fire with the 8" over the 155mm, because you're using semi-automatic instead of manual loading, it's actually not far from 100x more weight of fire from the cruiser compared to a single 155mm gun. Of course, if you're using a modern semi-automatic howitzer like the PzH 2000, instead of a M109, you're not going to get that same differential.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Simon_Jester »

Yes- so 15 8" guns firing at 10 rpm, 150 8" shells per minute.

This is compared to (sustained) fire of 100 6" guns... How many 6" shells would it take to replicate the effect of those 8" shells? 300, for 3 rounds per minute per gun? 400 shells (4 rpm) sounds unduly pessimistic to me.

So- 3 to 4 rpm for the hypothetical 6" land-based field artillery the Posleen are thinking of. That doesn't sound entirely unreasonable to me for a sustained rate of fire. Sure, the 6" guns can fire faster than that, but not sustainably, unless I am much mistaken.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Vejut »

Doing a raw volume guess...yeah, little more than double the volume (about 2.3x) assuming the same proportions, probably proportional explosive or ICM load and it wouldn't surprise me if the Panamanians where using older field guns and SP guns with a lower rate of fire. Fair enough. Even more so when you consider that Ringo possibly holds those Russian 3" mentioned as "heavy artillery", which would given an even more lopsided count, 17lb shells vs. 200+ lb shells even if they make it back up a little in rate of fire.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Vejut wrote:For the armor equivalent calc, I recommend FACEHARD and NAaB off warships1, or BIGGUN off another site on the internet I can't recall. Both will probably get you into the area--BIGGUN is less accurate, but you could literally just punch in 8" caliber, 71 caliber length (or muzzle velocity and penetrator diameter and weight) and shot angle and get a rough result. The answer is likely to be "not a whole lot" and "Ringo screwed up his math again because he doesn't know much about artillery." If 8" guns can punch a C-dec marginally at 20 miles (i.e. most of the way to the horizon at ground level, IIRC), it really makes you wonder why they felt they needed the shiva uber-cannons.
Yeah certainly penetration will be damn low at anything like 20 miles. 120mm sabot rounds loose about 50-75m/s per km of travel. Even if we assume the much heavier 8 inch sabot only suffers half the lower end of that loss, and left the barrel at 1600m/s it would loose half its velocity by the time it arrived at the target. This is then similar the initial MV of an 8 inch gun firing normal sorts of ammo. The end result is unlikely to defeat more then 300-450mm of RHA or somewhat less face hardened armor. Even if this number is too low, it could be a lot higher and the majority of modern anti tank weapons should be capable of defeating the same lander hulls. The big gun numbers you have are similar to my back of the envelope work so,so I'd say good enough for a debate. Ringo did not think this out at all. Almost any remotely modern tank gun would be able to inflict damage if it got close enough.
also weird: those Russian artillery pieces appear to be literally successors of the french 75--17lb shells puts them around 3" caliber (the British 17lb AT gun was only 78mm), oddly small for anything but a regimental gun, and weren't most of those replaced with 120mm mortars a while back?
The Russians replaced the 76mm and 85mm regimental guns with a 122mm howitzer in the 1960s, they still use it in that role. D-30 towed and Self propelled 2S1. Excellent all around weapon; various 120mm mortars are battalion level fire support. Russia also produced over 500 2S7 self propelled 8 inch guns in the 1980s; proper GUNS with I think it a 45 cal barrel on the thing. They should be tearing landers apart from day one. Main nuclear artillery piece alongside the 240mm 2S4 mortar of Russian land forces too.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Simon_Jester wrote:Yes- so 15 8" guns firing at 10 rpm, 150 8" shells per minute.

This is compared to (sustained) fire of 100 6" guns... How many 6" shells would it take to replicate the effect of those 8" shells? 300, for 3 rounds per minute per gun? 400 shells (4 rpm) sounds unduly pessimistic to me.

So- 3 to 4 rpm for the hypothetical 6" land-based field artillery the Posleen are thinking of. That doesn't sound entirely unreasonable to me for a sustained rate of fire. Sure, the 6" guns can fire faster than that, but not sustainably, unless I am much mistaken.
Without water cooling neither caliber is going to do more then 2rpm sustained, and it will drop off to under 1rpm if your talking an hour instead of twenty minutes. US eight inch weapons in WW2 were good for around 45 rounds per hour, nothing has really changed that since except active cooling. The real Des Monies high ROF was mainly useful for establishing the range, anti aircraft fire and sudden close actions; sustaining the bombardment was not on the menu. If you want sustained weight of fire rocket launchers basically always win, the fire comes in spurts but they don't overheat and the average heavily favors them since one MLRS launcher salvo is similar to forty 8 inch rounds and it can reload in about 10 minutes.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Simon_Jester »

Sea Skimmer wrote:The end result is unlikely to defeat more then 300-450mm of RHA or somewhat less face hardened armor. Even if this number is too low, it could be a lot higher and the majority of modern anti tank weapons should be capable of defeating the same lander hulls. The big gun numbers you have are similar to my back of the envelope work so,so I'd say good enough for a debate. Ringo did not think this out at all. Almost any remotely modern tank gun would be able to inflict damage if it got close enough.
Is "close enough" something like "roughly one kilometer," or "roughly 100 meters?" The latter could be tricky against an airborne target; even the former requires driving the tank pretty close to something that is well armed to destroy you from longer distances.
Sea Skimmer wrote:Without water cooling neither caliber is going to do more then 2rpm sustained, and it will drop off to under 1rpm if your talking an hour instead of twenty minutes. US eight inch weapons in WW2 were good for around 45 rounds per hour, nothing has really changed that since except active cooling. The real Des Monies high ROF was mainly useful for establishing the range, anti aircraft fire and sudden close actions; sustaining the bombardment was not on the menu. If you want sustained weight of fire rocket launchers basically always win, the fire comes in spurts but they don't overheat and the average heavily favors them since one MLRS launcher salvo is similar to forty 8 inch rounds and it can reload in about 10 minutes.
Very true- from the sound of it, the main reason for building the ships at all is to provide a bastard hybrid between naval fire support (which could conceivably be done by mounting a boatload of MLRS launchers on a fast freighter) and a seagoing anti-lander platform (which would be trickier, though it would be interesting to see how well individual landers would handle having several dozen rockets tossed their way at once).
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Raxmei »

How much difference is there in the cost of replacing an old warship's engines, screws, electronics, and weapons compared to making a completely new ship? Reusing the hull doesn't seem like such a savings when it means ripping out all of the really expensive bits and stuffing in other stuff that was never meant to fit there in their place.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Sea Skimmer »

Simon_Jester wrote:Is "close enough" something like "roughly one kilometer," or "roughly 100 meters?" The latter could be tricky against an airborne target; even the former requires driving the tank pretty close to something that is well armed to destroy you from longer distances.
Like several kilometers or more, it takes a while for velocity to drop off enough to matter all that much at ~50m/s per km; modern tank guns effective ranges are normally all governed by accuracy concerns unlike the WW2 era when velocity drop off was more abrupt and the cannon generally less stupid powerful. The earth can afford to loose some tanks, keeping in mind that T-72 production alone was over 25,000 vehicles and well over half still exist. I recall I read somewhere not long ago that the US estimated that ‘threat’ nations alone held about 40,000 tanks of all types. Many would be inoperable, but repairs are a matter of months, not years. Those crazy Soviets declared 69,000 tanks in the CFE treaty; they could and did keep 13,000 in Europe but many of the rest were shipped to Siberia or ended up in CIS nations…
Very true- from the sound of it, the main reason for building the ships at all is to provide a bastard hybrid between naval fire support (which could conceivably be done by mounting a boatload of MLRS launchers on a fast freighter) and a seagoing anti-lander platform (which would be trickier, though it would be interesting to see how well individual landers would handle having several dozen rockets tossed their way at once).
It sounds like the reason behind the ship is the author just never thought anything out. Humanity can find resources to build brand new heavy cruisers with guns that were never mass produced and multi thousand ton tanks, how is the entire war not a cakewalk by this point!? Just like the super tank, a large heavy warship draws on some very expensive and limited industrial assets. Meanwhile for rocket launchers we need… a big pile of gunpowder and explosives. Nothing specialist at all and all tasks can be performed by the light side of industry and take advantage of all our modern robotic mass production methods.

The US produced 1,300 MLRS launchers without even trying, Russia built hundreds of Smerch launchers in just a few years without really trying (only had like five other MRL systems in production) and the number of BM-21 launchers made in Russia alone is so high nobody knows an accurate figure to within five hundred (which is a modest 20,000 launch tubes!). Given what we are seeing on 8 inch performance it’s totally plausible that a 122mm HEAT rocket would become a threat of a hull breach. Even after the stupid CFE treaty scrapping spree the European theater still has 40,000 artillery pieces and mortars over 100mm in it already.

Putting stuff like this on a war mobilization footing, against an enemy too dumb to attack industry, it’d get joke like before you could launch the hull on a new heavy cruiser which is a three year job to be charitable. It’d be totally plausible to have a single factory that makes 150,000 BM-21 type launchers, though maybe a larger caliber, smaller tube for a bigger HEAT warhead, each year. I do mean just the launchers, not the vehicles (and base this on light truck plants existing that produce these kind of numbers of far more complicated trucks), but even if many lacked prime movers this would allow emplacing them in fixed or towed batteries all the over the world to defend key infrastructure. If the world converted five factories to work like this and produced 750,000 launchers with say 26 x 160mm tubes (Israeli LAROM, also fires 122mm) that’s only 19,500,000 rockets that can be held ready to fire to await invasions all over the planet. What ever shall we do? You need like 200,000 tons of explosives to fill that many rockets, but that doesn’t seem like a deal killer given global preparation. The US dropped over 1 million tons of actual high explosives on Vietnam, and this was not anything like a war mobilization.

Note that 15 countries already produce ammunition for the 122mm Grad alone, the world ultimately produced about 1 billion shells in WW1 with basically zero preparation for the job, only part of its resources mobilized for the task, and a fraction of modern the GDP and meanwhile while producing artillery rockets is easier then making artillery shells.

To stop rambling, Ringo is stupid, the world could make epic levels of firepower, and ammunition would be the critical issue, and making more ammo which requires making machine tools and large factories would directly compete against the wonderwaffen. Authors, military background or not tend to have no littleof how much firepower really goes into mass wars and how the only reason all of humanity doesn't just die is because so much is wasted pounding dug in positions or just completely missing the target. A stupid enemy who attacks in masses is just going to get murdered.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

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Simon_Jester wrote:Jollyreaper, I think I'm missing something. The Darhel is mock-piously going on about the importance of Law. The Third World dictator is thinking about graft and corruption because he's a treacherous bastard.

Can you explain in a little more detail and depth exactly what is being laid on thickly? Is it the idea that international law is a pretext for crippling the Righteous God-Fearing People's military in wartime? Or is it something else?
CaptainChewbacca wrote:As I recall, nobody in the Ringo-verse cares if a person is gay, straight, or bi-curious as long as they're willing to kill Posleen.
Yes, and if you look through other Ringo books you do find openly gay characters here and there. At least, I think they're Ringo's; much of his writing is collaborative so it's hard to be entirely sure.
Not saying he hates Jews, just that the smear job against liberals is about as bad and blatant as that. He's done the equivalent of giving the liberal politician a hook nose and drinking the blood of Christian babies.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Don't forget there's that silly 'frictionless coating' they put on the grav gun ammo to keep it from vaporising in the atmosphere. I bet they could use that on the vehicle ammo too.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by Simon_Jester »

Sea Skimmer wrote:It sounds like the reason behind the ship is the author just never thought anything out. Humanity can find resources to build brand new heavy cruisers with guns that were never mass produced and multi thousand ton tanks, how is the entire war not a cakewalk by this point!? Just like the super tank, a large heavy warship draws on some very expensive and limited industrial assets. Meanwhile for rocket launchers we need… a big pile of gunpowder and explosives. Nothing specialist at all and all tasks can be performed by the light side of industry and take advantage of all our modern robotic mass production methods...

To stop rambling, Ringo is stupid, the world could make epic levels of firepower, and ammunition would be the critical issue, and making more ammo which requires making machine tools and large factories would directly compete against the wonderwaffen. Authors, military background or not tend to have no littleof how much firepower really goes into mass wars and how the only reason all of humanity doesn't just die is because so much is wasted pounding dug in positions or just completely missing the target. A stupid enemy who attacks in masses is just going to get murdered.
Frankly, yes.

Industrial engineering and the scale of mass mobilization are, as you say, just not the sort of things normal authors handle accurately. The tendency is to think "war -> weapons" and assume that the question begins and ends with "what weapons would Win The War?" Which often gets answered by the rule of cool, like "a post-WWII heavy cruiser retrofitted with newer 8" guns," or by someone making a deeply errant judgment call based on spotty personal knowledge and getting something like "a battleship gun turret mounted on a nuclear powered mine crawler."

Meanwhile, it's been so long since anyone fought an industrialized total war (thank God for that) that the average reader's mental model of armed conflict is skewed in favor of the patterns of lopsided colonial wars and conflicts between third-rate powers who fight using other people's weapons. This creates misconceptions broadly similar to what you saw in the late 19th century:

-Obsession with the importance of morale, HOOAH super training, and the "Western way of war."
-Underestimation of the scale of munitions and manpower used in a really serious war, often by an order of magnitude or more.
-Presumption that all conflicts will be decided by the same basic factors that decide colonial/guerilla/civil wars- the impracticality of occupying a foreign country, the hearts-and-minds effect of winning a war of ideas, things like that.
-Misinterpretation and misapplication of the lessons of past conflicts- people remember things like the Normandy landings without remembering the context of strategy and industry and doctrine that made them necessary and possible. So things get used out of context by people who fail to get the point but want to reprise past glories; compare to Victorian British attitudes toward Waterloo and Trafalgar.
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Re: A bit of analysis: Posleen War

Post by MKSheppard »

CaptainChewbacca wrote:China was punished far more directly. During the second wave, the Darhel manipulated the chinese defense network into authorizing excessive use of tactical nuclear weapons at sub-optimal locations. The resulting fallout contaminated the entire Yangtzee Basin and left a huge chunk of the country uninhabitable.

This was the price exacted for a group of Chinese bureaucrats analyzing the initial force contract treaties with earth and discovering the prices the Darhel were offering were only about 10% of what they would be willing to pay, and then negotiating for the higher price.
:roll: :lol: :roll: :lol:

In Glasstone's non classified public book on the Effects of Nuclear Weapons published in 1977, there are simple equations to calculate the Height of Burst (HOB) at which prompt local fallout ceases to be a concern.

For a 5 kiloton nuclear device, that computes to somewhere between 80 and 136 meters above ground level.

Scaling off 1 kiloton via the tables and equations HERE

gives the near-optimum HOBs to maximize the following effects as being:

50 PSI Airblast (flip light vehicles etc): 239 meters
10,000 Rads (penetrate tank armor etc): 170 meters

Modern tactical nuclear devices are very "clean" and optimized towards minimal fallout so that they can be used relatively close to your own troops -- it does you no good to nuke that COMMIENIST tank column approaching your infantry battalion if the fallout sweeps back over you and incapicates half your command.
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