Avatar Military Wankers Read This First

[Terralthra]

1) Trade would be mediated through Grace and the rest of the xenobiology team. They may not have wanted to try too hard to sell consumer goods to the Na'vi because they know what happens then: the Na'vi become dependent on the stuff and their culture declines, as happened around the world.
2) By the time the movie begins, there has already been a sharp breach between the Na'vi and the humans of the Avatar program. This breach would have a huge effect on the level of scientific curiosity or publically expressed interest in human gadgets that any Na'vi might show, because you don't go oohing and aahing over the wizardy of a foreign enemy unless you want to make yourself look bad.

3) Unless the humans went around specifically making Na'vi sized human technology, the utility of any piece of human technology to the Na'vi would be greatly reduced, due to the Na'vi being ten feet tall and having different ergonomic requirements from humans. Even if a Na'vi wanted a rifle or other technological doodad, the ones available to them would be so tiny that it would seem like they were plaiying with a child's toy rather than a real object. This may just influence their desire to take up said technology.

Humans have already done that. The Avatars were Na'vi-size, after all. Jake's Avatar had a proportionately-sized rifle when he was covering Grace and Norm. This was not a hard image to find. Neither was this. In the same scene, Grace and Norm have perfectly Avatar-sized sampling tools and computers.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Why cast it in theological terms? Eywa isn't protecting the Na'vi from disease as a reward for their lifestyle. Eywa's protecting the Na'vi from disease for the same reason I don't want my clothes to get ripped full of holes- they're valuable and I like them and I don't want them getting damaged needlessly by things I don't like.

If you put it like that, why would the world-brain value the Navi out of self-interest? What do they contribute to it? For that matter, why does it bother to keep all those weird animals around? Would it not be more efficient to just keep the brain-trees and the minimum of scavengers and micro-organisms needed to take care of whatever dead biomass might accrue? Since it can apparently run the animals by remote control, it hardly needs an elaborate hierarchy of predators to keep the populations balanced.

Well, a few ideas come to mind. First, it probably feels good; Eywa's evolved as a complex ecosystem full of independent animals, and may find the idea of paring itself down for efficiency's sake about as attractive as most humans would the idea of removing their head from their body and mounting it on a "more efficient" life support cart. There's no reason to assume that Eywa is motivated by some cold desire for efficiency any more than humans are. Second, Eywa may simply find a full ecosystem more useful, more productive; a fuller toolbox. The pared down version you are suggesting wouldn't have had any animals to fling at the humans, for example.

And third, Cameron seems to have taken some inspiration from Alan Dean Foster's Midworld, which makes me wonder if the Na'vi serve the same purpose as the adapted humans did in that book; as part of the world-mind's "cerebral cortex". The Na'vi are hooked up to Eywa; they may be an important part of its mental functions. For that matter, so may Pandoran animal life in general, as well as serving as sense organs for Eywa.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

I don't think that's a custom built weapon, it looks like a LMG, and Jake just uses it like a rifle because he can, since the avatars are so big.

[Terralthra]

It has Avatar-size handles and a stock on it. If it weren't built for Avatars to use, those are awfully convenient. Even ignoring that, the Avatar-size computers and testing equipment, along with the AMP-suit wielded rifles, are proof that humanity has no problem creating tools for alternate ergonomic needs.

[Ford Prefect]

Seriously, though: What is the alternative to selfishness?

That you're asking this question essentially means that we cannot explain this concept to you. I could have a literally infinite amount of time and an infinite number of examples, with rhetoric penned by a thousand hands from Plato to Milton, and you would never understand. Responding to the statement 'marshaling all the secrets of space, time, relativity and the universe for profit is uncool' with 'oh, but capitalism is the model of human experience' is missing the point so tremendously that the gulf between us cannot be described using the geometry of Euclid.

[Whiskey144]

That you're asking this question essentially means that we cannot explain this concept to you. I could have a literally infinite amount of time and an infinite number of examples, with rhetoric penned by a thousand hands from Plato to Milton, and you would never understand. Responding to the statement 'marshaling all the secrets of space, time, relativity and the universe for profit is uncool' with 'oh, but capitalism is the model of human experience' is missing the point so tremendously that the gulf between us cannot be described using the geometry of Euclid.

I personally would like to hear what your alternative is; not on the basis of "is it really better/an alternative", per se, but out of sheer curiosity.

[Ford Prefect]

I personally would like to hear what your alternative is; not on the basis of "is it really better/an alternative", per se, but out of sheer curiosity.

This is not the forum for that sort of discussion, not in the context of the topic of this thread. Darth Hoth's request for an alternative is simply accidental strawmandering that has no bearing on the central thrust of my interpretation of the film. Messages in a text do not need to fit what might be considered the current social orthodoxy or dominant socioeconomic system. And that's all I have to say about that.

[mr friendly guy]

Such an argument automatically fails the logic test of non contradiction, which was kind of my point.

So, are you claiming that there can be no morally ambiguous wars or conflicts, but only ones where one side is clearly right and the other equally clearly wrong?

No. I am saying the same reason you used to argue that your cause is "right" cannot suddenly be discarded when its used against you.

Why could not one species' morality easily contradict another? You seem to be assuming that morality is somehow an objective fact.

Not relevant since the moral argument came from Adam Griff, and unless he changes species its self contradictory. And morality isn't objective (see below), but its effects clearly are.

I personally do not see the problem. That little riddle just pits the omnipotence against itself. Of course an omnipotent cannot override its own omipotence, but does this ever have any practical implications?

The being should simply be described as very powerful, not omnipotent.

How would morality derived from a god be any more arbitrary than one derived from humans?

You are confusing subjective with arbitrary. Someone who has a rights base, or utilitarianism or a humanist is subjective in the sense that morality would not exist without humans, unlike like say gravity or light which will continue to exist if we are not here. However arbitrary in this context means without rhyme or reason, and practitioners of those moral codes assuming they aren't hypocrites will have a reason behind their actions.

Our morality is arbitrary.

Congratulations. You have just shown that your own morality is no better than the Islamists you rail against. In which case, why do you bother?

But back on topic, no our morality is subjective by definition. If it cannot exist without us humans then its subjective (ie existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought ( opposed to objective). Arbitrary has a different meaning and until you understand the difference its very hard for me to explain things.

I would think a truly omniscient God would be a better judge of morality than we are, even if His morality would of course also be subjective.

You are missing the point. The statement isn't meant to ask you whether God is a better judge of morality than you are. Maybe if you think in terms of a deity which isn't omniscient it might be easier to grasp. The point is does morality as a concept exist independently of God (ie can other people come up with the same rules, even if they might not judge as well because they lack the information God has) or is it defined by whatever God does (ie if God causes it, its "good", if it does the opposite its also "good" despite being self contradictory). The latter is arbitrary (definition one), and those who cry human exceptionalism use the same shaky logical foundations.

[Ahriman238]

As a moderatly religious person, I confess I have no problem with the idea of an objective morality that transcends even God.

There is such a thing as 'enlightened self-intrest' also commonly known as 'not pissing in the stream you drink from.' It's when you use logic (remember logic? We love logic here.) to weigh the relative value of your personal gain versus the common good, plus risk versus benefit, and how they interact in both the short and long term, as well as any factors special to the particular decision you're making.

I'll give you an example:

Supposing I were Selfridge and, for whatever reason, (maybe sociopathy?) I considered Na'vi life a null-value. The largest nearby Na'vi tribe, and the one I've had the most contact with is sitting on top of the largest vein my people have surveyed. Rememberin I don't particularly value the lives of the locals, I begin a cost/risk/benfit analysis of leveling their home and taking what I want.

I might consider the locals raising a massive army against me, if only as a worst-case scenario. However, if I steal the Omaticaya's home from them, I will certainly make exciting new enemies on a world already teeming with things that want to kill me. That will make base security a greater nightmare, and be costly in terms of both resources and men, who's live are valuable to me, if only because they're so expensive to replace. For that matter, a protracted guerilla war with the displaced Omaticaya will be absurdly costly.

I will most likely end any chance I'd have of negotiating with any of the Na'vi for anything. Ever. Destroying the Omaticaya for reasons only dimly understood by the natives makes me an unpredictable invader, and I really want the Na'vi to think of me as a an eccentric new tribe of pink midgets. It will ease any possible future negotiations, and make me better able to play the Na'vi against each other in the event of future hostilities. Divide and Conquer, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. As previously mentioned, the worst-case scenario here is that all the Na'vi decide to unite in the face of a common threat, me.

Then there's the negative PR. Selfridge brushes this off in the film, but I would know that a slight drop in profits is superior to footage of my men gunning down dozens of lovable blue aliens, and I will not be able to suppress that. For that matter, my own people could revolt, if they caught me doing anything blatantly illegal or unethical. The easiest answer for my superiors if such footage got out would be to hang me up to dry, so it's definitly not in my personal best interests to be seen as the aggressor by anyone.

Finally, this whole thing takes time. Three months for my bulldozers to clear a road to Home Tree, and by the time they get there the jungle will already be starting to overgrow it, to say nothing of clearing away the debris of Home Tree. How many tons of wood do you think that is? And this whole time, what's going on with my mine? Am I scouting for new resources because it will dry up soon, or is production actually being held up until I can start digging at the sight of the new mine? Either way, I would likely be better served by utilizing a closer vein, even if it isn't as rich. Really, unless every other source of unobtanium nearby is extremely low-grade or inaccessible, I have very little incentive to attack the Omaticaya.

So, even without factoring in the morality of killing the Na'vi, I arrive at the conclusion that my short-term goals may have to take a small hit for the long-term, and that's exactly how I'll phrase it in the letters home. I intend to be king of this particular hill for a long time, so there's no point in making enemies until something really important is on the line. This how you do enlightened self-interest.

And if I were to destroy them? While Sully is doing his thing, I'd find a tribe with a grudge and other them cool weapons. Or if I couldn't find one, offer a tribe some incentives to make a grudge. It will be tougher conducting shadow diplomacy without Grace and the other Avatars, but I'll get by. Grace has published a book on the Na'vi language, so I'm sure I can teach some of my people to shout "don't shoot! friend!" and for anything less urgent they should have time to look it up. Three months later the Omaticaya are wiped out by the Ikran Peoples of the far east, clean hands and innocent looks all around.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm going to concede on Tsu'tey's tactics just to keep things moving and because I can't think of any argument that won't have me repeating myself, other than I still feel it was contrived that only he got onboard.

Connor, would you trust a couple of Stone Age warriors who'd never seen one of the things until yesterday with one of your very small number of hand grenades? Or would you want to use them yourself?

Jake quite reasonably trusted himself to use the grenades much more than he trusted anyone else. The best he could have done would be to have a squad of native wingmen backing him up, who would help him clear the surface of the shuttle using their bows and spears while he demolished the engines with the grenades. And I'm not sure how much that would help him, since he already had a machine gun.

He trusted at least some of them with the radios and they neither tried to eat them or cast them away for their "evil spirits." I can also recall at the end when they kick the RDA off the planet, they had at least one Na'Vi using a machine gun.

Really, the Na'Vi despite living simply did not seem all that stupid, ignorant or supersitious, at least when it came to the human's technology. They were at least used to it, even if they didn't grasp it wholly.

Or failing that, use the Na'vi (and the other Avatar) who AREN'T completely ignorant of the technology. While he couldn't fly I am sure they could have assigned him a pilot, or something. But even then two (or three) grenadiers is better than one.

Ah... you do realize you're proposing now that Trudy kamikaze herself into the gunship purely to suppress the gun pits? That's a pretty low-margin attack plan.

Erm no. I must not have made myself clear. I meant Sully and his flying dragon thingy grab a gunship and send it flying. Didn't he do that in the movie at least once? I don't think is mount was MASSIVELY larger, or heavier than the gunship, but he was still chucking them around with only moderate effort.

Though now that you mention Trudy and the gun pits, she could have probably could have swept the gunship's topside with her own weapons.

[Simon_Jester]

He trusted at least some of them with the radios and they neither tried to eat them or cast them away for their "evil spirits." I can also recall at the end when they kick the RDA off the planet, they had at least one Na'Vi using a machine gun.

Really, the Na'Vi despite living simply did not seem all that stupid, ignorant or supersitious, at least when it came to the human's technology. They were at least used to it, even if they didn't grasp it wholly.

Yeah, but grenades are pretty easy to fuck up with- consider that soldiers normally receive special training with them.

With a radio, about the worst you can do is mess it up to the point where it's useless. With a grenade, you can kill yourself and your comrades. Not good.

Erm no. I must not have made myself clear. I meant Sully and his flying dragon thingy grab a gunship and send it flying. Didn't he do that in the movie at least once? I don't think is mount was MASSIVELY larger, or heavier than the gunship, but he was still chucking them around with only moderate effort.

Sending them flying does not equal being able to send them flying in predictable, easily controlled directions, though.

Though now that you mention Trudy and the gun pits, she could have probably could have swept the gunship's topside with her own weapons.

Possibly. Then again, maybe she did, or tried to strafe them, and they just chucked the bodies out and served the guns. Soldiers do that.

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah, but grenades are pretty easy to fuck up with- consider that soldiers normally receive special training with them.

With a radio, about the worst you can do is mess it up to the point where it's useless. With a grenade, you can kill yourself and your comrades. Not good.

Granted, but considering that the RDA troops intend to blow up the Magical Spirit Tree, I'd say that (for the Na'Vi) the situation was serious enough to warrant taking such a risk (if it IS much of a risk that is.) Even if they die sticking the grenade in the vent they still pull off the objective. And its not like they're in any LESS danger blown up by a grenade than they are getting shot now, is it?

Also: I dont remember - how many grenades (and tries) did it take Sully to pull that off?

Sending them flying does not equal being able to send them flying in predictable, easily controlled directions, though.

I don't remember all the gunships flying far away from the shuttle though. They were supposed to be guarding it, after all.
And even if he misses, he can try again, since its not like the gunships were few in number

[NecronLord]

I'm going to concede on Tsu'tey's tactics just to keep things moving and because I can't think of any argument that won't have me repeating myself, other than I still feel it was contrived that only he got onboard.

He wasn't the only one. We see two more try it. They just don't do nearly as well.

[eyl]

I'm going to concede on Tsu'tey's tactics just to keep things moving and because I can't think of any argument that won't have me repeating myself, other than I still feel it was contrived that only he got onboard.

Connor, would you trust a couple of Stone Age warriors who'd never seen one of the things until yesterday with one of your very small number of hand grenades? Or would you want to use them yourself?

Jake quite reasonably trusted himself to use the grenades much more than he trusted anyone else. The best he could have done would be to have a squad of native wingmen backing him up, who would help him clear the surface of the shuttle using their bows and spears while he demolished the engines with the grenades. And I'm not sure how much that would help him, since he already had a machine gun.

He trusted at least some of them with the radios and they neither tried to eat them or cast them away for their "evil spirits." I can also recall at the end when they kick the RDA off the planet, they had at least one Na'Vi using a machine gun.

Really, the Na'Vi despite living simply did not seem all that stupid, ignorant or supersitious, at least when it came to the human's technology. They were at least used to it, even if they didn't grasp it wholly.

Or failing that, use the Na'vi (and the other Avatar) who AREN'T completely ignorant of the technology. While he couldn't fly I am sure they could have assigned him a pilot, or something. But even then two (or three) grenadiers is better than one.

It's not really a problem of superstition or ingorance, but rather of training. Jake probably had only a handful of grenades, he couldn't spare any for practise. And I imagine hitting something with a grenade when both of you are flying around is difficult enough even if you do have experience with them, so it makes sense he put all of the grenades with the only one who had any proficency in their use - i.e., himself.

I always assumed the Navi with a machine gun we see in the end was an Avatars of one of the scientists who decided to stay; even if it was a Na'Vi, training someone to use a machine gun, especially at a basic level, doesn't involve the same expenditure as grenades (you just spend a few rounds, not the entire weapon) and besides, presumably they controlled the abse armory by that point.

[hongi]

I do believe that, once a more primitive society has successfully adapted what was called the First World Western Way, they will be better off than before. But that does not translate into a moral imperative of forcing it onto everyone for its own sake.

Better off how?

[Connor MacLeod]

It's not really a problem of superstition or ingorance, but rather of training. Jake probably had only a handful of grenades, he couldn't spare any for practise. And I imagine hitting something with a grenade when both of you are flying around is difficult enough even if you do have experience with them, so it makes sense he put all of the grenades with the only one who had any proficency in their use - i.e., himself.

I always assumed the Navi with a machine gun we see in the end was an Avatars of one of the scientists who decided to stay; even if it was a Na'Vi, training someone to use a machine gun, especially at a basic level, doesn't involve the same expenditure as grenades (you just spend a few rounds, not the entire weapon) and besides, presumably they controlled the abse armory by that point.

I'm a bit lost on this. WHY is the training neccesarily vital to using the grenades in the first place, and what about grenades makes it inherently more difficult than machine guns to train in? Since I am not in the military I could be missing something, but I'd like to know what it is if that is the case.

[NecronLord]

I'm a bit lost on this. WHY is the training neccesarily vital to using the grenades in the first place, and what about grenades makes it inherently more difficult than machine guns to train in? Since I am not in the military I could be missing something, but I'd like to know what it is if that is the case.

This is why. But imagine everyone within thirty feet being killed.

Grenades are really dangerous, and knowing when not to throw them (to avoid killing yourself) is part of the training as much as the physical act of throwing them.

They probably are more dangerous than machine guns, especially if you only have live fire grenades to train in, rather than practice ones (like the above) or rocks (which wouldn't teach much about how dangerous they are).

[Connor MacLeod]

This is why. But imagine everyone within thirty feet being killed.

Grenades are really dangerous, and knowing when not to throw them (to avoid killing yourself) is part of the training as much as the physical act of throwing them.

They probably are more dangerous than machine guns, especially if you only have live fire grenades to train in, rather than practice ones (like the above) or rocks (which wouldn't teach much about how dangerous they are).

Okay. So how is "its dangerous" relevant to the big battle at the end? They're all in danger, their tree is in danger, they really don't have alot to lose, do they?

I am not saying there is zero chance of the Na'Vi fucking up, or blowing themselves up using the grenades, but I'm not sure that matters at this point. Sully is taking a HUGE risk keeping all the grenades for himself. What happens if he gets shot? He was recognized as I recall, and even if he wasn't he's the most distincitve target amongst the air attack (and thus a likely target, even if we don't include the fact the Toruk is both larger and demonstrably more dangerous, and thus likely to draw more weapons fire.) If sully dies and he has all the grenades, then they're just as fucked as if he shared the grenades out and the other Na'Vi all amanged to fuck it up AND he gets shot or fails.

What's more, they didn't have surprise forever, so Sully having to make repeated tries only gets harder with each repetition (especially if the RDA figures out what they are doing. And Quaritch may be many things, but he's not an idiot.)

What it comes down to is: I can understand Sully is AFRAID of risking the grenades to others because they might fail, and he might actually feel (given what he's been through) that its up to him. That does NOT make it the most objectively intelligent choice he could have made at the end.

[someone_else]

I killed myself so much fucking times with antitank stuff and grenades in all kinds of computer games that I wholly support the "Only Trained People Use Grenades" side.

I don't have time to address most of that now, but the idea that the RDA can just bribe the government into genocide is laughable. There are limits to what you can get with money.

I must have used the word "nuked" too much. My apologies, I like how it sounds.

You don't need to genocide them. Just "convince" them to relocate to protect a company that is critical to US interests. This will likely be a big battle with a slaughter of blueskins.

And anyway, there are China and Russia, that are far less moral. Still not a genocide, but a more bloody repression.
But frankly I don't know if in the Avatarverse they are still half-decent nations or if there is only the United States Of America And The Rest Of The World.

You will note that when OPEC stopped/slowed oil production in the 70s, the US didn't immediately destroy the arab nations with single, grouped and massed nuclear strikes.

It was more cost-effective to solve it diplomatically. Apart from the fact that using nukes on Earth has some annoying side effects (politically).
You should look at what happened in Iraq. The fucker in charge was a threat for oil-producing countries.
So we got Iraqui war 1 and Iraqi war 2.

They didn't slaughter the population, but annihilated the nation as a whole notheless. That's what matters.

How it will happen and if there will be nukes involved is not relevant (we don't know enough of the setting to wank on these details). Navi are a threat to US interests ---> an expeditionary force will bring "democracy" to them iraq-style.

We all saw that Navi were sucking even against corporate thugs. It won't be totally difficult for a professional army to overcome even the charge of dumb animals that fucked up the RDA.

[Simon_Jester]

I don't remember all the gunships flying far away from the shuttle though. They were supposed to be guarding it, after all.
And even if he misses, he can try again, since its not like the gunships were few in number

It depends on how many bullets he wants to risk his pet dragon soaking up- the gunships and shuttle gunners would shoot back after all. So lingering around the place may not be such a great idea as just dive-bombing, dropping onto the surface, and relying on Jake's skills with the automatic weapon he's carrying to clear the gun pits.

It's not really a problem of superstition or ingorance, but rather of training. Jake probably had only a handful of grenades, he couldn't spare any for practise. And I imagine hitting something with a grenade when both of you are flying around is difficult enough even if you do have experience with them, so it makes sense he put all of the grenades with the only one who had any proficency in their use - i.e., himself.

Well, I think he dropped onto the shuttle surface and dropped the grenades in by hand. And the Na'vi would probably be quite proficient at throwing accurately.

The problem with grenades is the risk of screwing up and blowing up yourself or a comrade, not so much the risk of missing your throw. Though that's significant- depending on how the grenades work (impact timer or clock timer?), you might have to be very careful about when you throw, with only a very narrow window of time in which it'll work right.

If there are only, say, two or four available grenades (as opposed to dozens), arming Na'vi grenadiers is just not a good move, because if one of them screws up the plan probably fails.

Okay. So how is "its dangerous" relevant to the big battle at the end? They're all in danger, their tree is in danger, they really don't have alot to lose, do they?

I am not saying there is zero chance of the Na'Vi fucking up, or blowing themselves up using the grenades, but I'm not sure that matters at this point. Sully is taking a HUGE risk keeping all the grenades for himself. What happens if he gets shot? He was recognized as I recall, and even if he wasn't he's the most distincitve target amongst the air attack (and thus a likely target, even if we don't include the fact the Toruk is both larger and demonstrably more dangerous, and thus likely to draw more weapons fire.) If sully dies and he has all the grenades, then they're just as fucked as if he shared the grenades out and the other Na'Vi all amanged to fuck it up AND he gets shot or fails.

The question is whether there are enough grenades that the plan can work at all if Sully gets killed.

If there are- say, if there are two dozen grenades available, it makes sense to pass a few each out to four or five of the Na'vi, tell them what to do, and hope for the best.

If there are, say, four grenades, or two, then Sully may honestly be better off counting on his superior weapon (rifle versus bow or spear), training (with the grenades) and mount to get those handful of grenades into the target. Rather than taking not enough grenades to succeed by himself, giving not enough grenades to succeed to another Na'vi or two, and then hoping they both live, both get to the shuttle, and both get the grenade toss right.

What it comes down to is: I can understand Sully is AFRAID of risking the grenades to others because they might fail, and he might actually feel (given what he's been through) that its up to him. That does NOT make it the most objectively intelligent choice he could have made at the end.

Point- but tactically, it's an ambiguous question that depends on how much ammo they have. If they had only one grenade and they needed to get that grenade into an engine to succeed, that grenade should go to Sully. If they only have two, and they need to get two hits, those grenades should both go to Sully.

If they have 24 grenades, and they need to get two hits, they should give three or four to Sully, three each to several Na'vi, and use a few for demonstration to show that they are dangerous weapons not to be used lightly.

And so on. Since we don't know how many they had, we can't know who should get how many.

[NecronLord]

How it will happen and if there will be nukes involved is not relevant (we don't know enough of the setting to wank on these details). Navi are a threat to US interests ---> an expeditionary force will bring "democracy" to them iraq-style.

You have yet to prove this. (Hint, you can't, given the material there is to date)

Randomly stating whatever your particular interpretation is no more valid than my interpretation that the RDA would disappear in a media feeding frenzy and its assets confiscated and the contract reallocated under a more controlled regime (possibly with security by a proper military detachment, perhaps under the UN) separate from the profit motive, rather than Earth Governments endorsing a pointless kill-exercise of butthurt paramilitary dickwaving that would result in a massive expenditure of time and fuel in killing everything on the planet that offers a remote threat.

My scenario is as valid as yours; both pretty much fanfic.

Your only argument that is at all objectively open to dispute is the idea that the humans will never again gain a foothold on Pandora unless they commit to all-out genocide. You've not provided a shred of evidence to back that.

[CaptHawkeye]

Was their any evidence that the Na'vi would be totally unwilling to host another human population? They're biggest concern during the early days of RDA presence was that the RDA personnel were environmentally clumsy and clearly didn't understand how to respect the planet's ecosystem. The Na'vi were cool with Grace and other the other scientists though, since they clearly made an effort to understand and respect the planet's lifeforms. They didn't have to be real Na'vi or Na'vified. They just had to, you know, not run over trees and animals with their big fucking bulldozers.

But I hear respectful treatment of native lifeforms and lifestyles is only what hippies and pinko commies do.

[Connor MacLeod]

I'm just going to concede on the grenade bit, as while I haven't changed my mind, I'm not sure I can successfully carry off the argument due to lack of specific evidence and lack of knowledge of the military side of things.

Move along, nothing to see here.

[eyl]

Okay. So how is "its dangerous" relevant to the big battle at the end? They're all in danger, their tree is in danger, they really don't have alot to lose, do they?

I am not saying there is zero chance of the Na'Vi fucking up, or blowing themselves up using the grenades, but I'm not sure that matters at this point. Sully is taking a HUGE risk keeping all the grenades for himself. What happens if he gets shot? He was recognized as I recall, and even if he wasn't he's the most distincitve target amongst the air attack (and thus a likely target, even if we don't include the fact the Toruk is both larger and demonstrably more dangerous, and thus likely to draw more weapons fire.) If sully dies and he has all the grenades, then they're just as fucked as if he shared the grenades out and the other Na'Vi all amanged to fuck it up AND he gets shot or fails.

What's more, they didn't have surprise forever, so Sully having to make repeated tries only gets harder with each repetition (especially if the RDA figures out what they are doing. And Quaritch may be many things, but he's not an idiot.)

What it comes down to is: I can understand Sully is AFRAID of risking the grenades to others because they might fail, and he might actually feel (given what he's been through) that its up to him. That does NOT make it the most objectively intelligent choice he could have made at the end.

The danger isn't really a problem; like you say, they're in a do-or-die situation. However, while a grenade is a fairly simple weapon, it's not one you want to give to someone to use on the first time in combat.

The fuse of a grenade is secured by a pin*, which is in turn secured by a lever and a loop at the end. To use the grenade, you have to twist the loop and then it out - it won't come out if you haven't twisted the loop, and the loop only twists one way. Once the pin is released, it'll fly out unless you're holding the lever down; once the pin is ejected (if you haven't held down the lever or when you let it go) the countdown starts. Pretty simple, right?

Well, not quite. Imagine you're using a grenade for the first time, without any practical practise. You have to twist the loop in and pull it out. Both of those operations require a significant amount of force (the movies you see where the hero pulls the pin with his teeth? Try that in real life and its your teeth which will be coming out, not the pin) - it's deliberately made that way to avoid accidents. If you're not sure how much force is needed (and a first time user will probably be wary of using too much force) you'll waste time because it's not coming out. Let's alsohope you don't get mixed up and try twisting it the wrong way. Then you need to make sure you're holding the lever properly because otherwise the pin may well fly right in your face - it's almost guaranteed to startle you.

Now, all this is assuming a user in a "standard" ground battle. Now imagine you're flying, without much (if any) in the way of harnass, and you have absolutely no cover - so you have to do this fast. Not to mention that if you fumble and drop the grenade before arming it, it's gone, you can't pick it up and try again.

Also, due to the target's high relative motion, you need to time the throw very accurately (unless the grenades they used had impact fuses) - in a ground battle, the grenade will usually stay where it landed until it detonates; here it needs to pretty much detonate on contact or it'll probably explode uselessly in the jungle.

In real life, we solve these problems (except tfor the flying issues, obviously) by training; you'll throw practise grenades before you start with live ones, and you'll do it under close suprevision. I really doubt Sully had any practise grenades, so it comes down to how many grenades they had. If they had sufficient grenades for them to practise a bit (and to be able to afford a large number of failures in the battle) then yes, he should have spread them out. OTOH, if he had only a handful of grenades, he couldn't expend any in training, and "dry firing" practise isn't enough (it might be sufficient for, say, a machine gun, though even then I'd only consider it if there was no other option - a user with no experience can fumble a bit and then get it right. With a grenade, there's less margin for error). So it makese sense for him to keep the grenades, as he's the only one (with the possible exception of Trudy, who wasn't in a position to use them) with any experience using them.

*The image is of a stun grenade, but a frag grenade is similiar except rounder. My description is based on the IDF-issue grenades I trained with, but as it's a pretty basic weapon I assume other grenades work similarly.

EDIT - apologies, I missed your concession

[someone_else]

Your only argument that is at all objectively open to dispute is the idea that the humans will never again gain a foothold on Pandora unless they commit to all-out genocide. You've not provided a shred of evidence to back that.

This is my only argument, you are right. Who will go there is irrelevant. Who will do the work is irrelevant. The RDA's fate is irrelevant.

Do you know where the warriors in the "navi army" came from? They are the able-bodied of their tribes. And since Navi don't seem to discriminate sexes, you have females on the line as well.

This what means? If you go there with an army and fight their own army, in the most fair way possible, you are killing all the adults of loads of villages. After the battle is won, there will be mostly elders and childrens left (plus some adults that escaped).
That will be escorted away or in "reserves" without much choice, where they will become reliant on humans for most things.

This worked the same with Native Americans, although since they were sexist, women weren't trained for fighting so there was still a half-decent chance for their tribe to recover from the casualities. Na'vi don't.

The drawbacks of not having a professional army and having a pityful population desity.

Was their any evidence that the Na'vi would be totally unwilling to host another human population? They're biggest concern during the early days of RDA presence was that the RDA personnel were environmentally clumsy and clearly didn't understand how to respect the planet's ecosystem.

As far as it seems, unobtanium is mined in huge surface mines, that aren't exactly environmentally-friendly due to the simple reason that you have to obliterate huge amounts of forest.

Humans are there only to mine unobtanium. Everything else is secondary and doesn't pay for the trip.
+
Navi don't like the unobtanium mining operations.
=
Conflict.