EPIC FAIL Master Races

[Sidewinder]

Just compiling a list of "Master Races" whose supposed mastery is heavily dependent upon their enemies' extreme stupidity and utterly passive behavior, and who would collapse like the Soviet Union if it fought against a true superpower- the Draka being one famous example. Any other EPIC FAIL Master Races whose mastery is mainly a figment of the imagination of writers acting like internet trolls? Besides the Draka, I can name American WASPs (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants), Chinese (see wuxia novels), Elves, Englishmen, Japanese, the Tau...

[Ritterin Sophia]

Isn't this more suited to Sci-Fi?

[Sidewinder]

Isn't this more suited to Sci-Fi?

Perhaps, but some of the examples are set in fantasy (Elves), contemporary times (Dale Brown's technothrillers), and Ming Dynasty China (wuxia novels).

Also, do vampires count? (Cough! Twilight! Cough!)

[Sarevok]

The Clanners from BT are big offenders in this regard. Their list of mistakes is as long as their legendary Remembrance...

[kaeneth]

I think we'd be better off naming the number of "Master Races" that were not made of EPIC FAIL.

'cause the only Master Race that wasn't total fail to my knowledge is...

Shaa from Dread Empire's Fall (The basically all died out from running out of memory storage and committing suicide [combined with boredom from there being no point to life since they encountered no real obstacles beyond the one they couldn't overcome]).

[Simon_Jester]

Just compiling a list of "Master Races" whose supposed mastery is heavily dependent upon their enemies' extreme stupidity and utterly passive behavior, and who would collapse like the Soviet Union if it fought against a true superpower- the Draka being one famous example. Any other EPIC FAIL Master Races whose mastery is mainly a figment of the imagination of writers acting like internet trolls? Besides the Draka, I can name American WASPs (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants), Chinese (see wuxia novels), Elves, Englishmen, Japanese, the Tau...

Exactly how strict are your standards? I mean, some of the nations on your list historically founded powerful empires and waged conflicts against major powers of their time; in what sense was their success heavily dependent on their enemies' stupidity and passivity?

[Sithking Zero]

How about the "Nobility," from the anime/manga/book series "Familiar of Zero?" For the large part, they seem perfectly content sitting on their thrones and looking down on the peasantry, when any other nation would have risen up and overthrown them by now. In fact, I do believe that several stories have been written to precisely that effect.

[Ahriman238]

Nietzecheans (Andromeda), Saurons (CoDominium), Daggers (Seaquest), Darhel (Posleen War), Augments (Star Trek), Scrags (Honorverse) and many others I'm missing. Sci-fi is full of 'superior' races, supercomputers, and transhumans, and the bulk of them are 'made of fail.' I particularly enjoyed David Weber's Scrags, who prove that no amount of genetically-enhanced abilities can compensate for the arrogance of a 'super-soldier' who knows for a fact that no unenhanced human is a threat to him. If you consistently underestimate your enemies you're just an idiot, also dead, and Scrags have no idea what baseline humans are and aren't capable of, they just know they're 'better.'

[Sidewinder]

Just compiling a list of "Master Races" whose supposed mastery is heavily dependent upon their enemies' extreme stupidity and utterly passive behavior, and who would collapse like the Soviet Union if it fought against a true superpower- the Draka being one famous example. Any other EPIC FAIL Master Races whose mastery is mainly a figment of the imagination of writers acting like internet trolls? Besides the Draka, I can name American WASPs (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants), Chinese (see wuxia novels), Elves, Englishmen, Japanese, the Tau...

Exactly how strict are your standards? I mean, some of the nations on your list historically founded powerful empires and waged conflicts against major powers of their time; in what sense was their success heavily dependent on their enemies' stupidity and passivity?

American WASPs and Englishmen are notable for their sheer arrogance, holier-than-thou attitude, and overconfidence. For example, Tom Clancy's novels assume other nations- EU members and Russia being notable examples- will willingly submit to American leadership, as if nationalistic pride means nothing in the face of American exceptionalism. Chinese wuxia novelists seem to think kung fu will nullify any and all technological advantages a foreign power may have, e.g., steam engines, firearms, artillery... Victorian era novels such as King Solomon's Mines tend to portray non-whites as a "noble savage" in need of uplifting, and forget the British idea of "uplift" tends to piss off the people it's meant to help, as the American Revolution and the Boer Wars demonstrate- notable because the British were so arrogant, they treated North America and South Africa's white settlers with contempt equal to what the Zulus suffered in the Anglo-Zulu War. Japanese anime and manga commit the same damn mistakes the American technothriller writers and Victorian novelists make- worse, they try to forget historical reasons WHY WARS ARE FOUGHT, in an attempt to whitewash Japanese government culpability in WW2, as Gundam SEED and Gundam SEED Destiny demonstrate.

[Sidewinder]

Oh, and Koreans are just as susceptible to technothriller bullshit as the Americans, as the "Korean Tom Clancy" demonstrates.

[Simon_Jester]

So the question is, are we distinguishing between people who are supposedly superhuman and cultures which are merely good at what they do?

I mean, Victorian adventure novels are pretty out there, but they're not as out there as you might think given the exploits of men like Richard Francis Burton. It really was a period when a handful of white adventurers could go places in Africa or Asia, get caught up in grand events, and accomplish all manner of improbable feats of arms.

Also, you're conflating fiction and real life, and applying huge doses of historical hindsight to events in the past, especially with the British.

Nietzecheans (Andromeda), Saurons (CoDominium), Daggers (Seaquest), Darhel (Posleen War), Augments (Star Trek), Scrags (Honorverse) and many others I'm missing. Sci-fi is full of 'superior' races, supercomputers, and transhumans, and the bulk of them are 'made of fail.' I particularly enjoyed David Weber's Scrags, who prove that no amount of genetically-enhanced abilities can compensate for the arrogance of a 'super-soldier' who knows for a fact that no unenhanced human is a threat to him. If you consistently underestimate your enemies you're just an idiot, also dead, and Scrags have no idea what baseline humans are and aren't capable of, they just know they're 'better.'

Notably, though, the guys with the same caliber of genome and real combat training are hell on wheels...

[Kingmaker]

I would point out that a fair number of the superhuman 'master races' mentioned in this thread were created by the author purely to have some allegedly intimidating bad guy for the super-awesome baseline humans to beat up.

Also:

words from Sidewinder

IN THIS THREAD: we learn that fiction writers tend to overestimate and exalt the competence and moral qualities of their group/nation and derogate the competence and moral qualities of their enemies (and to a lesser extent, their allies and neutral parties). I don't really think that is (necessarily) anything more than a sign of cultural bias (perhaps backed up by an optimistic and white-washed interpretation of history).

[aieeegrunt]

Nietzecheans (Andromeda), Saurons (CoDominium), Daggers (Seaquest), Darhel (Posleen War), Augments (Star Trek), Scrags (Honorverse) and many others I'm missing. Sci-fi is full of 'superior' races, supercomputers, and transhumans, and the bulk of them are 'made of fail.' I particularly enjoyed David Weber's Scrags, who prove that no amount of genetically-enhanced abilities can compensate for the arrogance of a 'super-soldier' who knows for a fact that no unenhanced human is a threat to him. If you consistently underestimate your enemies you're just an idiot, also dead, and Scrags have no idea what baseline humans are and aren't capable of, they just know they're 'better.'

I don't think the Saurons from CoDominium qualify for the OP, as they are a self styled "Master Race" that got themselves almost completely exterminated due to their own "extreme stupidity and utterly passive behavior", and who got utterly destroyed when they fought "a true superpower" (the CoDo Empire).

Their last remnant population, isolated on some backwater planet then proceeded to make all the same mistakes and almost got exterminated again despite having both a technological and genetically awesomated advantage over the indigenous population; who had to make do with black powder era tech.

[Imperial Overlord]

I don't think the Saurons from CoDominium qualify for the OP, as they are a self styled "Master Race" that got themselves almost completely exterminated due to their own "extreme stupidity and utterly passive behavior", and who got utterly destroyed when they fought "a true superpower" (the CoDo Empire).

That's not at all accurate. The Sauron's made a bid for independence from the CoDominiom and failed, but they inflicted fatal damage on the CoDominion in the process. Starting a violent insurrection is a lot of things, but passive isn't one of them.

Their last remnant population, isolated on some backwater planet then proceeded to make all the same mistakes and almost got exterminated again despite having both a technological and genetically awesomated advantage over the indigenous population; who had to make do with black powder era tech.

The survivors on Haven made an entirely different mistakes. The descendents of the Saurons refugees deliberately restricted local technological development, relying on their technological and genetic superiority to keep them in a dominant position while they conquered the planet. This failed because some of the locals were redeveloping technology and actively incorporating Sauron genes into their own whenever possible. This ended up putting them in bad spot with the rest of the population when a huge war was unleashed against them, but the net result of that was to shake up the Sauron political hierarchy and bring to power leaders who wouldn't make those mistakes.

So the Saurons don't count. Their secession attempt nearly succeeded and wasn't at all passive. Their holdings on the planet Haven did degenerate into an entrenched regime focused on maintaining status quo but that was replaced by a much more aggressive and capable government.

[Shroom Man 777]

This thread is loopy. Sidewinder's examples are terrible and basically you can basically throw anything you don't like into this thread, because his category is just "unrealistic jingoistic nationalistic wankery".

I guess I can contribute an example, like that novel where united Korea send their commando teams to invade the USA.

Or maybe I can cite the trope in real life (LOL) like how a modern day superpower is now waging unending wars in far away countries, faced with terrible resistances, and eventually losing political will and retreating with their tails tucked between their legs after losing thousands of their own people and basically pissing away all their remaining international standing with the rest of the world. In which a supposed real life wank nation gets humbled by totally tiny events, like some bankers being idiots and causing the superpower's people to end up poor and homeless? lol

Anyway, almost anything can be construed to fit Sidewinder's category. I mean, he basically cited nationalistic pulp fiction from... all nations from all time periods! Man. Hell, you could fit the Hebrews and Israelites in his category. The Bible isn't really that different from wuxia novels or British adventure stories, and has just as many flaws, if not more.

[Sithking Zero]

A nice subversion of a master race would definitely be "The Race," from Turtledove's Worldwar series. I mean, they were the textbook example of the "Master Race," thing described in the first post before they met the humans, but once they did, human adaptability and resourcefulness simply outmaneuvered and outpaced a great deal of The Race's skills and technology.

[mr friendly guy]

Chinese wuxia novelists seem to think kung fu will nullify any and all technological advantages a foreign power may have, e.g., steam engines, firearms, artillery.

Which Wuxia novels? I want to read a translation or see a television adaptation. Because if we go from the two most popular authors I don't recall anything close to what you suggests. For example

a) Gu Long – his novels usually take the form of a mystery to be solved, and the threats are evil organisations to the heroes or assassins rather than a foreign power invading China.

b) Jin Yong – arguably the most popular author.

I have seen various adaptations and read summaries of them, and the main novels where China actually is threaten by a foreign power occurred in these ones.

天龙八部 “Demi gods and semi devils” - the heroes manage to hold the Khitan emperor hostage and make him sign a peace deal with China. However the Khitans did not have technological advantage, and IIRC the battle occurred at a narrow ridge where the Khitans mastery of horse riding could not come into play. Granted in television adaptations the heroes were actually fast enough to dodge arrows at close range so ok.

倚天屠龙记 “heaven sword and dragon sabre” - deals with the Chinese over throw of the Yuan dynasty. My impression is the actual fighting between the Chinese and Mongol forces happened mainly “off screen” so to speak, and pretty much as history recorded. So less a case of the hero using his super dooper martial arts to beat the foreign power.

神雕侠侣 “Return of the condor heroes” - in the 2006 adaptation Yang Guo could reflect Mongol cannons. However from my understanding in the novel he didn't do this. And his martial arts was not enough to defeat swathes of the Mongol army, so he had to kill Mongke Khan before the latter reached the safety of the Mongol lines, which he did by throwing a stone so hard it hit the Khan from the back and came out the front. This reflects the historic battle of Xing Yang which the Chinese won.

碧血剑 “Sword stained with royal blood” - Yuan Chengzhi fails to kill the Manchu emperor. The manchus defeat the weaken Chinese forces riveted by civil war thus ending the Ming Dynasty and starting the Qing. Again I don't see how magical kung fu allowed them to defeat the advantages the foreign invaders had, given they kind of lost.

鹿鼎记 “Duke of Mount Deer” - The Qing Russian border conflict ending with a Qing victory. I am pretty sure the battle was won with both sides deploying cannons, and not because the protagonist had super good kung fu (in fact, he didn't since the protagonist was deliberately written as the antithesis of the traditional wuxia hero).

So I would be interested in getting a hold of the Wuxia writings you describe, where they actually are superior to firearms.

[Ahriman238]

So the Saurons don't count. Their secession attempt nearly succeeded and wasn't at all passive. Their holdings on the planet Haven did degenerate into an entrenched regime focused on maintaining status quo but that was replaced by a much more aggressive and capable government.

Fair enough.

Nietzecheans (Andromeda), Saurons (Codominium), Daggers (Seaquest), Darhel (Posleen War), Augments (Star Trek), Scrags (Honorverse).

How about the angels/God from the Salvation War? Barring Michael, obviously.

[Eternal_Freedom]

If you're looking at "epic fail master races" from the Salvation War I'd contend the Demons are more of one than the Angels. They get totally curbstomped, whereas the Angels actually inflict some hefty losses and eventually fall due to a coup detat rather than an invasion.

[Ahriman238]

If you're looking at "epic fail master races" from the Salvation War I'd contend the Demons are more of one than the Angels. They get totally curbstomped, whereas the Angels actually inflict some hefty losses and eventually fall due to a coup detat rather than an invasion.

Maybe. Both were pretty arrogant, but I thought the Angels were much more so. I'm not arguing that they depended on their victims being primitive or superstitious, it's just that the angels strike me more as the type to proclaim themselves a superior race. As for the coup, Michael planned and organized it because he knew that someday they'd get curbstomped by the humans.

[Kingmaker]

I think by the criteria listed in the OP, humans would be the epic fail master race of TSW. Despite being heavily outnumbered by a civilization orders of magnitude older, they are victorious, largely because of authorial fiat rendering their foes technologically incompetent despite having far longer to progress scientifically. Okay, not entirely fair: the humans aren't incompetent or implausibly effective, just woefully undermatched, unlike the Draka.

I think the idea of the OP is Mediocre Master Races that are regarded as such by the narrative/story itself. The demons may be arrogant, but its pretty clear in narrative that any sense of superiority is wholly unmerited.

[Lord of the Abyss]

I think the idea of the OP is Mediocre Master Races that are regarded as such by the narrative/story itself.

For that, I'd nominate the Cetagandan haut from the Vorkosigan series. They appear to be moderately enhanced; physically superior and mentally high end human (note that Miles outwits them repeatedly). But their arrogance is way out of proportion to their relatively minor advantages, they repeatedly lose wars against their allegedly inferior opponents, and their culture is a combination of tyranny and backstabbing that seriously weakens them.

[Sidewinder]

This thread is loopy. Sidewinder's examples are terrible and basically you can basically throw anything you don't like into this thread, because his category is just "unrealistic jingoistic nationalistic wankery".

It's not just "unrealistic jingoistic nationalistic wankery," it's downright being divorced from reality, and assuming the world exists only for you.

For American examples, Stephen Coonts assumes the US will benefit from the collapse of China's economy, as depicted in his 2000 novel Hong Kong. He forgets that, as China exports 20.03% of its products to the US, and imports 7.66% of American products, the two nations are joined at the hip (the wallet), and the US will suffer greatly if this happens- to say nothing of a refugee crisis that'll see tens or hundreds of millions of Chinese are seeking asylum, which will utterly trivialize America's current problem with illegal immigrants.

Chinese wuxia novelists seem to think kung fu will nullify any and all technological advantages a foreign power may have, e.g., steam engines, firearms, artillery.

Which Wuxia novels? I want to read a translation or see a television adaptation. Because if we go from the two most popular authors I don't recall anything close to what you suggests.

<snip>

So I would be interested in getting a hold of the Wuxia writings you describe, where they actually are superior to firearms.

Sorry, I'm letting Tsui Hark's adaptations cloud my perception of Jin Yong's original novels. This is seen in The East is Red, where martial arts learned in the Chrysanthemum Scroll, allow East the Invincible to catch cannonballs in midair.

[lord Martiya]

I'd have two additions to the list.
1)Zentradi (from Macross): as far I saw, they greatly depends on superior firepower and numbers (they're lucky they have too much of them), and their inability to decently repair their ships leaves them at a fraction of their true power. Also, the one Zentradi that showed good tactics and adaptability of the sames is Kamjin, who is noted to be insane (just watch his first five minutes on the show).
2)Minbari Warrior Caste (from Babylon 5): if compared to the average Zentradi commander they looks Ritchie compared to Rommel. Just look at the destruction of the Black Star: any half-decent commander could have avoided that by just sending a couple scouts or destroying the cruiser with fighters. And if the Minbari thoughts about that battle, the one on the Black Star was one of their best.

[NecronLord]

This thread is incoherent. Elves? Which elves? There's a whole variety of elves.

If you mean the most famous fantasy book's elves, Tolkien's, then you'd be wrong. They constantly justify their claims (which are much exaggerated in many people's minds) of superiority by actually being more effective in battle, if rare in numbers. The idea of an elf lord turning up is terrifying to orcs in a goddamn fortress in Mordor.

Perhaps you mean D&D? While it has elves that suck, it also has, say, the Cormanthyr Crusade, who turn up, kick ass, and restart one of their old kingdoms.

The Tau, from warhammer? They win, they keep on winning, and slowly but steadily are expanding, bringing their way of life to others. That is a fact, while there are things that could squash them easily, they are superior soldier-for-soldier to many opponents, and their way of war is generally more effective, their way of life more prosperous, and their culture more harmonious (yes, I like the grimdark Tau trope too, but frankly, internment and sterilisation in a work camp is still nice compared to all other factions including the Craftworld Eldar) than its rivals. How is that not superior?

2)Minbari Warrior Caste (from Babylon 5): if compared to the average Zentradi commander they looks Ritchie compared to Rommel. Just look at the destruction of the Black Star: any half-decent commander could have avoided that by just sending a couple scouts or destroying the cruiser with fighters. And if the Minbari thoughts about that battle, the one on the Black Star was one of their best.

What, the fuck, are you talking about?

It was a remote detonated nuclear mine that they didn't see being planted. You are demanding they have some kind of way of knowing it's there.

What are the criteria we apply here? Cunning behaviour? The Minbari don't do a great deal of that. But their technology is far superior, to the point that that was the only non-suicidal victory in the war, and the mere promise of access to some Minbari technology later gets Earth to join the Interstellar Alliance. No one dares attack them, and short of god races, their technology is supreme. They have never lost a war, and are a dominant force in galactic politics, remaining so even in a million years time, ascending to First One status themselves. They live longer, are stronger, more resilient, have a less oppressive culture (compare psicorps with Mimbari teeps) and are a preeminent power.

How does this suck?