Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

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Who has the cooler ships?

The Empire
47
68%
The Alliance
22
32%
 
Total votes: 69

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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

Guerilla Warfare - Episodes 49 and 50

Two hours after Yang's return to Heinessen on 13 February 799, Yang was promoted to Fleet Admiral - the youngest Fleet Admiral in the history of the Alliance.

Meeting with Chairman Islands, Yang noted there would be only one way to defeat the Imperial invasion - Reinhard von Lohengramm would have to be killed in battle.

With Reinhard not yet Kaiser, and with no male heirs, his loyal retainers would not be able to continue a Lohengramm dynasty in his name. His subordinates would then fall apart, and likely return to the Empire to fight amongst themselves and find a successor. In that time, the Alliance could replenish its depleted forces.

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Lohengramm and his subordinates

The plan

Yang therefore decided that he would attack Lohengramm's subordinates one by one, until Lohengramm, as was his nature, would take the field to defeat Yang personally.

However, Yang had to win against those subordinates as easily as possible to conserve his strength. He decided to avoid Reinhard's two best men - Mittermeyer and Reuenthal, altogether.

Imperial situation

Leaving Iserlohn Fortress under Admiral Lutz, the fleets of High Admiral Reuenthal and Admiral Lennenkampt met up with the main Imperial force at Planet Urvashi, where the main base for Imperial forces in Alliance territory was being built.

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Brunhild and Planet Urvashi

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Tristan and Galga Farmr arrive

With the fleets so combined, the Imperial Fleet in Alliance territory totalled 180,000 ships and 20,000,000 soldiers.

With such a massive force, the length of Imperial supply lines back to Imperial space had become an issue. Further, even though the main Alliance fleet had been eliminated, the Yang Fleet had complete freedom of movement.

Admiral Bittenfeld, as was his way, did not see the point in sitting around Urvashi, and advocated an immediate attack on the capital.

High Admiral Mittermeyer advocated caution, and noted taking the capital would not ensure the defeat of the Alliance. Instead, the former Alliance territory could be rife with rebellions. He advocated a campaign of attacking the areas surrounding the capital to stop the flow of Alliance supplies, and force the Alliance into a treaty.

It was at this time that Reinhard fell ill with a fever. His doctor advised nothing was particularly wrong with him - it seemed to be the result of overwork. Not wishing to make decisions whilst his body was weak (and his reasoning possibly impaired) Reinhard left the operational decisions for later, and took some rest as recommended.

Yang sets out

At the end of February 799, Yang set out on his mission.

In addition to the Yang Fleet itself, Vice Admirals Mouton and Carlsen (formerly of the 14th and 15th Fleets, respectively) launched with Yang and their remaining forces.

High Admiral Merkatz (who had been on Heinessen in his meaningless position as part of the Imperial government-in-exile) also decided to accompany Yang on the flagship Hyperion, with Schneider at his side, as always, to assist in the defeat of Duke Lohengramm, on behalf of the young Kaiser.

In all, Yang's forces numbered some 17,000 ships.

Imperial Supply lines

Lohengramm tasked Rear Admiral Sombart with guarding the supplies, ordering him to maintain communications with the main force and call for help if he detected any danger. Though Mittermeyer offered to go in his stead, Reinhard left the task with Sombart, in part due to Sombart's confident promise that he would place his life in Reinhard's hands should he fail, as an example to the entire fleet.

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Sombart is bored

Nevertheless, Sombart got lax in the unexciting task of guarding the supply ships, and was ambushed by the entire Yang Fleet. By the time Vice Admiral Turneisen arrived to investigate Sombart's failure to report, the supply ships had been destroyed, only 30 ships of Sombart's fleet remained, and Yang was long gone.

Back on the Brunhild, Sombart, who survived the battle, was severely rebuked by Reinhard. He was taken away by Reinhard's personal guard. It is unknown whether Reinhard held him to his promise.

Reinhard decided the Yang Fleet would have to be hunted down and eliminated.

Steinmetz Fleet vs Yang Fleet

It was known that the Yang Fleet did not return to Heinessen. Admiral Steinmetz was called up to hunt Yang down - once he was found, they could move with all their forces to destroy him.

Yang tasked Vice Admiral Fischer to lead Steinmetz to where the rest of the Yang Fleet had set up its formation - with its rear to a black hole. Vice Admiral Attenborough would have Steinmetz find them after the formation was ready.

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Steinmetz' flagship Forkel hunting

On 1 March 799, Steinmetz found the enemy between Ritarl and Triplar, way off the regular routes.

The black hole's presence was detected - it was approximately 9km wide, with a danger zone extending for 960 million kilometers. Steinmetz' staff determined they should get no closer than 1 billion kilometres - which was also the exact distance the Yang Fleet was maintaining from it.

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The Yang Fleet, with the black hole at its back

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Steinmetz approaches

Steinmetz decided on a half-encirclement strategy, figuring that Yang had positioned himself with his back to the proverbial 'wall' to prevent being encircled, and to produce a psychological effect on his men that there was 'nowhere to run'.

Duke Lohengramm received Steinmetz' report that contact was made, and sent Admiral Lennenkampt to assist.

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Yang opens fire

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Forkel in battle

Steinmetz advanced slowly, spreading his fleet out to half-encircle Yang as planned.

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Yang, Lieutenent Commander Greenhill, and Mintz

His line spread thin, Yang concentrated his formation and broke through Steinmetz's centre at high speed, then executed a 180 degree turn - trapping Steinmetz.

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Triglav attacks

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A Spartanian strafes an Imperial battleship's ventral hull

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The Yang Fleet, red, breaks through and encircles Steinmetz, blue

With the black hole now at his back, Steinmetz realised that Yang's initial position hadn't been a defensive ploy at all - Yang had counted on Steinmetz to attempt a half-encirclement from the beginning - thereby making his centre vulernable to a breakthrough.

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One of Steinmetz' battleships is destroyed as it tries to turn

Ordering his fleet to turn 180 degrees, Steinmetz attempted to turn the tables on Yang, concentrating his fleet formation to penetrate Yang's centre.

Yang was ready - the moment Steinmetz' fleet finished concentrating its formation for a breakthrough, all ships were ordered to execute a pinpoint artillery attack, cutting a swathe through Steinmetz' fleet.

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Steinmetz had no choice but to spread his fleet formation out again. At this stage, Yang detected an additional enemy fleet was detected approaching from behind, three hours away.

Yang noted they therefore had two hours to defeat Steinmetz, and another hour to run away from the Imperial reinforcements. He ordered the fleet forward, to push Steinmetz into the black hole.

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A battleship is sucked into the black hole

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The Forkel struggles to hold position

With his ships tumbling into the black hole, Steinmetz decided to take a big risk - setting his fleet on a hyperbolic course along the edge of the black hole's danger zone, to slingshot out of danger.

Though they would be defenceless against Yang whilst doing so, Steinmetz figured it would be better to sustain heavy damage and save the fleet rather than face certain annihilation.

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Steinmetz' fleet begins moving, under heavy fire

With Steinmetz' fleet devastated by flanking fire whilst escaping, Lennenkampt's fleet was 750,000km away. The Hyperion identified the flagship as Lennenkampt's Galga Farmr.

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The Galga Farmr approaches

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"Oh, its Mr Lennen's ship."

Remembering what had happened to Lennenkampt back at Iserlohn Fortress, Yang gave orders for the fleet to fire three salvos before Lennenkampt got in range, and then slowly retreat to the Rainharl system.

Lennenkampt pursued the retreating fleet at full speed - but as Yang came into range, he feared a trap and ordered a retreat himself. As Lennenkampt pulled back, Yang turned around and attacked again.

Lennenkampt's forces were thrown into chaos - by the time they had recovered at 1300 hours on 2 March 799, the Yang Fleet had disappeared.

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Lennenkampt is annoyed

Reinhard mildly rebuked Lennenkampt and Steinmetz, stating that Yang was above their level, but otherwise did not punish them. They did not know that Hildegard von Mariendorf had talked him out of harsher measures - he had originally planned to send Lennenkampt to replace Lutz at Iserlohn Fortress (Steinmetz could not go as well, as it would reduce their fleet by too much).

Mariendorf advised against such a course of action for three reasons:- first, his subordinates would feel it unfair if he punished Lennenkampt, and not Steinmetz. Second, Rear Admiral Sombart had already been punished, and anymore could intimidate his own men. Finally, sending Lennenkampt to Iserlohn could send the message that being the commander of Iserlohn Fortress was a position to be taken likely.

Wahlen Fleet vs Yang Fleet

With the Imperial supply situation in disarray after Sombart's failure, Admiral Wahlen - using the information obtained from Phezzan, proposed stealing the Alliance's own supplies from the 84 supply bases scattered around its territory. Lohengramm agreed.

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Wahlen sets out ...

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Under the watchful eye of a Spartanian scout

At 1600 hours on 24 March 799, Wahlen's Fleet detected enemy supply ships in front of them, with supply containers in front of them - making them incapable of responding to a frontal assault. Wahlen took the disorganization as an indication that an attack was not expected, and moved in to steal the supplies, moving forward to surround them.

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Wahlen's fleet moves in

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Attenborough's battleships amongst the contianers

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Triglav responds

Vice Admiral Attenborough feigned retreat on Wahlen's approach - Wahlen was cautious, and stuck to his objective of stealing the supplies, declining to pursue, and ordering that the supply contianers be checked.

Attenborough advanced again. To protect the supplies, Wahlen ordred the Salamander herself to proceed to the rear of the fleet to protect the supplies.

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Salamander defends the containers

Once more, Attenborough retreated. Satisifed, Wahlen ordered his ships to pull back. As his ships moved through the containers, weapons fire erupted from them. The fire was light, causing no apparent damage. Wahlen assumed that the containers had soldiers onboard, and the entire situation was a setup to take advantage of the Imperial need for supplies.

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Fire erupts from the containers

Wahlen then ordered the destruction of the containers. Unfortunately, they were all filled with helium. A runaway explosion resulted, sending his fleet into disarray.

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Salamander escapes the fireball

Fleet Admiral Yang, watching in the distance, ordered an attack on any remaining ships. Wahlen retreated at full speed, and Yang did not give chase.

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Hyperion looks on as Wahlen makes good his escape

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Wahlen, dejected

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"Duke Lohengramm's anger has probably reached the boiling point by now."

Aftermath

As Yang guessed, Duke Lohengramm was indeed incensed. But Wahlen had discovered one important thing - the Yang Fleet did not have a regular supply base, but changed where they got their supplies after every battle, moving as they fought.

Reinhard's admirals discussed the situation, dismayed. They were short on time, and Yang could use all of Alliance space as his base, attacking wherever and whenever he wished. Of the various proposals, High Admiral Reuenthal mused that Yang would have to be drawn out, so he couldbe trapped and destroyed. But the question was with what?

Duke Lohengramm was about to give them their answer.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Nephtys »

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Oh When will humanity learn not to fill it's large circular flying things with deadly, deadly helium?! Enjoy your flaming deathtrap!
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

One of the wackier moments of LOGH, its true (along with space energy currents!). :)

I wonder if anyone could help me - the above is the first entry I've done on my new PC, and MPC has suddenly decided not to capture subtitles when I make a screen capture anymore.

When I first started out, I didn't know how to turn subtitles off, that's why a lot of the earlier entries have them everywhere - then I decided to turn them on and off as appropriate (i.e. I try to keep them off when looking at ships). But now it doesn't matter whether I have them on or off, MPC refuses to capture them!
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Darksider »

LOGH's space physics are certainly....... odd.

I remember watching Spoiler
the final battle between the alliance and the empire, and the solar flare created some kind of "wind" that slammed imperial ships into the asteroids,
and I was yelling SOLAR FLARES DO NOT WORK THAT WAY.

To say nothing of how alliance and imperial space can apparently be traversed freely, but the only way between them is two corridors narrow enough to be defended by a single fortress, but at least you could chalk that up to a quirk of whatever FTL drives they use.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Tanasinn »

The corridor thing is a FTL quirk. Sometimes certain battlefields themselves restrict movement in an unspecified manner. Really, the sci-fi is just a backdrop for the politicking.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Uraniun235 »

The solar flare thing is really just an old space opera metaphor for ocean weather/storms in space. Same with the 'energy currents'.

The helium ignition isn't much wackier than the battle at Legnica where a fusion bomb is sufficient to spark a fusion chain reaction in the atmosphere of a gas giant.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

The corridor thing is a FTL quirk.
Actually, it is indeed a literal barrier:-
Spoiler
In the Battle of the Corridor (more than once, IIRC) you see Imperial ships hit the 'walls' of the Corridor - they're invisible until you hit them. The ships are destroyed. They're marked by what look like navigation buoys. Screenshots will be posted when the time comes.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by MaiazuruX »

In this anime, the aristocracy was favoured too much, democracy too little. I would've preferred to see the result of a fight between equal sides. There were too many Deus Ex Machinas - the end of the Battle of Vermillion being the worst one by far - in Reinhard's favour for me to think that the author even wanted ambiguous impressions. Reinhard was clearly going to win from Episode 1, and it was clearly shown that a young man of 20 was going to outsmart 160 years of warriors on both sides.

Its a good anime, an excellent anime in some respects. But I will say I take the social aspect of it with a big grain of salt. :D
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Simon_Jester »

Personally, I think Reinhard von Musel draws heavily from Alexander the Great- the boy conqueror, different in some important respects but similar in others.

And with that historical example in mind, it becomes easier to see how he could conquer so much so easily. Another aspect is that the Empire seems to have started the period with the strategic upper hand- they lack the strength to destroy the Alliance outright, obviously, but the Alliance has been on the strategic defensive practically the whole time since the war began.

Which, yes, sold democratic and meritocratic government rather short.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Tanasinn »

One of the central messages in Legend of Galactic Heroes has to do with the clash between corrupt democracy and a dynamic tyrant and the temptation for a descent into fascism that a great leader can represent. It's something the characters complain about regularly. Considering that this frustration/conflict was so oft-visited, I wasn't surprised to see Reinhard come out on top.

That said, the series doesn't imply authoritarian/aristocratic rule is superior. Reinhard is depicted as indispensible to his nation's success, and it's implied or outright stated throughout the series that without him, what he's built will eventually fall in on itself. The series even takes it to Reinhard at times - Oberstein gets in a particularly stinging criticism of his obsession with victory through battle late in the series and how it's a disgusting waste of human life. Certainly the series isn't pushing aristocratic, authoritarian rule.
Which, yes, sold democratic and meritocratic government rather short.
I wouldn't say that. Reinhard favored meritocratic rule (ref: him inviting his subordinates to challenge his power), even if his focus was on military merit.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Grandmaster Jogurt »

The triumphs of the Empire over the FPA aren't demonstrating the superiorities of autocracy to democracy any more than the triumph of the Yang Fleet over the military junta in the FPA during the civil war demonstrate the superiorities of democracy over autocracy. While the systems they are in do have effects on what they can do and how they act, it's the major characters on either side that are the ones who determine the fates. The idea of Yang being better than Reinhard at working with the situation at hand while Reinhard is better at setting up an advantageous situation beforehand is echoed on a larger scale in the way the pair's ambitions and goals affect the battles and the war as a whole. If the victories must be shown to favour one philosophy over another, it's that of proaction over reaction, if anything.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Darth Fanboy »

While I was glad that the Empire was allowed to win and not become another victim of the "good" guys I also ended up rooting for the Yang Fleet towards the end. Yes the Empire ended up winning the war but it was Yang who went undefeated, any thought that Reinhard was untouchable vanished when it became clear Yang could have killed him.

And while the "ideal autocracy" defeated the worst democracy I think the fact that a guy like Yang who hated fighting would keep going the way he did, plus the revelations in the final episode much later on when Reinhard discusses the future with Hilda. It isn't nearly the one sided contest between ideologies that it appears as on the surface.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

I note that the policy I've instituted in the thread is for spoilers to not outpace the last battle. However, given I'm a day or so away from posting Vermilion, I guess it doesn't matter. But please keep it in mind.

As for the themes of the show - a central message is that whether you've got an autocracy or a democracy, the best people need to be in charge. Yang was not in charge, he was led by the foolish, the corrupt, and the immoral, and that's what destroyed the FPA. If it hadn't been for the feckless High Council authorising a fruitless invasion of Imperial space, the disaster at Amritsar (actual name, not Amlitzer, one of many names I need to fix in the coming weeks) would've never happened. Remember, the fate of the FPA was sealed from Episode 15 and the loss of the great majority of 200,000 ships.

Meanwhile, Reinhard snatched strategic victory from the jaws of tactical defeat - unwillingly and unwittingly - because he had chosen superb subordinates who had his best interests in mind.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by MaiazuruX »

Remember, the fate of the FPA was sealed from Episode 15 and the loss of the great majority of 200,000 ships.
Which, by itself, is annoying. But lets admit it: MANY situations favoured Reinhard so much that it made the situation unrealistic. This is normal. It is, after, a soap opera. It meant that Yang's actions, and indeed the actions of anyone competent in the FPA, were relatively meaningless. If anything, the Alliance High Council was TOO corrupt, TOO foolish, to make it believable.

That it makes wrong decisions is okay. But that nearly every single decision was so wrong?

If so, how come the Alliance survived that long? How come it survived UC 640? Was the early FPA that much of an opposite to the late FPA?

And I have two questions which have always bothered me, fleet-wise.

1) Did the FPA really bring 200,000 WARSHIPS in the invasion? From what Yang said, when he stated that Kircheis' forces - 60,000 ships or so - outnumbered him 4 to 1, it seems to me that each of the 8 fleets had about 15,000 ships, thus making a grand total of 120,000 warships. I'd say the remaining 80,000 were support ships, for myself.

2) This one is big, and I've never been able to find out: how big were the opposing forces at the Battle of Dagon? How many ships did each side field? All I know from gleaned info is that the FPA Fleet was much smaller. I know there's a record of the Battle of Dagon somewhere, but it was never translated.

Guess that's enough ranting from me! On with the show! :D
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by MarshalPurnell »

The FPA was founded by a small group of refugees and political prisoners from the Empire. Thus the Empire started out enormously larger and more powerful than the Alliance, with a huge population and economic advantage. I would say the way that the Alliance was able to expand and become a credible threat to the Empire is a rather strong endorsement of the dynamism of a vigorous new democracy. The FPA was always seriously disadvantaged in material factors but was clearly able to better mobilize its resources while still providing a superior standard of living to the people. The Empire got through on sheer dint of its superior bulk, but only after Reinhard came into power to provide a firm hand and merit-based reforms did that advantage became overwhelming.

The series clearly takes a relatively neutral, objective, and dispassionate approach to the events it recounts. Where it does take sides, such as with regard to Rudolf von Goldenbaum, it clearly sides with democracy and against authoritarianism. That said, it does not pull punches about the weaknesses and strengths of either system, which makes for a drastically better setting than a straightforward political morality play. The series does obsess over the nature of history and the cyclical folly of human nature, and it cannot be denied that every system carries within itself the seeds of its own destruction, just as renewal and reform can come unexpectedly and with drastic results.

The Alliance fell, and the point is made repeatedly, because it has lost its way from its original purpose. Cynicism and rent-seeking have replaced idealism and sacrifice, violent partisanship has replaced national solidarity, and hollow ideology has triumphed over common sense. The Alliance was lost even before the Battle of Amlitzer, when its political leadership decided to pointlessly prolong the war for their political advantage, and to placate a fanatic ideology, heedless of the costs and contemptuous of the risks involved. There were people like Yang and the bureaucrats that Reinhard praised, who could have saved the Alliance if they had been trusted with the power to do so. But the system had become corrupt and sclerotic and so they were never in a position to do so. Without the Empire it may have endured for far longer, but nature of war is to be pitiless, and to disregard the greater morality in the simple calculus of power. And to be honest I find the themes expressed about the decline of the Alliance's democracy to be prescient and insightful, which more than justifies any perceived slur; truthful criticism is just that.

Meanwhile Reinhard was basically a kind of world-historic figure, like Alexander the Great. He shows that history can be made by individuals, that if one is talented enough and lucky enough, it is possible to impose one's will on the world. To an extent the Empire basically won the lottery by having him, except of course that the Alliance also had Yang, who was potentially such an individual as well. It is ironic that the very lack of political values inherent in the Empire allowed Reinhard a free hand in bending it to his will, while Yang was utterly constrained by his respect for the forms of democracy. That said, Reinhard is an ambiguous, but by no means evil figure, and many of his worst acts can be excused by a sort of historical necessity. The Empire is drastically better for having him, and the reign of the Goldenloehe dynasty, informed by Reinhard's own recognition of the weakness of autocracy, is implied to be supported by constitutionalism and individual rights. In that sense the Goldenbaum Empire lost as thoroughly as the Free Planets Alliance did, it's just that the conquests of the successor state obscure the issue a bit.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

Which, by itself, is annoying. But lets admit it: MANY situations favoured Reinhard so much that it made the situation unrealistic. This is normal. It is, after, a soap opera. It meant that Yang's actions, and indeed the actions of anyone competent in the FPA, were relatively meaningless. If anything, the Alliance High Council was TOO corrupt, TOO foolish, to make it believable.
I wouldn't call Yang's actions meaningless. His decisions are a central driver of the plot.
1) Did the FPA really bring 200,000 WARSHIPS in the invasion? From what Yang said, when he stated that Kircheis' forces - 60,000 ships or so - outnumbered him 4 to 1, it seems to me that each of the 8 fleets had about 15,000 ships, thus making a grand total of 120,000 warships. I'd say the remaining 80,000 were support ships, for myself.
The fleet numbers in Episode 15 require some mulling. When Kircheis arrived at Amritsar, the Alliance detected 30,000 ships - that's Kircheis, Lutz and Wahlen, not just Kircheis. However, Kircheis says they number 'four times the enemy' when battling the 13th Fleet. That would mean the 13th Fleet was tiny. However, this doesn't take into account losses Kircheis suffered defeating the 7th Fleet, losses Lutz and Wahlen suffered defeating the 12th and 3rd Fleets, or losses the 13th suffered fighting the Kempf Fleet.

However, I agree that the 200,000 ships of the Alliance invasion were not all warships. They would've had to include supply ships, given what we saw of Reinhard's own invasion. But as for how many? No clue.
2) This one is big, and I've never been able to find out: how big were the opposing forces at the Battle of Dagon? How many ships did each side field? All I know from gleaned info is that the FPA Fleet was much smaller. I know there's a record of the Battle of Dagon somewhere, but it was never translated.
If Astarte is any indication, I would've thought the FPA outnumbered the Empire. But I don't know, Episode 40 (the documentary episode) doesn't go into that much detail. It does show the encirclement though. Pretty hard to encircle an enemy much bigger than you, I would think.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by MaiazuruX »

If Astarte is any indication, I would've thought the FPA outnumbered the Empire. But I don't know, Episode 40 (the documentary episode) doesn't go into that much detail. It does show the encirclement though. Pretty hard to encircle an enemy much bigger than you, I would think.
Which is another thing thats always bothered me, and may simply be due to the fact that the author simply didn't think on this very hard - which is bad storytelling in my bok, but hey.

The Alliance was founded in 527 with 160,000 people. By 640, it had enough forces to stand up to the Empire at Dagon. That's 113 years. Now, even taking in the probable full marshalling of the entire Alliance Fleet, facts are facts: you need a huge infrastructure and a huge workforce to build up a fleet, and a huge one to crew each ship adequately. Now, the Alliance actively 'promoted the replenishment of national ressources'. Knowing that natural procreation simply couldn't allow for such a large population to be built up in just over a century, what did they do? Mass in-vitro procreation to supplement the natural births? Cloning? There had to be something to make the Alliance big enough to survive 640.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Uraniun235 »

MaiazuruX wrote: Knowing that natural procreation simply couldn't allow for such a large population to be built up in just over a century, what did they do?
What would be the maximum population growth possible via natural means?
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by MaiazuruX »

What would be the maximum population growth possible via natural means?
The current highest demographic growth rate on Earth is Liberia with 4.5% per year. Lets push the envelloppe a bit and say the Alliance, backing the measures completely, managed to get 5%. That means 160,000 people in 527 and 41,700,000 in 640. Now, is it possible for 40+ million people planet - I'd bet Heinessen was still the only planet of consequence back then - to build up and field a fleet large enough to stop the Empire? If so, the building of the Fleet must have started... at least decades in advance, and even then, I wonder how the people shouldered the engineering and financial weight of it all.

I'm not at all certain a population of less than at least 200-300 million with every effort geared towards defending itself could have managed it. Even if the early Alliance citizens were, as the author said, 'of uncanny determination'.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Grandmaster Jogurt »

Is there any reason to believe the Empire had anywhere near the military it has circa 800 when it started the war with the Alliance? Until contact was reestablished, they had not even the potential of an external threat. I haven't seen much of the Gaidens so that might give some info here, but without that I don't think it's unreasonable to believe the Imperial fleet was a fraction of its peak during the war.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by MaiazuruX »

Is there any reason to believe the Empire had anywhere near the military it has circa 800 when it started the war with the Alliance? Until contact was reestablished, they had not even the potential of an external threat. I haven't seen much of the Gaidens so that might give some info here, but without that I don't think it's unreasonable to believe the Imperial fleet was a fraction of its peak during the war.
Actually, the Second Battle of Tiamat in UC 745 / IC 436 had 48,000 Alliance ships vs 56,000 Imperial ships clashing. And that battle was noted to be the largest ever fought between the two powers since the Battle of Dagon. Its hard to believe that 641 to 744 was made up of only small-scale battles. By the 740s, the average fleet was of 8,000 ships or so, implying that battles might at least had 15 to 30,000 ships involved in total before. This implies that the Battle of Dagon had more total ships than any battle until the Second Battle of Tiamat.

I'm not quite sure how many ships were involved, but its clear the amount of ships was pretty huge. 20,000 total, and probably more.

Even if we go with that and say that the Alliance had roughly 10,000 ships in the fight, I'm really still wondering if it would have been possible to build that up with Heinessen not having a very substantial workforce and industrial capacity. Its said in the series that building ships is extremely pricey, after all.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

For all we know, the low amount of starting refugees is part of the FPA's national myth as opposed to a solid fact, that said:-
Even if we go with that and say that the Alliance had roughly 10,000 ships in the fight, I'm really still wondering if it would have been possible to build that up with Heinessen not having a very substantial workforce and industrial capacity. Its said in the series that building ships is extremely pricey, after all.
There's simply not enough information about how much of the economy is required to support how many ships, when all is said and done. I don't remember where in the series they said ships were 'extremely pricey' myself, but its all relative to stuff we simply don't know.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Grandmaster Jogurt »

Ships on either or both sides from centuries ago could also have been significantly smaller, simpler, or otherwise easier to construct than the modern warships.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by MaiazuruX »

There's simply not enough information about how much of the economy is required to support how many ships, when all is said and done. I don't remember where in the series they said ships were 'extremely pricey' myself, but its all relative to stuff we simply don't know.
Retired Admiral Alfred Rosas, in the Gaiden, said that Bruce Ashbey once considered building a fortress on the Alliance side of the Iserlohn Corridor, but let go of that in order to lobby the Alliance Congress to increase the size of the Fleet.

Rosas than goes on saying that ships cost a lot of money.

Also, in the series, its stated that the Alliance usually spent 12% of its GNP to maintain their fleet. So I'm willing to say that ships are pricey.

AND I'm also willing to say that I've listened to that series too much... :shock:
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

Grandmaster Jogurt wrote:Ships on either or both sides from centuries ago could also have been significantly smaller, simpler, or otherwise easier to construct than the modern warships.
There's some reason to believe that - Wright Staff covered the Dagon-era Battleships of the Empire and Alliance in FFC1 and FFC3. Whilst it lists the crew for an Imperial old-style battleship as "unknown", the crew for an Alliance battleship was IIRC some ~200 men less than the modern version. Size is similar though, IIRC. I'll check the books when I get home.
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