Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

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Who has the cooler ships?

The Empire
47
68%
The Alliance
22
32%
 
Total votes: 69

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Connor MacLeod
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Vympel wrote: True, but the chances of the cultists thinking to deploy caltrops on the off hand that Künmel would completely fuck up a fairly good assassination plan and allow time for the fuzz to arrive (and also anticipate they would go barefoot to mask the sound of their running) are really, really, really low :)
True, but what about other things? Simple garbage or whatever. I hardly ever go barefoot outside without some level of foot protection where I live, simply because there can be tons of nasty shit stuck in the gras sor whatnot. I doubt littering was totally abolished in the LOGH universe :P

Some sort of soft-soled shoe might have been better.
Given the rifles used by the Imperial troops exhibit both beam and pulse, I'm starting to think they're multifunctional. Its interchangeable throughout the series, with the instantly-propagating beam making a final appearance right up to the end.
I wouldn't see much point. You're not going to find any real laser or particle beam that moves so slowly (and even a magical particle beam is hard to justify moving that slowly.) And you can't use tracers here because why bother having two separate kinds of tracers? Esp one that does appear to move visibly slower?

Best rationale I can come up with is the rifles are a combination of projectile and beam rifle, and that they can alternate between settings at will (maybe they have some sort of Mass Effect style ammo block. Other sci fi series have used similar prior ot ME)
Keep in mind that these guys are just military police - High Admiral Kesler's department. The lack of camoflauge is to be expected.
I can give a pass on the camo, but not the body armor. I mean they were carrying shields for crying out loud. If they have that and expect them to be effective, they should be able to make some sort of solid insert body armor to cover at least the vitals. Of course it's not the first time sci fi had unarmored troopers (Navy/Death Star security forces, the rebel troopers on board the Tantive IV.. etc..)

The importance of body armor is further demonstrated by the fact that most LOGH firearms we've seen recieve little ot no resistance from a human body - even the pistols. I doubt whether human shields would have saved Reinhard had not the gunmen been disabled/killed before he could fire. It could have passed through his bodyguards and hit him.

It's also just a bizarre leap between 'totally unarmored" military/police forces and "totally super-armored grenadiers" types with nothing in between.
Actual ground battles in the Gaiden, whilst not employ camoflauge (unless grey and green count), are between armored vehicles and see all troops equipped with panzer grenadier armor.
Admittedly I had forgotten that, so conceded. I also recall at some point they launched a ground assault (which you've covered in this thread) which was combined arms and featured the grenadiers as the main offensive arm, so that would be a further example.

I'm less worried about camo on power armor because, frankly, it's going to have a whole lot more detectability issues than just optical (heat dissipation, for one.)
Unfortunately the subtitles don't show the number in numeric form, and its hard listening, but I'm pretty sure CA is right. Especially where seconds before the same character says that 1 billion people survived the attack originally before the population whittled down to 10 million.
Yeah.. going "down" from 1 billion to 10 billion doesn't make sense. Nevermind that if earth HAD 10 billion at this point in time, you'd think they'd have a much more overt and direct influence on politics and military matters.

My impression is that by this point in time Earth is considered a relative backwater as things go, both in terms of size and influence. That would actually suggest that its population is low for an inhabited world in the Empire, giving us a way to establish some idea of how many planets they hold (but I can bet it will range somewhere in the hundreds-thousand range, and evne then alot of the territory will be either only lightly held/inhabited - eg outposts or isolated facilities - or totally uninhabited.)
I just called them tasers to be honest, since that what they reminded me of when they used them (i.e. cable with prongs shoots out of the gun, hits the guy, he goes down). Its not from the show. I suppose stun guns might be a more neutral term.
*shrugs* I'm confused now, so I'll just have to wait and watch for tha tpoint to see what they are.
I'm at a loss - perhaps the axes are some sort of super-sharp-metal :)
or very dense metal. Really, that's the line of thinking I'm going along with the grenadier/rosenritter armor. And the whole point of axes, it seems, in universe is that they need alot of momentum concentrated on an edge/point to penetrate and do damage - I mean we know the troops have greatly enhanced strength in that armor and getting hit by a flying column of stone does fuck all to armored troops (something we already commented on.)

The whole "armored troops in axes" thing also seems like a deliberate take off of Doc Smith's lensman sci fi.. as do the huge fleet sizes and battles really. I wonder if that served as an inspiration at some point (I know they did do a lensman anime, or I think they did.)

Anyhow, I imagine that when in a zephyr particle cloud they use axes and crossbows because of the sheer momentum/pressure such weapons can generate (maybe a stabbing weapon like a spear or a large knife wouldn't suffice I'm pretty sure heavy crossbows could outdo spears/pikes for raw damage.) In more normal combat I imagine they have higher settings or heavier rifles designed for use by the power armored troops against the same sort of soldiers.

To again touch on the projectile weapon issue - they are wearing what amounts to high tech plate armor, which is likely to be comparable to modern plate inserts I would expect (I wouldnt expect it to be any *worse* - i dont see modern body armor standing up to super-powered axe blows). Given their general resilience to beam weaponry (of both 'blaster' and 'heat ray' variants I imagine), and the fact that unarmored troop hand weaponry (indeed, a knife fucking shatters on armor faceplate!) or even small arms does fuck all, PLUS the aformentioned ineffectiveness of a Flying Stone Pillar, I'd imagine that the Grenadier/Rosenritter armor has quite significant impact/kinetic resistance.

Probably not "super-duper crazy spear throwing" levels attributed to storm trooper armor - I imagine an sufficiently large or powreful handgun or rifle round (magnum or AMR/elephant gun say) could penetrate still, but most conventional rifle rounds (intermediate and full power) probably would not. And that alone is a significant advantage, IMHO.

Course, I could be wrong. I'll hve to pay attnetion to the series more :D
Most gun arrangements appear spinal, but whether they really do run the length of the ship is an open question ...
"Spinal/non spinal" would seem to work better, especially since some of the guns aren't in trenches (I know Brunhild has shown that at least)
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

True, but what about other things? Simple garbage or whatever. I hardly ever go barefoot outside without some level of foot protection where I live, simply because there can be tons of nasty shit stuck in the gras sor whatnot. I doubt littering was totally abolished in the LOGH universe :P

Some sort of soft-soled shoe might have been better
Yeah, but it was an ad hoc idea. I'm pretty sure its based off a real life historical tactic, too. Not sure when it was though. But in any event, there's not much garbage amongst the upper-crust estates of the Imperial elite, it seems :)
I wouldn't see much point. You're not going to find any real laser or particle beam that moves so slowly (and even a magical particle beam is hard to justify moving that slowly.) And you can't use tracers here because why bother having two separate kinds of tracers? Esp one that does appear to move visibly slower?

Best rationale I can come up with is the rifles are a combination of projectile and beam rifle, and that they can alternate between settings at will (maybe they have some sort of Mass Effect style ammo block. Other sci fi series have used similar prior ot ME)
That could work - the guns don't have visible mags, after all. Besides, they clearly do still use projectiles - witness the AFV's obvious autocannon in Episode 57.
I can give a pass on the camo, but not the body armor. I mean they were carrying shields for crying out loud. If they have that and expect them to be effective, they should be able to make some sort of solid insert body armor to cover at least the vitals. Of course it's not the first time sci fi had unarmored troopers (Navy/Death Star security forces, the rebel troopers on board the Tantive IV.. etc..)

The importance of body armor is further demonstrated by the fact that most LOGH firearms we've seen recieve little ot no resistance from a human body - even the pistols. I doubt whether human shields would have saved Reinhard had not the gunmen been disabled/killed before he could fire. It could have passed through his bodyguards and hit him.

It's also just a bizarre leap between 'totally unarmored" military/police forces and "totally super-armored grenadiers" types with nothing in between
Yeah, you'd figure their might be lighter armor variants. One nitpick - Kesler's men were the ones who suppressed the Earth Church on Odin - it was regular soldiers of the Wahlen Fleet (Rinnesal's troops) who had the shields. The military police have slightly different uniforms. Interestingly, the military police had gas masks, but Rinnesal's men didn't - guess they didn't anticipate the Terraists using poisonous gas inside their own base.
Admittedly I had forgotten that, so conceded. I also recall at some point they launched a ground assault (which you've covered in this thread) which was combined arms and featured the grenadiers as the main offensive arm, so that would be a further example.

I'm less worried about camo on power armor because, frankly, it's going to have a whole lot more detectability issues than just optical (heat dissipation, for one.)
Hmmm - was there a ground assault I covered before? I'm drawing a blank on grenadier use except for the assault on Rentenberg Fortress in Episode 22 - did you mean that one?

*shrugs* I'm confused now, so I'll just have to wait and watch for tha tpoint to see what they are.
For your assistance:-

Image
Image
or very dense metal. Really, that's the line of thinking I'm going along with the grenadier/rosenritter armor. And the whole point of axes, it seems, in universe is that they need alot of momentum concentrated on an edge/point to penetrate and do damage - I mean we know the troops have greatly enhanced strength in that armor and getting hit by a flying column of stone does fuck all to armored troops (something we already commented on.)

The whole "armored troops in axes" thing also seems like a deliberate take off of Doc Smith's lensman sci fi.. as do the huge fleet sizes and battles really. I wonder if that served as an inspiration at some point (I know they did do a lensman anime, or I think they did.)

Anyhow, I imagine that when in a zephyr particle cloud they use axes and crossbows because of the sheer momentum/pressure such weapons can generate (maybe a stabbing weapon like a spear or a large knife wouldn't suffice I'm pretty sure heavy crossbows could outdo spears/pikes for raw damage.) In more normal combat I imagine they have higher settings or heavier rifles designed for use by the power armored troops against the same sort of soldiers.

To again touch on the projectile weapon issue - they are wearing what amounts to high tech plate armor, which is likely to be comparable to modern plate inserts I would expect (I wouldnt expect it to be any *worse* - i dont see modern body armor standing up to super-powered axe blows). Given their general resilience to beam weaponry (of both 'blaster' and 'heat ray' variants I imagine), and the fact that unarmored troop hand weaponry (indeed, a knife fucking shatters on armor faceplate!) or even small arms does fuck all, PLUS the aformentioned ineffectiveness of a Flying Stone Pillar, I'd imagine that the Grenadier/Rosenritter armor has quite significant impact/kinetic resistance.

Probably not "super-duper crazy spear throwing" levels attributed to storm trooper armor - I imagine an sufficiently large or powreful handgun or rifle round (magnum or AMR/elephant gun say) could penetrate still, but most conventional rifle rounds (intermediate and full power) probably would not. And that alone is a significant advantage, IMHO.

Course, I could be wrong. I'll hve to pay attnetion to the series more
Yeah, when the armor is penetrated, the marks around the penetration make the armor seem almost ... ceramic in nature. I dunno, it sorta 'cracks'. Oh, and re the use of spears, on at least one occasion we see Schönkopf kill a panzer grenadier with the sharp spear point on the top of his axe.
"Spinal/non spinal" would seem to work better, especially since some of the guns aren't in trenches (I know Brunhild has shown that at least)
I'll give it a go when I get around to amending the article (needs some significant expansion), see how it reads.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

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Vympel wrote: Yeah, but it was an ad hoc idea. I'm pretty sure its based off a real life historical tactic, too. Not sure when it was though. But in any event, there's not much garbage amongst the upper-crust estates of the Imperial elite, it seems :)
It's not a major issue. Like with the body armor, its more a comment on the shortcomings of the pre-Reinhard Imperial Society, including in a technological aspect. In practical terms, I'm sure that under someone reasonable (like Reinhard) issues like those would be easily resolved.
That could work - the guns don't have visible mags, after all. Besides, they clearly do still use projectiles - witness the AFV's obvious autocannon in Episode 57.
I wsa thinking of the fight to take the control room in Ep 23 during the last stages of the Lipptstadt revolt. They were firing non-beam/non visible weapons fire there (it looked like conventional projectile ammo near as I can tell.) and I believe there's an image floating around of their tanks, which mentions they have CPB weaponry as well as railguns (It would be interesting to know if we ever see a tank fire, but I'd not be surprised if the autocannons were some EM gun as well.)

But having checked out ep 57 again I noticed one oather thing. The "bolts" (which is what I'll call the non beam blue fire from this point on) do fuck all to the ground when they hit. Indeed, they pretty much fragment into smaller bolts when striking anything (either the armoured vehicles or the ground) wheras they violently punch straight through.

This is different behaviour from beams, which tend to reflect or riochet off things. and its obviously not the "invisible" gunfire I alluded too earlier unless thy can switch between using some magic blue tracer or not. Possibly its some sort of hybrid setting, part energy weapon part projectile.

Otherwise, they design weapons to look visually identical but to have vastly different internal working mechanisms, which is possible but odd.
Yeah, you'd figure their might be lighter armor variants. One nitpick - Kesler's men were the ones who suppressed the Earth Church on Odin - it was regular soldiers of the Wahlen Fleet (Rinnesal's troops) who had the shields. The military police have slightly different uniforms. Interestingly, the military police had gas masks, but Rinnesal's men didn't - guess they didn't anticipate the Terraists using poisonous gas inside their own base.
Well they didn't expect the cultists to be so damn suicidal.. that fact caught them completely by surprise so it's understandable. I guess religion is fairly uncommon in the Empire, at least of the truly fanatical variety.

And like I sad before, the lack of unpowered body armor is more a comment on the flaws in Imperial society which is part of the plot, and isn't an insurmountable issue at that, especially once Reinhard is in charge. It's really just one part of how the way they wage war is really just an excuse to allow Phezzan and the Earth Cult to manipulate both sides to their own advantage. I mean its well established Phezzan has managed things so that the Empire (if not the FPA also) is reliant upon them for technological aid (like with Geiersberg).
Hmmm - was there a ground assault I covered before? I'm drawing a blank on grenadier use except for the assault on Rentenberg Fortress in Episode 22 - did you mean that one?
I looked back to the Lippstadt rebelliion. It wasnt the grenadiers, it was paratroopers and light armor deployed after Kircheis was killed and Reinhard launched his bid to gain control. It was the masks that confused me. Although the paratroopers bit does hint possibly they have some other intermediate troops between the unarmored secruity forces and the heavily armoured Grenadiers. For all we know either those jumpsuits were armored, or they wore body armor underneath.
For your assistance:-

Image
Image
Oh now I figured it out. You were talking about the pistols, and for some reason I was thinking of the stabby things. Rather front heavy stunguns but yeah, those probably are what they are. There are air tasers IRL that work that way, although not so big or bulky as that.

Yeah, when the armor is penetrated, the marks around the penetration make the armor seem almost ... ceramic in nature. I dunno, it sorta 'cracks'. Oh, and re the use of spears, on at least one occasion we see Schönkopf kill a panzer grenadier with the sharp spear point on the top of his axe.
Nothing wrong with a ceramic of some kind, I mean we use it for body armor. And it could be that those plates are meant to be easily replaced. Sometimes it does look like the Grenadier/Rosenritter armor has some sort of bodyglove underneath. in either case, I still expect it to be at least as resilient to gunfire as what we currently have, maybe a bit better (but perhaps not endlessly so. Sustained, close range gunfire from even a modern assault rifle might still penetrate eventually.)

And I suppose maybe we should consider them halberds then rather than pure battle axes, because that's an awful lot like what they sound like. Though IIRC they can convert their rifles into "axes" too (a weird take on bayonets! :D)
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

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Some more interesting thoughts:

I was browsing through some older messages on the SFconsim forum - always an interesting place to get some ideas or facts when I ran across the above post by Luke Campbell, who I am never short of praise for for his own researches. Anyhow, I ran across this little blurb which I found:
Luke Campbell wrote: Estimates of ICF indicate that a drive laser will need to produce around 10% to 1% of the energy liberated by the fusion pulse in order to trigger the fusion at all. This means that if you have a TW ICF torch, you will necessarily have between 10 GW and 100 GW of laser beams. These have obvious weapons applications.
The short of it is that potential laser (and probably particle beam) weapons power would be within 1/100th and 1/10th (at least) of the power of a fusion reaction (a drive system in this case, although "fusion pulse" does not seem to outrule bombs either.) We know they have ICF for their warheads, and it seems likely in absence of other evidence they have it for their drive systems.

I've already established that based on probable mass and acceleration of the ships (million ton battleships at tens or hundreds of gees) that they are likely in the e18 watt drive output range, give or take an order of magnitude either way (eg e17-e19watt) and probably leaning towards the higher end of that scale. This would mean Battleship firepower could range from as little as e15watts to e18watts for its fore guns.

On the missile side of things, we've already established missile cruisers can chuck off 100 missiles or so every handful of seconds. Missile velocities probably go into the thousands of km/s range, possibly tens of thousands due at least in part to the scenes I've observed but also due to accleration - If starships pull hundreds of gees, I'd expect missiles to pull at least thousands if not more, and a minute or so of drive time should easily put them into the thousands of km/s (and something they should easily pull within a few LS of each other.) And given the missile sizes I estimated should be 10 tons or so. Battleship missiles are a bit larger, but probably not massively more so (less than 100 m long, roughly the same diameter so maybe not more than 10x larger judging by the scene where Mintz's fighter ganks the Imperial battleship's launchers.) 100 10 ton missiles is 1000 tons every few seconds. Assuming a 2000 km/s average missile velocity, the combined KE of a full missile barrage would be 2e18 joules. I wouldn't use it as a precise figure, but an approximate (order of magnitude) estimate. Warhead yields are likely to be at least as powerful, more probably several times that. Also, since I am measuring just the KE of the missile and not the KE of the exhaust, it is an extremely conservative calc. Pure missile battleships would probably chuck out even more firepower, but they don't seem to have/use those. Anyhow, plugging the above number into what I already figured yields between 2e16-2e17 joules over a matter of seconds for lasers in a probably cruiser-scale vessel. Overall it matches up fairly well with the battleship angle.

As far as other calcs go (vaporizing parts of battleships, destroying asteroids, etc.) the calcs mesh fairly well - they at least have high TJ/low Petajoule individual beams (at battleship scale if nothing else) and much evidence points to their materials science being vastly superior to our own (even debris from destroyed ships, nevermind the ships themselves, can sit in close orbit of a star and not be heated up at all.) which can suggest e16-e17 watt firepower for battleships at least as well. I've also noted previously that we know their firepower is invetivably less than what their engines put out (at least with current designs) given that most battleships do not need to fire engines to counter recoil, which also (by my estimates) put them somewhere in the e17 watt range for battleships, so I'm happy that seems to have merit.

The interesting thing bout all of this is that battleships are probably not the "top of the line" example of their fighting technology, only what they are currently capable of mass producing (or of bothering to produce.) things like command battleships could eaisly reach hundreds of MT/s at a minimum, and more probably into gigatons/second (especially shit like Brunhild - I remember seeing one FPA battleship that I figured had maybe like.. 60 or so beams fore mounted) And if you want the extreme end of "capable" there is the fact they were easily able to get Geiersberg mobile - the engineering feats and capabilities (firepowe etc) for their starship tech is staggering.

This does of course beg the question of if they could build bigger ships and massively up firepower n stuff, why don't they? Well R&D and economics are both big things. At the start of the series both have massively ineffective R&D programs, and their economies are in a shit state - both fo which being due to war and external manipulation. Those factors do not contribute to "maximum effort" performance, and only the Empire actually begins to hint at any sort of turn-around. Given time, effort and some research, they probably could turn out bigger ships (quite probably even bigger than most command battleships, say an ISD sized vessel.). To be fair, though, that doesn't mean they could be fielding huge fleets of them the way they do smaller vessels - they might end up having logistical, economic, or other tradeoffs that would mean bigger ships giving them smaller fleets. Specifics get hard to predict at this point, but it is worthwhile to know that the capability exists, anyhow, even if there could be significant bottlenecks.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

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Another interesting bit about Luke's quote is that it could be useful in rationalizing Thor's Hammer/Vulture's claw. If we figure that if they use a 700-800 TW laser as an initiator for the fusion "flame thrower" effect as I think it might be, the effect might be 10-100x (at least) greater than the input energy - single to double digit MT/second. Considering its a sustained weapons effect (and it does not instnatly vaporize targets) that could push the weapons potential yield well into double/triple digit MT/s. That would still be problematic with some of the "upper end" calcs I made, but considering its still just an idea its an interesting way to explain the differences.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

Hey guys - yeah, I'm pretty late. Two reasons. First, because I'm just about to finish reading Dance with Dragons, which has occupied a lot of my free time. Second, because this part of the series is a bitch to divide into requisite parts. There's two battles in short succession in the first half of Season 3 - the Tenth Battle of Iserlohn and the Battle of Mar Adetta System. However, getting there from the beginning of the season (and having a background to them that makes sense) is much harder than usual.

By way of explanation, I'm doing 10th Iserlohn first - and after covering relevant events in a way I think is informative and yet concise has so far carried me from Episode 55 through to Episode 65.

The battle is at Episode 70.

So yeah. Hopefully I'll be done in the next few days - lots of the info in 55-69 can be shifted to Mar Adetta (which is Episode 71 and part of Episode 72), and I've been working on that basis (i.e. purposefully ignoring stuff that I can do next month), but its still a tough slog.

Will be done soon.

In the meantime Connor, a fellow has appeared on gineipaedia who has some reference works that he's translated. He hasn't posted any in full yet, but he has talked about the kind of stuff he has. Here's an example:-

"For example, the number of guns as reported by the data book for the Ulysses differs from what is currently in the infobox: 8 20cm neutron beam cannons, 22 15cm electron beam cannons, 6 12 cm rail guns, 12 missile launch tubes, etc."

Indeed it does, because the infobox counts are just me counting holes I can see by reference to models/ FFC drawings. But in terms of the neutron beam cannons at least, the numbers match perfectly - the 8 20cm guns are obviously the forward guns. Anyway, just the sort of detail I'm sure you'd be interested in. Hopefully this gent can provide more info down the line. Sounds like the forward guns are a different type of gun to the port/ starboard / others.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

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Ok, done. Sheesh. I ended up putting more in this entry than I originally planned - that should make doing the next battle much, much eaiser, because I've pretty much covered everything in the leadup except for what Bucock was doing at this time.

The resumption of hostilities and the Tenth Battle of Iserlohn - Episodes 55, 58 - 62, 64 - 70

Yang's retired life

After his marriage to Frederica Greenhill, Yang Wen-li settled into a quiet retirement. But with the Alliance "standing on tiptoes with a noose around its neck", João Rebelo was not willing to take any chances that would give the Empire an excuse to destroy the Free Planets Alliance completely. Legislation was enacted against anti-pacifist groups and activities that harmed relations with the Empire in general. A state of emergency was also put in place - restricting debate and the right of free assembly. Further, surveillance teams from Alliance Fleet Intelligence were placed to watch Yang.

Meanwhile, High Admiral Lennenkampf commenced his administration on Heinessen - stationing four battalions of armored grenadiers and twelve battalions of light infantry on the planet. Though his staff protested the force was too light, Lennenkampf had no fear.

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"If the Alliance bastards want to kill me, let them try! I'm not immortal. But if I die, so does the Alliance."

Lennenkampf harbored intense suspicions about Yang. He too put Yang under surveillance, believing there were close ties between Yang and various anti-government movements. Imperial soldiers were even stationed at the front door of his house (and that of Alex Cazerne and his family) on a permanent basis.

Commissioner Udo Dater Fummel (Lennenkampf's Chief of Staff) sent a report to Odin to that effect. Rear Admiral Anton Fellner expressed concerns that Lennenkampf might employ heavy handed tactics that would drive Yang into taking action against the Empire and start off a new war. Fleet Admiral Oberstein ordered him not to interfere, noting that Lennenkampf would resent the intrusion onto his authority. Fellner left thinking that Oberstein had hidden motives - but whether they were to use Yang to gather up the forces that would fight the Empire, or causing a fracture in the Alliance, he could not say.

Yang gave Lennenkampf no reason to believe he was plotting against the Empire - but Lennenkampf was adamant in his belief, calling his quiet retired life a "farce".

Merkatz makes his move

Ironically,Yang was plotting such a treason. Julian Mintz had relayed Yang's message to the secret fleet of High Admiral Merkatz on his way to Earth, and Merkatz' small force of 60 ships were on their way to 'liberate' Alliance warships slated for dismantling.

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The Shiva leads the fleet

On 16 July 799, in the Reykjavik System, Rear Admiral Mascagni, overseeing the dismantling efforts from his flagship RK-387, received a call from unidentified friendly forces offering 'assistance'. Though he had received no notice, he did not see the point in refusing, and gave them permission to dock with the flagship as requested.

Only when he saw that the ships approaching were battleships did he realize something was amiss, but there was nothing he could do. The flagship was buzzed by Spartanian fighters and surrounded:-

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The Shiva approaches the RK-387

On an open channel, the 'attackers' announced:-

"We are freedom fighters, sworn against the Empire's oppressive rule! We will not stand idly and watch while the Alliance government, cowering to the Empire, meekly obeys them and destroys these precious vessels! We will take them, and let them labor for true freedom and independence! Do not put up a futile struggle. Hand them over! In addition, we welcome any comrades with open arms!"

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Construction ships make off with battleships

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The Shiva places two cruisers under tow

Inspired, 4,000 men of the Alliance fleet made for shuttles and left with Merkatz fleet, which had seized 464 battleships and 80 carriers.

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Back at Dayan-Khan, the pennant numbers of the warships are removed

The events of 22 July

Rumors began that whilst Merkatz (himself only rumored to still be alive, at this point) had carried out the hijack of the warships, it was Yang who had instigated it. Though the rumors were true, those who spread them did not have any factual basis for their beliefs. Yang's enemies in the Alliance - men like Negroponte and his ilk - wrote anonymous letters to Lennenkampf in that regard, hoping to bring Yang down.

Though Lennenkampf didn't believe those letters, he wanted to believe them - and on 20 July, accepted Fummel's advice to advise the Alliance government to arrest Yang for actions violating the National Security and Counter-Rebellions Act, and ordered a unit of armored grenadiers attached to the commissioner's office to make ready.

The Alliance government was trapped. If they refused to arrest Yang, that could result in war. If they arrested Yang, that could fracture the Alliance (particularly if Yang's subordinates refused to accept the arrest). João Rebelo, after seeking counsel from his advisors (Huang Rui who was aghast, and later Enrique Martino Borges de Alantes e Oliveira), had Yang arrested on 22 July. He was placed in the Central Public Prosecutor's Office.

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Yang being interrogated

The night of 22 July, Rebelo came to see Yang in custody, asking him to sacrifice his life for the survival of the Alliance. Yang flatly refused. Realizing that his wife wouldn't accept the situation, he resolved to buy time to be rescued.

Soon after Yang's arrest, Oberstein called Lennenkampf from Odin, having been made aware of Yang's arrest. He recommended that, in order to deal with Yang and Merkatz in one blow (offering the chance of surpassing Reuenthal and Mittermeyer in distinguished service), Lennenkampf should take Yang into his own custody, and bring him to Imperial territory. When he did so, Merkatz was sure to attempt a rescue. Lennenkampf thanked him for his advice.

Fellner expressed his concerns that if Lennenkampf failed, then the Alliance government might unite with Yang and present a united front of resistance against the Empire. If they did so, that would be another reason to go to war and complete the conquest of the Alliance. Oberstein noted that if he failed, they would simply send someone else. In Oberstein's plans, both Yang and Lennenkampf were potential sacrificial lambs.

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"Lennenkampf cannot become a Fleet Admiral while he lives. But were he to die performing his duty, he would. Being alive is not the only way to serve your country."

While Yang was in custody, surveillance on his former subordinates increased - which served to alert them to the drastic change in situation. Dusty Attenborough met with Walter von Schönkopf over dinner - and came to the conclusion that the government had surely seen through the Empire's intentions. Therefore, the only way they could avoid Imperial intereference was for the Alliance to eliminate Yang:-

"Anyway, this is the scenario that the government has penned. Here, there's this bunch of anti-Imperial agitators. They don't understand the labor and the worries the Alliance government suffers, preventing the Empire from completely subjugating us, and instead keep trumpeting the cause of democracy. Those men would raise the national hero, Admiral Yang, above them, and plot to topple the current Alliance government, in order to challenge the Empire, damn the consequences.

But, as a disciple of democracy, Admiral Yang refuses to use violence to topple the government. The angered agitators treat Admiral Yang as a traitor, and want to murder him. When the Alliance forces rushed in, they were able to exterminate the agitators - but they were unable to save Admiral Yang.

The Admiral becames an important sacrifice, for the preservation of his nation's principles.

What do you think? A thoroughly thought-out scenario, isn't it?
" - Walter von Schönkopf

Attenborough and Schönkopf were only too happy to play the role of agitators, and rescue Yang. Alliance Police and special operations troops under the command of Colonel Jawaf attempted to pick them up after leaving the restaurant - but Schönkopf led them on a car chase, eventually leading them straight into a Rosen Ritter ambush. Heinessenpolis' Highway 8 was strewn with wreckage.

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Attenborough and Schönkopf, partners in no actual crime (except possibly DUI)

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In a wooded area overlooking the capital, Attenborough and Schönkopf met up with Captain Baghdash and the rest of the Rosen Ritter and formulated a plan for Yang's rescue.

Rebelo ordered a media blackout to hide the news of the Rosen Ritter revolt from Lennenkampf. On the way to the opera (also that same night) the Rosen Ritter attacked Rebelo's motorcade. Using rocket launchers, they destroyed his escorts and forced his limousine to a stop.

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Rebelo, captured

From a armored vehicle, Baghdash tapped into Admiral Rockwell's desk at the Underground Tentative Headquarters (beneath the ruins of the Strategical Planning Centre) . Schönkopf demanded Yang's release, threatening Rebelo's execution and an attack on Imperial troops in the capital if he did not comply.

Rockwell advised that he couldn't make that decision, and asked for time. Hoping to avoid a war, he resolved to kill Yang and then suppress the Rosen Ritter with the Alliance military. As for Rebelo - he would have to be sacrificed.

What Rockwell didn't know was that Baghdash had purposefully leaked the conversation onto Imperial communications channels. Lennenkampf, attending the opera (which Rebelo was supposed to be attending), received the report of Rebelo's kidnapping soon after. Lennenkampf ordered his armored grenadiers to battle stations.

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Imperial troops deploy in defence of the Imperial Consulate

As Yang watched the Imperial preparations from his cell, an officer entered to execute him. Buying a little time with banter, Yang managed to dodge the first shot by falling out of his chair. The second shot never came - he was shot by Frederica, who had arrived with the Rosen Ritter to rescue him. Infiltrating the building had been easy - apparently Rockwell hadn't realised they would try to rescue Yang whilst still negotiating.

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Time to go

Fighting their way out was unecessary- Rainer Blumhardt's announcement as to their identity was enough to put the guards to flight.

The kidnapping of Lennenkampf

At their hideout, Yang met with Rebelo. He offered him terms - Yang and his subordinates would take Lennenkampf hostage, fleet Heinessen, and the Alliance would not interfere, and act as if they were threatened not to pursue. In exchange, Yang would take full responsibility for the unrest. All the Alliance need do was ask the Empire to find and capture Yang. Further, he asked that those who had served under him and remained with the Alliance military not be punished - Cazerne, Fischer, Murai and Patrichev and many others who had played no part. Obviously, they would also release Rebelo, and bring no trouble to the civilian populace.

Rebelo agreed. Yang gave Schönkopf the command.

Lennenkampf was set up at Hotel Shangri-la. Having kept the situation from High Admiral Steinmetz on Urvashi, he was preparing for the troops under his command to seize key locations in the capital when the Rosen Ritter assault began, at approximately 5:40am on 23 July.

With heavy frontal defences, the Rosen Ritter infiltrated via underground communications conduits to reach the basement of the hotel, and used elevator repair shafts to reach the 14th Floor. They cut elevator cables and blew up stairways with explosive charges to keep Imperial reinforcements below at bay.

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Panzer Grenadiers are caught in an explosion

On the eastern stairway, Imperial troops caught up to Unit 7 of Rosen Ritter before they could finish setting charges . When Schönkopf arrived to reinforce the defence, a bloody melee on the stairwell ensued, with a Seffle particle generator prohibiting the use of energy weapons.

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With the Rosen Ritter having the high ground, many panzer grenadiers went to their deaths, repeatedly cut down with ease by Schönkopf and his men. Eventually, Schönkopf directed Blumhardt to take 10 men and capture Lennenkampf.

Charging through continuous enemy fire, Blumhardt and his men cut down Lennenkampf's last defenders and took him hostage.

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Lennenkampf doesn't go down without a fight..

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...But he does go down

The Rosen Ritter and their captive left the building the way they came, then blew up the shaft to prevent pursuit.

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The bloody aftermath

A prisoner at Yang's hideout, when Lennenkampf laid eyes on Yang and Rebelo, he realized he had been beaten by Yang once more, and further, had been sold out by Rebelo. Rebelo was released that morning, dumped in the woods. Lennenkampf, deeply ashamed of his failure, used the rope that had originally been used to bind him to hang himself.

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Lennenkampf's end

In a difficult position, Yang decided that in their demands they would act as if Lennenkampf was still alive. Though he was loathe to dishonor the dead, Lennenkampf's body was placed in a medical capsule, with make up applied for him to look alive.

The next day, 24 July, Yang's men took over Heinessen Military Spaceport, boarded the shuttles they had demanded from the government, and launched for the cruiser Leda II, which was waiting in orbit, with Dusty Attenborough in command.

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Despite the pleas of his superiors, Vice Admiral Cazerne resigned from his position and left Heinessen with his family to join Yang.

Imperial response

On 30 July, the same day that news of the destruction of the main Earth Church headquarters was received, the Empire received news of the unrest on Heinessen.

Kaiser Reinhard had taken ill that day, so the news was discussed solely amongst his subordinates. The news ignited discord between Fleet Admiral Oberstein and the rest of Reinhard's top admirals. Armed with information from Captain Ratzel - one of Lennenkampf's assistants (who had objected to Lennenkampf's single-minded hounding of Yang) - Mittermeyer, Reuenthal, and others blamed Lennenkampf for his unfair treatment of Yang and advocated punishing him.

Oberstein was not concerned with Yang's treatment at all - he noted that Lennenkampf's intentions were to safeguard the Empire, and furthermore, Yang's kidnapping of Lennenkampf was a grave crime, and ignoring it trivialized both the Empire and the Kaiser.

Following the meeting, Oberstein reported to Kaiser Reinhard - who (after reproaching himself for picking Lennenkampf) ordered that High Admiral Steinmetz replace Lennenkampf as acting commissioner. He also ordered that someone be sent to negotiate for Lennenkampf's release. Privately, Reinhard was actually happy at Lennenkampf's failure.

On 8 August 799, Reinhard decreed that Odin was too far from Alliance territory - the new Imperial capital would be permanently established on Fezzan. Count Mariendorf was ordered to remain on Odin as regent, whilst military and diplomatic functions moved to Fezzan with him. All high-ranking officers would go as well, but for High Admiral Kesler, High Admiral Mecklinger, and High Admiral Wahlen. The transfer would be completed within a year, with Reinhard arriving on 17 September. Mittermeyer would depart first, on 30 August, whilst everyone else would travel with the Kaiser.

In noting his orders down, Hildegard von Mariendorf could tell he craved battle. Mittermeyer and Reuenthal understood his intentions as well - the transfer of the capital would serve as a launching point for the conquest of the Alliance.

El Facil Declares Independence

On 13 August, El Facil, a planet near the Iserlohn Corridor, declared independence from both the Free Planets Alliance and the Empire.

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El Facil

No other planets followed suit - isolated, the government of El Facil aggressively tried to recruit Yang to its cause.

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Francesck Romsky, leader of the El Facil Revolutionary Autonomous Government

Yang, having united with the forces of High Admiral Merkatz at Dayan-Khan (which he named "the Irregulars"), was spending his days idly, uncertain of how to proceed. El Facil's decalaration of independence gave him and his fellows the inspiration required. He agreed with Attenborough that Iserlohn Fortress should be retaken, and to use El Facil as a bridgehead to unite the surrounding star systems and establish a liberated territory.

Yang's thoughts turned on his intention to negotiate with the Kaiser - for example - in exchange for the return of Iserlohn to the Empire, the Empire could acknowledge El Facil's autonomy. Yang had absolute confidence that Reinhard would never break any promise he made.

However, Yang would not go to El Facil immediately. If they did, he reasoned that other star systems would be drawn to its cause, and with their very limited fleet, would not be able to defend them against the fleets the Kaiser would send. Worse, rushing to El Facil could make the Alliance declare Yang's Irregulars an enemy, and side with the Empire.

Another possibility to consider was that if an Imperial invasion began before they made for El Facil, it might drive the Alliance to recall him and place him in overall command of the military (i.e. Chief of Strategic Command and Supreme Commander of the Space Fleet).

As Yang waited, the Empire attended to the relocation of the Imperial capital (the relevant fleets having relocated to Fezzan on schedule). Kaiser Reinhard made no decision in relation to the situation in the Alliance - waiting for reports on events from High Admiral Steinmetz and Vice Admiral Sahm (one of Lennenkampf's men stationed on Heinessen).

Steinmetz had initially planned to go to Heinessen himself - but as he reached the outer rim of the Gandharva system, Steinmetz received a summary of events from Vice Admiral Sahm. With the whereabouts of Yang unknown, he worried of the possibility of a surprise attack on Urvashi, and turned back to defend it.

It was in October that Steinmetz received a communication from Yang's group regarding the return of Lennenkampf's body. The body was placed in a capsule and was retrieved from a designated sector of space. Inside the capsule was a letter explaining Lennenkampf's death. With that letter and his own investigations, Steinmetz believed he had uncovered as close to the truth of the affair as possible, and reported his findings to the Kaiser.

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The capsule

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The Forkel turns and heads for home

On 9 October 799, after reading it, Reinhard summoned Oberstein, Mittermeyer and Reuenthal. Reinhard's first comment when the meeting began was that he felt sorry for Lennenkampf - whilst he was not a man of perfect character, he did not deserve to die in the manner that he did. Now, he would take advantage of the break betwen Yang Wen-li and the Alliance government, and invite Yang into his camp. Asking Oberstein's view (who had been vehemently opposed to Reinhard's original overture to Yang after the Battle of Vermilion), he was surprised when Oberstein agreed - provided that he sever his ties with the Alliance completely. Still, Oberstein argued there was no way Yang would ever serve Reinhard.

Setting the issue aside, Reinhard avoided committing to an immediate re-invasion of the Alliance. With the Alliance government dancing a 'crazy dance' to avoid war, the Kaiser was content to watch a little more. Later, Hildegard von Mariendorf would speculate that Reinhard's indecisiveness was borne from his inability to decide what to do about Yang - whether to let him gather up the threats to the New Empire and destroy them in one fell swoop, or eliminate Yang and the rest of the Empire's enemies piecemeal.

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"The problem is that if Yang Wen-li's popularity, the Alliance's military power, and former Fezzan's economic power form an alliance, it might pose a threat to the New Reich."

Lennenkampf's funeral was held on 1 November 799. After the funeral, he summoned his top admirals (High Admiral and above) to renew the discussion on the future course of action.

It was a statement by Bittenfeld that roused Reinhard out of his months-long period of passivity:-

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"The reason your majesty has been proudly ever-victorious lies in the fat that you've always held firm control of history. On this particular occasion, are you going to fold your divine arms and let history control you instead?"

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Hell No!

Reinhard shot out of his chair and declared Bittenfeld correct - he would ignore the smaller legalities of the Treaty of Barlat and resume the unification of the universe, the utmost just cause. He ordered Bittenfeld to take the Black Lancers to Alliance territory immediately - he would join Steinmetz on Urvashi and maintain security until the arrival of the main fleet.

In the near future, Reinhard would announce Lennenkampf's death and announce a punitive expedition against the Alliance to hold it accountable.

Finally, with the new Imperial capital on Fezzan some years from completion, Reinhard declared the capital was wherever he was - the Brunhild would be his throne for the foreseeable future.

The Black Lancers launched on November 10 - the first expedition carried out by the New Empire under its new military flag, and only 141 days since Reinhard had been crowned.

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The Black Lancers launch

On the same day, the Kaiser's speech was broadcast. The Alliance population, under a media blackout, were shocked by its content - the suicide of High Admiral Lennenkampf, the escape of Yang Wen-li, the admission of Lennenkampf's intervention in domestic affairs, and the Alliance government's conspiracy were all detailed.

"I say to the citizens of the Alliance: The time has come for you to consider if your government is worthy of your support ... I admit to my lack of sagacity and the disgrace of the Imperial government. These acts deserve criticism, and I am profoundly saddened that a man of such talent was lost and that world peace was disturbed.

At the same time, however, I cannot overlook the Alliance government's incompetence and insincerity. High Commissioner Lennenkampf was unwarranted in his demand for the arrest of Fleet Admiral Yang. But that is all the more reason that the Alliance government should have appealed the wrongfulness of such a demand to me, and protected the rights of Fleet Admiral Yang, the most important contributor to the Alliance.

By pandering to the strong, they broke their own laws. Moreover, when that scheme fell through, in an effort to deflect retribution, they sold out the High Commissioner. For temporary profit, they sold out their greatest contributor, and then my agent. Where did the pride of republican democracy go? At this stage, it is an injustice to continue acknowledging such a political body. The spirt of the Peace Treaty of Barlat has been desecrated. The only way to rectify this is by force.

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While Fleet Admiral Yang is not entirely blameless, he was a victim, and was merely protecting his own rights. If Fleet Admiral Yang turns himself in to my camp, I will treat him and his party with due courtesy.
"

Imperial Invasion Plan

On November 11, Reinhrd announced the fleet formation for the 2nd Ragnarok Operation. Following the Black Lancers was the Mittermemyer Fleet. After that were the fleets divided from the former Lennenkampf Fleet, led by Admiral Alfred Grillparzer and Admiral Bruno von Knappstein, respectively. In addition, the fleets of Admiral Grotewohl, Admiral Wagenseil, and Vice Admirals Kurlich and Meifocher would follow, with the middle section fortified by High Admiral Eisenach.

Bridging the section between Reinhard's directly commanded fleet and the forward fleets would be High Admiral Fahrenheit. The position of Chief Staff Officer to support the Kaiser fell to Fleet Admiral Reuenthal, with Admiral Bergengrun being in charge of fleet deployment. Guarding the rear would be High Admiral 'Iron Shield' Müller. High Admiral Lutz on Iserlohn would also be given an order to join the battle.

Fleet Admiral Oberstein would stay on Fezzan and assist in overseeing civil affairs.

Later that month, the Imperial Fleet entered Alliance territory from the Fezzan Corridor. A 10 ship fleet carrying Alliance special emissary William Odets, which had been earlier fobbed off and ignored by the Black Lancers, met the Mittermeyer Fleet just before it entered Alliance territory. Fleet Admiral Mittermeyer sent it on to Fezzan, for Odets to make representations for the cessation of hostilities directly to the Kaiser (he was ignored on Fezzan, as well).

To El Facil

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"Um, won't he give us a downpayment?" - Yang reacts to Reinhard's offer

Yang realized his path to return to the Alliance was now completely blocked. Waiting to go to El Facil was pointless. They would go to El Facil, and recapture Iserlohn Fortress. Most likely, the Kaiser would order High Admiral Lutz to launch from Iserlohn - a large-scale pincer movement was a favorite tactic of his. That would give them the opportunity required.

Julian Mintz, Louis Machungo and Olivier Poplin heard the speech whilst they were on Odin, having arrived there with the Wahlen Fleet after the subjugation of Earth. Julian was certain where Yang would go, and departed Odin to meet him.

Yang's "Irregulars" had since left Dayan-Khan, and were wandering from place to place, replenishing their supplies (which had dwindled whilst they waited at Dayan-Khan) and collecting additional personnel. These efforts soon reached their limit, and they too made for El Facil without further delay.

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Yang's new flagship, the lucky Ulysses

Lusiana Attacked

On 2 December 799, the Mittermeyer Fleet launched the first attack of the new campaign, against the strategically located planetoid Lusiana. In the arms manufacturing plant on the planetoid, cruisers and destroyers, which weren't restricted under the Treaty of Barlat, were being constructed.

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A destroyer, foreground and cruiser leaving Lusiana

Vice Admiral Baunsgoal, with the permission of Fleet HQ, ordered Commodore Desch (part of the Yang Fleet prior to its disbanding) to launch all ships capable of navigation, and to lead them to find Fleet Admiral Yang with as many crewmen as they could take.

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Vice Admiral Baunsgoal and Commodore Desch

Baunsgoal remained behind and attempted to buy time.

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Lusiana's defence batteries

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The Mittermeyer Fleet returns fire

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Lusiana is destroyed

The escaping ships endured pursuit from the Imperial fleet, with only half managing to escape. While gathering personnel and supplies, they also made their way to El Facil, expecting to find Yang's fleet.

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An Alliance destroyer a split second before destruction

Yang's fleet arrived at El Facil on 9 December. The El Facil Independent Revolutionary Government set off a public relations blitz on his arrival, hailing Yang. The Irregulars were soon renamed the El Facil Revolutionary Reserve Force.

Alliance resistance

The Black Lancers were still proceeding towards Heinessen, wiping out several ineffectual attempts at resistance along the way. But its supply lines were cut off at one point by guerilla tactics of Commodore Bufort, and its advance was temporarily halted. Bittenfeld destroyed Bufort's headquarters and dispersed them in the process - learning from POWs that High Admiral Merkatz was indeed still alive. The information that he was with Yang was forwarded to the main Imperial fleets that followed.

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Imperial transports destroyed

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Königstiger wipes out resistance

"In other words, Lennenkampf acted upon biases that were actually truths."- Fleet Admiral Reuenthal.

The recapture of Iserlohn

Planning for the recapture of Iserlohn began in earnest after Julian Mintz arrived on El Facil. Whilst Yang intended to lead the operation himself, the government of El Facil objected, ostensibly because they feared attack whilst he was away, either from the Empire, Alliance, or an anti-revolutionary group. Yang suggested leaving High Admiral Merkatz behind in his stead, but Dr. Romsky found him unsuitable. Yang surmised that the real reason they wanted him to stay behind was because they feared his wielding military power without oversight.

In any event, Yang relented, and tasked High Admiral Merkatz with executing the operation, whilst Brigadier General Schönkopf would do the actual fighting. Vice Admiral Attenborough would remain behind with Yang so that he could learn about managing an operation away from the front. Julian Mintz volunteered to participate in the boarding operation with the Rosen Ritter.

On New Years's day, Space Year 800, High Admiral Merkatz' fleet welcomed the change of the year in one corner of the Iserlohn Corridor. The operation was officially launched on 2 January.

On Iserlohn, High Admiral Lutz received a message from Imperial Fleet Supreme Headquarters:- they Iserlohn Fleet was to immediately launch and to advance to the rear of the Alliance capital.

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High Admiral Lutz and Vice Admiral Wöhler in the Iserlohn command centre

Confirming that the message was encoded, he ordered all troops to prepare to launch. However, on the following day, Lutz received another order, conflicting with the first:- "The duty of the Lutz Fleet is to staunchly defend Iserlohn Fortress. The sortie is not approved. Yang Wen-li often employs fraudulent tricks. Also, there are Alliance and Fezzani sympathizers hidden inside the Fortress, and there is a chance that they might take over the Fortress and seal the Corridor once the stationed fleet leaves. I repeat my order: Don't move."

The order was soon followed with a postscript:- "In relation to the present order, there appears to be those who are committing dishonest actions, who have been taken advantage of by the Fezzani because of it, and are attempting to weaken the Fortress from within. Conduct an investigation immediately."

Lutz decided to suspend the sortie and conduct an internal investigation. With over one million soldiers stationed on Iserlohn, it was inevitable that some corruption cases would be discovered by the investigation - a double-digit number were uncovered, with dozens of soldiers arrested.

Lutz took the results as confirming the authenticity of the second order, and decided to remain at Iserlohn.

Soon after, a third order arrived:- "Admiral Lutz, why haven't you launched yet? Leave only a portion of your defensive units at the Fortress, and head for Heinessen with your fleet."

Lutz ignored the order as another trick.

By 7 January, a fifth order had come. This was actually the first authetic order from the Kaiser - the rest had been fakes sent by Captain Bagdash from the Shiva, hiding in the corridor.

On the Brünhild, the Kaiser was furious that Lutz had not followed orders. Vice Admiral Streit suggested that it was a result of Fleet Admiral Yang's trickery, but did not see what benefit he would get from Lutz not leaving the fortress. Hildegard von Mariendorf advised leaving Lutz' temporary disobedience alone, given it did little harm to their position.

Reinhard did not agree - he decided that with Yang roaming about, it was all the more important to have Lutz mobile to keep Yang's movements in check. The order to Lutz was repeated. However, Reinhard still had doubts - the launch order was not strictly enforced, and with the appearance of a fleet of 1,000 Alliance ships in between the Black Lancers at the vanguard and the Mittermeyer Fleet, the Iserlohn matter faded from Imperial attention.

The presence of this small force signalled the presence of the main Alliance fleet behind them - Reinhard intentionally avoided battle, whilst High Admiral Müller at the rear was ordered to take extra caution in case it was a feint aimed at sealing off retreat. At Mittermeyer's request, fleet movements were halted in order to conduct intelligence collection with reconnaissance ships.

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Imperial Reconnaissance Ship

Based on the intelligence gathered, it was discovered that the Alliance Fleet under Fleet Admiral Bucock was about 20,000 strong. Reinhard's attention shifted to thoughts of Alliance tactics, and the Iserlohn matter was set aside.

Meanwhile, Reinhard's second authentic order was also ignored as a fake.

Captain Baghdash then sent a final message: "If you intend to disobey my orders and not launch, I will hold you accountable for your crime after I annihilate the entire Alliance fleet."

Lutz decided Yang Wen-li was trying to lure them out of the fortress and capture it while they were away - after all, he had used the same scheme before. Confident of success, he thought that for Yang to use the same trick twice meant that the spring of his intellect had dried up. The Lutz Fleet would lanch with all forces - he would make Yang think he had fallen into his trap, draw his fleet out of hiding, and at the right time, turn his fleet around and push Yang's fleet into the Thor Hammer's effective range and destroy them at will. It was 12 January 800.

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"Sages drown in their intellect. Yang Wen-li's calendar has few days left."

On the next day, the 13th, the movement was discovered by Merkatz' fleet. With the fleet from Iserlohn numbering approximately 15,000 ships, it was clear the entirety of the station fleet had taken off.

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Merkatz celebrates the success of their ploy

Yang's plan had depended on Lutz wanting to entrap their fleet from the very start - hence Lutz being subjected to Baghdash's scheming from the beginning. In wanting to execute an entrapment, Lutz would have to maintain a certain distance from the fortress, which would make it easier for the operation to succeed.

"We've entrapped Lutz, but Lutz probably thinks he entrapped us, too. Lutz is a renowned tactician, and his fleet outnumbers us by about ten times. Unless we seize control of the Fortress before his fleet returns and encircles us, our window of opportunity will be closed for good. We will initiate the operation at once." - High Admiral Merkatz.

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The fleet fires up

The Lutz Fleet detected the enemy fleet at its 6 o'clock position, 800,000km away, closing on the fortress. Lutz ordered his fleet to immediately turn and close the trap.

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The Skirnir comes about

As Merkatz' fleet approached, Baghdash sent a code to Iserlohn throuh the comm channels - "For health and beauty, take a cup of tea after a meal."

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Lutz could only watch as Merkatz' fleet entered the firing range of the Thor Hammer with no activity from the surface of the fortress whatsoever. In the Iserlohn command centre, the Thor Hammer was not responding, nor were the floating gun platforms. Worse, they had lost control of the fortresses' magnetic structure, and the automatic defence system was not accepting commands. All computers on the station were neutralized.

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"This ... must be the souvenir from Yang Wen-li!"

Vice Admiral Wöhler tried to override the computers and switch to manual control, but the lockout was complete.

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Shiva descends into Iserlohn's hydro-metal

The time until the Lutz Fleet's return was five hours - unless the fortress defence system could be seized before then, they would be defeated. The Shiva rammed into a (too small) docking bay and directly deployed the Rosen Ritter (joined by volunteers Mintz, Machungo, and Poplin).

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May require some body work.

They were greeted by a horde of Imperial grenadiers.
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Imperial defenders

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Battle is joined

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Julian and Olivier get stuck in

As the battle went on, the Imperial troops realized they were fighting the Rosen Ritter, and their morale flagged, sending them into retreat. The Rosen Ritter seized the 4th Reserve Control Room just as the Lutz Fleet returned. Julian input another message to unlock the Thor Hammer:-

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"One cup of Russian tea, not with jam, not with marmalade, but with honey."

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The Skirnir approaches Iserlon Fortress as the Thor Hammer begins to activate

Lutz realised what was happening and ordered an immediate retreat.

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Before it could get away, the Lutz Fleet was hit.

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The Skirnir just out of the firing line

The Lutz Fleet scattered and escaped. Inside the fortress, Imperial morale was shattered. Though they still outnumbered the enemy, they nevertheless surrendered or retreated one by one. The battle carried over into the early hours of the next day, January 14. At 0045 hours, Vice Admiral Wöhler proposed to surrender so long as his men were safely evacuated. Schönkopp left the decision to Julian, who accepted.

Wöhler, however, did not join the evacuation, and shot himself in the fortress command centre.

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Imperial forces are loaded onto a ship for evacuation

Aftermath

It had been a year since Yang had reluctantly abandoned Iserlohn. In recapturing the fortress, Yang had secured a base for support at which he could gather anti-Imperial forces to the cause of El Facil. However, in taking Iserlohn he had made one miscalculation - he had not though that the Alliance would be able to manage a credible military response to the Imperial invasion. The Alliance Fleet under Fleet Admiral Bucock had departed Heinessen for its last sortie around the same time that Merkatz had set off to recapture Iserlohn.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

Oh, one big change I forgot to mention - the CA subs are wrong when they use "Prince" in relation to Reinhard, Braunschweig, etc. Its actually Duke. Which makes a lot more sense when you think about it - neither Reinhard nor Lichtenlade were ever part of the Goldenbaum family, so why would they be called princes? As for Braunschweig, he was only a relation through marriage.

The only time Prince is accurately used in the series, you can hear the English word right there in the dialog. And the kanji in the captions all translates to Duke, not Prince.

Oh, and changed Baron Kümmel's name to the correct spelling (from Episode 57).

EDIT:oh, and Duke Braunschweig's name is Otho, not Otto.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Darth Fanboy »

All the more reason for an English dub!

:(

Ok subtitled Blu Rays. Revisiting these battles has been fun, good job once again Vympel.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Darth Fanboy »

All the more reason for an English dub!

:(

Ok subtitled Blu Rays. Revisiting these battles has been fun, good job once again Vympel.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by MaiazuruX »

Man, was that Reinhard bloodthirsty or what?
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by MaiazuruX »

Although, honestly, I like Reinhard. I just disagree with the 'War is Imperative', even when the enemy is left with no means to truly defend itself.

This is where the author and I disagree in philosophy. Unification does not have to be absolute in my mind.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Grandmaster Jogurt »

Either Prince or Duke should be valid translations, I think, if I remember correctly and the term in use is kōshaku (公爵). It would be Prince as in Fürst as its own title of nobility without relation to a King or Emperor. If the latter form of Prince is actually heard in the dialogue, it could actually be Prinz, as the Imperial language and culture are based on German.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

It is indeed 公爵, which apparently historically translates to Duke (google translate agrees with this, lol). I was told this is from someone on the wiki who just joined who was involved in the fansubbing of Season 2 of LOGH at Cornell University in 2000. In any event, Given that "Prince" is heard loud and clear later in the series, I'm inclined to go with Duke. Having two seperate things both translate into "Prince", whilst technically accurate, just seems wrong/confusing to me. But yeah, this is why we need official English subs, to resolve such matters! :)
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

Another point in favour of 'Duke' over 'Prince' brought to my intention:- "Grand Duke Herbert that lost the Battle of Dagon is titled 大公, which literally means "big duke". Thus 公 is clearly Duke. The term "Prince" as it is used sometimes in English or European sources, to mean a noble ruling their own sovereign territory or principality, has its Chinese/Japanese kanji equivalent as 王, which however translates as "King" (which is still lower than Emperor which is 皇帝). 王 never translates as Prince. Prince in the sense of an emperor's son or a king's son would be 皇子 or 王子 respectively."

Also, if anyone can identify which ship is firing these:- http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/5140 ... ncher1.jpg

I would appreciate it. Because I can't place these missile launchers on anything.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Connor MacLeod »

I haven't a fucking clue. The way you presented stuff I want to say it looks like the Skirnir or Forseti (not as sure about Salamander) but I dont think either one was there. It's not a conventional Battlehsip nor is it a cruiser, I think. I want to say the launchers are stuck close to the engine array of some ship, but which kind of ship we can't say, and most battlehsips or fast battleships have more angular engine sections. Besides which, another thing that tells me it isn't a standard batlteship/cruiser luanch is that we've seen missile launches - they come from the side (Julian Mintz sliced one up I think).

Alternately - and I do think this is quite possible - we're looking at some sort of fuckup. Maybe none of the knonw ships were meant to fire something like that, but they just drew it in, or something. Kinda like how the Shiva's forward gun count has been fucked up at least once (its even in your current update!). I suppose if youw ant to stay in-universe it could end up being the LOGH equivalent of the "HangarlesS" ISD, or the various "subclass/variants" that were 'identified' in Dark Empire :P

Best explanation is its some obscure flagship, possibly one we've never seen before.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

I haven't a fucking clue. The way you presented stuff I want to say it looks like the Skirnir or Forseti (not as sure about Salamander) but I dont think either one was there. It's not a conventional Battlehsip nor is it a cruiser, I think. I want to say the launchers are stuck close to the engine array of some ship, but which kind of ship we can't say, and most battlehsips or fast battleships have more angular engine sections. Besides which, another thing that tells me it isn't a standard batlteship/cruiser luanch is that we've seen missile launches - they come from the side (Julian Mintz sliced one up I think).
Just the Mittermeyer Fleet, and yes none of the other flagships were there (Skirnir was at Iserlohn, Forseti is on Odin - it never fights again in the series, though you see it one more time landed on Fezzan later - Salamander was on Odin too). I wonder if it could be Droisen's flagship Cuchulainn or Bayerlein's Nürnberg (both are Mittermeyer subordinates), but the hull detail doesn't seem to match with either of them.
Alternately - and I do think this is quite possible - we're looking at some sort of fuckup. Maybe none of the knonw ships were meant to fire something like that, but they just drew it in, or something. Kinda like how the Shiva's forward gun count has been fucked up at least once (its even in your current update!). I suppose if youw ant to stay in-universe it could end up being the LOGH equivalent of the "HangarlesS" ISD, or the various "subclass/variants" that were 'identified' in Dark Empire

Best explanation is its some obscure flagship, possibly one we've never seen before.
Yeah, the Shiva's forward gun count is inconsistent and appears to change in between shots (probably depending on how much detail the artist decided to draw in, given the distance). In the end, on the wiki I simply picked one and ran with it. The CGI version of the Shiva on the box cover (inside flap) of Fleet File Vol. 10 has a different count too, so I couldn't even rely on that to figure out which one I should chose!

We never see Horst Sinzer or Volker Axel von Bülow's flagships - given they're also Mittermeyer subordinates they might as well rate unqiue ships as well at some point in their careers.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Vympel wrote: Just the Mittermeyer Fleet, and yes none of the other flagships were there (Skirnir was at Iserlohn, Forseti is on Odin - it never fights again in the series, though you see it one more time landed on Fezzan later - Salamander was on Odin too). I wonder if it could be Droisen's flagship Cuchulainn or Bayerlein's Nürnberg (both are Mittermeyer subordinates), but the hull detail doesn't seem to match with either of them.
I though the Cuhulainn was a Alliance command ship? The only vessel I see on Ginaepaedia associated with Droisen doesnt look likely, unless it's on top. Nurnberg is a "maybe" but I havent seen any detailed images of it up close to confirm or deny (the Paedia images aren't detailed enough.) but I'm inclined to believe not.

Instinct tlels me this is some vessel more along the lines of a "stnadard battleship" in form, just with a less blocky, more angular engine array. It may not even be a flagship. I still havent watched the series yet (too much to watch on my HD as it is) but I'm guessing there are probably similar cases to this happening wher e things aren't easily identified. its either a "Tector" situation, or its an error (reused footage or animation just stuck in as filler maybe, like the gun counts or the odd way beams can change color, shape/diameter, number fired from port, etc.)
Yeah, the Shiva's forward gun count is inconsistent and appears to change in between shots (probably depending on how much detail the artist decided to draw in, given the distance). In the end, on the wiki I simply picked one and ran with it. The CGI version of the Shiva on the box cover (inside flap) of Fleet File Vol. 10 has a different count too, so I couldn't even rely on that to figure out which one I should chose!
The hilarious bit is, I might te tempted to argue they can change gun counts and armament like I've argued before... but this discrepancy shows up in the same scene when the Shiva is raiding the dismantling yards to steal warships. :lol:

Maybe LOGH warships use liquid metal technology in some form that allows them to morph gunports and such at will. :lol:

(although TBH? some of the case where turrets or other weapons arrays appear or disappear on hulls do make me think of liquid metal shit sometimes... so I'm only half joking. I'm afraid at some point evidence will pop up pointing to *precisely* that.)

We never see Horst Sinzer or Volker Axel von Bülow's flagships - given they're also Mittermeyer subordinates they might as well rate unqiue ships as well at some point in their careers.
[/quote]

Could be. On the other hand its quite possible therea re warshps that won't fit into anything or that may remain unclassified, much like Curtis' own Star Destroyer/Executor/Walker listing.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

Connor MacLeod wrote: I though the Cuhulainn was a Alliance command ship? The only vessel I see on Ginaepaedia associated with Droisen doesnt look likely, unless it's on top. Nurnberg is a "maybe" but I havent seen any detailed images of it up close to confirm or deny (the Paedia images aren't detailed enough.) but I'm inclined to believe not.
Droisen's ship in the series is called Kücrain, which is a mistranslation of Cuchulainn according to all Japanese sources I've seen (it certainly means nothing in its own right, as a google search reveals). The Alliance ship is called Ku Horin in the Laserdisc version, and Cu Chulainn (a legitimate variant of the spelling for said Irish mythological figure) in the DVD version :)

(always scroll down on the wiki, name variations and background info is always noted :))

But indeed the images are rarely detailed enough.
The hilarious bit is, I might te tempted to argue they can change gun counts and armament like I've argued before... but this discrepancy shows up in the same scene when the Shiva is raiding the dismantling yards to steal warships. :lol:

Maybe LOGH warships use liquid metal technology in some form that allows them to morph gunports and such at will. :lol:

(although TBH? some of the case where turrets or other weapons arrays appear or disappear on hulls do make me think of liquid metal shit sometimes... so I'm only half joking. I'm afraid at some point evidence will pop up pointing to *precisely* that.)
I haven't noticed such evidence yet, but you never know :)
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Darth Fanboy »

Depending on an Admiral's battle plan and tactics, and the scarcity of Alliance ships, why not customize gunports as needed assuming it was time and cost effective to do so? I don't think liquid metal would come into play on ships but there is a lot of apparent customization in LoGH.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Connor MacLeod »

I haven't really developed any specific ideas about hull materials yet. Its just interesting oddities I've noticed WRT artwork and such.

I really should post an "update" to my thoughts and observations. I need to go through this current one nad finish noting stuff.

The one thing I do want to point out is the mention of the 'magnetic structure' of Iserlohn - apparently that suggests there is some sort of interesting magnetic/electrogmagnetic element to the Hydrometal armor - pretty much along the lines of ideas I suggested before in relation to it.

Oh yes and Merkatz is becoming one of the more interesting characters to me. I like Yang alot more than Reinhard, but Merkatz for some reason just really stands out over others for me. This series does a good job of presenting lots of interesting extra characters who stand on their own without being totally eclipsed by either Reinhard or Yang.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Alliance invasion, part 2
In an attempt to save the liberated zones from starvation, the fleet made a requisition to Rear Chief Staff Officer, Rear Admiral Cazellnu at Iserlohn, for 90 days of food rations for 50 million people, seeds for 200 species of edible plants, 40 artificial protein plants, 60 hydroponics plants, and the ships to transport them – as a start. Simply the request for food rations was onerous – grain alone would be 5 billion tons. Iserlohn Fortress itself didn’t have more than 700 million tons of grain on hand.

Rear Admiral Cazerne raised the prospect of an enemy attack on the transport fleet. Such risk was ignored by Commodore Falk, who argued that the fleet would stop any such attack. Facing a crisis, Fleet Admiral Lobos communicated the request to the Alliance government.
A bit on logistics in LOGH, at least for 50 million people. We could probably extrapolate upwards for the rest of the universe, in terms of figuring out scale of certain things - agricultural demands at least, and shipping. With some guessing it might even be extended to figuring out interplanetary shipping ability (at lesast in a lower limit)

Of course in any ongoing capacity we'd have to figure out how much grain each person uses in a given day or something.. might be able to do that by, like, caloric intake minimums or what farmers need/use. It's not likely that the Empire's people overeat.
The transport fleet, under Admiral Scott, consisted of 500 10-million ton cargo ships, and 26 armed escorts.

A lightning fast mass missile attack by the Kircheis Fleet annihilated the transport fleet in moments.
I'm not sure if the 10-million ton figure represents the mass of the ships themselves or their cargo carrying capacity. Interesting that 500 10 million ton ships would carry 5 billion tons (about the amount of grain they figured on needing.) That's also suggesting that the rest of the stuff they hauled was insignificant in weight compared to the rations.

I'm also not sure how "realistic" the mass carrying capacity is, mainly because I havne't watched the ep to see what kind of transports they were. IIRC their transport ships are pretty damn big though (larger than the starships) so the cargo carrying capacity SEEMS low. Then again maybe we should go less by mass and more by volume. There could also be other considerations (need to carry fuel for operational range, or suchlike.)

Also I havent looked at the scene yet so I dont know if we get much detail on the missile bombardment.
Ulanfu then ordered the launch of all remaining missiles – unfortunately, an energy beam struck the Pan-Gu’s missile launcher mid-launch, causing a massive warhead detonation and destroying the ship.
We know form other sources they often carry nuclear (fusion warheads at least, although I've heard some hints they may use fission weapons too) weaponry, yet this is not the only case of such missiles or warheads going off like this - which isnt something nukes do IRL. This means they are something other than nuclear warheads, or the method of fusion they use is somehow more volatile for whatever reason (Antimatter catalyzed fusion maybe, or maybe it inovlves some sort of high energy density capacitor, or whatever.)

This can also be somewhat mitigated by the fact starships aren't inert objects, so the warheads alone need not destroy the ship (although there's nothing saying that can't be the case either.)

Alternately, it was something that had to do more with the launching system getting struck and destroyed rather than the missiles (the energy storage units for the launchers perhaps. We know they not only can fire lots of missiles, but they can impart quite a bit of velocity to them)
Vice Admiral Kempf on his flagship Jotunheim opened his attack on the 13th Fleet with a missile swarm, whilst the Spartanian and Valkyrie fighters of the respective combatants fought for supremacy between and around them.
...
Yang’s Spartanian squadrons did well, outmatching the skill of the opposing Valkyrie pilots. In response, Kempf (a former Valkyrie pilot himself) ordered his pilots to half surround the enemy Spartanian’s from behind, and lure them into range of the main guns of the fleet.
Interesting in that much of this it is implied that missiles play a heavy/prominent role but beams seem not to be as extensively mentioned. Indeed this seems to hint that the fleets are engaging at missile duels outside the ranges of their guns. At least this is how I inteprret it. Given what has been said before about beam/missile weapons, it could be that circumstances (whatever they are) are dictating that missiles are more effective or useful at longer ranges in this case.
Spartanians get close to one of Kempf’s cruisers
Fighter actually caught in the diamater of the beam? That is.. interesting.. since a fighter seems (tenatively) longer than the gun ports on even a battleship, nevermind a cruiser. I'd have to do scalings to double check this, but I ma too lazy :P
In the Alviss System, the Mittermeyer Fleet, led by the flagship Beowulf warped in at extreme close range to the 9th Fleet.
I wonder what "extreme close range is", if we know positioning roughly we might figure out how close starships can warp into a system.



multi-beams per port from a standard battleship

The mention of "multi beams from ports" Why they do it I dont konw - some sort of shotgun effect, or to increase rate of fire, or perhaps it has point defense purposes.

Kircheis vs Yang - Amritsar specific.

Back at Iserlohn, Admiral Dwight Greenhill had reported the situation to Fleet Admiral Lobos, recommending immediate withdrawal of what remained of the fleets to Iserlohn.

Lobos, refusing to accept reality, would have none of it. He ordered all ships to regroup at the Amritsar system for a decisive battle.
Another case of FTL comms.

The 13th Fleet responded by lining up its heavily armored battleships into a defensive wall, whilst having the smaller ships fire through the ‘seams’ in the wall.
This offers an interesting possibility with tactics and formations. It is possible that shields can "reinforce" one another in some fashion, making them harder to penetrate. If so, this might give some insight into how fleet battles are conducted, and context ot other things (I believe they do place priority on "breaking up" formations, and often if that happens, ships tend to blow up in rapid order.) It could also suggest shields can be angled (like SW shields) for maximum effect, which again may suggest the importance of formations and why breaking them up can be disastrous (flanking manuvers, crossfires, etc.)

It could also suggest a use of missiles as "line breakers" at long range, and the latter "escorts" seen to be paired to certain flagships.


The 8th Fleet flagship, the Krishna, suffered a hit in its engine room. Unable to maintain orbit, Vice Admiral Appleton ordered all hands to abandon ship. Witnessing the destruction of his fleet, he remained aboard as the ship plunged into the star.
Antigrav must be in the engine room. Note that despite losing "engines" the ship doesn't blow up.
He ordered the guns switched to close range and for the Valkyries to be launched.
...
It was what Yang had been waiting for – as the Black Lancers turned the 13th fired on them at their most vulnerable, causing significant casualties and destroying many of the Valkyrie fighters just as they left their hangar bays.
Vympel mentioned this before. This might represent the sort of "break" in formation I alluded to before WRT tactics and weapons/defenses (concnetrating firepower and defenses, and the breaking up of the same.)
Putting the fleet in a swarm formation, the 13th concentrated its fire at the head of the Imperial formation whilst retreating, doing considerable damage.
This seems to imply that concentration of fire can locally overwhelm defences, which again plays into the little theory I outlined above.
..20,000,000 men had been lost out of the more than 30,000,000 mobilized. Reinhard had dealt the Alliance military a blow that would cripple it for the foreseeable future.
If the losses in ships are simialr to crew losses (likely) that means they lost something like 2/3 of their fleet - or over 130,000 ships.


Re: Gunhead noting the '3 beams from a single gunport' idea.
We know from certain episodes (as well as the 3rd Tiamat battle) that the fleets can do "artillery fire" where all/a lot of the fleet's beams combine into one massive beam - it may be the reason we so often see only individual beams striking ships when they're firing so many at a time is that over long range they may combine into one?
WEll it confirms the "magical" nature of their beam weapons despite being called lasers or particle beams. It may be they combine or split up ilke that and it can scale upwards or downwards (indivudal mounts can split up into smaller beams, or individual mounts can combine into a single beam, even amongst multiple ships.)

It could also just be different kinds of beam "ammo" odd as that may be. As Vympel has noted, they make mention of running out of "energy" for the guns, even though there's no reason they can't run the ships on reactors. It's one of those things that deserves further evaluation.


****

To comepsnate for cutting the Alliance invasion short of the Lippstadt rebellion, I went back some time ago and added some extra updates


796 (IY 487)
Unwilling to believe Vice Admiral Pastolle, a veteran of 100 battles...
This means that within the lifespan/career of a single person 100 battles of unknown scope/scale occured. It isn't impossible to speculate on 100 battles per "generation" form this.

Four hours after the defeat of the Alliance’s 4th fleet, the Imperial fleet made contact with the 6th Fleet. The first Imperial ship was spotted at the rear of the fleet, whilst the command staff was having a meal.
Assuming the 2000 ls (mentioned in the novel) distance was roughly kept, that comes at around 5 kps^2 average. Of course, its unlikely it was kept, and we dont know initial velocities, so as a primary calc it is somewhat suspect, although it probably can still be used to support tens/hundreds of gees accel along with the others (someone has to slow down and turn around, or one fleet has to catch up, to intercept each surrounding fleet piecemeal, and to do all that in that volume of space and within that timeframe would require acceleratinso in the magnitude of tens or hundreds of gees.)

It also sets out a combat endurance of ~4 hours, approximately. this isnt neccesarily a limit of any kind.

The Imperial fleet suffered 150,000 casualties.

The Alliance fleet suffered 1,500,000 casualties.
Looking up on Gineipaedia under the BAttle of Astarte they note that ~4 million survivors FPA, and 2.45 million Imperial survivors. That tells us several things:

Average ship crews of aorund 100-150 apiece. It probably varies slightly depending on makeup, since the bulk of the fleets will be smalle rships (cruisers and destroyers) rather than battleships, but I'd bet a few hundreds crews top ofr battleships (more for flagships, but thats unsurprising.) I think the 100-150 crew figure is decent for cruiser range ships, though.

This also tells us that despite taking substantial ship casualties (or at least that is what is hinted at by the battle) from at least two fleets - probably mor than half the total fleet, "only" 20% of the ship crews involved actually died. This actually does tell us there are good odds at surviving a ship destruction and getting recoverd (A good thing too, since attrition is murder.) This also hints at a good deal of damage control/survivability even on crippled warships, since we do not (as I recall) very often see escape pods.

795 - 4th battle of Tiamat

- the war had been involved for at least 150 years. With at least 100 battles involved, thats at least 1 battle (major?) every 1-2 years. Even if only a few thousandd warships are lost per side per battle, thats many hundreds of thousands of ships lost over a century and a half. It's probably a combination of large fleets with fairly rapid and advanced industrial capabilitiy, limited by the FPA's faltering economy and the Empire's largely stagnant social system.

If we go with the 100 battles per "generation" estimate, we're talking more like 500-600 battles. However, this is more problematic as it assumes a fairly constant "pacing", which isnt neccesarily the case (from what I recall Vympel saying, it probably ISN'T) But as an order of magnitude estimate it doesnt matter greatly. I'd probably bet on a few hundred battles though, and we're still talking hundreds of thousands or millionso f ships lost throughout the 150 years or so.

Even if we're talking 500 people lost per ship at that rate, we're only talking tens or hundreds of millions, perhaps several billions lost over that same period. It doesnt include any sort of infantry losses, but infantry and ground battles do not seem as significant casualty-wise as the space battles. In the LOGH universe, space warfare seems to be the dominant/primary means of warfighting, and the most decisive one. But even with the "tens of billions" of population numbers, we're still talking "drop in the bucket" relatively speaking.. less than 10% of the population.. hell less than 1% in all likelihood.

This is even more puzzling when you factor in that over a 150 year timeframe we're talking about 5-6 generations worth of humanity coming to age, and thats alot of room for population growth (if not expansion) - tens of billions over that timeframe seems highly likely, if not more. This gets even crazier when you throw in the already-existing confusion over population sizes.

Which means that either a.) my above estimate of losses is a drastic under-estimate, or b.) I am more than likely missing or ignoring something or c.) People don't fuck verey often in LOGH :P

There may be a D and E but I'm not thinking very clearly factors wise. Anyone may feel free to correct or add to the list. :P
..was commanding a full fleet when not even 20 years old was a source of much discontent amongst the old-guard military brass and the nobility of the Empire at large.
Brunhild is new at the time of 4th Tiamat, at least according to your statements.. I assume he was around 17-18 before he took command of the thing, implying the ship took no more than a year or two to build.. certainly no more than a couple years tops (I doubt they promote teenagers to Admiral in LOGH, even with royal favor.) I'd definitely bet on a year or less being likely, givne what I'd seen in the Gaidens and other examples (he'd been commanding other ships prior to commanding whole fleets.) This is consistent with Parsival's building at least. I suppose it could be that Brunhild was in the process of construction prior to Reinhard's elevation, but I have long had the strong impression it was purpose built for him as a sign of favor.


Additionally: Brunhild up close and personal - I count at LEAST 22-24 forward firing guns there. I doubt that's even close to the total (we see others in other cases) so it might be more closer to 30-40 (which is in line with other major flagships.)

....Admiral Greenhill reported that their fleet had lost 18,651 ships and 2,280,000 men.
I'd say its a safe bet that a good 30,000-40,0000 ships at least were lost between Tiamat and AStartes alone, and this was prior to the major invasion by the FPA that ultimately crippled its naval capability for the rest of the series. Figuring around 330-350 thousand or so ships prior to the FPA invasion of the Empire, we could figure they may have had around 375-400 thousand ships prior to those major battles. That isn't even an upper limit, either.

I'd guess the Imperial fleet is similarily strong, if not moreso.

Iserlohn:
Six times in 25 years, the Alliance had deployed massive fleets in an attempt to take the fortress, all ending in abject failure, in large part due to Iserlohn’s enormous main weapon, the Thor Hammer, capable of wiping out thousands of ships in seconds.
In LOGH terms, I'd guess "massive fleets" are tens of thousands of ships easily (20-30 thousand at least) if not greater (50K or more) and that each failed due to taking substantial losses (too many to successfully take the fort) I'd guess that if the invasion fleet's forces were reduced to a 1:1 parity with the garrison fleet (10-15K IIRC) that reinforces my estimates.

This in turns suggests the FPA in that timeframe could have lost between 50-100 thousand ships to Iserlohn alone.

Again this isnt a precise figure, but it rather shows the scope and industry of LOGH (although not their greatest military acumen.)
It took two weeks to get to Iserlohn.
Heinessen to Iserlohn in 2 weeks.. ~130,000c maybe?
..the fortress received a “strange transmission” from a light patrol ship dispatched from Odin..
...
..they discovered their patrol ship Bremen (an Imperial cruiser) being pursued by Alliance ships.
Interesting that a cruiser is considered a "light patrol ship." What do they consider a heavy patrol ship - a battlecruiser?
The Bremen closed on Iserlohn, and its pursuers were seemingly warded off by Iserlohn’s floating gun batteries.
Whilst staying out of Thor Hammer range. Note that later on, when the 13th fleet as a whole arrives, they don't deploy guns to fend them off or destroy them, suggesting that Iserlohn's main offense is the Thor's hammer (which makes sense.) The lasers comprise a secondary battery that provides point defense and anti-ship defense against small formations, but not against whole fleets of thousands of ships.

From the images you provide we see they have at least 500 guns, if the numbering system means anything. So this provides us a rough idea of capability or parity.

The guns also have a much greater rhange than 1.5-2 light seconds, obviously. Although this isn't consistently portrayed in cases as there are cases where they stop juts outside of Thor hammer range and the floating turrets aren't used. Unless they simply dont have enough to affect many ships or they're range isnt that much greater than Thor's hammer (and far shorter than existing guns.) If that is the case, one has to wonder why they can't better equip it with heavy antiship beams with multi-LS ranges.

Another possibility is the only antiship weapon is Thor's Hammer, whilst the floating turrets are point defense.
Those opposed to the invasion noted that both the Empire and the Alliance had been carrying on the war at a level far in excess of what their economies could sustain, and that the FPA’s economy would collapse if an escalation of the war was undertaken. Furthermore, too much human talent was tied up with the military- the social fabric of the Alliance was in danger of coming undone.
One thing to bear in mind with this quote, (which I may have noted earlier, I don't remember yet) is that the economic situations of the FPA and Empire are not guaranteed to be the same. I would have guessed that from the outset, the Empire has a smaller, but more stable economy, largely due to its cultural makeup (nobles and peasants) - that leaves a fair bit of under-utilization (which changes once Reinhard takes command.) The FPA has a more sophisitcated culture, and generally seems more "driven", which in theory gives it the larger, and probably superior economy. Unfortunately, they're ideological retards (as we soon find out) and in their own way just as blinkered as the Imperials are. Which means that, for the most part, they end up squandering a good deal of their advantage in silly and pointless ways (EG every Iserlohn battle up til Yang takes the damn place.)

And frankly, I really wonder if their intel on the Empire is at all good. Surely they can't expect that 200,000 ships or so is somehow going to be able to defeat the whole Imperial fleet (which is going to be at least as large, probably vastly more so.) Nevermind feedin gand supporting the supposed "25 billion" population they envision.

One also begs the question of to what extent they have stripped their own defenses to amass this fleet. Are these representative of the "mobile" assets they have to devote to offensive operations, or have they compromised their own defensive capabilities? And if so, how much? I don't remember much mention being given that the FPA ever left it self totally exposed to counter-conquest by this, as ill-conceived as it was. One wuld think that had the FPA been left totally, utterly, exposed to attack by this deployment, Reinhard or some other admiral would have launched a counter-invasion.

Which in turn suggests they had signiifcnat military assets tied up in defending their own territory (IIRC we know at least one fleet was fully devoted to protecting the capital.) And they commited 8 out of what.. 13-14 fleets to this battle?
More than 200 star systems fell into Alliance hands without opposition, some of them inhabited, with 50 million Imperial citizens in all.
[/quote]

Assuming this ratio holds true thruoghout the Empire (unknown but not unreasonable, we're prboably talking on the order of 100,000 total systems under their control. Most of those are likely to be sparsely or totally uninhabited, but I'd guess that it still guarantees at least many thousands of fairly well populated planets (millions or more), even if the estimate is off significantly (we're still probably talking tens of thousands of uninhatbed planets, and even just a handful of habitable planets would produce at least several thousand total.) I'd say about 10-20% of those planets were habitable, if we figure an average population between a million and 2 million or so. Maybe several times that if we figure a fair number have populations in the hundreds of thousands

Of course, I suspect the population numbers are just estimates anyhow, and planet numbers are really only useful for potential resources available (since most of the industry appears space-based and at least partly automated - at least as far as warmaking capacity goes.)
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by MaiazuruX »

The idea of ''battle'' in Legend of the Galactic Heroes seems to vary. Yang himself, in the books, is said to be a man who has participated in over 100 engagements by Astarte, and yet during the Third Battle of Tiamat, its stated that the Alliance and the Empire had fought 329 Battle since 640, 3rd Tiamat being the 330th. This means an average of 2.15 per year, which means Yang, even if he had participated in all major battles - which is rather impossible - would have seen 12 to 15 of these.

This tells me that a 'battle' actually means several things.

A skirmish - border patrols clashing. From a few ships to 100 ships on each side.

An engagement - sizeable fleet elements clashing. Several hundreds to perhaps a few thousands on each side.

A battle - At least one fleet on each side, and often more than one on each side. Several thousands to tens of thousands on each side. These are likely the 329 battles Reinhard and Kircheis were talking about. Perhaps some of the upper-range engagements could be included. I doubt that the skirmishes have been included in the total, though.

As for the population... well... the population never truly made sense. I sometimes thought that the author was saying these numbers to show the scope of a situation. The numbers are simply not consistent.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel »

The Battle of Marr-Adetta System - Episodes 67, 69, 71-72

Background

Reinhard's speech had thrown the Alliance into chaos - political debates raged between those who advocated unconditional surrender to the Empire and those who argued for resistance even in the face of annihilation. Civilians evacuated the cities to unpopulated mountainous areas for safety, and a violent clash between civilians and security forces broke out at Heinessen Spaceport when panicked citizens tried to leave the capital.

After Kaiser Reinhard announced the resumption of hostilities against the Alliance on 10 November 799, Fleet Admiral Alexander Bucock (ret.) returned to service (he had previously rejected a request from João Rebelo to do so.)

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Mrs Bucock brings the Admiral's uniform out of storage

When Bucock arrived at Alliance General Headquarters, he denied his old aide's request to accompany him on the campaign - being only 27 years old, Lt. Commander Soon Soulzzkaritter would not be allowed to participate - the campaign would only be for those over the age of 30.

Bucock instead tasked him with going to Admiral Yang - with the message "Don't think about taking revenge for me. You have a task that only you can accomplish." Further, he was given one of two of Bucock's bottles of excellent brandy to take to Admiral Yang.

Admiral Bucock assured "Soon Sool" (as Bucock was always wont to call him, finding his full name too difficult to say) that this was only in case of he remote possibility he was defeated.

Bucock was assisted in his preparations for the campaign by Chief of Staff Admiral Chung Wu-Cheng (38 years old, and qualified to participate). In the midst of those preparations, Chung summoned Vice Admirals Edwin Fischer, Murai and Patrichev from their respective assignments.

They were tasked with finding Admiral Yang and delivering to him a transfer contract for 5,560 ships of the Alliance Space Fleet - they would take the "merchandise" in addition to the contract. In response to Murai's objection at the dilution of their forces, Chung noted that they didn't stand a chance against the Imperial fleet anyway - what he and Bucock planned was "a bit of useless resistance". All three men agreed to Chung's request. They departed with Lt. Commander Soulzzkaritter.

Around the same time that the operation to recapture Iserlohn was initiated, the Alliance Fleet - numbering approximately 20,000 ships, departed Heinessen. Amongst the flag officers joining the sortie were Vice Admiral Ralph Carlsen (former commander of the 15th Fleet), Rear Admiral Zarnial and Rear Admiral Marinetti (all veterans of the Battle of Rantemario). It was December, 799.

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The Rio Grande, overall flagship once more

Battlefield deployment

Because of enemy interference, Imperial communication with Iserlohn Fortress, as well as the Black Lancers, had been blocked. Still, their intelligence reports had confirmed the strength of Bucock's fleet. The younger Imperial Admirals - Bayerlein, Grillparzer and Knappstein, all agitated for battle.

Neither Fleet Admiral Reuenthal or Mittermeyer thought the Kaiser should be urged to battle - Reinhard's focus was already on where and how to do battle.

Reinhard received the report from reconaissance ships that the Alliance fleet had deployed in the Marr-Adetta System on 13 January, 800. The entirety of the Marr-Adetta System formed a large asteroid belt filled with an incalcuable amount of debris - with the largest planetoid being only 120km in diameter. Communications were difficult to maintain, and the star produced chaotic bouts of solar wind.

Bucock had chosen the battlefield specifically for these characteristics. One corridor (920,000km long and 40,000km wide) spiralled through the asteroid belt - which was where the Alliance Fleet was waiting.

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The corridor

The Kaiser called Bucock's intent obvious - a final throwing down of the gauntlet, sacrificing his life to inspire the spirit of democracy. Vice Admiral Streit advised the Kaiser to avoid battle, leave one fleet behind to bottle in the Alliance Fleet, and then proceed to Heinessen, where the entire conquest would be settled. Bucock could be ignored.

Reinhard refused, thinking it discourteous to refuse Bucock's challenge. Fleet Admiral Mittermeyer was charged with commanding the left wing. High Admiral Eisenach was given the right. High Admiral Müller was given the rear guard. High Admiral Fahrenheit would wait in the outer circle of the system as a reserve.

In the vanguard would be Admiral Grillparzer and Admiral Knappstein.

Battle

On 14 January, the Imperial Fleet arrived in Marr-Adetta. Though Iserlohn Fortress had already fallen, the news had not yet reached the fleet. Battle was joined at 1030 hours on 16 January 800.

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Battle is joined

After a brief exchange of fire, Bucock withdrew his fleet into the corridor. Grillparzer and Knappstein took it as an opportunity to pursue and force an entry into the corridor at 1050 hours.

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The Rio Grande and a pair of destroyers

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Grillparzer's flagship, the Eistla

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Its sister ship Ulfrun, Knappstein's flagship

On the Brunhild, Fleet Admiral Reuenthal and the Kaiser agreed that the vanguard's entry in the corridor had been too easy. Though they saw the trap, they decided that Grillparzer and Knappstein should be allowed to move freely, so they could observe Bucock's tactics.

As Bucock's ships fought a fighting retreat, they began to moor themselves to nearby large asteroids, and held their position until 1120 hours, when the Marr-Adetta star erupted.

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Alliance ships being mooring themselves

The Imperial fleet was buffeted by the solar wind, its ships pelted by smaller asteroids and being smashed by larger ones.

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Grillparzer, furthest ahead in the corridor, responded by clustering his fleet together to avoid the asteroids on either side - making his fleet an easier target for Bucock's counterattack.

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The Grillparzer Fleet takes a beating

The Kaiser, frustrated at the waste in combat power, ordered Grillparzer to retreat and thereby drag the enemy out of the corridor once more. Already a difficult maneuver to pull off under such heavy fire, as Grillparzer withdrew, the star erupted again, sending his formation into disarray. The flagship Eistla itself collided with ship debris and suffered some hull damage in the process.

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Grillparzer's flagship suffers damage

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The wreckage of a cruiser collides with a battleship

Grillparzer succeeded in evacuating the corridor and deftly organized his fleet to half-envelop the corridor exit and wait for the Alliance fleet to pursue. However, Bucock - aware of the risk of being annihilated by the much larger Imperial force, did not follow. In the process, the Grillparzer Fleet had suffered 30% losses.

At 1210 hours, Reinhard ordered Grillparzer to withdraw, and contacted Fahrenheit, ordering him to "chase the old tiger out of the cave". To divert Bucock's attention from Fahrenheit's movements, Knappstein was sent into the corridor at 1300 hours.

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The Knappstein Fleet gets a warm welcome

On entry, the fleet was subject to heavy fire, and Knappstein ordered the fleet to stick to the edges of the corridor and avoid clustering together. The Alliance fleet began picking off Knappstein's ships. Observing from the Beowulf, Mittermeyer noted that whilst Knappstein was putting up a good effort, the differnece in experience between him and Bucock was too large to make up.

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Beowulf's tactical display - Alliance fleet in red, Imperial fleet in blue

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A cruiser is hit from all sides

The Kaiser was pleased at Bucock's efforts. Reuenthal agreed, but noted that a fleet would eventually have to be sent as reinforcements - the Eisenach Fleet was dispatched for this purpose, with the specifics left to Reuenthal.

Meanwhile, the Fahrenheit Fleet had completed its long route to the rear of the Alliance Fleet.

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The Fahrneheit Fleet's path

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Asgrim advances into the Alliance rear

On detecting the Alliance fleet, Fahrenheit opened fire and charged.

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Bucock ordered all ships to come about. Prudently, Fahrenheit anticipated Bucock's intention to charge them the moment they entered the corridor. He pulled back at the rear entrance, waiting for Bucock to come out so they could be decimated with zero-distance fire. It was now 1615 hours.

At the other end of the corridor, Knappstein took Bucock's reverse charge as an invitation to take the corridor, and charged forward himself. Again, the Kaiser and Reuenthal correctly anticipated that Bucock would've left behind mines to cover his retreat.

The fleet detected the first cluster of heat-reactive automatic mines, but the halt order came too late - the mines went for the heat of the ship's reverse thrusters, and the resulting explosions only exacerbated the damage.

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A mine dangerously close to a cruiser's thrusters

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Mines activate their engines and burn towards their targets

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Knappstein reacts with dismay

Knappstein ordered an immediate evacuation of the corridor, with his ships laying down a curtain of defensive fire to shoot down incoming mines.

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At the other end of the corridor, Fahrenheit had set up a defensive line by 1620 hours. Opening fire as the Alliance fleet was detected, his fleet opened fire only briefly before it was raked by fire from a detached fleet under Vice Admiral Carlsen.

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The Fahrenheit Fleet opens fire

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Carlsen's flagship Diomedes reveals itself

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Vice Admiral Carlen

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"An ambush? How annoying of them!"

Facing a pincer attack, Fahrenheit pulled straight back in the fleet's 6 o'clock direction so as to deny the Alliance fleet a chance to combine and attack his rear.

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Fahrenheit, caught between Bucock at his fore and Carlsen at his port rear, pulls straight back

As he pulled back, Fahrenheit hoped that Bucock and Carlsen would "cross paths" and fall into disarray as they converged, giving him the opportunity to push forward and destroy both of them. His hopes were dashed as the two fleets crossed paths whilst maintaining order in a clearly planned maneuever - Carlsen advanced along his original path of fire, making for a long round-about course for the rear of the main Imperial fleet, whilst Bucock charged forward to engage Fahrenheit.

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Carlsen's flight path, Fahrenheit and Bucock, Knappstein mired in the corridor, Grillparzer guarding the exit, and the main Imperial force

Reuenthal correctly guessed Bucock's plan, but was not concerned. With "Ironshield" Müller guarding their rear, even if they had a detached force of 20,000 ships (impossible given Alliance strength) he would be able to maintain the battle lines. The Kaiser was more concerned with what Yang Wen-li would do. They agreed that Yang would cut off their return route to Fezzan rather than attacking them directly - but he did not have a large enough force to pull off such a feat, and there had been no report from Steinmetz to that effect. Therefore there was nothing to fear.

Fahrenheit attempted to pursue Carlsen, but Bucock refused to let him go.

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The Rio Grande and a cruiser

In response, Fahrenheit deployed his ships in a line to the right and left, leaving his centre intentionally weak. Bucock took the invitation, penetrating his line in the middle.

By 2030 hours, Carlsen had succeeded in arriving in the Imperial rear - where he was immediately confronted by the Müller Fleet in a concave formation.

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Oh no you don't...

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"Don't let one ship get through!"

Carlsen charged regardless, declaring that even if they all died, they would go down striking a blow against the Kaiser.

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A cruiser goes up, with the Asgrim in the background

The Fahrenheit Fleet had by this time allowed Bucock to penetrate its centre - ignoring them, Fahrenheit moved to attack Carlsen from behind. Tricked, Bucock turned around and began his own pursuit.

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The flagship Parzival receives its baptism of fire

As Carlsen struggled to penetrate Müller's defence, the Fahrenheit Fleet came up behind him, intending to effect a pincer attack. However, with Bucock appearing at his own rear moments later, he had no opportunity to do so. He asked for confirmation of Knappstein's position, hoping that he too could attack and give them an unbeatable advantage. Unfortunately, Knappstein was still mired in the corridor minefield, and had no Seffle particle generators.

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The Ulfrun flounders amongst more mines

With the corridor sealed off, Bucock ceased pursuit of the Fahrenheit Fleet and decided to make for the main Imperial fleet, targeting the Brunhild. With Fahrenheit attempting to destroy Carlsen's force, Carlsen maintained his attack against Müller. Bucock split his fleet so as to pass over and below Fahrenheit, asking Carlsen for support.

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One of Vice Admiral Carlsen's battleships launches missiles

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One of Müller's battleships is winged

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Bucock's thrust

Seeing the danger, Müller ordered his subordinates Rear Admirals Balgi, Shunabel and Hauhild (30% of his fleet) to stop Bucock's move. Blocked from the front, Fahrenheit descended on him from above - Bucock's thrust fell short.

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"We won't let you through!"

However, with Müller's line weakened, Carlsen achieved a breakthrough.

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The Diomedes smashes through

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Kaiser Reinhard waits

Reuenthal gave the intercept order - Carlsen's fleet was small, and could be easily destroyed by concentrated artillery fire. Worse for Carlsen, Müller (from behind) and Fahrenheit (from below) were in pursuit, and his advance was soon halted under a withering cross fire as he was encircled. The proximity of friendly forces however caused all Imperial fleets to tone down their artillery fire - allowing Carlsen to survive longer than he otherwise would have.

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Brunhild, Parzival and Asgrim

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The crossfire

At 2118 hours, a new Imperial fleet of approximately 15,000 ships emerged at Bucock's rear and attacked- it was the Eisenach Fleet, which had completed its long clockwise flanking movement.

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High Admiral Eisenach's flagship, the Vidar

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One of Bucock's battleships is hulled

Bucock ordered their aft defence reinforced so that Eisenach could be drawn in as much as possible- he was holding out for another eruption from the Marr-Adetta star. Eisenach did not take the bait, and ordered his fleet to maintain its distance.

At 2200 hours, the Marr-Adetta star erupted once more as the Alliance Fleet had predicted - the Imperial formation was thrown into disarray, whilst Bucock ordered his fleet to take a conic formation and break through the gaps in the enemy line.

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The Eisenach Fleet is pelted with asteroids

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"Go!"

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"Intercept!"

Fleet Admiral Mittermeyer, waiting to the starboard flank of the Kaiser's fleet, moved to intercept - advancing at full speed to take Bucock in the flank and put his fleet in danger of being split in two. Bucock ignored the danger - his only target was the Brunhild.

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Mittermeyer attacks

With artillery coming close to the supreme flagship, its commanding officer, Commodore Siegbert Seidlitz, asked for permission to pull back. The Kaiser granted his request, but told him not to pull back too far - the Alliance offensive was reaching its limit.

Unable to resist Mittermeyer's attack, Bucock's fleet was cut in two. Bucock's line had become greatly extended. Admiral Chung suggested that they contract the battlefront - resigned to the fact that they would not be able to reach the Kaiser.

At 2250, with the Alliance advance halted once more, Kaiser Reinhard personally ordered concentrated artillery fire on the vanguard of Bucock's fleet. His fleet formation crumbled under the assault, and the Rio Grande, which had already been battered repeatedly throughout the battle, took a hit that injured Admiral Chung.

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Bucock and Chung have a narrow escape

As the Imperial admirals began to savour the moment, Fahrenheit detected the presence of a large number of ships to his rear, closing at high speed. There was an initial fear that it was a detached enemy fleet - but it was the Black Lancers. High Admiral Bittenfeld had rushed to reach the battlefield.

Reuenthal attempted to tell them not to recklessly charge, warning them that Bucock might have a scheme that they couldn't imagine. The Kaiser belayed his order, commenting that if Bittenfeld exercised too much prudence, it would take away from the Black Lancers' strength.

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"Dashing forward like a wild boar is our true strength! Regardless of what scheme or trickery the enemy has, we'll crush them with our power!"

Vice Admiral Carlsen's fleet bore the brunt of his attack. With their missiles and energy expended, Carlsen was resigned to his fate, and spent his final moments reflecting on his life. The Diomedes exploded at 2310.

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"I was able to battle hard enough to come this close to the Kaiser. I've done as much as I could."

At this point in the battle, 80% of the Alliance Fleet had been lost. Fleet Admiral Bucock granted all ships permission to withdraw from the battle front, while advising the Rio Grande's captain, Captain Emerson, that his ship would have to remain behind to assume the rear guard. Despite Bucock's order, multiple ships remained behind to assist.

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Reinhard commented at the Alliance's unwavering spirit, calling them the embodiment of Bucock's own. Hildegard von Mariendorf persuaded the Kaiser to offer Bucock a chance to surrender.

At 2330 hours, the Imperial fleet ceased fire In unison, and Fleet Admiral Mittermeyer made the offer as Reinhard's agent.

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The Rio Grande at the conclusion of the battle

"Attention, opposition admiral. You are completely encircled by our fleet, and your withdrawal route has been sealed off. Any further combat is useless. I urge you to shut down your ship's engines and surrender. Kaiser Reinhard acknowledges your admirable effort in this battle, and will reward you with magnanimous treatment. I urge you once again, to surrender."

Bucock requested communications with the Kaiser, which was granted. He said:-

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"Your majesty, Kaiser Reinhard, please believe I have a great admiration for your talents and greatness. And if I were to have a grandson, I would like to have someone like you. But I cannot be your subordinate. Yang Wen-li, also - he could become your friend, but not your subordinate. Though its someone else's business, I can just about guarantee it. That is to say, if I'm allowed to say important-sounding things, democracy is the philosophy of making friends on equal terms, not of creating master-servant relationships. I want to have good friends, and I want to be a good friend to other people. But I don't want a good master or to be a good servant. That's precisely the reason I have not been able to uphold the same flag as you. Although I appreciate your kindness, I doubt you have any need for an old man like myself."

Admiral Chung then gave a toast to democracy, and the communication was ended. Reuenthal gave the signal for fire to recommence, and the remnants of the Alliance fleet were wiped out.

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The Rio Grande is destroyed as Bucock takes his last drink

Aftermath

The Alliance fleet had effectively ceased to exist - those ships that escaped the battle were expected by Bucock to join Yang Wen-li.

Even with the Alliance holding geographical advantage, Kaiser Reinhard had not expected such a chaotic battle given his enormous numerical superiority. All fleets reorganized their formation and resumed their march to the Barlat system to take Heinessen. Whilst leaving the battlefield, all officers and soldiers were ordered by the Kaiser to stand up and salute Fleet Admiral Bucock.

Three hours later, however, the Imperial fleet learned of the fall of Iserlohn Fortress.

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Steinmetz and Lutz after giving their report

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Reinhard smashes his wine glass in fury

High Admiral Bittenfeld found the change in mood amongst his associates inappropriate, noting that it was only one defeat, and that their entire battle advantage had not slipped away. Fahrenheit disagreed, noting that the strategic factors differed immensely if they did not hold Iserlohn - and that aiming for that, the entire battle at Marr-Adetta had been a diversion so that Yang could capture Iserlohn.

Hildegard von Mariendorf dismissed that theory. If it had been a coordinated plan, then Bucock would have assumed the role of capturing Iserlohn, whilst Yang fought the Kaiser - it had not been necessary for Yang to personally direct the tactics that took Iserlohn, whilst only Yang could face the Kaiser in battle and stand more than a "1 in 10,000" chance. Further, Bucock's death in battle would be an unbearable loss for Yang, and his sacrifice did not suit Yang's personality.

Reinhard told Lutz he would notify him of his punishment later, and put him on administrative leave. His orders for the capture of Heinessen stood- Yang's military magic could not be allowed to coordinate with political power. On Hildegard's advice, all fleets were ordered to resume their course without hurrying - the mere approach of the Imperial fleet would be enough to topple the Alliance government without Reinhard having to dirty his hands. It was 17 January 800.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by drakensis »

Just to repeat a former formating request:
There are cases where you have several images lined up left to right because you haven't put a paragraph break between them. This stretches the post considerably beyond my screen, so I have to scroll left and right with every line of text, breaking the flow. Putting paragraph breaks between images would avoid that.

Otherwise, great write up of Bucock's last and perhaps finest battle.
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