Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

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Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles (Spoilers)

Post by Vympel » 2010-09-13 05:38am

I was bored yesterday so I thought I'd occupy myself with writing a Wikipedia style entry for each of the many battles of Legend of the Galactic Heroes, with screenshots. I did this first of all because I thought it'd be neat, since the show lends itself very well to this sort of trivial pursuit, and also I thought it might be a bonus if people who had never seen the show but might be into it if they knew what it was like and had a feel for the sort of thing that goes on in the major battle episodes.

I thought it might also provoke some discussion from other LOGH fans so I might edit it as well.

This first one took me quite a while - its the first battle of the series, and whilst it was originally covered in the first two episodes of the show when it first aired, it was "remade" in more detailed, movie form in 1993 as Overture to a New War. I've treated that version as 'canon', since the two do conflict on some points, although only one of them is major (and I don't go into it here, since it involves characters). That said, for anyone who plans to watch the show, you should start with My Conquest is a Sea of Stars, which was the pilot movie for the series (and covers the Fourth Battle of Tiamat), then Overture to a New War which picks up right where it left off. You can then skip the first two episodes of the series if you like and go from episode three.

Although it's out of order, I'll probably cover the Fourth Battle of Tiamat in the next entry.

The Battle of the Astarte System

The Battle of the Astarte System in Space Year 796 (Imperial Year 487) was fought between a fleet of the Galactic Empire, under the command of High Admiral (and Count) Reinhard von Lohengramm, and the forces of the Free Planets Alliance.

Background

Fresh from his victory at the Fourth Battle of Tiamat, Count Lohengramm, unpopular with the court nobles of the Galactic Empire for his battlefield success, youth, and favor with Kaiser Freidrich IV, was sent on a military expedition against the Free Planets Alliance, contrived by Duke Braunschweig and his nephew, Baron Flegel, with the intent of having Count Lohengramm die in battle against overwhelming odds.

Duke Braunschwieig and Baron Flegel conspired to bring this about in two ways:-

a) By depriving Count Lohengramm of his trusted staff officers – in particular, Rear Admirals Wolfgang Mittermeyer and Oskar von Reuenthal (commanders of the wings of Reinhard’s fleet in the previous battle), his chief of staff, Commodore Ernest Mecklinger, and even the captain of his flagship, Captain Karl Robert Steinmetz.

The heads of the Imperial Fleet (Fleet Admirals Mückenberger, Ehrenberg, and Steinhof) agreed to do so, justifying their actions that depriving him of his officers would ‘test his real talents’.

Reinhard was angry at the obvious attempt to ‘pluck off his limbs’, but was also relieved – they had failed to transfer his trusted 2nd, Captain Siegfried Kircheis.

In the place of Reinhard’s trusted officers were:-

• Admiral Merkatz;
• Vice Admiral Staden;
• Rear Admiral Erlache;
• Rear Admiral Fogel; and
• Rear Admiral Fahrenheit.

Whilst Admiral Merkatz was a competent commander with considerable battlefield experience, his advanced age made it obvious that he was chosen so that Count Lohengramm would have difficulty dealing with him. The other personnel assignments were obviously intended to rid the Imperial Fleet of ‘problems’.

b) By leaking details of the planned expedition to the autonomous Dominion of Fezzan, on the basis that they would sell the information onto the Free Planets Alliance, who would meet the expedition with overwhelming force.

Fezzan had no compunctions about selling the information. Given the Empire’s decisive victory in the last engagement, the Fezzani Landsherr, Adrian Rubinsky, decided that allowing the Free Planets Alliance certain victory would keep the balance of power in place.

Opposing Forces

Galactic Empire

Count Lohengramm’s force consisted of 20,000 ships, under the command of his supreme flagship, the Brunhild.

Image
The Brunhild, or 'the white ship' as she was known to the Alliance at the time.

Free Planets Alliance

National Defense Chairman, Job Trunicht, in possession of the information on the Imperial attack, directed the Alliance fleet to meet the attack with 40,000 ships, split into three fleets:-

a) The 2nd Fleet, numbering 15,000 ships, under Admiral Paetta aboard the flagship Patroclus;

Image
The Patroclus

b) The 4th Fleet, numbering 12,000 ships, under Vice Admiral Pastolle aboard the flagship Leonidas and

Image
The Leonidas

c) The 6th Fleet, numbering 13,000 ships, under Vice Admiral Moore aboard the flagship Pergamon.

Image
The Pergamon

Preparations for Battle

Free Planets of Alliance

The three fleets would intercept Lohengramm’s fleet from three separate directions, forming a ‘perfect envelopment’ and destroying Lohengramm’s fleet in the process. This was a replica of the strategy used in the historic Battle of the Dagon System, where the Alliance under High Admirals Lin Pao and Yūsuf Topparol had similarly gained a perfect victory.

Image
Alliance battleships at the Battle of the Dagon System

Image
The grand encirclement at Dagon

Image
The annihilation of the Imperial Fleet, under Grand Duke Herbert

The 4th fleet would deploy to the centre, the 6th fleet to the right, and the 2nd fleet to the left (from the perspective of the Imperial fleet).

Galactic Empire

Count Lohengramm had already anticipated the Alliance plan of attack. This was confirmed by scouting forces.

The five admirals under Lohengramm's command voiced their concerns that they were in an extremely disadvantageous situation, and that they should retreat.

These concerns were dismissed out of hand – Reinhard noted that they were not, in fact, outnumbered by the enemy – but that each enemy fleet was inferior in numbers to their own.

Therefore, they would simply move the battlefield as required, and attack each Alliance fleet in turn (starting with the 4th Fleet to the front), on the basis that, due to their central position, they could attack and annihilate each fleet in turn, faster than they could hope to combine.

“In the end, our fleet is in a superior position to the enemy, both in concentration and mobility. What can this be called, if not the conditions for victory?!” – Count Lohengramm

Image
Count Lohengramm explains his plan to a skeptical Staden

Of the five admirals, only Rear Admiral Fahrenheit was satisfied. But they had no choice but to obey Lohengramm’s orders. To prevent his plans being ruined by sabotage or poor performance by the dissatisfied officers, Lohengramm agreed with Kircheis that Rear Admiral Fahrenheit should be placed in the vanguard.

Image
Rear Admiral Fahrenheit looks on Lohengramm’s plan with approval

The contingency plan of Commodore Yang Wen-li

Aboard the 2nd fleet flagship, Commodore Yang Wen-li, a staff officer, presented an alternate plan that was far more conservative than the Alliance plan for ‘perfect victory’. It was rejected by Admiral Paetta on the basis that, even though it was hard to beat strategically, it was overly conservative and cautious, and would merely ensure that the Alliance would not be defeated, rather than guarantee the annihilation of the enemy.

The battle with the 4th Fleet

Alliance reconnaissance advised Admiral Paetta that the Imperial fleet was not at the expected coordinates, and was advancing rapidly on the 4th Fleet. The development was met with disbelief. Refusing to believe what was right in front of him, Pastolle wasted time arguing with his staff officers before sending an urgent message to the 2nd and 6th fleets for assistance. The message was jammed.

Image

“You damned incompetent, you’ve reacted too late.” – Count Lohengramm

The Imperial vanguard under Rear Admiral Fahrenheit fired the first shots of the battle. Taken by complete surprise, Imperial Valkyrie fighters were already wreaking havoc amongst the Alliance capital ships before their own Spartanian fighters could be launched.

Image
Rear Admiral Fahrenheit's flagship Darmstadt launches Valkyries

Image
Valkyrie fighter attackp

Vice Admiral Pastolle ordered an immediate launch, but to no avail – the majority of the fleet’s Spartanian fighters were destroyed whilst docked on their carriers.

Image
Image
An Alliance carrier is destroyed, with its full fighter complement.

Admiral Merkatz’s forces also made a substantial contribution by the deft employment of a ‘blitzkrieg group’ consisting of small gunships. Under no danger of fighter attack, the gunships also exacted a punishing toll.

Image
Merkatz's flagship, the Nördlingen

Image
Imperial gunships advance

Image
Rear Admiral Fogel's flagship Watzmann charges

Soon, the flagship was hulled near the bridge. Vice Admiral Pastolle was pulled into the vacuum of space shortly before the Leonidas exploded, and organized resistance ceased.

Image
Vice Admiral Pastolle is sucked into space

Image
The Leonidas breaks up

Victorious, Count Lohengramm gave orders that the fleet would advance, changing course clockwise, and attack the right flank of the 6th fleet. Staden, Erlache and Fogel comforted themselves on the Augsburg, Vice Admiral Staden's flagship:-

Image
The Augsburg

Image
Fogel speaks his mind

Admiral Paetta’s decision

Admiral Paetta had received sporadic battle reports through Imperial jamming, before a loss of communications. Unable to contact the 4th Fleet, Admiral Paetta asked what Commodore Yang thought of the situation.

Yang correctly summarized Count Lohengramm’s plan. Yang argued that the 4th Fleet was certainly already defeated, and that they should move immediately to join up with the 6th fleet, face the enemy with a combined total of 28,000 ships, and thereby be in a position to fight on more advantageous terms.

Admiral Paetta did not take Yang’s advice. Unwilling to believe Vice Admiral Pastolle, a veteran of 100 battles, would be so easily defeated by someone as ‘young and inexperienced’ as Count Lohengramm, he decided to move to assist the 4th fleet rather than attempt to navigate the quicker route to the 6th.

Battle with the 6th Fleet

Four hours after the defeat of the Alliance’s 4th fleet, the Imperial fleet made contact with the 6th Fleet. The first Imperial ship was spotted at the rear of the fleet, whilst the command staff was having a meal.

Refusing to believe the enemy had moved the battlefield, the first shots impacted the flagship before Moore had an opportunity to arrive on the bridge.

Image
Vice Admiral Moore is caught in the elevator.

Taking substantial losses from the attack to their rear, the 6th Fleet’s ranks promptly crumbled.

Admiral Merkatz, proving his worth again, ordered his forces to switch to short-range battle and break through the enemy formation.

Vice Admiral Moore ordered a reverse course change in response. The orders did nothing but cause confusion and heighten casualties.

Amidst the carnage, Valkyrie fighters assaulted the Pergamon, inflicting heavy damage especially to the ship's reactor.

Image
The Pergamon is strafed.

Once more, the Alliance had been caught unawares, and Spartanian fighters were still aboard their carriers. Again, they were mostly destroyed before they could launch.

At this stage, Siegfried Kircheis suggested to Count Lohengramm that they offer the 6th fleet a chance to surrender. Count Lohengramm agreed.

An Imperial battleship sent a luminous signal as follows to the Pergamon:-

Image
“Your ship is completely surrounded. There is no path of escape. Surrender. We promise lenient treatment.”

Enraged and unwilling to accept the disgrace, Vice Admiral Moore instead decided on a final charge.

Surrounded by Imperial ships, the Pergamon was promptly destroyed.

ImageImage
Pergamon is destroyed.

Battle with the 2nd Fleet

The Imperial fleet attacked the 2nd fleet from the 1:20 direction. In the first seconds of the battle, the Patroclus was hit near the bridge. Admiral Paetta, wounded by falling debris, turned over command to Commodore Yang, the highest ranking uninjured officer, before falling unconscious.

Image
“By the Commander’s orders, I am taking over command of the fleet. Don’t worry, if you follow my orders, we’ll be saved … We’re losing at present, but the essential thing is that we should win at the last moment. We won’t lose.”

Yang gave orders for each ship to concentrate on individual bombardment until he issued further orders. Lohengramm, listening in, was amused. In response, Lohengramm ordered his fleet to take a spindle formation, with the intent of breaking through the centre of the Alliance formation.

Anticipating this, Yang had already made inputs to the fleet’s strategic computers, with the intent that on giving the order “open the C-4 circuits on the ship’s strategic computer”, the 2nd fleet could take the appropriate countermeasure. Even if the Imperial fleet intercepted the message, they would not be able to decipher it.

The order was transmitted as soon as the Imperial fleet charged. In the midst of the melee, the Alliance fleet gave way on both sides, allowing the Imperial fleet to pass through the centre, and reforming behind the Imperial fleet, with the intent of attacking their rear. The Imperial fleet’s breakthrough tactic had been turned around against them.

Image
The Alliance tactical display shows the situation as Lohengramm charges

Image
The Imperial display shows Yang’s fleet giving way

Image
The situation is reversed

Image
Patroclus has a close encounter with the Battleship Kärnten

After overcoming his surprise, Lohengramm quickly recovered. Refusing to be an “imbecile”, Count Lohengramm ordered the fleet to continue advancing, clockwise, with the intent of turning on the enemy’s rear, rather than reverse course and cause a debacle through confusion.

Rear Admiral Erlache, intent on obtaining a personal achievement, scoffed at the orders, and ordered a rapid reverse course change. Before his battleship Heidenheim could finish its turn, she was destroyed by a close-by Alliance ship.

Image
The Heidenheim

Image Image

“He got what he deserved.” – Count Lohengramm

The battle then devolved into a highly unconventional formation, with both fleets elongating out into an enormous ring, like the heads of two snakes trying to devour each other’s tails.

Image
Image
The awkward battlefield.

Image

Recognizing the battle had devolved into a battle of attrition, with neither side capable of achieving a clear victory, both Commodore Yang and Count Lohengramm decided to break off the battle as pointless.

“Expressing respect for your brave fight; your health until the day we fight again.” – Count Lohengramm, message sent to Commodore Yang after the battle.

“He means “The next time we meet, I’ll smash you to bits.” – Commdore Yang.

Aftermath

Casualties

The Imperial fleet suffered 150,000 casualties.

The Alliance fleet suffered 1,500,000 casualties.

The battle cemented both Count Lohengramm and Yang Wen-li’s reputations as masterful commanders. Upon his return Count Lohengramm was immediately promoted to the rank of Fleet Admiral, and was given his own Admiralty, where he promptly began gathering young talent around him to support him in future battles. He arranged for Kircheis to be promoted to the rank of Rear Admiral.

Image
Lohengramm takes up his promotion as Fleet Admiral

Image
Reinhard’s Admiralty

Commodore Yang Wen-li was promoted to the rank of Read Admiral and appointed commander of the newly created 13th Fleet – its first task, the capture of Iserlohn Fortress.

Image
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Commander 598 » 2010-09-13 10:02am

Pretty sure it's Astarte. :P

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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Vympel » 2010-09-13 10:20am

Commander 598 wrote:Pretty sure it's Astarte. :P
LOGH has weird spelling. :)
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Koolaidkirby » 2010-09-13 04:01pm

awesome write up, I loved LotGH.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by takemeout_totheblack » 2010-09-13 08:32pm

The one thing I truly love about LotGH is its space battles, not only are they cool but they are well thought out, intelligent, and actually resemble realistic military strategy adapted to suit technological limitations. Too often mainstream scifi goes for the quick and flashy Gaggle 'O' Ships Shootin' Shit tactic, rather than show us a long but action packed series of attacks that result in victory through strategy, tactics, and management of forces.

It's a crime that LotGH doesn't get the publicity it deserves, this series should be neck in neck with SW and ST as a heavy hitter of scifi!
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Uraniun235 » 2010-09-14 02:27am

Vympel wrote:Image
This is a great moment. The voice actor does a good job at conveying Reinhard's indignation at being led around in such an absurd dance, but what really seals the deal is how they timed the music to climax at just that point to complement the line.

If Reinhard were less refined, he would probably instead be saying something like "what the fuck is this bullshit?!"
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Ford Prefect » 2010-09-14 03:30am

'What an awkward formation!' is probably the beginning of the 'Legend of the Galactic Heroes has the best dialogue' thing. :)
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Highlord Laan » 2010-09-14 05:07pm

Is there anywhere to get this on DvD in the US? From what I've read of it, I'd love this show.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Gunhead » 2010-09-14 05:12pm

Highlord Laan wrote:Is there anywhere to get this on DvD in the US? From what I've read of it, I'd love this show.
Far as I can tell no. There is a fansub of all the episodes but no official release. Vympel if you need a hand in analyzing some of the battles, let me know, I'll see what I can do.

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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Ford Prefect » 2010-09-14 05:22pm

Highlord Laan wrote:Is there anywhere to get this on DvD in the US? From what I've read of it, I'd love this show.
You could get it on DVD, but unless you have a strong command of the Japanese language it won't be all that useful to you. It's never been localised, and it probably never will. Also it would be really expensive. :)
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Vympel » 2010-09-14 09:46pm

Is there anywhere to get this on DvD in the US? From what I've read of it, I'd love this show.
There's no way to see the show legitimately on DVD (or Blu-Ray, which has been released) unless you're fluent in Japanese :(. [Central Anime] has done a complete fansub of the show on laserdisc, which is how I saw the series - whoever does it has apparently gotten their hands on the DVD from Japan and are currently working on fansubbing them, because episodes 1-42 of the show (there are 110 episodes of the main show) together with the two films have been ripped from DVD and are available from certain places (clearly labelled). I'd recommend getting the DVD version because it looks way better than laserdisc, I'm replacing it as the DVD episodes are released.

I'll PM you the relevant details tonight.

And don't watch it on youtube, shitload of detail is lost and the show looks way worse than it really does (which is pretty damn good, given its 1980s-1990s).
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Sarevok » 2010-09-15 06:02am

@Vympel

Would you recommend this show to someone who normally does not like anime ?
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Ford Prefect » 2010-09-15 06:31am

Sarevok wrote:Would you recommend this show to someone who normally does not like anime ?
Vympel likes two animated shows made in Japan, this is one of them.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Gunhead » 2010-09-15 08:25am

Sarevok wrote:@Vympel

Would you recommend this show to someone who normally does not like anime ?
If there is one scifi anime series in the world you should watch and like, this is the one. If you like space battles with politics mixed in, then LoGH is highly recommended. It doesn't contain magic, giant robots or mecha in space, schoolgirls fighting space monsters, ancient mysterious super weapons only person x can power/control etc, aliens or annoying cutesy furry things that talk.

It does contain huge fleets, political backstabbing and space battles and a such a load of other goodness that it would be pointless to list them all here. So go get it already and enjoy.

:P

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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Vympel » 2010-09-15 09:31am

^ What they said. I'd recommend this show to anyone.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Uraniun235 » 2010-09-15 10:05pm

Since this is the current active LOGH thread, I thought I'd post it here: I just noticed that in the scene where Spoiler
Admiral Yang destroys the Artemis Necklace
, as the camera follows the Bussard ramjet ice missiles, the starfield behind them is all tinged red. They actually went to the bother of showing the redshift effect! Now that's some sci-fi attention to detail. :)
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Vympel » 2010-09-15 11:55pm

as the camera follows the Bussard ramjet ice missiles, the starfield behind them is all tinged red. They actually went to the bother of showing the redshift
That's awesome. Never noticed that.

I'll probably be finished with Fourth Battle of Tiamat (including the preliminary clash at Legnica) by tonight or tomorrow depending on how busy I am. Then I'll get into the series proper - and I'll have to put spoilers tags in the title because anyone who wants to watch the show isn't going to want all the battles / plot spoiled!
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Vympel » 2010-09-16 07:38am

Note for the uninitiated that this battle takes place before the Battle of Astarte (and was the pilot for the series). I really should've posted this first, but oh well.

The Fourth Battle of Tiamat

The Fourth Battle of Tiamat was fought in the closing months of Space Year 795 (Imperial Year 486) between the Galactic Empire and the Free Planets of Alliance, in the Tiamat system. It was Reinhard von Müsel's first battle as a full Admiral, seeing him command a full-strength expeditionary fleet.

Background

Admiral Reinhard von Müsel was a rising star in the Imperial fleet. Despite his numerous battlefield achievements, that he had been promoted to such a high station and was commanding a full fleet when not even 20 years old was a source of much discontent amongst the old-guard military brass and the nobility of the Empire at large.

The perception that Reinhard had risen to such high station purely because of Kaiser Friedrick IV’s relationship with Reinhard’s sister, the Countess Annerose Grünewald, was unshakable.

Directed to lead his expeditionary fleet to Iserlohn Fortress, the front line of the 150 year long war between the Empire and the Alliance, it was resolved by Fleet Admiral Mückenburger and Baron Flegel on Iserlohn fortress that he should be eliminated.

Image
Admiral Reinhard von Müsel’s new flagship, the Brunhild

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Rear Admiral Reuenthal's flagship Morholt, with Rear Admiral Mittermeyer's flagship Grendel

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Reinhard von Müsel, flanked by Commander Siegfried Kircheis and Commodore Ernest Mecklinger, with Captain Steinmetz in command of the vessel

Preliminary skirmish at planet Legnica

With possible Alliance fleet activity detected at the nearby gas giant known as Legnica, Fleet Admiral Mückenburger decided the time was ripe to throw Reinhard von Müsel into battle (and hopefully be rid of him). Irrespective of Iserlohn having an intercept fleet for the purpose, Mückenburger issued orders for Müsel’s expeditionary fleet to deal with the situation.

Image
Fleet Admiral Mückenburger ignores Paul von Oberstein’s objections

Image
”It’s best to get rid of an uninvited guest before he arrives.”

Planet Legnica’s atmosphere was composed of helium and hydrogen, with atmospheric wind speed of approximately 2,000km/h, rendering any radar or tracking device almost useless.

Reinhard directed his fleet into the planet’s upper atmosphere to search for the enemy.

The Alliance fleet opposing him was the 2nd Fleet, commanded by Admiral Paetta aboard the flagship Patroclus. Their mission was to evade detection by the enemy, approach Iserlohn Fortress, and attack – part of a greater attack to be launched by additional Alliance fleets shortly.

Admiral Paetta was eager for battle. Commodore Yang Wen-li, Operations Advisor, questioned the need to engage the enemy fleet given their mission. His advice was ignored, and the fleet was ordered to rise above the clouds and scan for the enemy fleet.

Image
Self-explanatory, really.

Contact with Müsel’s fleet was quickly established. At the forefront of their respective forces, Patroclus and Brunhild clashed head-on and passed each other by a distance of mere metres.

Image
The soon-to-be-famous Brunhild fires its cannons in anger for the first time

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Patroclus returns fire

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Brunhild gets up close and personal

The exchange of fire was inconclusive, with the Brunhild emerging unscathed whilst the Patroclus suffered only superficial damage. Admiral von Müsel’s orders to the fleet were simple – each ship was to continue fighting on its own initiative.

Paetta, aware that the 2nd Fleet greatly outnumbered the enemy, was eager for a victory, and ordered a vigorous attack. More puzzling to him was why the Imperial fleet was not attacking more forcefully.

Reinhard’s plan came into focus shortly. As the weapons fire between the fleets caused the atmosphere’s temperature to rise, the chances of a sudden updraft rapidly increased. The winds stopped briefly – whereupon Reinhard ordered his fleet to rapidly ascend.

Before Paetta could react, a strong wind with velocities of 6,000km/h picked up and threw the 2nd Fleet into disarray. Collisions and general chaos were the result.

Commodore Yang, realizing the imminent danger given the planet’s helium and hydrogen atmosphere, recommended that the fleet immediately ascend, and accept the casualties that would result during the ascent. Paetta preferred to move the fleet out of the winds, but stay within the atmosphere, and dismissed Yang, calling him a ‘pest’.

Yang’s fears were immediately realized – Reinhard gave orders for the Brunhild to fire a nuclear fusion missile. The missile ignited a volatile pocket of Legnica’s atmosphere and created a massive explosion which gutted the 2nd Fleet’s formation. Only quick action by Commodore Yang and his compatriot, Lieutenant Commander Dusty Attenborough (who grabbed the ascent controls by ‘accident’) saved the Patroclus itself from destruction.

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The 2nd Fleet burns

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Patroclus, safe

Suffering heavy casualties, a stunned Admiral Paetta ordered an immediate retreat.

The Expeditionary Fleet resumed course to Iserlohn Fortress in triumph, having suffered minimal damage. Unable to think of any more reasons to refuse him entry, Mückenburger gained a small measure of satisfaction by dismissing Reinhard’s victory as being mere luck - a result of favorable weather.

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Docking at Iserlohn.

On the Alliance side, Vice Admiral Paetta argued that he did not believe that they had made any mistakes in relation to operational planning, and therefore the planned attack on Iserlohn should continue. In essence, the Alliance decided they lost because of the weather.

The Fourth Battle of Tiamat

Opposing Forces

Galactic Empire

The Imperial fleet consisted of Iserlohn’s entire garrison and attached forces, including Admiral von Müsel’s expeditionary fleet (with Vice Admirals Wolfgang Mittermeyer and Oskar von Reuenthal under his command), under the overall command of Fleet Admiral Mückenburger.

Free Planets Alliance

The Alliance deployed a fleet of roughly equal size, under the command of Fleet Admiral Lassalle Lobos aboard the flagship Ajax.

Preparations for Battle

Fleet Admiral Mückenburger determined that all ships would launch and destroy the enemy – and that Admiral von Müsel’s Expeditionary Fleet should form the left wing of the fleet – traditionally the most important wing for attacking. Imperial officers were puzzled at the choice. Reinhard gladly accepted the assignment.

The next day, the Imperial fleet set out. On detection of the Alliance Fleet, Mückenburger gave orders for the left wing to advance – unsupported.

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The two fleets

Reinhard had expected this turn of the events, as had Siegfried Kircheis – and had planned accordingly to save his fleet.

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The left wing advances

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”As expected, the Fleet Commander is planning to sacrifice us.”

For its part, the Alliance watched the unsupported advance of the left wing with disbelief. Only Commodore Yang correctly surmised that the Imperial Command was trying to get rid of him.

Fleet Admiral Lobos gave the order to aim at the advancing fleet. At the same time, Fleet Admiral Mückenburger ordered that they should fire as soon as the enemy is in range – and that the left wing being caught in the cross-fire was of no concern.

Admiral Müsel did not stop. Right before the enemy fleets were within firing range of each other, he ordered all ships to turn to starboard.

Both the Imperial and Alliance fleets watched, stunned, as Müsel’s fleet exposed its flanks to the enemy, and crossed the space between the opposing fleets.

The entire Alliance fleet did nothing – despite Commodore Yang’s urging that they attack.

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Paetta gets it wrong, again.

Too late, Müsel’s fleet ended up on the Alliance fleet’s port flank. Paetta ordered a turn to port in response – too late, as the rest of the Imperial fleet was now at close range, and battle was joined in a brute force, head on engagement.

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The Patroclus and Alliance battleships open fire

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Patroclus' shields

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Imperial cruisers in combat

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An Alliance cruiser is destroyed

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Mückenburger's flagship, the Wilhelmina

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Wilhelmina loses an escort

Meanwhile, Reinhard stayed above the fray, waiting. He vowed never to risk his fleet in such a brazen manner again.

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The Ajax, the overall Alliance flagship

With the Alliance command staff meeting on the Ajax 6 hours into the battle, Admiral Greenhill reported that their fleet had lost 18,651 ships and 2,280,000 men.

Whilst Alliance casualties in both ships and men were lower than those of the Empire, the enemy still had an undamaged fleet – and if it attacked, they would be wiped out.

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Fleet Admiral Lobos displaying 20/20 hindsight

Fleet Admiral Mückenburger meanwhile refused to ask Admiral Müsel for assistance, declaring that “Imperial officers don’t ask for help from expendable forces” – even if they only outnumbered the Alliance with the assistance of Müsel.

Reinhard was also weighing his options. Realising he would be hated by his superior officers whether he decided to help or not, Kircheis noted that irrespective of his petty superiors, his actions would save the lives of millions of Imperial soldiers.

Reinhard commenced his attack, tearing up the Alliance fleet’s flank.

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Realising the danger, Admiral Greenhill proposed that a small decoy fleet penetrate the enemy fleet, pretending to attack Iserlohn Fortress, whilst the main fleet escaped.

Knowing that said fleet would almost certainly be destroyed in the process, no one in the Alliance staff took up the task – except for Commodore Yang.

Commodore Yang departed aboard the battleship Ulysses – with a crew of three people, accompanied by a few unmanned cruisers, operated only by remote control.

Yang's group penetrated the Imperial fleet’s zone of control, and launched decoys that made it appear as though 8,000 ships had suddenly appeared behind the Imperial fleet.

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The battleship Ulysses departs

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Launch of the decoys

All but Admiral Müsel and his staff were fooled. Mückenburger ordered an immediate retreat to defend the fortress. The Alliance fleet began a fighting retreat, taking the opportunity to maul the main Imperial fleet as it moved backwards.

Musel called on Rear Admiral Mittermeyer – who had already dispatched 12 fast battleships to deal with the decoy.

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Rear Admiral Mittermeyer has the situation well in hand.

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The fast battleships attack

Meanwhile, Müsel notified the main fleet that there was no need to retreat. Its morale back up, the Imperial fleet moved forward again to finish off the enemy.

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Reinhard and Kircheis, Mittermeyer, and Reuenthal savor the moment from their respective flagships

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Lobos feels the pressure.

With defeat imminent and Fleet Admiral Lobos resigned to his fate, the Ulysses (which had escaped the destruction of the decoys) sped in from the rear of the Imperial fleet and lodged itself firmly under the Brunhild in the middle of the battle.

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Yang gazes up at the Goldenbaum dynasty crest

Yang had correctly guessed that the commander of the white ship was important.

The entire battlefield went silent – Lobos knew that if they destroyed the Brunhild, they would be slaughtered by the enemy counterattack. And whilst orchestrating Müsel’s valiant death in battle was one thing, Mückenburger knew deliberately killing the brother of the Kaiser’s favorite concubine was quite another.

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The Müsel Fleet, following the Brunhild, passed silently through the Alliance fleet, hostage.

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It was more than Reinhard could stand. He decided he would give up his life before the victory, and gave the order for Brunhild to fire.

Captain Steinmetz objected- the command of the Brunhild itself was his responsibility alone, and Musel’s responsibilities were to the fleet.

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Steinmetz reasons with Reinhard.

Smiling, he agreed, and promised never to interfere with Steinmetz’s command again.

The Alliance fleet made good its retreat, and the Ulysses removed itself from the Brunhild’s stomach.

Reinhard did not pursue the enemy – the battle was over.

Back at Iserlohn Fortress, Fleet Admiral Mückenburger had changed his mind about Reinhard, and commended him for his actions:-

”Not only did you save the Imperial Fleet from a disastrous situation, but, due to your actions on the enemy flank, you brought us almost total victory.”

Aftermath

The Fourth Battle of Tiamat was an Imperial victory, but the Alliance fleet had escaped annihilation.

More important was its effect on Reinhard von Müsel’s career – he was promoted to High Admiral and was elevated to the Lohengramm Countship – a long dormant one in the Imperial court. Henceforth he would be known as Reinhard von Lohengramm.

Further, though he was still seen as a ‘conceited blonde brat’ by the Imperial nobility, he was no longer ‘the Admiral in the skirt’ - an insult derived from his relationship with the Kaiser’s favorite concubine.

Commodore Yang Wenli was not promoted.

Reinhard and Yang also learned each other’s names after the battle.

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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Vympel » 2010-09-16 09:51am

EDIT: had to do some digging on Siegfried Kircheis rank. Reinhard remarks in Overture that after the battle Kircheis will be promoted to Commodore, but it's not stated what rank he is.

Watching Season 1 of the Gaiden, the Dishonor 4-episode arc, its revealed that before Overture he was a Commander and that he would soon be promoted to Captain. On that basis I've assumed that Kircheis was a Commander at Tiamat and was promoted to Captain before Astarte, with Commodore obviously being the next rank.

EDIT 2: After Astarte he was promoted to Rear Admiral by Reinhard.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Vympel » 2010-09-25 03:29am

This is the first FPA vs Imperial battle of the series after Astarte. I have skipped the Castrop Rebellion (Episode 05), where Siegfried Kircheis was promoted from Rear Admiral to Vice Admiral for the bloodless subjugation of the rebellion, because its not really a battle. The events indicated here taken place from Episodes 06 to 08 of the main series.

Seventh Battle of Iserlohn

The Seventh Battle of Iserlohn was fought by the newly formed 13th fleet in an attempt to capture Iserlohn Fortress from the Empire in Space Year 796 (Imperial Year 487).

Background

In the aftermath of the Battle of Astarte, Commodore Yang Wenli was promoted to Rear Admiral and given command of the newly created 13th Fleet by Fleet Admiral Sidney Sitolet, Commander in Chief of the Alliance fleet, and tasked with the capture of Iserlohn Fortress.

Iserlohn Fortress was the Empire’s impregnable fortress, astride one of only two navigable routes linking the territory of the Free Planets Alliance and the Galactic Empire (the other being Fezzan). Guarding Imperial territory, it had prevented the invasion of Imperial territory by the Alliance for a quarter of a century.

Six times in 25 years, the Alliance had deployed massive fleets in an attempt to take the fortress, all ending in abject failure, in large part due to Iserlohn’s enormous main weapon, the Thor Hammer, capable of wiping out thousands of ships in seconds.

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The Thor Hammer

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Fleet Admiral Sitolet

Command of an entire fleet was normally a post for a Vice Admiral, however in this case, the 13th Fleet was a scratch unit of survivors of Astarte with new recruits - about half the size of a usual fleet.

Yang had been suffering through a relatively stagnant career in the Alliance fleet since he distinguished himself at the evacuation of El Facil almost ten years prior. Prior to the Battle of Astarte, he had gone from ‘the Hero of El Facil’ (as he was still popularly known in the Alliance media) to ‘Good for Nothing Yang’ amongst the Alliance brass. Strained relations with Secretary of Defense Job Trunicht did not help his situation.

However, his distinguished action in saving the 2nd Fleet at Astarte had brought his skills to the attention of Fleet Admiral Sitolet – he reasoned that if Yang could accomplish the task with such a small fleet, even Trunicht couldn’t ignore Yang’s talents any longer.

Fleet Admiral Sitolet had political motivations for the appointment as well. He did not get along with Trunicht, and given the disastrous defeat at Astarte, he feared he would be forced to retire at the next election, with Trunicht’s influence increasing as a result. Therefore he would count on Yang winning a stunning victory to keep himself in play.

As for the soldiers of the new fleet, they were skeptical of Yang’s talents – but he quickly won them over with his no-nonsense style. At the 13th Fleet formation ceremony, his eminently sensible request that “let’s fight so we don’t die” was met with enthusiastic applause.

Personally, Yang had his own reasons for accepting the task – with Iserlohn Fortress in the hands of the Alliance, the Alliance would gain a strategic advantage, a satisfactory peace treaty could be concluded, and Yang could retire at 30 with a pension and retirement disbursement, and return to the study of history.

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Yang accepts the task

Opposing Forces

Galactic Empire

Iserlohn Fortress was commanded by two commanders. Admiral Thoma von Stockhausen, Fortress commander, and Admiral Hans Dietrich von Seeckt, commander of the Iserlohn Fleet of 15,000 ships.

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The two commanders despised each other, disagreeing about everything, and competed for glory during Alliance attacks.

Free Planets Alliance

Rear Admiral Yang’s fleet was a half-strength ‘hodge podge’ fleet of only 6,400 ships and 700,000 men, led by his new flagship, the Hyperion.

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Our first look at the flagship Hyperion

In addition, Yang had recruited the services of the Rosen Ritter regiment (Knights of the Rose), under the command of Walter von Schönkopf. The Rosen Ritter were a close combat unit formed from the children of Imperial exiles, with a reputation for being difficult to command, yet excellent in battle.

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In addition, Yang requisitioned from Rear Admiral Alex Cazerne (one of the Alliance fleet’s head logisticians) an Imperial ship (spoils from earlier battles) – and 200 Imperial fleet uniforms.

Requesting a brilliant young officer as an aide, he was provided with the Salutatorian graduate of the Officer’s School class of 794, personally recommended by her father, Admiral Dwight Greenhill:-

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Particulars of fleet deployment were left to ‘old man’ Commodore Edwin Fischer, an expert on fleet deployment.

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The Free Planets Alliance set out for Iserlohn on April 27th, Space Year 796. It took two weeks to get to Iserlohn.

Preparations for Battle

Free Planets Alliance

Yang reasoned that it was impossible to take or destroy Iserlohn Fortress by brute force. Therefore, he would rely on deception and infiltration to seize control of Iserlohn’s nerve center. The infiltration itself would be left to the Rosen Ritter.

Yang’s staff expressed reservations – of the twelve previous Rosen Ritter commanders, four had died in battle against the Empire, two had been promoted to flag officers and retired, and six had betrayed the Alliance and defected to the Empire. Rumors circulated that Walter von Schönkopf might also turn traitor.

Yang placed his complete trust in Schönkopf’s integrity – on the basis of a confrontation he had seen Schönkopf get in with officers under Job Trunicht’s direct command.

Galactic Empire

As usual, the Iserlohn commanders merely waited in their fortress for the Alliance to attack, so they could crush them.

The Battle

On 13 May 796, the 13th Fleet arrived in the Iserlohn corridor and was detected by Iserlohn Fortress under the cover of communications jamming.

Iserlohn detected the approach, but was unable to determine the exact enemy position due to the jamming. At the same time, the fortress received a “strange transmission” from a light patrol ship dispatched from Odin, the Imperial capital. The ship was presently engaged in combat and was requesting assistance.

Admiral Seeckt decided on an immediate launch to assist, over the objections of Captain Paul von Oberstein, who had discerned it was nothing more than an enemy diversion. Seeckt reasoned that they wouldn’t lose even if the enemy was out there waiting. Oberstein’s case was probably not helped by the fact that Admiral Stockhausen agreed with Oberstein.

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The Iserlohn fleet launches

After the Iserlohn fleet left, the fortress received another message from the Imperial patrol, indicating that they had fought to reach the fortress and were currently being pursued and attacked by the Alliance fleet, and again requesting assistance.

Stockhausen asked what had happened to the fortress fleet, but communications with them had ceased. Stockhausen gave orders for the fortress to prepare to open fire, but to not use the Thor Hammer, since allied ships were in the battlezone.

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Iserlohn’s gun turrets rise out of its hydro-metal armor

Meanwhile, the Iserlohn fleet detected enemy fleet signals outside the orbit of Planet Anshar, the fourth planet of the Tiamat system. Moving to intercept, they discovered their patrol ship Bremen (an Imperial cruiser) being pursued by Alliance ships.

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The Bremen closed on Iserlohn, and its pursuers were seemingly warded off by Iserlohn’s floating gun batteries.

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Thanking the fortress for its assistance, the Bremen requested immediate docking clearance, due to their having suffered serious damage. The request was granted. The Rosen Ritter had entered Iserlohn.

Pretending to be a Lieutenant Commander Rahken, Schönkopf requested to be taken to the fortress commander as soon as possible, saying that the enemy fleet was approaching and that they intended to “neutralize this fortress” – the details being only known to him – and of course – confidential. Feigning wounds, he was placed into a medical capsule and sent to the fortress commander, flanked by some select Rosen Ritter, also impersonating Imperial officers.

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Meanwhile, Stockhausen still wasn’t aware of the situation outside the fortress. Communications interference was increasing. This was taken to mean the enemy was closing in. No communication from the station fleet was received. Informed of the situation with ‘Lt Commander Rahken’, he requested to see him immediately.

Seeckt, meanwhile, had closed on what he thought to be the main Alliance fleet, and discovered it was a decoy – just as Paul von Oberstein had thought.

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The Imperial fleet chases the decoy whilst the rest of the 13th Fleet is closer to Iserlohn.

Even though the enemy had discovered the deception, Yang noted it would take them at least two hours to return from that sector of space. Meanwhile, it would take the 13th Fleet 1.5 hours to get all their fleet into the fortress – leaving the Rosen Ritter only thirty minutes to open the port before they were attacked on both sides.

Yang gave the signal for the fleet to get started, and moved into detection range of Iserlohn – and began maneuvering back and forth, just outside of the Thor Hammer’s maximum range.

Amidst the confusion, the Rosen Ritter arrived in the Iserlohn command center. Bluffing their way past an ID check by Seeckt’s aide with wild talk of the enemy fleet having “started” its plan of neutralizing the fortress, Stockhausen let them through, puzzled at the Alliance fleet thrusting forward and backward on the viewscreen, seemingly without purpose.

Stockhausen approached Schönkopf’s medical capsule, asking why the Alliance fleet was behaving in such a manner, and was promptly captured.

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Taken by surprise, the other Rosen Ritter overpowered nearby guards and took their rifles. However, they were still outnumbered by the Imperial troops in the command center. Convinced that the commander feared dishonor more than death, Seeckt’s aide was ready to kill them. Unfortunately, he had overestimated Seeckt – who insisted that they drop their weapons and surrender.

The Rosen Ritter proceeded to tie up the command crew – but not before the aforementioned aide escaped his guard and initiated a computer lock, freezing all functions in Iserlohn – all partitions were closed, each floor and section’s traffic and communications were shut, and all weapons controls were shut down.

Though this meant that the Rosen Ritter were in no danger of being overrun by the fortress garrison, as all sections were isolated, it also meant that the Imperial fleet could return without being stopped by the Thor Hammer. Schönkopf was unperturbed – he was convinced they’d take over the central computer before that – which itself had a garrison of ‘only’ 50 men. Leaving most of his men behind in the computer core, he took two men with him to accomplish the task.

Meanwhile, the 13th Fleet waited for the fortress to give the signal to dock.

The Iserlohn fleet then returned. Seeckt was shocked to see the 13th fleet outside the fortress. They sent a message to Seeckt, saying:-

“Iserlohn Fortress is already occupied. If you surrender peacefully, no one will be harmed. If not, you will personally experience the Thor Hammer’s destructive power.”

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Seeckt and Oberstein look at the 13th Fleet silhouetted against Iserlohn.

Seeckt ordered a full stop, afraid to move into range of the Thor Hammer. Paul von Oberstein noted that the enemy’s movements and behavior was unusual, and that in all likelihood the fortress hadn’t yet fallen – if it had, it made more sense for them to merely annihilate their fleet with the Thor Hammer, rather than make a threat. Further, von Oberstein noted that the enemy fleet they had seen was only half their size, and if they attacked whilst the fortress was resisting, victory was assured.

Seeckt ignored Oberstein, noting that if the fortress had not fallen, then it should be firing on the Alliance fleet – and that there were probably more Alliance forces in the area. Seeckt ordered the fleet to hold position and “observe the situation”.

Meanwhile, Schönkopf and two fellow Rosen Ritter breached their way to the central computer by use of breaching charges and rappel. Using a Seffle particle generator, they killed much of the garrison:-

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And then defeated the rest in hand to hand combat (the Seffle particles preventing the use of small arms).

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Schönkopf and the Rosen Ritter do their bloody work

Resistance soon ceased, and the central computer was taken.

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The remainders of the central computer garrison surrender to only three men.

The 13th Fleet then saw the guidance buoys come up, and proceeded to dock at Iserlohn a few ships at a time, whilst the Imperial fleet looked on, dumbfounded.

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The 13th Fleet makes it way to the lit docking buoys

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Hyperion docks at its new home

Enraged, Seeckt ordered an advance at full speed. Paul von Oberstein objected, noting it was an obvious trap. Foolishly, Seeckt noted that von Oberstein had wanted them to rush in earlier, not appreciating that the situation had changed.

Reasoning that since the fortress had fallen, they could not go home in complete disgrace, Seeckt ordered a full assault and angrily ordered Oberstein to leave – which he did. But in a far more complete manner than he expected.

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Paul von Oberstein gets on a shuttle and leaves Seeckt to his fate

Although Yang was reluctant to use it, he knew the Imperial fleet could still damage their ships whilst docking, and ordered the Thor Hammer to open fire.

More than 1,000 Imperial ships were instantly destroyed.

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Refusing to imitate the “evil of the Empire”, Yang sent a message to the Imperial fleet:-

“Further bloodshed is pointless. If you are unwilling to surrender then withdraw. We will not pursue.”

Seeckt saw it as mockery. Furious, he ordered the whole fleet to attack and sent a message in reply:-

”You don’t understand the soldier’s heart. Our code will not allow us to endure living with dishonor. Dying to fulfill our honor, that is our code. Moreover, for the glory of the Kaiser, all ships will charge to die in an honorable defeat.

Now it was Yang’s turn to get angry.

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He ordered the flagship to be targeted. Seeckt was killed, and the Imperial fleet retreated.

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The date was 14th May 796.

Aftermath

The fall of Iserlohn Fortress had shifted the delicate balance of power between the Empire, the Alliance, and Fezzan.

The 13th Fleet had not suffered a single casualty. Henceforth, Yang would be known as “Miracle Yang” and “Yang the Magician”. Yang was also promoted to Vice Admiral for his achievement.

On his return, Yang immediately tendered his resignation to return to his original career. Playing on Yang’s obligation to his men, Fleet Admiral Sitolet noted that the 13th Fleet still needed him. Yang agreed to continue in the military.

In the Empire, the consequences were dire. The Alliance was now free to invade Imperial space at will. Contrary to Yang’s hopes, the Alliance government began drawing up plans for a massive invasion of Imperial space.

At Reinhard von Lohengramm’s admiralty, he ordered his frontline commanders to prepare their fleets for future action, with now Vice Admiral Siegfried Kircheis taking command of several of those fleets as their adjutant-general. But with his “No. 2” so engaged, Reinhard had no advisor.

As far as the command staff was concerned, the empire’s three Chiefs of Staff - the Secretary of War, the Supreme Command HQ Secretary General, and the Space Fleet Commander (i.e. Fleet Admiral Mückenburger) prepared to tender written resignations in disgrace– after also seeking the resignation of Captain Oberstein.

Fleet Admiral von Lohengramm intervened. The Kaiser offered Reinhard his pick of the three soon-to-be-vacant positions. After a meeting with Captain Oberstein (whom had previously made overtures in Reinhard’s direction), Reinhard realized that Oberstein shared his goals. Reinhard arranged for the “three old men” to keep their posts – in exchange for Oberstein’s posting at his own admiralty. The three chiefs of staff were in no position to refuse.

Captain Oberstein would go on to become Reinhard’s chief of staff and trusted adviser. Whilst Kircheis and Lohengramm were devoted and true friends of many years, Reinhard knew that Siegfried was also a good man – and that Paul von Oberstein was different.

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From here on, my battle is not just a matter for the battlefield. Political struggles. Imperial Court struggles. To avoid complications, both unending deceit and murder may be necessary. Understand, Oberstein? It is for that reason I have procured you. In exchange for the posts of three Chiefs of Staff … be of use to me.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Zor » 2010-09-25 03:43am

You know, given how the Thor's Hammer has got to be extremely powerful given the inefficienty in how it works. It's beam can destroy formations of spacecraft that are hundreds of kilometers across, alot of that energy is wasted, flying off into the cosmos not hitting anything.

Also, i wonder how effective Zephyr Particles would be in verses debates between Imperial/FPA forces against Stormtroopers and suchlike.

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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Vympel » 2010-09-25 03:49am

Zor wrote:You know, given how the Thor's Hammer has got to be extremely powerful. It's beam can destroy formations of spacecraft that are hundreds of kilometers apart, alot of that energy is wasted, flying off into the cosmos not hitting anything.

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Well we know it has a maximum range after which the beam somehow peters out. And keep in mind its power output is only in excess of 740TW according to the show (that being the output of the Vulture Claw, which is said to be comparable). :banghead:
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Darksider » 2010-09-25 04:08am

I've been marathonning my way through this series, and the Massive fleet battles are fucking awesome.

I wonder if anyone's modded this into Homeworld or something.

ZOR: depends on if the Zeypher particles just block their laser beam thingies or if they also prevent the use of explosives, slughthrowers, and flamers. If they do, SW is probably outclassed in HtH on a basic level, unless the Empire starts to deploy Dark Troopers as shipboard security (Nigh-indestructible battle droids FTW!)

Of course, i'd pay good money to see one of the Reich's axe-wielding mobs charge head-first into a squad of assault marines.
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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Zor » 2010-09-25 04:21am

Darksider wrote:Of course, i'd pay good money to see one of the Reich's axe-wielding mobs charge head-first into a squad of assault marines.
I don't know if they actually say it is, but the Reich and the FPA both use what looks like power armor.

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Re: Legend of the Galactic Heroes: Battles

Post by Vympel » 2010-09-25 06:04am

I wonder if anyone's modded this into Homeworld or something.
There's a Sins of Solar Empire mod, I know that much.

As for Zephyr particles, one of the Gaiden deals with the development of the directional Zephyr particles that Siegfried Kircheis likes to use (one of the various technological advantages the GE has over the FPA) - we learn that energy weapons fire ignites Zephyr particles, but its not a gas, so engine exhaust etc doesn't. They're not anymore specific than that.
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