SGU 119, Subversion (Spoilers)

[NecronLord]

I'm disappointed no one else did one. Well. that was... interesting. Most of today's quotes come from one character in one episode. Osiris really likes saying 'subversion.'

[Zac Naloen]

I'm not feeling too hasty to judge this episode, as the first part of a three parter

I found the plot itself intriguing enough not sure if we were ever supposed to believe if Rush was the spy or not, that part rang a bit hollow.

It was an enjoyable enough episode though, probably a 3 when compared to the rest of the series.

[NecronLord]

You mean Telford, not Rush? I felt it was pretty clear he's the spy from the reveal of the key.

[Zac Naloen]

No, when Young went to O'neill saying he didn't really trust rush etc was he trying to set up telford. Was only a 5 minute segment, but I suppose in character for Young.

[Alyeska]

The episode was entertaining. And it sets up the next two episodes nicely.

Some things that came to mind. The Lucian Alliance really expanded in the post Goa'uld vacuum. Even more, after the defeat of the Free Jaffa Nation as large entity, the Lucian Alliance kept growing. It makes sense. A Human based group that is growing and assuming control. Its become a defacto government, abliet factional. Would be interesting to see what remains of the Jaffa Nation. They suffered some bad defeats early on. They lost one or two ships in the first year of the Ori incursion, but they lost a shitload of them the next year. Chulack, Dakarra, and more planets gone. Entire fleets wiped out. The Lucian Alliance on the other hand managed to gain more Hattak ships.

The Lucian Alliance has growing ambitions. They want Destiny. But I do not think they realize quite how out of the league that ship is. Earth has the most technical knowledge thanks to assistance from the Asgard and access to Atlantis. The Jaffa and Lucian Alliance cannot match this knowledge. The Lucian Alliance wants technology from the Destiny, but doesn't seem to realize its out of their grasp.

Another Icarus planet. But no mentions of ZPMs. I am wondering about the power requirements. And I am wondering if its more than just raw power. I also suspect we are dealing with a Retcon here.

And a suspicion. With the Lucian Alliance having access to the resources it does, how much you want to bet they get access to stone communication?

[spaceviking]

Did anyone else find the Lucian’s Icarus to be a little undermanned? It seemed that their entire R and D was one guy.

Also I found it annoying that Daniel was the person used to trail Rush. Asside from those problems I thought it was a great episode.

[remus2]

Finding a new Icarus type planet, and the only one freaking guy to do the connection seams realy implausible. On the one hand comes actualy the astronomical chance of actualy getting to such a location. Second: One guy, realy? The SGC most probably had an entire departament working on this one, and this Lucian scion actualy is so deluded to think one guy could do it?
Aside from that, the episode was quite enjoyable. - I liked the US baby t-shirt. Want one , without the US.

Also it was nice to see some of the original SG1.

[CaptJodan]

I'm disappointed no one else did one.

I, for one, would not want to spoil your fun. We haven't argued the past few weeks, so what else would be left for you if not opening the thread?

Did anyone else find the Lucian’s Icarus to be a little undermanned? It seemed that their entire R and D was one guy.

Well, to be fair, I've not heard good justification for why the Alliance is doing anything with Destiny, but I wouldn't be surprised if this is considered a little side project by the upper echelons in the Alliance, a kind of "nice to have, but is it really gonna work" type of thing. A lot of what we've seen so far seems to point to the idea that this was someone's pet project that might not get full support from much of the rest of the Alliance, but is tolerated because one of the big-wigs says it should be done.

I'm actually still waiting for the justification for why they want the ship. Clearly the LA has access to the reports from Stargate Command on the status of the ship. Destiny isn't likely to give them technology superior to Atlantis on the whole. Even if there is technology aboard worth salvaging, the manner of getting it back to the Milky Way won't be very practical. At best, they'd have the stones to relay information back about the ship...maybe technical specifications, but if such specifications were around, you'd think Rush and the rest of the crew would be doing that as a matter of course already.

I hope the justification is more than just "hey, you wanted it so now we want it, rar!" Hopefully, either the Alliance knows something about the ship that only Rush knows (given his love affair with it and his willingness to go on a dangerous mission in order to, ultimately, keep the ship to himself), or they have a better plan than Earth does on how to get it or its technology back quicker.

Also I found it annoying that Daniel was the person used to trail Rush. Asside from those problems I thought it was a great episode.

This was mildly annoying to me too, but when you take a moment to think about it, it makes some sense. Jack agreed with Young that they had to keep the information contained, and to keep it contained with people that they absolutely trusted. I doubt Jack trusts anyone more than his old SG-1 team members, and perhaps Teal'c was off-world. Carter's in command of a ship now, so she could also be off-world. Was Jackson the best choice for a tail? Eh, probably not. But he was probably the most trusted individual around Jack at the time.

[NecronLord]

I don't find the Lucians only having one chief guy working on it that implausible. Icarus was made out to be a small operation with one guy doing most of the sciencing too, although he had assistants, some of those jobs could probably be done in the other rooms of the giant pyramid. Presumably they'll bring them in if they need them.

I, for one, would not want to spoil your fun. We haven't argued the past few weeks, so what else would be left for you if not opening the thread?

Grrrrr!

I hope the justification is more than just "hey, you wanted it so now we want it, rar!" Hopefully, either the Alliance knows something about the ship that only Rush knows (given his love affair with it and his willingness to go on a dangerous mission in order to, ultimately, keep the ship to himself), or they have a better plan than Earth does on how to get it or its technology back quicker.

Perhaps it has the secrets of ascension on board? That guy did disappear after all.

[Temujin]

I'm disappointed no one else did one. Well. that was... interesting. Most of today's quotes come from one character in one episode. Osiris really likes saying 'subversion.'

After my long and lousy Friday, I ended up falling asleep, and woke up in the middle of it. So I said fuck it and set the VCR for the later showing. I'm only watching it now.

Edit: I also didn't want to spoil your fun.

[Siege]

The parts with the Goa'uld cargo ship, the Lucian Alliance goons in black suburbans, and Rush being tailed by Daniel were such a fun reminder of the rogue NID/Trust bits of pre-Ori SG-1 that I couldn't help but love them regardless of whether Daniel was the best guy for the job. Besides, after so many missions infiltrating places all over the galaxy I think Mr. Jackson would be better qualified for the job than most professional spies anyway.

There's quite a lot about what's going on that we don't know yet... For example, is this Lucian Alliance woman operating with the full backing of her warlord father, or is she running a side-op? It looked a bit like the latter, considering how few men she seems to have at her disposal, which raises the question of what's she's up to. Presumably there's something aboard Destiny worth getting her hands on, but right now I'm not sure what it could possibly be.

Anyway, I'm kind of wondering if Telford really is a simple mercenary. His little rant about how he "came to his senses" and how Earth supposedly abandoned the galaxy was unconvincing. I like how O'Neill just blew him off with a single line. "I know what makes me special" indeed. You're talking to the guy who brought down the Goa'uld and saved Earth at least a dozen times, Telford. Know thy place!

Anyway, in the end I this felt more like old-fashioned Stargate than anything I've seen since the end of SG-1 Season 8, and just for that I'm going to give this a five-star rating. Looking forward to the rest of the episodes, and the inevitable Lucian Alliance goons stepping through the gate. Who knows, even they do get stuck on Destiny they might turn out to become the Maquis of Stargate: Universe... Certainly Little Miss Warlord would be more interesting to look at than Chakotay .

[Themightytom]

I approve this episode and gave it a 5. The 5 is for rapid pace, effective delivery and the echo of a golden age SG-1 operation which incidently is the first "Spygame/ real world black ops Intrigue" type of episode that isn't so horribly contrived. They are chasing a known traitor set up in the past instead of "An alien is shooting a movie!" or "The NIA created a Hannibal Lectress Goa'uld" or the worst of all possible set ups "Oh guess what there has been a goa'uld cult on earth for years!"

I gave it one star PURELY for the scene where O'neill arrives on the Destiny, complains about being a corporal, and then confidently strides out of the room heading the wrong way.

That being said What the hell is the timeframe here? Rush traded places with Telford "two days ago" when? Definite time has elapsed since Destiny arrived in galaxy and its confusing as hell that they don't offer a timestamp. TJ's REALLY starting to show so i suppose a week or two since the episode "lost" isn't out of the question.

Wray is somewhat well handled, her increasing frustration at being kept in the dark and her objection to the way Young is handling things had me thinking 911 style military trials. I also appreciated the nod to Daniel's disapproval as he still functions as jack's conscience.

Daniel makes a handy spy in that he can read or understand whatever is likely to be said and is familiar with the Lucian alliance, but would it have been so hard to find him a sodan cloak? Or bring in back up via a cloaked puddlejumper? Or even throw a tracker at the shuttle? Earth has multiple warships in orbit now and should have been able to provide better support than a couple of SUVs.

I imagine the Lucian alliance might be interested in Destiny because it might be possible to reach the automated gatebuilders from it, and to date they haven't found a stargate factory. It has also been pointed out in the past that Destiny is a closer link to current technology and ancient technology, with it maybe the Lucian alliance could make some advances even if they don't have access to the ancient tech that Earth has. Either of these seems important in giving the Lucian allaince leverage over Earth which is a serious thorn in their side.

Colonel Young needs to stop say "A" in the deliberate fashion he currently does. It has become A Nuisance.

When the hell are we going to see some Atlantis peeps up in this bitch? Dr. Beckett would have been interesting to do the removal of Rush' tracker. McKay could easily have been the drive expert (Or Zelenka for that matter)

[Crazedwraith]

Aren't Atlantis personnel off limits at least until their movie? If it is ever in fact made. Or they just admit they don't give a crap about it and it become the Jonas Quin of series.

[Darksider]

RE: Atlantis characters showing up, it doesn't seem likely. Aren't the writers stalling on the Atlantis movie and basically trying to pretend Atlantis (the series, not the city) doesn't exist?

Also, was the Lucien babe's head goon that bounty hunter guy from SG-1 season ten or am I imagining things?

[Temujin]

I'm not feeling too hasty to judge this episode, as the first part of a three parter.

I had some similar feelings, and was going to give it a 4. But since I really enjoyed the episode and feel its a harbinger of better things to come, I'm giving it a 5.

Thoughts:

• - Well, the relationship between Telford and Young goes back farther and is more complicated than originally indicted.
  
  - I love the way Greer came in and started pummeling Telford.
  
  - I originally thought Icarus was supposed to be engineered, but instead it seems they were tapping into natural naquadria deposits. Or am I mistaken here?
  
  - Telford's argument was pretty weak. Earth still has plenty of its own people living in squalor, and the forces Earth has are barely enough to keep Earth safe. They don't have the means to play galaxy enforcement agency and help everyone, everywhere in the galaxy.

Carter's in command of a ship now, so she could also be off-world.

Jack mentioned Carter when talking to Daniel, so I doubt she's across the galaxy. She could be in orbit using her ship's sensors to support the operation.

The parts with the Goa'uld cargo ship, the Lucian Alliance goons in black suburbans, and Rush being tailed by Daniel were such a fun reminder of the rogue NID/Trust bits of pre-Ori SG-1 that I couldn't help but love them regardless of whether Daniel was the best guy for the job. Besides, after so many missions infiltrating places all over the galaxy I think Mr. Jackson would be better qualified for the job than most professional spies anyway.

Yeah, Daniel's come a long way from his days as a simple archeologist.

Daniel makes a handy spy in that he can read or understand whatever is likely to be said and is familiar with the Lucian alliance, but would it have been so hard to find him a sodan cloak? Or bring in back up via a cloaked puddlejumper? Or even throw a tracker at the shuttle? Earth has multiple warships in orbit now and should have been able to provide better support than a couple of SUVs.

It is possible that the few ships (aside from possibly Carter's) and other resources they have are being used elsewhere to help shore up Earth's position on the galaxy. With the Ori gone, the Antarctic base and Atlantis should be adequate to protect Earth. But as limited as their forces are, they still need to keep a presence out there lest the LA or some other force starts taking over large areas of space.

[NecronLord]

It's obvious how the Lucians got that cargo ship onto Earth. It's a fucking TARDIS. Seriously, that interior set is huge compared to the old one, or at least it looks it.

[Siege]

The ship also looked much larger from the outside, and much less gaudy on the inside. Maybe it's the unpimped supermax model of Goa'uld shuttles .

Something I'm wondering about that I didn't catch in the episode itself... How did Rush know Kiva's name?

EDIT:

Also, was the Lucien babe's head goon that bounty hunter guy from SG-1 season ten or am I imagining things?

He is indeed the same actor (Mike Dopud) who played Odai Ventrell in Bounty as well as Colonel Chernovshev in the Season 8 episode Full Alert. Impressively spotted .

[Old Plympto]

"I know what makes me special."

That had me laughing out loud. However dark the theme of SGU with its muted colors and shakycam compared to SG-1, it just can't sap away the awesomeness of O'Neill.

[JME2]

I liked it. The mystery of who leaked Icarus' location to the Lucian Alliance has been in the background since the pilot and now we finally have some answers. I agree that the Alliance's expansion since the fall of the Ori makes sense and it does a lot to flesh them out, as the LA kinada got the shaft in SG-1. Loved seeing Jack and Daniel again, as well as a Tel'Tak.

5/5

[adam_grif]

Isn't this episode 18, not 19?

[Oskuro]

So the first SG-1 character to get to Destiny through the stones has ended up being JACK O'NEILL?!

Nice, well paced episode, I particularly liked the touch about Telford being the only one with memory leaks, although it ended up being a red herring. I was half-expecting half-hoping Telford actually had a Goaul'd inside, but without the ability to use his glowy eyes, it wouldn't be the same.

Wonder if Telford's body will actually make it through to Destiny. It is also very convenient how the FTL drive hasn't interrupted the connection this time.

As for the Sting operation, Daniel is Jack's most trusted person in the Universe, he had two swat teams as backup, and Sam piloting her spaceship of doom in orbit. Jack mentions how there's some intereference in the area rendering Sam unable to help the situation. Hadn't it been there, I bet a couple squads would've beamed in, or everyone else would've been beamed out.

[Alyeska]

Guys, Telford could still have been brainwashed. He could have been brainwashed into believing he honestly changed sides. You say his reasons sound hollow? There you go.

[PREDATOR490]

4

Standard build up episode. Nothing special or to get hopes up over when such things end up resolving themselves.

Oh wow, O'Neil made it on - Nice cameo although RDA dosent look too well.

Daniel - for all we see of him fair enough.

Of course now we have the question of why Daniel isnt helping on the Destiny if he is at such loose ends along with Carter and co.

Nice spruce up of the visual effects though for normal hyperspace but I really wish they would stop with the shaky fucking camera. Alright, its meant to be 'edgy' and less 'refined' but for fuck sake it gets extremely tedious to go through that ALL the time. We cant even have a conversation without the camera wobbling.

The baby scene seems like woeful filler and I'm curious if they actually intend to follow through with a baby onboard this ship. I dont see the Lucian Alliance making it to Destiny beyond maybe a brief attack. The 'oh we just randomly found another super planet' struck me as really stupid in its 'convienient' timing and I presume its going to end up destroyed by the end of this arc.

Weekly attacks from Lucian Alliance... seems a bit unlikely and tedious for this show. So far they seem far more intent at playing internal dramas rather than external 'alien bad guys'. Especially from the Milky Way where it will increase the pressure for Atlantis or more cameos from relevant characters.

[Covenant]

I gave this one a three, but that's with many caveats, and I think it's a 3 with high marks and a "good faith" bonus point towards the next episode. I did enjoy most of it and I did feel it had a lot more of the original Stargate spark with regard to some of the story, the wider cast of characters, and a little bit of likability in the characters. Young is a paranoid asshole, but he was effective in working with O'Neill. Rush held out under torture like a badass. Scott continues trying to reach across the divide to the civilians.

It's not a four or a five, and I have a bunch of reasons why, but still, I think it's fun. I wouldn't have had any problems with a more psychological episode (the few they've had have been pretty satisfying to me) but Rush was good. Telford was... meh. I do find it kinda funny that they had to fall back on those damned stones to set up this story. What's the point of Destiny being a hojillion miles away if you're going to just swap back and forth? I've always felt the stones are a bit of a cop-out...

But despite this, it still had good moments, and some old cast, and some of that kind of fun. I'm tellin' ya' though, without those little musical hits and without any kind of color, Daniel and O'Neill just looked ill and unwashed and it was very off-putting. I would have appreciated a tiny little moment of "Aww, it's the SGC" if they had shot it in normal color, since I hate how apparently SGU's grimdark taint has flowed back through the wormhole to make everyone on Earth a grimy upset cynic as well. Or something. I dunno, it was just really jarring. Because of that the "really good" scenes never really did it for me, and they all seemed languid compared to the dynamic, energy-filled SG1 versions.

This show is nearly across the board bland and lifeless when it comes to action, but it's torpid characters are most compelling when you see into their psychology and you can experience the effects of a people pushed to the brink by isolation and fear. Kinda missed the mark here, except for Rush, which was very good. I would have liked him to claim to be Greer or Scott or Daniel Jackson however. If he said he was Daniel we'd be able to reference SG1 events while also allowing Rush to do his translator gig. But I won't begrudge the scene, Rush held out nobly, a lot longer than I'd expect from the Dr. Smith character.

So on the balance, it works it's way up to a 3. Not as good as the best episodes, and way better than the worst. If they continue this narrative arc I've got some hope that part 2 and part 3 will be better than this one, which should set us up for some interesting stuff. I'm actually looking forward to the next one, and may hand out some 4's and 5's come June if this is any indication.

[Siege]

Guys, Telford could still have been brainwashed. He could have been brainwashed into believing he honestly changed sides. You say his reasons sound hollow? There you go.

I was thinking that might be the case, yeah. I just hope they don't go the tired old 'heroic sacrifice after realizing the truth' route with Telford.