40k Chaos allegience question

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40k Chaos allegience question

Post by PainRack » 2009-09-14 02:14pm

Just out of curiousity, what has been the good fluff reasons for joining the Chaos God Nurgle? I mean, I COULD understand why commoners would want to do so in WH Fantasy, and I can even understand how the CSM did so. But in WH40k for the common folks and stuff?

So far, the only good fluff I seen regarding Nurgle followers is that its involuntary. They die from Nurgle plagues and diseases, and that's it. Sometimes, its just as simple as getting infected, as seen in a short story in Let's the Galaxy Burn.

Anything else? Is there any fluff for their Chaos champion regarding followers being "seduced" or "drawn" to Nurgle, similar to those we see for Khorne and Slaanesh?



Similarly, what ARE the tangible benefits of choosing Tzentech over Khorne and etc in Wh40k? He's the Lord of Change, sure... but unlike Fantasy, warp powers/Chaos magic don't seem to infuse Tzentech worshippers more strongly than other Chaos. Or at least, not in the bog standard models in game and not for standard champions.
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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Samuel » 2009-09-14 02:33pm

Nurgle loves and cares about you. In a universe that is as brutally impersonal as 40K, kindness goes a long way. Don't you want to feel warm and fuzzy inside (warning- warmth may be a sign of fever and fuzzy may actually be mold).

As for Tzentech I'm pretty sure he gives or at least amplifies his followers powers. Doesn't he have the majortiy of the Sorcerers?

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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Azazal » 2009-09-14 03:14pm

For Nurgle, no just the sick turn to him, but those that are getting old and past their prime might turn to him as a way to extend their lives, or those that were born into poverty and never had a chance to grow or prosper will turn to papa Nurgle. Imagine being some poor schmuck in Somalia, never having had a full stomach, sickness abounds, and Nurgle promises to give you power, strength and immortality, all for the minor cost of your soul..

Tzeentch does give his followers massive magic/psychic powers, they don't show much on the table top due to balancing issues, but that's his thing. His followers tend to be some of the most powerful psychers in 40k, but that trade off, beside the whole soul thing is to live fast die young, and leave behind a horribly mutated corpse. Or, given his fickle nature, Tzeentch will just as likely grant a follower massive power as he is to make said follower into a gibbering chaos spawn. Hell he's likely to do both at once, just to be a dick.
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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Serafina » 2009-09-14 03:23pm

Tzeentch actually grants his followers the powers of sorcery.
And Sorcery actually IS different from psy powers. They both draw upon the warp, but psionics use your own mind to channel these energies, Sorcery uses demons to channel them for you.

Ironically, Sorcery is actually more dangerous - but you interact with demons, what do you expect?
But it is acessible for anyone, not just psykers.


Nurgle has arguably the most benefits for Joe Normal. Pretty much imortality, and way, way easier than from the other gods.
Resistance to pain, disease and ageing are very common gifts from Nurgle.

Nurgle is also the "god of life" in some way - since life unavoidably decays, he interacts with it a lot.

A doctor who does not want this patients to die (hello zombie plaque), a mother wanting to save her child from a disease, a father who does not want to die because he has a family to protect - all potential followers to Nurgle.

Of course, there are a lot of instances where Nurgle plaques you and then saves you when you accept him - kinda reminds me of Jesus :P

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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by white_rabbit » 2009-09-14 05:57pm

Theres one example where a Daemon prince just cheats.

He blasts away an Ultramarines memories by brute force, then fills the guys brains with " Nurgle Rocks " sung by cheerleading nurglings.
So far, the only good fluff I seen regarding Nurgle followers is that its involuntary. They die from Nurgle plagues and diseases, and that's it. Sometimes, its just as simple as getting infected, as seen in a short story in Let's the Galaxy Burn.
Nurgle gets followers for the same reason as the others, quick route to power, succour from their ills or torments.
Similarly, what ARE the tangible benefits of choosing Tzentech over Khorne and etc in Wh40k? He's the Lord of Change, sure... but unlike Fantasy, warp powers/Chaos magic don't seem to infuse Tzentech worshippers more strongly than other Chaos. Or at least, not in the bog standard models in game and not for standard champions.
Half the time its the promise of more power I expect, Tzeentch is probably quite persuasive. Remember that different people are going to be swayed by different things at different So someone might chose one god, but later change their mind.

Its a warhammer example, but its pertinent, A Tzeentchian champion is defeated by the blandishments of Nurgle, so pleads to nurgle for mercy, and becomes a powerful Nurgle champion/daemon. He's swayed by Tzeentch to begin with, but Nurgle is more important to him when he's got his arse kicked, and is rotting to death.
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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2009-09-14 06:15pm

Tzeentch isn't just the god of sorcery, he's the patron of ambition and plans. He is the Changer of the Ways, The Great Schemer, and The Architect of Fate. You have talent, but your low birth keeping you down? He's The Man. The warpy, ruthless, capricious, seventeen steps ahead of everyone else, Man.
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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Serafina » 2009-09-14 06:33pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:Tzeentch isn't just the god of sorcery, he's the patron of ambition and plans. He is the Changer of the Ways, The Great Schemer, and The Architect of Fate. You have talent, but your low birth keeping you down? He's The Man. The warpy, ruthless, capricious, seventeen steps ahead of everyone else, Man.
To give more specific examples:

-The administrator who is stuck with his job - he is just unable to get an promotion despite his best efforts and skills.
Tzeentch will help him to make his boss fail and destroy (literary or not) his opponents.

-The officer whose brilliant plans are destroyed by his underlings or superiors. Tzeentch will give him the ability to warp their plans so that they work accordingly to his own.

-The teacher searching to impart greater knowledge on his students - he is just unable to teach them the "reality" about the universe. Tzeentch will show him and his students the truth.

-The scoundrell who is a master at life, but not at success. Tzeentch will enhance his cunning tenfold, and soon he will trick himself into positions of power.
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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Archaic` » 2009-09-15 11:16am

Every time someone asks why people would follow Nurgle, I can't help but remember the Nurgle cult that was featured in the Blood Bowl novels. Basically involved a bunch of very promiscuous people who went around spreading Nurgles diseases through giant orgies.
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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Guardsman Bass » 2009-09-15 05:06pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:Tzeentch isn't just the god of sorcery, he's the patron of ambition and plans. He is the Changer of the Ways, The Great Schemer, and The Architect of Fate. You have talent, but your low birth keeping you down? He's The Man. The warpy, ruthless, capricious, seventeen steps ahead of everyone else, Man.
Yeah, but at least with Nurgle you know that he cares about you. Not like Tzeentch, where you may get power, but then find out that you're nothing more than a pawn piece in an absurdly complex competition between two Greater Tzeentch Demons over who gets the last piece of chocolate human pie that has gone on for 17,998 years.
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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2009-09-15 07:29pm

Guardsman Bass wrote:
Imperial Overlord wrote:Tzeentch isn't just the god of sorcery, he's the patron of ambition and plans. He is the Changer of the Ways, The Great Schemer, and The Architect of Fate. You have talent, but your low birth keeping you down? He's The Man. The warpy, ruthless, capricious, seventeen steps ahead of everyone else, Man.
Yeah, but at least with Nurgle you know that he cares about you. Not like Tzeentch, where you may get power, but then find out that you're nothing more than a pawn piece in an absurdly complex competition between two Greater Tzeentch Demons over who gets the last piece of chocolate human pie that has gone on for 17,998 years.
I'm not arguing Tzeentch versus Nurgle. I was correcting the distorted impression of Tzeentch that was being created by only referring to The Architect of Fate as a god of mutation and sorcery.
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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Rye » 2009-09-16 08:23pm

Hell, I can think right now what would make someone on an urban world turn to Tzeench, and it's not half as dramatic as you'd think. Imagine all the stupid bullshit that gets in your way on your average day; the lights always turn red when you need to be somewhere, a tiny screw falls out of your glasses making the lens fall out, you can't piss when there's a big black man next to you in the bogs... then one day you're visiting a little shop full of nick-knacks and the wizened old guy behind the counter gives you a Tzeentch-imbued penny. He says that yeah, it's warp-tainted, but it's only mild, it'll fix your luck for you.

The next day, you're driving through a city, you rub the penny, and all the traffic lights you come to are green. The guy before you giving a presentation leaves his fly down. You piss free and easy. A bit of mild luck would be enough to get people hooked on Tzeentch, and then it's only a matter of time before they've got birds coming out of their balls and their left arm seems to have become a writhing staff that shits magic.
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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by DPDarkPrimus » 2009-09-17 01:11am

Actually if Nurgle likes you enough, you don't suffer the ill effects of the diseases you have. I mean, you'll have pussy boils and bowel discharges and everything, but you'll feel GREAT.
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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor » 2009-09-17 01:53am

DPDarkPrimus wrote:Actually if Nurgle likes you enough, you don't suffer the ill effects of the diseases you have. I mean, you'll have pussy boils and bowel discharges and everything, but you'll feel GREAT.
I think most converts to Nurgle find themselves enjoying the act of a rotting limb etc. "Embrace DECAY!!!"
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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Darth Hoth » 2009-09-17 03:00am

I suppose it is something like the Singularitarians who would take "immortality" in the form of computer code - they value the extended life of the mind over the health (or humanity) of the body. Being a decomposing pile of mutated flesh is arguably less of a transition than your typical sci-fi "uploading", so from that perspective Nurgle worship would make sense.
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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-09-17 04:31pm

PainRack wrote:Just out of curiousity, what has been the good fluff reasons for joining the Chaos God Nurgle? I mean, I COULD understand why commoners would want to do so in WH Fantasy, and I can even understand how the CSM did so. But in WH40k for the common folks and stuff?

So far, the only good fluff I seen regarding Nurgle followers is that its involuntary. They die from Nurgle plagues and diseases, and that's it. Sometimes, its just as simple as getting infected, as seen in a short story in Let's the Galaxy Burn.

Anything else? Is there any fluff for their Chaos champion regarding followers being "seduced" or "drawn" to Nurgle, similar to those we see for Khorne and Slaanesh?



Similarly, what ARE the tangible benefits of choosing Tzentech over Khorne and etc in Wh40k? He's the Lord of Change, sure... but unlike Fantasy, warp powers/Chaos magic don't seem to infuse Tzentech worshippers more strongly than other Chaos. Or at least, not in the bog standard models in game and not for standard champions.

My impression has always been that at the start its always kind of just greed and ambision and other selfish/negative desires that hook you, but at some point in your descent into the clutches of Chaos you lose your humanity and/or just become insane. Insanity seems to be a prime requisite for beinga Chaos worshipper, and once you've descended into madness you really stop caring what you look like or even what happens to you. Khornate followers become bloodthirsty madmen who only care about killing, Slaaneshi only care about sensations (greater and greater sensations), etc.

In Nurgle's caes, I doubt you get mutated or corrupted into a pusbag immediatey when you become one ofhis cultists. It's more likely that you get hooked by wishing for or wanting minor things like superhuman health or curing some hideous affliction or something like that. As time goes ona nd you become more enmeshed in the worship though, thats likely when the real mutations and corruptions start to happen (but by that time you're either insane or a monster anyhow, so its mor a matter of the outside starting to reflect the inside.) In a similar vein other Chaos powers seem to start with the "seemingly innocent at first" descent into evil approach - Slaanesh might use something like brothels or gambling establishments to get ahold of people (I think that happened in Farseer), while Tzeentch might ttry influencing some otherwise-innocent cabal by granting minor trickery or magic or some such.

In the case of plagues like plague zombies and stuff, its probably more like the corruption of the Death Guard, by the time the diseases has you you wont care how or why you are saved so long as you get saved... and if you don't well.. you suffer and Nurgle gets you in the end anyhow, so its win-win for him.

Part of the whole "path to damnation thing seems to be a "You don't realize what you're getting into until its too late" -they seemto like that kind of mindfuckery, and when they get their talons into you you ARE prety much fucked one way or another (eg: Tzzeetnch's perpetual nature of betrayal, even of his own minions or of himself.) Such is the nature of Chaos. They may make alot of vague promises and hopes of power, but they never actually tell you up front what gaining those promises may entail, or that you aren't guaranteed them. Again, mindfuckery at work.

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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Darksider » 2009-09-17 06:00pm

See, shit like that is why i've always wondered about the Imperium's policy of "Tell no one about Chaos, and kill anyone who sees warpy stuff." If the population of the 41st Millennium knew that worship of chaos would turn them into a crazy-ass mutated bag of slimy puss, they might be less inclined to turn.
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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Samuel » 2009-09-17 06:15pm

Darksider wrote:See, shit like that is why i've always wondered about the Imperium's policy of "Tell no one about Chaos, and kill anyone who sees warpy stuff." If the population of the 41st Millennium knew that worship of chaos would turn them into a crazy-ass mutated bag of slimy puss, they might be less inclined to turn.
Uh, the Uplifting Primer has descriptions about how you can tell something is choas tainted- not to mention Imperial indoctrination probably always has mentioned the forces of Choas. After all, what else would they say when recounting the Horus Heresy which is essentially the foundation of the Imperial Creed? Or for that matter the persecution of psychers on the grounds they can be corrupted.

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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Serafina » 2009-09-17 06:48pm

Yepp, Imperial citizens are told ALL THE TIME that "Chaos corrupts, Chaos is evil, yaddayaddayadda".
The first thing Chaos does is question that indoctrination - because it's this - Indoctriantion.
Just like, say, modern day churches.

And thats why free thought is mostly forbidden - it's used by Chaos.
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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Adrian Laguna » 2009-09-17 06:50pm

I once read a short story (Tenebrae) that had the governor of a planet invaded by the forces of Chaos nearly succumb to Nurgle simply by watching, from his office window, the decaying corpse of one of his friends. I have to say the author had real talent, he made the process of decomposition actually sound beautiful and seductive. That would be one way to become a Nurgle follower, his powers influence your mind such that you begin to develop and obsession with sickness and rot.

Also important to remember that Nurgle is the only Chaos God that actually personally cares about you. Part of the allure of his worship is that Papa Nurgle loves all His children. To one who is plagued by loneliness and despair, what's a little illness in exchange of finally feeling loved and appreciated?

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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Raxmei » 2009-09-17 11:50pm

I was once in a discussion on another board that compared the movie Fight Club to Nurgle worship. The first act is obvious. The rest of the movie isn't as blatant. The fight club is about embracing self-destruction, finding kinship with "the all singing all dancing crap of the world", and reveling in defiance of neat & tidy society. The story starts in the middle of the protagonist's fall, moves on to him starting a cult, recruiting from the downtrodden, campaigns of contamination, and finally an attempt at overthrowing society
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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Bluewolf » 2009-09-18 07:14am

Serafina wrote:Yepp, Imperial citizens are told ALL THE TIME that "Chaos corrupts, Chaos is evil, yaddayaddayadda".
The first thing Chaos does is question that indoctrination - because it's this - Indoctriantion.
Just like, say, modern day churches.

And thats why free thought is mostly forbidden - it's used by Chaos.
On top of that, even knowing the true names of the god's or the marks is enough to start the process of corruption off. On top of that, it can be hard to spot. This is why you see planets totally go into Chaotic hands out of nowhere. The process hard to see yet spread's quickly.

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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Simon_Jester » 2009-09-20 05:35pm

PainRack wrote:Just out of curiousity, what has been the good fluff reasons for joining the Chaos God Nurgle? I mean, I COULD understand why commoners would want to do so in WH Fantasy, and I can even understand how the CSM did so. But in WH40k for the common folks and stuff?
Remember that a typical citizen of the Imperium in 40k has a medieval peasant/Victorian factory worker standard of living; they're probably not much better off than the commoners of WH Fantasy. On top of that, Nurgle's got that whole "benevolent grandfather of the oppressed" thing going on as a subtext. I'd imagine that a typical Chaos Nurgle cult starts out by preaching to people in a desperate and truly sucky situation, offering them comfort and support, sort of like a warped version of Mother Teresa. The plagues and mutations only start to crop up later, and by that point you have no choice but to turn to Nurgle because the Imperial authorities will kill you with extreme prejudice (and fire).
Similarly, what ARE the tangible benefits of choosing Tzentech over Khorne and etc in Wh40k? He's the Lord of Change, sure... but unlike Fantasy, warp powers/Chaos magic don't seem to infuse Tzentech worshippers more strongly than other Chaos. Or at least, not in the bog standard models in game and not for standard champions.
Being a Tzeentch worshipper gives you the thrill of being, y'know, smarter than everyone else; I imagine it's especially appealing to people who have a strong sense of their own cleverness (like, say, typical Internet forum-goers... eep!). Also, there's always that hope of somehow gaining the kind of power you crave, even if you don't get it just for walking in the door; as I understand it, Tzeentch-ocracy is very meritocratic, if you interpret ability to be a scheming backstabber as merit. Contrast that to the Imperium, where most people will never even see an aspect of society where some random guy can rise to a position of real power. Even the ubiquitous Navy and Imperial Guard is made up largely of people who, as far as their homeworld is concerned, are never seen again; if they rise up through the ranks no one from back home is going to know about it.

Also, a lot of worshippers will be lured into the cult by those same clever people (betraying and luring people into mind controlled Tzeentch-worship is, after all, itself a form of Tzeentch-worship). Or they'll turn to him because they've already become mutants by some other means and have nowhere else to go than the Lord of Mutation (see the first Space Wolf book for an example of this).
Rye wrote:Hell, I can think right now what would make someone on an urban world turn to Tzeench, and it's not half as dramatic as you'd think. Imagine all the stupid bullshit that gets in your way on your average day; the lights always turn red when you need to be somewhere, a tiny screw falls out of your glasses making the lens fall out, you can't piss when there's a big black man next to you in the bogs... then one day you're visiting a little shop full of nick-knacks and the wizened old guy behind the counter gives you a Tzeentch-imbued penny. He says that yeah, it's warp-tainted, but it's only mild, it'll fix your luck for you.

The next day, you're driving through a city, you rub the penny, and all the traffic lights you come to are green. The guy before you giving a presentation leaves his fly down. You piss free and easy. A bit of mild luck would be enough to get people hooked on Tzeentch, and then it's only a matter of time before they've got birds coming out of their balls and their left arm seems to have become a writhing staff that shits magic.
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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Samuel » 2009-09-20 08:29pm

Remember that a typical citizen of the Imperium in 40k has a medieval peasant/Victorian factory worker standard of living; they're probably not much better off than the commoners of WH Fantasy.
It depends. I'm pretty sure there is mention of longer life expectancy and the standard of living is higher. There just happen to be some places that are really bad.
I'd imagine that a typical Chaos Nurgle cult starts out by preaching to people in a desperate and truly sucky situation, offering them comfort and support, sort of like a warped version of Mother Teresa.
That is an insult to Grandfathe Nurgle! He does actually make the pain stop.

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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Simon_Jester » 2009-09-20 09:51pm

Samuel wrote:
Remember that a typical citizen of the Imperium in 40k has a medieval peasant/Victorian factory worker standard of living; they're probably not much better off than the commoners of WH Fantasy.
It depends. I'm pretty sure there is mention of longer life expectancy and the standard of living is higher. There just happen to be some places that are really bad.
Ah, and those are the places where the cult of Nurgle sees relatively little success... A God of Despair and disease will not thrive in places where life doesn't suck all that much and decent medical care is widely available.

And even on the nicer planets, you still have the underhives and such; WH40k is far too grimdark a setting for any planet to get away completely clean.
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Re: 40k Chaos allegience question

Post by Adrian Laguna » 2009-09-21 02:49am

Simon_Jester wrote:
Samuel wrote:It depends. I'm pretty sure there is mention of longer life expectancy and the standard of living is higher. There just happen to be some places that are really bad.
Ah, and those are the places where the cult of Nurgle sees relatively little success... A God of Despair and disease will not thrive in places where life doesn't suck all that much and decent medical care is widely available.
The upper crust of society is instead very much susceptible to Tzeentch and Slaanesh. In worlds were people hold personal honour in high esteem, and duels with deadly weapons are common, those who often engage in duels may also be susceptible to Khorne worship. You could even have a triple-pantheon combo in a prideful, shameless, dastardly, wanker of a nobleman.

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