WH:40k (power) armor question

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WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Lord Revan » 2009-07-16 04:02pm

Am I right at assuming that WH:40k power armor is for all intents and purposes immune to most modern man-portable weapons (except anti-material rifles and anti-tank weapons)?

also how effective would Carapace armor be against moderns weapons?
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by NecronLord » 2009-07-16 04:32pm

Power Armour would be all but immune to modern smallarms. Carapace armour seems to have some weakpoints in most illustrations (bodygloves underneath, etc) but the actual carapace is likely strong enough to handily resist all but sustained fire.

In my opinion, at any rate.
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by andrewgpaul » 2009-07-16 04:35pm

I usually figured that the actual hard bits of carapace are similar in composition to power armour plate, but either don't cover the whole body (guard/stormtrooper issue) or aren't as thick (Arbites/Enforcers armour).
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Hawkwings » 2009-07-16 10:03pm

I figure high caliber modern rounds should be able to dent carapace armor. Sustained .50 cal rounds on a carapace chestpiece, for example, should (in my mind) seriously mangle the armor and whoever was behind it.
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Cykeisme » 2009-07-16 10:09pm

The latest fifth edition Imperial Guard codex states that the rigid plates of carapace armour is composed of armaplas and/or ceramite plates shaped to fit its wearer.
From descriptions that we've seen in novels and such, I'd agree with NecronLord; the hard plates on a carapace suit will shrug off small arms fire, but the coverage is far from complete.

Carapace is indeed composed at least partly of similar materials to power armour, but obviously even for normal human-sized power armour, the fact that it has "powered" movement assistance allows it to mount much larger and heavier plates with nigh-complete coverage.
Astartes power armour is of course scaled up dramatically with even bigger and thicker plates, and would therefore be likewise more resilient.. even .50 BMG rounds will be deflected or stopped outright by the plates (heavy stubber fire appears to be just that, more or less), and even 20mm or larger cannon rounds are deflected (referencing the flying vehicle firing on Brother-Sergeant Learchus in Nightbringer).


Note that flak armour, aside from covering less of a wearer's body, is also described as being of lesser materials.. "ablative thermoplast materials and impact absorbent carbifibres", according to the fluff part of the Codex.


edit:
Hawkwings wrote:I figure high caliber modern rounds should be able to dent carapace armor. Sustained .50 cal rounds on a carapace chestpiece, for example, should (in my mind) seriously mangle the armor and whoever was behind it.
Hmm.. without the sheer mass of the suit to absorb the impact and without a powered frame under the plates to transfer the force into the ground through a wearer's feet, the impact of a .50BMG hit might still seriously injure or kill the wearer, even without penetration.
Can someone shed some light on this?
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Hawkwings » 2009-07-16 10:41pm

If the suit is sufficiently padded and the design works to spread out the force of the impact both in time as well as area, the whole "breaking bones from the force of the impact" thing might be mitigated. Apparently a .50BMG has about 13,000 foot-pounds of energy. How would one go about turning that into pressure, or whatever the relevant measure is for impact force?
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2009-07-17 03:14am

Didn't stop a crowd of Chaos-madenned farmers from murdering the fuck out of a lone Astartes with but farming implements and bare hands, though, in Brothers of the Snake.
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by TheMuffinKing » 2009-07-17 12:16pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Didn't stop a crowd of Chaos-madenned farmers from murdering the fuck out of a lone Astartes with but farming implements and bare hands, though, in Brothers of the Snake.

But in this situation the mass of farmers can exploit the weak points in the armor with greater precision than most marksman. I'll bring up the copout idea that chaos maddened farmers might have chaos induced strength mutations ( though you didn't specifically mention that, I'm just floating the idea).
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Karza » 2009-07-17 12:37pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Didn't stop a crowd of Chaos-madenned farmers from murdering the fuck out of a lone Astartes with but farming implements and bare hands, though, in Brothers of the Snake.
He was initially attacked by some chaos daemon or such though, so both the armor and its wearer probably had taken quite a clobbering before the cultists got to him. Also, wasn't he rescued in the nick of time? IIRC he was in bad shape but not dead yet when the rest of the squad got to him.

EDIT: Actually, another case of primitive weapons vs. power armor comes to mind from Space Wolf. In it Ragnar gets knocked down and stunned by a warp-infused throwing axe and then gets swarmed by a bunch of mutants. It is mentioned that even if their weapons are primitive, they could've finished him off by digging through the armour joints, though it'd take a little time. Of course Ragnar recovers and proceeds to throw them off and slaughter the everliving fuck out of them :) .
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-07-18 04:15am

Various sources depict carapace as being able to stand up to .50 cal fire like heavy stubbers (or its equivalent - IE Ork guns) - and more extreme ones can hold up to bolters (Wolf's honour). The more common example of this would be Vostroyan Carapace (cf Rebel Winter, but 5th Edition sorta hints at this too.)

Power armour is stronger still generally. Astartes power armor is consistently shown to stand up not just to small arms fire as well as stubber fire (more or less indefinitely), but also to autocannon fire (cf Nightbringer being the most immediate example but I'm sure there is more) though some autocannon (at least) would be able to penetrate (CSM armor in I believe Ghostmaker.)

"Hard" Flak (or at least the solid plates/inserts) can stand up to at least one or two small arms shots from a full-power round (even the Ghost's light flak could do this) but the guy beneath could be injured due to blunt-force trauma (Straight Silver and Storm of Iron) and some rounds will break the plates (His Last Command.)

Note that virtually all ove the above armors while durable in the solid plate components, typically are less protective in the flexible bits (joints, neck area, etc.) and a determined enemy cna exploit these. (aimed shot, lucky hit, etc.) In the case of Astartes this is the case why even Astartes can be brought down with numbers if they are overwhelmed.

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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Serafina » 2009-07-18 11:17am

It is imporant to remember that you do not need to penetrate the armor to inflict damage. This is especially true with blunt/impact weapons, which contributes to the threat for Space Marines - if dozens of people are clobbering you, amror can not safe you.
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2009-07-18 02:11pm

@ Karza: That's what happened to the Marine who got attacked by the stealth demon and disappeared. But another Marine also got swarmed and killed.


Hrm. Maybe it should be noted that in the Cain books, Jurgen takes a close-range headshot from a bolter and survives (though is rendered combat incapable, wounded and leaking 'clear fluid' from his skull, but he recovered from it). He was also wearing carapace armor, though how much that varies from standard IG-issue helmets, who knows?
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Hawkwings » 2009-07-18 02:15pm

If anything, I'd imagine that the bolt failed to engage its rocket engine or even properly arm for a close range shot, therefore rendering it no more than a large, slow-ish bullet. That being said, carapace helmets are probably really really armored, and Cain probably got Jurgen the heaviest suit he could, especially considering Jurgen can take the weight.
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2009-07-18 02:25pm

Hawkwings wrote:If anything, I'd imagine that the bolt failed to engage its rocket engine or even properly arm for a close range shot, therefore rendering it no more than a large, slow-ish bullet. That being said, carapace helmets are probably really really armored, and Cain probably got Jurgen the heaviest suit he could, especially considering Jurgen can take the weight.
Doesn't even have to be that. If it hits at a bad angle, it'll deflect off armour that it would otherwise penetrate.
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Black Admiral » 2009-07-18 03:12pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Hrm. Maybe it should be noted that in the Cain books, Jurgen takes a close-range headshot from a bolter and survives (though is rendered combat incapable, wounded and leaking 'clear fluid' from his skull, but he recovered from it). He was also wearing carapace armor, though how much that varies from standard IG-issue helmets, who knows?
It probably hadn't armed - that's happened before; in Nightbringer for one (tore a hole in the target's cheek, but didn't blow up until it was too far away to do any harm).
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2009-07-18 04:09pm

Then either un-armed bolter rounds are of sufficient velocity to crack through carapace helmets, or Jurgen really sucks at getting clothing that fits and that his ill-fitting helmet ended up hanging to expose his forehead to the weak bolter round.
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-07-18 04:50pm

Oberst Tharnow wrote:It is imporant to remember that you do not need to penetrate the armor to inflict damage. This is especially true with blunt/impact weapons, which contributes to the threat for Space Marines - if dozens of people are clobbering you, amror can not safe you.
Uh, yeah if the impact is strong enough it could still pulverize the person inside. break bones, etc. If its powerful enough or it is delivered in teh right manner. This is more likely the case though with high momentum impacts hitting say, the skull or forcing an arm back at a bad angle or extreme crushing/constriction than it neccesarily is from simple blows. Getting hit with a farming scythe or a pick isn't likely to do much severe damage - especially to an Astartes - unless it bends/dents/buckles the armor in some manner. It's far more likely that they got in close and attacked weak points in the armor. Not even Space Marine power armor can provide full protection everywhere.

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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-07-18 04:55pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:@ Karza: That's what happened to the Marine who got attacked by the stealth demon and disappeared. But another Marine also got swarmed and killed.


Hrm. Maybe it should be noted that in the Cain books, Jurgen takes a close-range headshot from a bolter and survives (though is rendered combat incapable, wounded and leaking 'clear fluid' from his skull, but he recovered from it). He was also wearing carapace armor, though how much that varies from standard IG-issue helmets, who knows?
It struck his helmet and exploded outside. Its explicitly mentioned to have failed to penetrate. Even so, it shattered the armor and gave him a concussion/cranial damage. He needed medical help after that.

Its also worth noting another carapace armored trooper with Cain took a bolt round to the chest. The bolt penetrated and exploded the person rather messily, so this instance is more likely due to luck than anything.

Wolf's honour had Guard issue carapace stopping a CSM bolt tho (And the person wearing it got flung about pretty nastily, at that) It might have failed to detonate.

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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Ford Prefect » 2009-07-19 07:05am

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Then either un-armed bolter rounds are of sufficient velocity to crack through carapace helmets
Boltguns are pretty much long range armour piercing weapons, excepting some types of ammo (like the airbursting rounds). It's been specifically noted that the right targetter can actually make a Godwyn pattern bolter an effective sniper rifle.
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2009-07-19 11:51am

If the bolt did fail to penetrate but did explode, as Connor says (I can double-check since I have the AWESOME books!), then what does that say for bolter rounds? Or carapace armor (or at least their helmets)?

Do bolts need to accelerate and boost their intial velocity after exiting the barrel? How are bolts targeted, anyway (is there some terminal guidance or something?)? If the bolts need to boost their speed with their internal rockets, does it affect their accuracy?
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-07-19 02:19pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:If the bolt did fail to penetrate but did explode, as Connor says (I can double-check since I have the AWESOME books!), then what does that say for bolter rounds? Or carapace armor (or at least their helmets)?
There's a (small) chance bolter rounds can prevent penetration. A bolt detonating outside the armor probably isnt any different from a grenade (possibly less powerful, depending on the round). Its doubtful that the shattering of Jurgen's helmet was due to the explosive effects, but mostly to stopping the bolt penetrating (some of the explosive effect could contribute, of course.)

This also assumes all Carapace is the same, which it isn't (just as not all flak is the same, really.)
Do bolts need to accelerate and boost their intial velocity after exiting the barrel?
Yep.
How are bolts targeted, anyway (is there some terminal guidance or something?)?
You could design bolt rounds that can do this (I believe it was an option for second edition) since you can for shotgun rounds (EXecutioners) and even autopistol rounds (to varying degrees of sophisticaitons). Most are simply "aim and fire", though.
If the bolts need to boost their speed with their internal rockets, does it affect their accuracy?
Probably. I think one of the big advantages of rocket propelled ammo was that it allowed you to maintain velocity and energy over distance and (probably) a flatter trajectory due to the higher thrust. But like with bullets, you do have to spin the round somehow (usually fins, I think)

I believe Gyrojet tests indicated they were generally more accurate than conventional slugthrowers over similar distances, but don't quote me on that.

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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by The Dark » 2009-07-24 10:41pm

Cykeisme wrote:even .50 BMG rounds will be deflected or stopped outright by the plates (heavy stubber fire appears to be just that, more or less), and even 20mm or larger cannon rounds are deflected (referencing the flying vehicle firing on Brother-Sergeant Learchus in Nightbringer).
Side-note here, but Imperial Armour 6 lists the heavy stubber as a long 8.25mm round (roughly .32 caliber).
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by TheMuffinKing » 2009-07-25 02:42am

The Dark wrote:
Cykeisme wrote:even .50 BMG rounds will be deflected or stopped outright by the plates (heavy stubber fire appears to be just that, more or less), and even 20mm or larger cannon rounds are deflected (referencing the flying vehicle firing on Brother-Sergeant Learchus in Nightbringer).
Side-note here, but Imperial Armour 6 lists the heavy stubber as a long 8.25mm round (roughly .32 caliber).
This is an interesting observation. I wonder if the term "heavy stubber" encompasses not only what would be considered modern LMG's but also HMG's. Descriptions from the text and artwork (not so reliable I suppose) seem to support this notion to a certain extent.

On an aside, do autocannons only include what would be contemporary weapons (20mm, bushmaster, chainguns, etc...) and modern tank guns, or are tank cannons covered under battlecannons?
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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-07-25 12:07pm

Heavy stubbers come in other calibers. In the early 40K (1st/2nd edition, Necromunda, etc.) they're depicted as HMGs. In the Ghosts novels there are .30 and .50 cal weapons (stubber and autocannon I think) And in Annitilation squad you had a 25mm stubber.
Annihilation Squad, page 613 wrote: He nods over to the other members of the com­mand squad. One of them has a 25mm heavy stubber across his shoulders, and the other two are stripping down and oiling their heavy bolters.

Like most 40K weapons a given "class" like lasgun or stubber can actually run the gamut of a number of different kinds of weapons.

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Re: WH:40k (power) armor question

Post by Cykeisme » 2009-07-30 11:43am

While it's certainly true that terms like "autocannon", "lasgun" and "heavy stubber" are very broad categories not unlike real-life terms (assault rifle, machine gun, etc), the terminology used in Annihilation Squad is still odd.

When you have 25mm automatic weapon firing solid slug ammunition, I would expect that, by definition, it would be called a 40k "autocannon".
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