Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

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Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Norade » 2009-07-16 03:39pm

Okay guys feel free to rip into these here or over there if you care to, I've been doing a passable job, but there are some gems over there that I figured were worth ripping into. I'm not sure how to dress a link here as most forums have it more automated, so if a passing mod would dress this link to the debate I'd be much obliged. Link [Done ~ NL]

Anyway here's a real gem.
I followed this thread for quite a while now and do not want to really get involved, I just wanted to say two things about these Star Wars numbers and data that is thrown around here.


1)

There is a calculation about the power of ISD turbo lasers according to the fact that they totally evaporate asteroids in ESB.

Am I the only one here thinking that those asteroids evaporate because George Lucas and his team didn't have the tech (how ironic) to make the destruction look more realistic? Something going PEW and then being not there any more is quite easy, asteroid parts exploding, flying in different directions, interacting/colliding with each other was not so easy in the old days.

Therefore, I find those calculations to prove the firepower of ISDs highly debatable.


2)

Someone linked to a site where people had this STAR WARS VS STAR TREK comparison. Okay, it was impressive, so high numbers on the Star Wars side!

Now, just one thing. There was a mention of Boba Fetts Slave I firing kiloton blasts at 480rpm. That means...I can't emphasise this enough. This means hiroshima scale destruction AND MORE in every second of shooting!

And his funny sonic charges do even higher damage, according to those charts. Boy, I have to keep my Capslock away, although it is tempting.

In the movie sequence (and those are, it seems, are very important for this stuff to star wars fans) where Slave I is after Obi-Wan in one of the newer movies, hunting it with sonic charges and blasters and whatnot - does it fething look like those blasts were 1,000,000 times as big as Hiroshima bomb explosion?* NO! NO WAY! If every little bomb of Slave I had this firepower, the whole fething asteroid field they were flying through would have been blasted away in all directions and those puny little ships, slave I and obi-wans space scooter would have been flung away like toys, because Boba Fett was apparently firing megaton blasts that detonated a few hundred meters away from his ship.

There are more cases of contradictory evidence. Reactors of big starships are supposed to be in the tera-giga-whatnot scale. In the movies, when they explode, there is just a little "Pop" compared to what should happen when one of these reactors is destroyed and the energy (and the munition of all the gigaton weapons) is set free.

The whole space area and a few near planets would be engulfed in the explosion.


My final statement is: Star Wars numbers and Star Wars movies are VERY inconsistent, therefore I personally politely refuse to accept any "facts" posted here about Star Wars technology and firepower as true and real.


(I'm not on the side of 40k here. I'm on no side. It's just that Star Wars and those "OMG TERAGIGAPOWATON" numbers get the engineer in me steamed up.)

Witzkatz out.

* Hiroshima bomb: 13 kilotons
seismic charge mines: 12.000.000 kilotons
This one is just target practice to get you warmed up.

NOTE: The thread is locked due to my 'heated' comments to others but may be reopened.
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Samuel » 2009-07-16 03:54pm

Am I the only one here thinking that those asteroids evaporate because George Lucas and his team didn't have the tech (how ironic) to make the destruction look more realistic? Something going PEW and then being not there any more is quite easy, asteroid parts exploding, flying in different directions, interacting/colliding with each other was not so easy in the old days.
You mean... like Alderaan? Or the Death Star?

Needless to say this is irrelevant- we can also do calculations of the Death Star and scale down or BDZ.
does it fething look like those blasts were 1,000,000 times as big as Hiroshima bomb explosion?* NO! NO WAY!
Welcome to space. Argument from personal incredulity are worthless by the way.
Reactors of big starships are supposed to be in the tera-giga-whatnot scale. In the movies, when they explode, there is just a little "Pop" compared to what should happen when one of these reactors is destroyed and the energy (and the munition of all the gigaton weapons) is set free.
Did you miss the massive explosion when the Executer hit the Death Star?
Star Wars numbers and Star Wars movies are VERY inconsistent, therefore I personally politely refuse to accept any "facts" posted here about Star Wars technology and firepower as true and real.
Real life technology is relatively inconsistent. DO you ignore horsepower ratings for cars?
It's just that Star Wars and those "OMG TERAGIGAPOWATON" numbers get the engineer in me steamed up.)
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Norade » 2009-07-16 04:10pm

This was my response.
Witzkatz wrote:There is a calculation about the power of ISD turbo lasers according to the fact that they totally evaporate asteroids in ESB.

Am I the only one here thinking that those asteroids evaporate because George Lucas and his team didn't have the tech (how ironic) to make the destruction look more realistic? Something going PEW and then being not there any more is quite easy, asteroid parts exploding, flying in different directions, interacting/colliding with each other was not so easy in the old days.

Therefore, I find those calculations to prove the firepower of ISDs highly debatable.
That isn't how things work, you can't say that if they had more budget things would have been X or Y, you have to use what is on screen for this debate as outlined in LucasArts official canon policy. Just because you don't feel something is realistic doesn't mean that is not how it happened. As well we have other sources, namely the oft mentioned Revenge of the Sith: Incredible Cross Sections that state the reactor output of a troop transport at 2 x10e23 watts, that is more than the entire United States used in 1995 (they used 9.53 × 10e19 Joules over the course of a year less than one shot from an Acclaators heavy guns!)

2) Someone linked to a site where people had this STAR WARS VS STAR TREK comparison. Okay, it was impressive, so high numbers on the Star Wars side!

Now, just one thing. There was a mention of Boba Fetts Slave I firing kiloton blasts at 480rpm. That means...I can't emphasise this enough. This means hiroshima scale destruction AND MORE in every second of shooting!

And his funny sonic charges do even higher damage, according to those charts. Boy, I have to keep my Capslock away, although it is tempting.

In the movie sequence (and those are, it seems, are very important for this stuff to star wars fans) where Slave I is after Obi-Wan in one of the newer movies, hunting it with sonic charges and blasters and whatnot - does it fething look like those blasts were 1,000,000 times as big as Hiroshima bomb explosion?* NO! NO WAY! If every little bomb of Slave I had this firepower, the whole fething asteroid field they were flying through would have been blasted away in all directions and those puny little ships, slave I and obi-wans space scooter would have been flung away like toys, because Boba Fett was apparently firing megaton blasts that detonated a few hundred meters away from his ship.

There are more cases of contradictory evidence. Reactors of big starships are supposed to be in the tera-giga-whatnot scale. In the movies, when they explode, there is just a little "Pop" compared to what should happen when one of these reactors is destroyed and the energy (and the munition of all the gigaton weapons) is set free.

The whole space area and a few near planets would be engulfed in the explosion.

So this comes down to you saying that you're unwilling to believe the numbers because they're too high for you to understand and your expectation that a reactor will always explode when breached. First off some asteroids release as much energy as that and they don't 'engulf the planet' though they do cause climate change on a wide scale when they hit the earth. You also have the expectation that a teraton is a huge amount on the grand scale when it really isn't, if you think one TT will clear an asteroid field what do you think a neutron star or a super nova could do? They contain far more energy and can't even destroy everything in a solar system.

I bet you're they type to think that a reactor in a nuclear sub will make a mushroom cloud if the ship is hit by a torpedo... Please educate yourself and quit arguing that the numbers just don't 'feel' right and do some research on the subject instead of just whining that they don't look right without having anything besides your say so to back yourself up.
My final statement is: Star Wars numbers and Star Wars movies are VERY inconsistent, therefore I personally politely refuse to accept any "facts" posted here about Star Wars technology and firepower as true and real.

(I'm not on the side of 40k here. I'm on no side. It's just that Star Wars and those "OMG TERAGIGAPOWATON" numbers get the engineer in me steamed up.)

Witzkatz out.
You claim that they're inconsistent, yet you have given not one fact on the issue and have thrown out only wild asses guess based on nothing. If you claim that a million Fat man bombs can destroy a planet find the math to back you up. Also your whinning in another post about hwo the numbers don't add up to the way you see things is dishonest as you provide no proof besides your feels (Awe I'm touched) and have obviously not done any math on the subject.

Yeah, I believe that you're an engineer with a doctorate such as Darth Wong (The owner of Stardestroyer.net) or maybe even an Astrophysicist like Curtis Saxton (Co-author of the RoTS:ICS)...

----------------------------------

Apparently my response was too harsh as it was the cited reason for the thread being locked. I thought I was being nice. XD
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Darksider » 2009-07-16 05:15pm

It sounds like they're using that patented SB.com "That just doesn't look right to me" method of analysis that Darth Wong is always talking about.

Never mind that the destruction of asteroids in the chase scene is completely consistent with the ICS, it doesn't look like Hiroshima-level explosions to me!
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Norade » 2009-07-16 05:58pm

Yeah, read the thread, even the smart ones know next to nothing and have no numbers. I did force a concession out of one guy though, so at least they're a half step above SB.
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Batman » 2009-07-16 06:10pm

Nevermind the fact that most Wars weapons don't USE ammunition, leave alone highly volatile ones, what has the reactor power got to do with the size of the explosion? Not that we see capital ships blown up all that often or all that close in the films to begin with.
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by NecronLord » 2009-07-16 06:18pm

From my brief read of that thread, it seems to be typical 'no way, I know what an atomic explosion looks like' stuff. That's hardly notable.
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Norade » 2009-07-16 06:26pm

The end posts and the first pages before I stepped in were like that as well as useless +1 'Spess Marhines Are teh Win' posts. But even once I started some actual debate they never had numbers and showed no use of any skill what so ever in analysis of their favored universe. Look at how many times I asked for answers to easy querstions before I found something relevant.
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Lord Relvenous » 2009-07-16 06:52pm

Really though, what do you expect from a 40K oriented site? 40K fans have never really had much of a need to try to quantify anything, so the process is going to be unfamiliar to many of them, and then there's the fact that they have a natural bias towards their chosen hobby. The same thing happened when I engaged in a debate with multiple members at 40kforums.
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Serafina » 2009-07-16 07:00pm

To be fair, it is way easier to analiyze Star Wars (having visuals to analyse) than 40K, especially with the huge inconsitiency of 40K.

Oh, and i have one major complaint:
You argue that the warp may not work in the Star Wars galaxy, due to there being no evidence for its existence.
While this is true, you are violating one major VS-debating rule: Power of one faction work against the other faction (until proven otherwise) and in every universe, no matter if "special requirement X" does exist there.

Basically, you are dismissing it due to a lack of evidence, when there can not possibly be ANY evidence (after all, there are no crossover movies).

Otherwise, you are doing a pretty good job, as far as i can see.
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Stark » 2009-07-16 07:19pm

There's arguably a difference between saying '40k FTL/warpguns/teleporters won't work because there's no warp' (which is probably a bit dodgey) and saying 'xyz 40k warp-based magic/demons whatever won't work because there's no warp demons/eye of terror/plot contrivance (which might be arguable).

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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Batman » 2009-07-16 07:28pm

Is there? From what I can tell the Warp is an integral part of how 40K technology and society WORK. Denying them that is about the same as denying Wars Hypermatter or Tibanna gas. It's not like there's evidence for that existing in 40K, either.
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Norade » 2009-07-16 07:31pm

I said that it was a possibility that should be considered and added it as a sort of side point as he claimed that the Force = the Warp. While it is dodgy there was no OP specified scenario and in the end we decided that both galaxies ended up sitting core above core nearly overlapping. I think that I was well in within acceptable debating form to show that they had no technological counter if their magic stopped working.

As for warp daemons, I was wondering what those who know 40k here would say to the question of whether energy shields stop energies from the warp from entering? It seems that Geller field is an energy field and given that it seems there are gaps in 40k shields versus Star Wars fully encasing shields they might offer some protection. The same might go for ECM. I've also argued that the Force has a will of its own and may oppose the Warp in the same way as the GoM. My evidence for a thinking force is the Son of Suns prophecy coming to pass as foretold.

EDIT: Tibanna and Hypermatter can be brought along with them, can the IoM bottle the warp?
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Aaron » 2009-07-16 07:37pm

Batman wrote:Is there? From what I can tell the Warp is an integral part of how 40K technology and society WORK. Denying them that is about the same as denying Wars Hypermatter or Tibanna gas. It's not like there's evidence for that existing in 40K, either.
Well it's a little more complicated then that. From what I can gather from WH40K's back story, the Warp has always been round but the Chaos God's have not. They were born at various times and if the Warp is present in SW then the God's may not be which somewhat limits what can be done. Daemons and other warp gribblies should still be around what ever the era though, as Warp travel goes back a long way in 40K.
As for warp daemons, I was wondering what those who know 40k here would say to the question of whether energy shields stop energies from the warp from entering? It seems that Geller field is an energy field and given that it seems there are gaps in 40k shields versus Star Wars fully encasing shields they might offer some protection. The same might go for ECM. I've also argued that the Force has a will of its own and may oppose the Warp in the same way as the GoM. My evidence for a thinking force is the Son of Suns prophecy coming to pass as foretold.
Gellar fields create a bubble of real space around a ship, they don't appear to be similar to SW shields given that 40K uses void shields as well.
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Stark » 2009-07-16 07:37pm

Batman wrote:Is there? From what I can tell the Warp is an integral part of how 40K technology and society WORK. Denying them that is about the same as denying Wars Hypermatter or Tibanna gas. It's not like there's evidence for that existing in 40K, either.
Do try to read. I -just said- there's a difference between claiming abc example of warp-based tech won't work and arguing that warp-based phenomena might be different. There is very obviously no demons, no eye of terror, no giant evil deathgods, or any of that stuff in the SW galaxy, which actually does mean actual things for 40k (like Imperium ships may be very, very slow given they can't see the lighthouse of pharos Emperor's warp dick).

This is IN NO FUCKING WAY the same as 'denying' SW hypermatter, since that's manufactured and moveable. Sure, you could argue that 40k crap like tentaclebeasts and chaos cults would eventually infiltrate SW and create devilgods and warp-soaked areas, but the whole fucking point is that there's none of that shit now. This doesn't mean squig cannons don't work, or other warp-based tech won't work; but anything relying on close synergy between warp-based ENTITIES and technology may indeed suffer from the distance until the SW galaxy is chaos-ified.

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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Batman » 2009-07-16 07:54pm

Either the Warp exists or it doesn't. If it DOES then so do all related phenomena.
If you're merely arguing they apparently don't exist IN THE STAR WARS GALAXY, I never claimed that.
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Stark » 2009-07-16 08:00pm

Batman wrote:Either the Warp exists or it doesn't. If it DOES then so do all related phenomena.
If you're merely arguing they apparently don't exist IN THE STAR WARS GALAXY, I never claimed that.
What are you TALKING about?

This is like saying, before the Eldar fall, Slaneesh exists. Because, hey, if the warp exists, SO DO ALL RELATED PHENOMENA. There is nowhere that has the warp that doesn't have the Emperor.

Oh wait that's totally retarded, and my point stands.

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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Batman » 2009-07-16 08:11pm

I'm talking about the Warp manifestly existing, or else this Vs is pointless (WITHOUT the Warp 40K doesn't have FTL to begin with).
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'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Stark » 2009-07-16 08:13pm

AND NOBODY HAS DISPUTED THAT, you little turd. The post of mine YOU FUCKING QUOTED clearly shows that there is a DIFFERENCE between saying 'the warp exists in order to allow xyz techs to work' and 'the warp exists ergo the vast litany of warp stuff all works exactly the same even though it's reliant on other things, proximity, influence of malign demons etc THAT DO NOT EXIST'. It's not my fault you're a fucking moron.

In the SW galaxy, the Imperium ships will not be able to see the astronecropathocrom or whatever it is that allows them to navigate. Do you SERIOUSLY dispute this?

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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Brother-Captain Gaius » 2009-07-16 10:09pm

Not to be pedantic, but Imperium ships would probably be faster without all the 40k-verse baggage. It's the chaosification of the warp that slows everything down as Navigators have to pick and choose their way through every little current like one huge intergalactic minefield. In a 'clean' warp, it's smooth sailin'.
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Cykeisme » 2009-07-16 10:24pm

Hurk.. I always hoped it would never come to this.

SW and 40k are my favourite fictional universes, and I've managed to apply SoD to 40k by being somewhat selective (not a good approach I know).

One thing is obvious enough, though.. even if the individual ships were within the same order of magnitude in power generation and firepower, SW would overpower 40k with their sheer industrial might. Their speed of production of warships and crazy shit like Death Stars is just too fast.

True, the IoM is fettered by the Adeptus Mechanicus' politicking and crap, but those are the breaks. They build stuff too damn slow.
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Stark » 2009-07-16 10:34pm

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:Not to be pedantic, but Imperium ships would probably be faster without all the 40k-verse baggage. It's the chaosification of the warp that slows everything down as Navigators have to pick and choose their way through every little current like one huge intergalactic minefield. In a 'clean' warp, it's smooth sailin'.
OH YEAH! Without all the 'warp storms' and crap they woudln't even need the Astrocrominecropath. Good call!

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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Norade » 2009-07-16 10:49pm

Do we know how much faster they could go without the chaotic nature of their universe's warp energies?
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Darth Hoth » 2009-07-17 06:15am

Cpl Kendall wrote:
As for warp daemons, I was wondering what those who know 40k here would say to the question of whether energy shields stop energies from the warp from entering? It seems that Geller field is an energy field and given that it seems there are gaps in 40k shields versus Star Wars fully encasing shields they might offer some protection. The same might go for ECM. I've also argued that the Force has a will of its own and may oppose the Warp in the same way as the GoM. My evidence for a thinking force is the Son of Suns prophecy coming to pass as foretold.
Gellar fields create a bubble of real space around a ship, they don't appear to be similar to SW shields given that 40K uses void shields as well.
There are multiple energy shield types in use that block out Warp powers, not just Geller fields (I think this was mentioned in Draco, quite probably elsewhere as well). Void shields are not (usually, at least) effective against physical projectiles, so they are clearly permeable to various phenomena that Wars shields would keep out.

From what I understand, back when the SW vs 40k debate was new around here, there was an assumption that Wars shields would be able to protect at least somewhat against it, given that they work against energy from other dimensions/universes in their own universe (subspace and hyperspace). Now, with the differences between these dimensions and the Warp, whether you agree with this interpretation or not it would be inherently unprovable.

If energy shields were not to work, thought, that does not leave Star Wars helpless. Thank to Zahnite plot devices ysalamari, there is a way to kill the Force, which is arguably more similar to the Warp. While this would have a negative impact on Dark Jedi and whatnots, the Imperium is much more dependent on psychics than the Empire is.

Oh, and the argument quoted in the OP was stupid. Typical mindless, gut-feeling minimalism.
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."

-George "Evil" Lucas

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Serafina
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Re: Star Wars vs. 40k on Dakka Dakka

Post by Serafina » 2009-07-17 07:03am

Whenever i want to comparte the Force to the Warp (and psioni powers), i use the following parameters:

There actually is a Warp dimension in the Star Wars galaxy, and it works the same way as it does in 40K.
However, the Midichlorians dampen the effects of emotions on it. Thus, the Warp in SW is not as corrupted as in 40K.
Force users are weakened by this (they can not draw as much energy), but it also makes it much safer to use.
Basically, all living beings in the SW-galaxy are very good shielded from the warp.
It also explains effects of the dark/light side of the force: Strong emotions penetrate the Midichlorians protection.

This way, force and warp related effects can be easily compared: Both psionic blands and ysalamari block acces to the Force/Warp. A tampered warp effects both Psionicans and Force users, though the force users do not risk psychic side effects (they may get headaches, cramps and stuff, but nothing dangerous). The dark side corrups as easily as chaos.
Force effects can be countered by psy matrixes. And so on.

Of cource, thats just my explanation. It can be used nicely for crossovers and explains most effects of the Force/Warp, but no one has to use it.
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