Tau technology

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Re: Tau technology

Post by Ryan Thunder »

Ford Prefect wrote:
Raxmei wrote:Their ordinary soldiers go to battle with carapace armor and a plasma-based rifle, the sort of gear that the Imperium reserves for stormtroopers or similarly elite units.
I might point out that there are likely more Storm Troopers in the Imperium than the Tau, as an Empire, have people. Which isn't significantly difficult, as the Tau Empire is an insignificant speck of a space going polity in the 40k universe.
Yes, and every time somebody points this out I feel compelled to remind them that if the Imperium were the same size as the Tau Empire they probably wouldn't have storm troopers to begin with. So your point is, well, pointless...
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Re: Tau technology

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Ryan Thunder wrote:Yes, and every time somebody points this out I feel compelled to remind them that if the Imperium were the same size as the Tau Empire they probably wouldn't have storm troopers to begin with. So your point is, well, pointless...
And how does your point compute? The Imperium started off from Terra and Mars and some Saturnine colonies and look what happened? They steam-rolled over most of the galaxy, with the Space Marines and Imperial Guard.
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Re: Tau technology

Post by Ryan Thunder »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:Yes, and every time somebody points this out I feel compelled to remind them that if the Imperium were the same size as the Tau Empire they probably wouldn't have storm troopers to begin with. So your point is, well, pointless...
And how does your point compute? The Imperium started off from Terra and Mars and some Saturnine colonies and look what happened? They steam-rolled over most of the galaxy, with the Space Marines and Imperial Guard.
Actually, I was assuming (perhaps without cause) that he was attempting to make a technological comparison based on the idea that the Imperium has special forces that are larger than the Tau ground army.

Which would be stupid, but it's entirely possible that he wasn't.
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Re: Tau technology

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

Ryan Thunder wrote:Actually, I was assuming (perhaps without cause) that he was attempting to make a technological comparison based on the idea that the Imperium has special forces that are larger than the Tau ground army.

Which would be stupid, but it's entirely possible that he wasn't.
Storm troopers are more elite regiments in the Imperial Guard. Special Forces either go to the Space marines, or some of the more exotic assassins cults out there.
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Re: Tau technology

Post by loomer »

A fitting analogy would be US Rangers compared to the Delta Force - they're both elite units with significant prestige, but one is much more selective and capable than the other.

Even the regular US Army compared to the Marine Corps could serve as a similar contrast. While they differ in role, they also differ in training. (and to further the stormtrooper comparison, the USMC is bigger than some nations entire armies.)
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Re: Tau technology

Post by Connor MacLeod »

*heaves sigh*

I've got some hefty computer problems at the moment, which is why my updates and such are in abeyance (and hopefully not destroyed.. I have months of stuff stored up I would scream if I had to re-add..) but I'll try to simplify Tau tech vs Imperial tech to certain, salient points:

Tau technology is not neccesarily superior all around to Imperial tech. Certain technologies are: their weaponry is longer ranged and packs more punch (conventional weapons at least), for example. What is really important to note is that as a rule, they tend to be more consistently better equipped than the Guard. A Guardsman's kit will vary from world to world, the consistency and quality of the supply base and supply lines, how much of an asshole the Munitorum officials are (they value tech more than people), and so on and so forth. As IO covered, the Tau are close to their supply bases, relatively speaking, whereas the Guards have to be adaptable/flexible in terms of industry.

Also, consider that the huge numbers of potential tropos the Imperium has also means they must spend more to equip and fight troops, so they have to make some compromises (wheras the Tau have fewer troops - less to spend on them, but also they need to preserve their troops more because they can't afford losses.)

Tech, though, isn't always all-around better. Tau armour isn't demonstrably more impressive than Guard armour usually (inferior to Storm trooper carapace, by observation.) Examples of this lie in the novels kill team and fire warrior the latter of which is from a tau perspective. They do have stuff like infreared sensors and integrated comms in their helmets which the guard may or may not have (low light/infrared tech again varies - some troops could have it, but others may only have it in cetain forms - such as in magnoculars or rifle scopes.) There are helmet attachments for the Guard that do match auspex/infrared/low light capability though (Cadian artwork from various GW sources, The novel The Killing ground, IA4 the Anphelion project, etc.) In Cain's case, he's never seen/been issued with helmet mounted gear (nor have his troops) but he knows/has seen auspex units. Generally, his regiment was a armoured fist squad, so thy had Chimeras and Sentinels all of which had their own auspex. From a munitorum stnadpoint, giving each troop auspex would be a waste (if needed they could just give them handheld scanners which we know exist from myriad sources.) And we already know about Micro-beads.

Also remember that the Tau do not have an assholish monopolizing Adeptus Mechanicus who insist that technology of all kinds is their sole province. They make the Munitorum look saintly. We know the AdMech are stingy about sharing new tech unless their lives are at risk, and they always reserve the best or themselves. (And think nothing of sacrificing whole regiments or armies to recover one bit of tech - they're very manipulative bastards.) HEll they don't even share with each other....

Note that Battlesuits also fall into the "not all around superior" category. For the most part they're designed as mobile heavy weapons platforms (the equivalent ofa Guard HW team, really) either antipersonnel or anti-tank. They're not super-durable (cf Kill Team) but they have alot of firepower and range. Their tanks are more like armour/gunship hybrids (slower than vultures butmore heavily equipped) and they have no true tanks. Or true artillery for that matter (they make use of their Hunter Killer missile equivalents.) But their vehicles are more consistently integrated too, like their tech.

Which brings me to tactics. Tau tech is meant to match and exploit tAu doctrine, which I have also covered, but sums up as a.) being highly mobile b.) having alot of long range firepower to deliver, c.) being cautious, patient, sneaky, and overcomplicated bastards. Which can be enough to allow them to give the Imperials a headache obviously, but often this depends on the Tau having a number of factors go their way also, as numerous encounters (cf Taros) demonstrate. Tau can have problems on the offensive, and they lack a certain level of flexibility and their sensitivity to losses is considerably higher (absurdly high by 40k standards.)

Mind you, the recent Ork codex does demonstrate the Taus got themselves fucked over by the Orks, so their high tech doesn't always work out... Ususually TAu tactics and strategy depend on having alot of information, alot of time, and sometimes a stupid enemy. And if they can't get those, they try to get them.
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Re: Tau technology

Post by Connor MacLeod »

note that if you were to throw other forces at the tau than what we saw the Imperials try so far (which are, for htem, trifling efforts), the story would be different. CF: forces deployed at ARmageddon, or the Sabbat Worlds Crusade, for example.

Hell, even on an individual basis, forces such as those used in novels like, say, Dark Apostle (the Elysian forces there) or just now in "Gunheads" would likely make a huge difference.
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Re: Tau technology

Post by Zor »

On the grounds of ammunition logistics, Bolts are going to be a bigger logistical constraint than ammunition for pulse rifles. A plasma rifle could probably be powered using simple hydrogen or deuterium extracted from water, while each Bolt is a fairly complex device in of itself.

One thing that interests me would be usage of Imperial technology by the Tau forces. I remeber reading that Gue'vesa forces employ Sentinels armed with Battlesuit weapons, which got me thinking about things such as railgun equiped Russ tanks and such.

While we are on the subject of railguns, how good are Tau Rail Rifles?

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Re: Tau technology

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Connor MacLeod wrote:Mind you, the recent Ork codex does demonstrate the Taus got themselves fucked over by the Orks [...]
Can we ignore that? Just that? I can live with everything else, but having a high-ranking and experienced, well-known commander who specializes in fighting orks lose to an Ork so inconsequential that he didn't even get a table-top model is just intolerably lame and smacks of idiotic fanboy writers getting a free pass to do whatever the hell they want. :(
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Re: Tau technology

Post by Raxmei »

I started leafing through IA4: The Taros campaign looking for useful information. The Imperial commander knew he needed to land close to his objective to keep his supply lines short, and accordingly chose a landing zone that would get him there after crossing a mere 1200 kilometers of desert, approximately the length of California from north to south or the width of Texas from east to west.
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Re: Tau technology

Post by Samuel »

Ryan Thunder wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:Mind you, the recent Ork codex does demonstrate the Taus got themselves fucked over by the Orks [...]
Can we ignore that? Just that? I can live with everything else, but having a high-ranking and experienced, well-known commander who specializes in fighting orks lose to an Ork so inconsequential that he didn't even get a table-top model is just intolerably lame and smacks of idiotic fanboy writers getting a free pass to do whatever the hell they want. :(
Depends on how the Orks won. Sheer numbers tends to not pay attention to reputation, not to mention that given the short lives of the Tau, experienced isn't much more than one or two decades compared to however long the Orks get.
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Re: Tau technology

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Samuel wrote:Depends on how the Orks won. Sheer numbers tends to not pay attention to reputation, not to mention that given the short lives of the Tau, experienced isn't much more than one or two decades compared to however long the Orks get.
It's Commander Farsight. He's hundreds of years old, and maintains his own enclave outside of the Empire. The Orks won by "outsmarting" him, which is so utterly ridiculous as to not merely strain credibility, but throw it to the ground, stomp on it, and then put it through the shredder for good measure.
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Re: Tau technology

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Samuel wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:Mind you, the recent Ork codex does demonstrate the Taus got themselves fucked over by the Orks [...]
Can we ignore that? Just that? I can live with everything else, but having a high-ranking and experienced, well-known commander who specializes in fighting orks lose to an Ork so inconsequential that he didn't even get a table-top model is just intolerably lame and smacks of idiotic fanboy writers getting a free pass to do whatever the hell they want. :(
Depends on how the Orks won. Sheer numbers tends to not pay attention to reputation, not to mention that given the short lives of the Tau, experienced isn't much more than one or two decades compared to however long the Orks get.
Numbers but also by utilizing their unique tech (more flash gitz for one thing) and just outdid the tau and had themon the run. I so loved that. I get tired of the fact the 'tau win' mentality that develops.
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Re: Tau technology

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Connor MacLeod wrote:Numbers but also by utilizing their unique tech (more flash gitz for one thing) and just outdid the tau and had themon the run.
Unique technology? Those worthless piles of corrugated tin they call tanks? Those useless conglomerations of pipes that they call guns?
I so loved that.
Figures. :roll:
I get tired of the fact the 'tau win' mentality that develops.
What "mentality" are you talking about? The one where certain characters are competent enough that they aren't cartoonishly easy to defeat? :lol:
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Re: Tau technology

Post by Connor MacLeod »

Oh, while we're on weapons.. the pulse rifle isnt a pure plasma gun per se. Its a plasma/projectile weapon, kinda more like a SW blaster in my mind than a laser or particle beam weapon (ex: Kroot rifles use "pulse ammo" and numerous novels as well as the codex weapons descriptions describe a projectile-type weapon) It's got some advantages over a lasgun - more punch, more accurate at long ranges - but again ist not "all around" better. A lasgun is, for the most part, more versatile. You can fire it pulsed, or continuous. You can fire single shot, a burst of shots, or full auto. Some more sophisticated ones have different settings configurations. A pulse rifle is more specialized - designed more for sniping. A lasgun can snipe, go full auto ni an assault, can be recharged more readily, etc... And depending on setting, it could functoin as well as a pulse weapon (a tightly focused, sustained cutting beam on max power, for example.)
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Re: Tau technology

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Unique technology? Those worthless piles of corrugated tin they call tanks? Those useless conglomerations of pipes that they call guns?
You mean the converted Leman Russes the Orks field which are one of the best tanks in the galaxy and probably the most numerous? Or the the Bigga Shootas which can punch through Space Marine armor? Or the Flash Gitz who dedicate their lives to having the best weapons humanly possible and than one better?

The Orks are British soccer hooligans in space. They also have a society, ecology, culture- everything!- dedicated entirely towards fighting. If they can fight it, they can kill it. They are not to be under estimated.
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Re: Tau technology

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Ryan Thunder wrote:
I get tired of the fact the 'tau win' mentality that develops.
What "mentality" are you talking about? The one where certain characters are competent enough that they aren't cartoonishly easy to defeat? :lol:
No, bunk like Shadowsun magically defeating a Tyranid splinter fleet without casualties. And before you pull the "targetting the synapse creatures" card, the Imperium does that, it doesn't make beating 'nids easy, or cheap.

And that's not even getting into the hailstorm of Tau/Rogue Trader wank in Star of Damocles.
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Re: Tau technology

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Ryan Thunder wrote:Actually, I was assuming (perhaps without cause) that he was attempting to make a technological comparison based on the idea that the Imperium has special forces that are larger than the Tau ground army.
It's 'special forces larger than the Tau Empire' and I'm simply trying to demonstrate to complete disparity in scale. People say 'oh, the Tau have, on average, consistently better equipped forces than the Imperium', and while this is true to an extent, it conveniently forgets that the Tau rule an area of space that is inconsequentially small. It has a tiny population, and, as IO pointed out, its cadres operate in extremely close proximity to the very core of their civillisation.
What "mentality" are you talking about?
The one you're demonstrating now. You seem to find it completely galling that O'Shava could be defeated in battle, even though given his particular strategic mindset, aptly conveyed through his maxim 'learn to shorten your reach', plays right into the hands of an Ork warboss. O'shava disdains extreme long range combat, and actively encourages his Fire Warriors to learn and engage in close combat. Can you see why this might be a bad idea? O'shava has a cool sword but is actually pretty stupid.
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Re: Tau technology

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Black Admiral wrote:No, bunk like Shadowsun magically defeating a Tyranid splinter fleet without casualties. And before you pull the "targetting the synapse creatures" card, the Imperium does that, it doesn't make beating 'nids easy, or cheap.
Yeah, that was pretty ridiculous. The only reason I liked that at all was because the 'nids actually lost for once without inflicting irreversible damage of one sort or another. But yeah, still pretty retarded given all the other situations where more powerful forces have been obliterated outright.
Ford Prefect wrote:
What "mentality" are you talking about?
The one you're demonstrating now. You seem to find it completely galling that O'Shava could be defeated in battle
No, I find it completely galling that the Tau equivalent of a friggin Primarch got the piss taken out of him by <Ork warlord of the week>, and was having serious difficulty dealing with him, when he's never had any sort of trouble before. It has nothing to do with the Tau losing at anything in particular.

I'm sure you'd be skeptical that a Traitor Guard regiment took, say, Macragge and drove Marneus Calgar offworld, for example.
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Re: Tau technology

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Ryan Thunder wrote:No, I find it completely galling that the Tau equivalent of a friggin Primarch
This is an example of this mentality we complain about in action. O'shava isn't even on the level of Ursarkar E. Creed or Lord Solar Macharius, let alone a Primarch. Even that statment 'Tau equivalent' is bullshit. He's the Tau equivalent of a famous general, not a veritable demigod.
got the piss taken out of him by <Ork warlord of the week>, and was having serious difficulty dealing with him, when he's never had any sort of trouble before.
Would you, I don't know, stop ignoring half of my posts? O'Shava is known for instilling his troops with a greater willingness to engage in close ranged combat. He eschews one of their primary advantages of a Hunter Cadre, long ranged accuracy and precision, in favour of 'shortening his reach'. He should frankly loose every straight engagement against Orks, or any other short ranged specialist army, simply because the Tau are simply not built for that style of engagement. There is considerable irony in his translated name of 'Farsight'.
It has nothing to do with the Tau losing at anything in particular.
I find this hard to believe, going by your past behaviour in threads where the Tau come up.
I'm sure you'd be skeptical that a Traitor Guard regiment took, say, Macragge and drove Marneus Calgar offworld, for example.
I would, but Marneus Calgar isn't demonstrably incompetant at a fundamental level and Farsight is not Chapter Master of the Ultramarines.
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Re: Tau technology

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Ford Prefect wrote:
Ryan Thunder wrote:No, I find it completely galling that the Tau equivalent of a friggin Primarch
This is an example of this mentality we complain about in action. O'shava isn't even on the level of Ursarkar E. Creed or Lord Solar Macharius, let alone a Primarch. Even that statment 'Tau equivalent' is bullshit. He's the Tau equivalent of a famous general, not a veritable demigod.
Predictably, you didn't get it. He's what we have. He's not Solar Mach. But he's damn well as close as we're ever going to get to him, if the latest crop of GW's fluff is any sort of indication.
got the piss taken out of him by <Ork warlord of the week>, and was having serious difficulty dealing with him, when he's never had any sort of trouble before.
Would you, I don't know, stop ignoring half of my posts? O'Shava is known for instilling his troops with a greater willingness to engage in close ranged combat. He eschews one of their primary advantages of a Hunter Cadre, long ranged accuracy and precision, in favour of 'shortening his reach'. He should frankly loose every straight engagement against Orks, or any other short ranged specialist army, simply because the Tau are simply not built for that style of engagement. There is considerable irony in his translated name of 'Farsight'.
When he says "Learn to shorten your reach" he doesn't mean "Run into CQC like retards", which seems to be your primary complaint. He means "Train for close combat instead of neglecting it entirely. It's bound to happen anyways, we might as well be ready for it." His troops used to get a general close combat bonus because they actually bothered to train for it.
It has nothing to do with the Tau losing at anything in particular.
I find this hard to believe, going by your past behaviour in threads where the Tau come up.
The fluff is wildly different from what I'm used to, which involves pulse rifles with heavy bolter firepower, among other things. Then someone tells me its barely better than a hellgun, etc.
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Re: Tau technology

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So he's 'equivalent' in that he's 'the closest we'll ever get' even though he's NOWHERE NEAR AS POWERFUL IN ANY WAY? :roll: This is the attitude they're talking about; no, the Tau empire doesn't have anyone near a Primarch. So what? They're tiny. What they consider a high-end general or 'hero' is not necessarily what the Imperium considers such (not that famous Imperium generals are anywhere fucking near Primarchs EITHER).
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Re: Tau technology

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Ryan Thunder wrote:Predictably, you didn't get it. He's what we have. He's not Solar Mach. But he's damn well as close as we're ever going to get to him, if the latest crop of GW's fluff is any sort of indication.
And what 'you' have isn't flawless, and he certainly should never have the advantage against Orks.
When he says "Learn to shorten your reach" he doesn't mean "Run into CQC like retards", which seems to be your primary complaint. He means "Train for close combat instead of neglecting it entirely. It's bound to happen anyways, we might as well be ready for it." His troops used to get a general close combat bonus because they actually bothered to train for it.
Err, no, 'learn to shorten your reach' is a strategic maxim of his, and it refers to shortening the range of engagment so as to increase the reaction speed of the entire army. Farsight Enclave soldiers do train in close combat, but there's no escaping the fact that his entire strategic worldview is based upon limiting his own range of engagement. It doesn't mean 'run into close quarters like a retard', but it does mean 'eschew heavy use of our strong ranged capabilities', which is the entirely wrong strategy for dealing with Orks.
The fluff is wildly different from what I'm used to, which involves pulse rifles with heavy bolter firepower, among other things. Then someone tells me its barely better than a hellgun, etc.
I noticed. My problem is the irritating way in which you react to this.
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Re: Tau technology

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Predictably, you didn't get it. He's what we have. He's not Solar Mach. But he's damn well as close as we're ever going to get to him, if the latest crop of GW's fluff is any sort of indication.
Primarchs used to do things like snap bloodthirsters' backs over their knees. Lord Solar Macharius conquered a thousand worlds in 7 years. O'Shovah may be the equivalent in terms of stature to them, but only if you don't actually compare their accomplishments or abilities.
When he says "Learn to shorten your reach" he doesn't mean "Run into CQC like retards", which seems to be your primary complaint. He means "Train for close combat instead of neglecting it entirely. It's bound to happen anyways, we might as well be ready for it." His troops used to get a general close combat bonus because they actually bothered to train for it.
Rules-wise, the old O'Shovah had these special rules:
-Weapon Skill and Initiative get +1 if you want for any Tau units in the army (at a cost)
-No Ethereals or Kroot
-0-1 of each of the following: Stealth teams, Pathfinders, Hammerheads, Broadsides

Now granted the tabletop rules aren't canon, but doesn't the above just scream "lack of long ranged firepower" to you? Sorry but I'm with Ford Prefect on this one. And Connor for that matter: it's about time the Tau got their arses kicked. Maybe we'll get lucky and those two genestealer-infected Pathfinders Cain let go will cause some havoc :) .
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Re: Tau technology

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Raxmei wrote:I started leafing through IA4: The Taros campaign looking for useful information. The Imperial commander knew he needed to land close to his objective to keep his supply lines short, and accordingly chose a landing zone that would get him there after crossing a mere 1200 kilometers of desert, approximately the length of California from north to south or the width of Texas from east to west.
I admit I missed that bit amongst all the other....weirdness. Seriously, were they worried about air defenses? That's what the Astartes are for, and the Ultramarines did exactly that in a short story, albeit with Terminators.

Actually, now that I think of it, when are you going to make an analysis thread of IA3, Connor? :evil:
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