Tau technology

[fgalkin]

Also, I hate this idea that Orks are completely stupid, and incapable of outsmarting opponents. They're not the sharpest tools in the proverbial shed, but they are pretty cunning and at times surprisingly clever. I don't think I've ever seen an Ork warboss depicted as anything other than 'smarter than he looks'.

I hear that "Run towards the enemy until you can bash him with your gun/blade/fists." is an innovative approach to warfare and a sure sign of tactical genius.
Let's not forget the numerous variations on this, which include but are not limited to; "Drive towards the enemy (in cardboard trucks) until you can bash him with your gun/blade/fists.", and "Fly towards the enemy (in cardboard trucks with rockets strapped to them) until you can bash him with your gun/blade/fists." (Who would've thought?)

That's about all I've ever seen from them off the table top. The only reason they're a threat at all is because they're so mind-bogglingly hard to kill on an individual basis, and there are so fucking many of them.

Are there any examples of orks using well-thought out tactics?

Others have already brought up examples of Ork ambushes, combined-arms warfare, as well as the genius (and it IS genius, make no mistake about that) of Ghazghkull. There is also Gorgutz, who routinely outsmarts his opponents.

My own example, however, will be the Ork naval ambush in "Death or Glory". Orks using weirdboyz forced an Imperial fleet drop out of the Warp at a pre-determined location and engaged them in naval action. Caught the Navy with their pants down, too.

I am sorry that GW outgrew its Tauwank stage and let the fanboys down. I truly am. Before, we had to deal with obnoxious fanboys, now we have to deal with obnoxious and bitter fanboys.

The Tau had firepower, you prat, and it made sense because while every other lot of retards was running around beating each other over the head with swords and pointy shafts, they were building guns. If Tau firepower is wank, what the fuck do you say about Space Marines, who can magically shrug it off like it's nothing?

The Imperium has ships, Titans, hell, even Marine Dreadnoughts that have been built before the Tau became hunter-gatherers. That they could shrug off the best the Tau can throw at them is not only not wank, it is par the course.

Incidentally, if you want to see an army that uses superior firepower, how about the Imperial Guard, whose whole doctrine is built around big guns and artillery. Or how about the AdMech and their Titan legions and Ordinati?

You know what is "so utterly ridiculous as to not merely strain credibility, but throw it to the ground, stomp on it, and then put it through the shredder for good measure"? That a civilization can go from cavemen to matching the elder species of 40k in a mere six thousand years. Here's a hint, it took humans tens of millenia to reach this point.

The Tau could have pulled it off if they displayed levels of competence that would make the Moties look like a bunch of retarded children, but their technology has stagnated for centuries, too.

THAT is why I despise the Tau. Their very existence is an affront to logic and common sense.

And for the record, a Primarch could kill Farsight in an instant, yes. He might be able to prolong it with his jetpack, but it would only be delaying the inevitable. Besides that, apparently you can easily kill Crisis suits with bolt pistols. So he wouldn't really even have to try too hard...

You know, you've just confirmed something I've suspected for a while now- Tau players are sorta like Fundies or Wiccans- they are retards by definition.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Connor MacLeod]

Oh, well.. I'll deal with this bit of whining.

Unique technology?

OH, I dunno. They have teleporters. I dont recall the Tau having those. Their use of tractor beam tech (I dont remember the tau using anything like that.)

Those worthless piles of corrugated tin they call tanks?

Oh, by all means, provide the analysis to back up your assertion. Mind you,this also depends on what you are calling "tanks", since Ork vehicles can be highly variable.

Those useless conglomerations of pipes that they call guns?

Again, provide the fucking evidence. Since you're just whinging now, I'm only going to demand this once.

Figures.

See, its people like you that make me glad when the Tau get their asses kicked. You so much remind me of those rabid, bitter trekkies that keep harping on the fact they think "Trek will win trek will win!" despite the realities of the situaton, because the Tau, more or less, are the 40K equivalent of ST, because the Imperium could bloody well steamroller them without much effort. Or the Tyranids. Or Orks. Or Necrons. Or Eldar.

But by all means, keep whining about the tau. I'm sure nothing I say will change your mind.

What "mentality" are you talking about? The one where certain characters are competent enough that they aren't cartoonishly easy to defeat?

No, I'm talking about the fact they're bloody lucky most of the time. You want a case where luck went their way, look at Taros. Where it didn't, read "Kill Team".

[Connor MacLeod]

I started leafing through IA4: The Taros campaign looking for useful information. The Imperial commander knew he needed to land close to his objective to keep his supply lines short, and accordingly chose a landing zone that would get him there after crossing a mere 1200 kilometers of desert, approximately the length of California from north to south or the width of Texas from east to west.

That's pretty much where I start saying the TAu were lucky. They had a huge number of breaks for them that allowed them to win at Taros.

I havent got my analysis at hand, but the breaks thye had go along the following:

- The Tau managed to take Taros completely and utterly intact. That is, they didnt invade. THey subverted. Their forces suffered no casualities, they bolstered their troops with recruits from Taros, the planetary defenses were intact (preventing direct assault of the city) and they had the infrasturcture to prepare for a dedicated assault. Not to mention, naturally, they had "supply lines and infrastructure close at hand" which the Imperium didn't.

- they were lucky in their choice of commander. It was noted in IA3 that many of the tau commanders had considered tactics that would have fucked them over. But, luckily enough, they had a commander who had the absolute authority who knew just how to defeat them

- The Imperium just didnt give much of a flying fuck about Taros. this is the big one, and it covers so many problems. THe big one is that quite simply, the Imperial forces didn't get all the troops and equipment they were promised, and had virtually no supply line. This proved especially problematic in that they had no replacement fighters for the Navy, and it also proved problematic in that the AdMech had originally intended to commit far more fources than four Warhound titans. The Imperial Fighters I should note, were making a hUGE difference on Taros but ultimately failed due to lack of support/replacement even though the Tau had nmerical advantage there. And if the AdMech had committed more than four Titans (a couple Battle Titans and some Skitarii, say...) things would have been MUCH nastier.

Also, the lack of supply and failue to get all his assets apparently forced the Imperial commander to play conservatively (keep some forces back as a reserve) - including the Astartes, who were DRAMATICALLY under-utilized in the campaign (despite having a full company at hand.)

- there are also lots of other "breaks" they got (luck at certain points of the war, the lack of use of orbital bombardment by the Imperial forces, which was noted would have been an advantage to them, etc.) But the ones above are really the key ones.. any one of which would have significantly turned the tide of the battle. Had the Tau needed to fight for Taros, had the Imperium had good supply lines (esp fighter replacements), or had they gotten more of the forces they'd wanted, Taros could have gone very differently.

I should also note Taros it was said, represented a significant undertaking for the Tau empire in terms of military whic is interesting in a comparative manner.

Actually, now that I think of it, when are you going to make an analysis thread of IA3, Connor?

When I get through IA1 and IA2.

[Ryan Thunder]

Oh, well.. I'll deal with this bit of whining.

Unique technology?

OH, I dunno. They have teleporters. I dont recall the Tau having those. Their use of tractor beam tech (I dont remember the tau using anything like that.)

Yeah, the Imperium uses those too. I figured you were referring to something that they didn't gib off of someone else.

Those worthless piles of corrugated tin they call tanks?

Oh, by all means, provide the analysis to back up your assertion. Mind you,this also depends on what you are calling "tanks", since Ork vehicles can be highly variable.

Those useless conglomerations of pipes that they call guns?

Again, provide the fucking evidence. Since you're just whinging now, I'm only going to demand this once.

Relax, its hyperbole. They still suck though. I don't have it, but I think it was mentioned in Xenology that their equipment is, and their vehicles are, so poorly constructed that they're actually non-functional without the Orks and their latent psychic abilities to force them to work. I hate to think of what that would mean for accuracy.

Figures.

See, its people like you that make me glad when the Tau get their asses kicked. You so much remind me of those rabid, bitter trekkies that keep harping on the fact they think "Trek will win trek will win!" despite the realities of the situaton, because the Tau, more or less, are the 40K equivalent of ST, because the Imperium could bloody well steamroller them without much effort. Or the Tyranids. Or Orks. Or Necrons. Or Eldar.

Uh... yeah, they would steamroll them, because there are trillions of them and the Tau space navy is a worthless pile of dogshit compared to its competitors. What's your point?

But by all means, keep whining about the tau. I'm sure nothing I say will change your mind.

Depends on exactly what it is you're trying to change my mind about. If you want me to just accept that Tau equipment performs as shittily as it does spite of the fact that they actually held their own during the Damocles crusade, you're going to have a tough time of it.

The vast majority of their weapons systems are either relatively short-ranged, incapable of so much as fazing a Space Marine, designed to engage targets that are significantly larger and less agile than a Space Marine, or some combination of the above.

If sustained fire from a trio of battlesuit-mounted burst cannons isn't enough to put one down, a Fire Warrior team or a stealth battlesuit team certainly won't be able to do it, either, and they're even more vulnerable to return fire than an XV8. If all it takes to down a Crisis suit is a Marine bolt pistol, they'll never get a chance to fire fusion blasters or something else sufficiently powerful at them. They'll be screwed as soon as the Marines open up with their bolters.

Missile pods would allow them to fare better, but then we have those stories about Marines taking autocannon positions by frontal assault with zero losses and only minor injuries, so that probably wouldn't work either.

Have we ever seen seeker missiles used against infantry-sized targets? I've only ever heard of them being used against tanks. Even then, the tabletop rules say they're comparable to Krak missiles, and I've heard that a Marine can take a direct hit from one of those and keep going, too.

Millions of Fire Warriors? Sure, the Tau can deploy them, but if their weapons are as (in)effective as they were on that Deathwatch Marine, that might not even be enough, unless you somehow get tons of them to shoot him at the same time. Sure, you could waste Fire Warriors on them until they run out of ammo, and then go in with the Crisis suits, but would the Tau even have the fortitude to do that?

Of course, I'm not even factoring in the effects of the Imperial Guard on all this...

Seriously. Unless I'm making some kind of grevious error in my above thinking, a deployment of hundreds of Marines that laugh at pulse fire and heft bolters that mess up Crisis suits would've made the Damocles Crusade a massacre. But it wasn't.

No, I'm talking about the fact they're bloody lucky most of the time. [...]

Ah, well, yeah. I can agree with that.

[andrewgpaul]

I'm going back to Rogue Trader days here, but Ork teleporter technology was described as being significantly superior to that of the Imperium - Gazghull's chief Mekboy had teleporters that could beam Gargants down onto a planet. The Imperium doesn't field anything along the lines of Shokk Attack Guns (which generate, in effect, temporary webway tunnels!) or Mekboy speedstas with Bubble Chukkas, Pulsa Rokkits or Lifta-Droppas.

In any case, Ork field technology predates the Imperium; it's part of their instinctive knowledge, written into their genome by the Old Ones.

[Leman-russ]

I'd rather you posted them here. Because I'm pretty sure I've not heard of such a thing, and I expect it'll be the UK version of MMR you're talking about.

There similar to the MMR but don't have a list of unique special rules. I dont know of any place you can get them any more, they were released in third edition back before i stared playing 40K which was the best part of six years ago.

"realistic" Space Marines

Space Marine 90pts
WS:5 BS:5 S:6 T:5 I:5 W:4 A:4 LD:9 SV:3+

Space Marine Sergeant 100pts
WS:5 BS:5 S:6 T:5 I:5 W:4 A:4 LD:10 SV:3+

EQUIPMENT
Power Armour
bolter (stats Range 24 S: 6 AP: 4 assault 4 rending and pinning)
combat Knife ( close combat weapon)
frag and krak grenades
one marine may exchange his bolter for a plasma gun(is assault 2) 20 points /melta gun(normal rules) 10 points /flamer(normal rules) 5 points
one marine may exchange his bolter for a space marine missile launcher 20 points
which had same range and strength profiles same as normal missile launcher but became assault 2/ heavy four for both frag or krak missiles

transport rhino / razorback / drop pod (refer to codex for listings)

special rules:
and they shall know no fear, stubborn, true grit, feel no pain, and combat squads.

Not AS bad as MMR's but i can still get the whiff of cheese from my computer.

[Imperial Overlord]

Depends on exactly what it is you're trying to change my mind about. If you want me to just accept that Tau equipment performs as shittily as it does spite of the fact that they actually held their own during the Damocles crusade, you're going to have a tough time of it.

The vast majority of their weapons systems are either relatively short-ranged, incapable of so much as fazing a Space Marine, designed to engage targets that are significantly larger and less agile than a Space Marine, or some combination of the above.

If sustained fire from a trio of battlesuit-mounted burst cannons isn't enough to put one down, a Fire Warrior team or a stealth battlesuit team certainly won't be able to do it, either, and they're even more vulnerable to return fire than an XV8. If all it takes to down a Crisis suit is a Marine bolt pistol, they'll never get a chance to fire fusion blasters or something else sufficiently powerful at them. They'll be screwed as soon as the Marines open up with their bolters.

Missile pods would allow them to fare better, but then we have those stories about Marines taking autocannon positions by frontal assault with zero losses and only minor injuries, so that probably wouldn't work either.

Have we ever seen seeker missiles used against infantry-sized targets? I've only ever heard of them being used against tanks. Even then, the tabletop rules say they're comparable to Krak missiles, and I've heard that a Marine can take a direct hit from one of those and keep going, too.

Millions of Fire Warriors? Sure, the Tau can deploy them, but if their weapons are as (in)effective as they were on that Deathwatch Marine, that might not even be enough, unless you somehow get tons of them to shoot him at the same time. Sure, you could waste Fire Warriors on them until they run out of ammo, and then go in with the Crisis suits, but would the Tau even have the fortitude to do that?

Of course, I'm not even factoring in the effects of the Imperial Guard on all this...

Seriously. Unless I'm making some kind of grevious error in my above thinking, a deployment of hundreds of Marines that laugh at pulse fire and heft bolters that mess up Crisis suits would've made the Damocles Crusade a massacre. But it wasn't.

Apparently you can't do math. The Deathwatch Marine's armour took significant damage during the fight. Tau have missiles, rail guns, fusion guns, plasma rifles, and so on as support weapons that are quite capable killing Marines and that's without getting into massed and sustained pulse weapon fire or heavy fire support weapons. A thousand to one kill ratio for the Marines would only kill one hundred thousand tau. That's going to sting, but on the Crusade scale that's small potatoes. Your ridiculous strawman that Marines must die easy or the Imperium would have won the Damocles Crusade is rejected.

[Connor MacLeod]

In Kill Team, the DW marine did take some damage from the burst cannons on the battlesuits, but it wasn't really disabled by it. Let's break this down:

As I mentioned before, Tau pulse weaponry seems to be a combination of bullet and plasma weaponry. In a way its like a bolter shell (minus propellant) or more accurately an autogun or autocannon with mass reactive/exploding ammo. There is the physical impactor component (the bullet) and the plasma component. Case in point hte Kroot Rifles, which are bolt action rifles yet manage to outdo lasguns in terms of raw damage.

Now, in temrs of thermal vs kinetic impact resistance: we know that Astartes armor can stand up to low end (antipersonnel) autocannon fire (which can be around 20-30mm or so - cf Gunheads for diameter, Nighbringer for the PA resistance.) and stubber rounds (space wolf novels, Munitorum manual, various others) which can be up to 25mm or so (Annihilation Squad). On the thermal resistance, we know hotshot lasguns can penetrate power armour (First and Only), and maximum power lasgun shots can penetrate weak points (Space Marine), and 30 or so hellguns concentrated on the chestplate can melt/boil/penetrate (Short story Hunter, Prey).

Now, in temrs of the thermal output component the pulse weapons should have no problems matching hellguns (hotshots on an individual basis are iffy, but combined fire shouldn't be a problem.) BUT, and this is the key point - they seem to behave more like bullets WRT penetration, and its unlikely they have the force/momentum/KE of a stubber/autocannon round.

Normally this won't be a problem against most enemies, even lightly armored, because their armour isnt fully enclosed and sometimes isnt even all that hard/resistant (at least not against the high end ammo) so even if it fails to penetrate it can still in theory do damage. BUT, failing to penetrate is also going to reduce its effectiveness (Same way a bolter round or an exploding round would be less effective). And because Astartes armor has such high kinetic resistance, the pulse ammo is going to fare far less.

Now, the above is conditoinal upon several variants - like settings. Its psosible Tau rifles have variable "kinetic" settings - a higher power round for longer range shooting, for example. (But slower rate of fire), and it does stand to reason that they have different kinds of rifles, burst cannon, etc. (Anti-vehicle or dual purpose firing a heavier "bullet" but with a slower ROF, for example.) So penetration is possible, but here the Marine's own exceptional phyisology means that even if hurt, he can still keep going unless severely injured/literally torn apart. But the Battlesuits were caught by surprise (they were only expecting/planning an ambush of the Kill Team remember.) so they also lacked any dedicated anti-armour weapns.

Marines also carry the rather obvious drawback that while they are great as a concentrated offensive weapon, their limited numbers (typically no more than a company in your "typical" battle, if that) means that they can't be eveywhere. They're key in certain ways to victory for the Imperium, but they're not reall ysometing you would normally want to use in place of conventional soldiers.

And arguably, while a battlesuit might be inferior ot an individual marine, I'm guessing they're easier to build or field, so the qualitative superiority is offset somewhat by numerical advantages. (The opposite of the Fire Warrior vs IG idea, really)

[Ryan Thunder]

Apparently you can't do math. The Deathwatch Marine's armour took significant damage during the fight. Tau have missiles, rail guns, fusion guns, plasma rifles, and so on as support weapons that are quite capable killing Marines and that's without getting into massed and sustained pulse weapon fire or heavy fire support weapons. A thousand to one kill ratio for the Marines would only kill one hundred thousand tau. That's going to sting, but on the Crusade scale that's small potatoes.

Apparently you can't actually be assed to read my post, because all you've done is repeat yourself. Yes, the Deathwatch Marine's armour took damage--to a point. Then after that there seems to have been no further damage because his under-armour was seemingly immune to pulse fire. Unless he himself was so tough that he just absorbed it and kept on going, though it seems he was generally unharmed.

I explained why those weapons won't work. You should explain why you think they would work against man-sized targets that can easily destroy the platform carrying them with his sidearm.

Your ridiculous strawman that Marines must die easy or the Imperium would have won the Damocles Crusade is rejected.

I did not suggest that they die easy. I suggested that pulse weapons are more powerful than the case of the Deathwatch Marine would suggest.

[Ryan Thunder]

GHETTO EDIT: I also suggested that battlesuits are tougher than that story made them out to be.

[Imperial Overlord]

Apparently you can't actually be assed to read my post, because all you've done is repeat yourself. Yes, the Deathwatch Marine's armour took damage--to a point. Then after that there seems to have been no further damage because his under-armour was seemingly immune to pulse fire. Unless he himself was so tough that he just absorbed it and kept on going, though it seems he was generally unharmed.

A Marine has implanted armour and can continue to fight at full capacity with wounds that would kill an unaugmented human. His armour had suffered extensive damage, but it was still functional. It's accurate to say that the weapons fire he took before he closed was insufficient to disable him.

I explained why those weapons won't work.

No, you didn't. You made a reference to not knowing if you could use missiles against a somewhat man sized target. Railguns, fusion guns, and Tau plasma rifles were barely addressed at all and missiles certainly weren't ruled out. Considering that a Marine in armour can reach the 3 meter mark and the Tau themselves employ big battlesuits, I would think the idea of engaging a huge powered armour dude with anti-armour and heavy support weapons would occur to them.

You should explain why you think they would work against man-sized targets that can easily destroy the platform carrying them with his sidearm.

His sidearm that fires huge armour piercing explosive rockets and is too big for an ordinary human to use. Sounds like an ideal target for heavy weapons.

I did not suggest that they die easy. I suggested that pulse weapons are more powerful than the case of the Deathwatch Marine would suggest.

Then support that case. Pulse weapons damaged some of the best power armour human science is capable of producing, armour that survives autocannon fire. That's fairly impressive, certainly better than a standard issue lasgun. Your counter arguments are "pulse weapons didn't do enough damage so100 Marines=auto win" and "maybe seeker missiles can't be used against Marines" and "its not easy to use railguns against Marines" and "fusion guns are short ranged."

No shit. Killing Marines is hard. Expect heavy losses. Big fucking deal. I'm pretty sure railguns and missiles have much better range than bolters and bolt pistols. Missiles are cheap compared to Astartes. Burst cannons, pulse rifles, and plasma still work if you have enough of it. Fusion guns will work in close quarters and Marines don't have a magic waver that says they only get into close quarters when they want to.

[Raxmei]

The first part of the Taros campaign has some Space Marine vs Tau fighting. A number of space marines, including Terminators, get killed by battlesuit and hammerhead heavy weapons. Massed pulse fire was treated as a credible threat but was not explicitly the cause of any deaths.

[Ford Prefect]

Hey, you said they were smarter than they seemed and could be tactical, etc. Everything I'd seen indicated otherwise. What did you expect me to do? Agree with you that they're intelligent when from my perspective they can only barely be defined as sapient?

I expect you to not be a prick. Accept that you are wrong and move on.

And they've all built the same gun to this very day.

Prove this assertion. Oh wait, you can't! If you actually knew anything about Orks then you'd know that each of their guns is probably to some extent customised, and that do not have uniform standards of design. 'Shoota' is just a generic term for a gun of certain size, 'Big Shoota' is bigger and so on. Orks do not have technological development in the sense of a normal culture, but the actual industrial and technological base they come from will change the quality of their equipment; the Imperium lost a Forgeworld to an Ork Waaagh! and were concerned about the sort of stuff they'd start building with the high end technology and manufactoriums there.

Everybody else has a propensity to engage in melee combat (sometimes even at the expense of their ability to apply greater ranged firepower) that the Tau outgrew centuries before they built the space empire we're familiar with. The only other army that does a decent job of making use of the firepower avaliable to them is the Imperial Guard--and then they go and build Leman Russes with four guns on them that max out at 40 km/h on a good road, as if they inherited their tank design philosophy from the First world war. At least they have awesome close air support. The Eldar have speed and stealth--and then they go and use it to drop a squad of power-armoured ninjas with glorified chainsaws into the midst of the enemy instead of picking them apart from an amusingly long range with impunity. They manage to do just that in space; I have no idea what's stopping them from doing it on the ground.

All this demonstrates is a profound ignorance of the source material. This has already been spelled out to you, so I won't repeat what has been said. But for a guy who apparently only knows the tabletop, you seem amazingly unaware that both the Space Marines and Eldar are considered, for the most part, shooty armies.

Forced relevance? I see them as largely irrelevant.

This isn't just about you. That is commentary on the entire Tau fanbase and the Tau themselves.

So it's wrong of me to be incredulous that one of the most heavily armoured units I can field that shrugs off or outright avoids most firepower on the table top can be easily killed (fluffwise) by a relatively common sidearm?

Yeah, it is. The tabletop games can not possibly represent what the universe is actually capable of. In the fluff, Imperial Guard sanctioned battle psykers are described as being able to vaporise main battle tanks. In the fluff, a Grey Knight can get thrown by a Greater Daemon through a building, stand up and go back for more. In the fluff, a Chaos Space Marine can cross the room in the space between gunshots, Daemonhosts can control time and Greater Daemons can move so fast that tanks get flipped over in their wake. In the fluff, a Necron Destroyer can shoot through a Land Raider from front to back. In the fluff, the Tyranid hive mind is so powerful and determined that it can force its individual 'nids to keep moving and fighting even though by rights they should long be dead. In the fluff, Eldar Exarchs can deflect bullets with their swords and Maugan Ra can run up the back of a Tyranid bio-titan over a hundred metres long, shoot it in the eyes, jump off its face and cut open its entire length when it falls back into the hole from whence it came. Do you see the point I'm trying to make here? The tabletop rules can only vaguely emulate this stuff, and is ruled by game balance.

The vast majority of the Tau army is armed with weapons that supposedly won't even faze a Space Marine.

Welcome to the life of an Imperial Guardsman. It is not actually a bad thing to be completely outmatched by some of the mightiest warriors in the galaxy, you know. It's like being out-teched by the Necrons - just the way things are.

[Teleros]

Well, in truth, he is just lucky. A meeting with Yarrick would probably result in his being exposed for the cowardly wretch he is and shot.

Pfft. More likely Yarrick would go away with the warm & happy feeling that the Valhallan 597th have an exceptional Commissar, and Cain would go away feeling something between awe and utter relief .

The Eldar have speed and stealth--and then they go and use it to drop a squad of power-armoured ninjas with glorified chainsaws into the midst of the enemy instead of picking them apart from an amusingly long range with impunity. They manage to do just that in space; I have no idea what's stopping them from doing it on the ground.

Because of their whole "Path of the Warrior" philosophy getting in the way of the completely efficient use of their limited resources. I say completely because of course the Eldar do field an impressive number of aircraft, tanks, titans and ranged infantry - all of which, incidentally, tend to make up the bulk of their military.
That said though, those "power-armoured ninjas" are good at what they do .

So it's wrong of me to be incredulous that one of the most heavily armoured units I can field that shrugs off or outright avoids most firepower on the table top can be easily killed (fluffwise) by a relatively common sidearm?

It's called game balance vs fluff.

Their use of tractor beam tech (I dont remember the tau using anything like that.)

Don't the Tau anchor their escort ships to capital ships for warp travel using tractor beams?

If you want me to just accept that Tau equipment performs as shittily as it does spite of the fact that they actually held their own during the Damocles crusade, you're going to have a tough time of it.

1. It was the first real time the Imperium had encountered the Tau as a military opponent - thus they have only rough ideas on what to expect.
2. The Imperium was invading the Tau Empire. Guess who had the logistical & numerical advantage.
3. The Imperium actually did do pretty well until they invaded one of the major Tau septs. Combined with point 2, it shouldn't be hard to see why for example the Tau could stop the Marines used in the campaign.
4. The Imperium only turned around and went back because of the Tyranids knocking on their doorstep. Had they not, they would almost certainly have received reinforcements and then gone on to squash the Tau for good.
5. The Imperium largely underestimated the size & extent of the Tau Empire.

Imperium doesn't field anything along the lines of Shokk Attack Guns (which generate, in effect, temporary webway tunnels!)

I don't think it's a mini webway tunnel, because the snotlings aren't protected from the Warp - part of the point of the weapon really, because when they come out the other end they're going mad with terror.

[Lost Soal]

Imperium doesn't field anything along the lines of Shokk Attack Guns (which generate, in effect, temporary webway tunnels!)

I don't think it's a mini webway tunnel, because the snotlings aren't protected from the Warp - part of the point of the weapon really, because when they come out the other end they're going mad with terror.

They may be mad from terror, but their not killed by the Warp, which is what would happen if they came into contact with raw warp energy. Not to mention said energy spilling out of both ends of the tunnel, would be a rather unfortunate event for both sides.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Imperium doesn't field anything along the lines of Shokk Attack Guns (which generate, in effect, temporary webway tunnels!)

I don't think it's a mini webway tunnel, because the snotlings aren't protected from the Warp - part of the point of the weapon really, because when they come out the other end they're going mad with terror.

They may be mad from terror, but their not killed by the Warp, which is what would happen if they came into contact with raw warp energy. Not to mention said energy spilling out of both ends of the tunnel, would be a rather unfortunate event for both sides.

Not necessarily, we've seen individuals survive contact and even unprotected travel through the Warp and contact with it. (Terminators are just fine save for some minor scratches on their armor when teleporting, ships without holtzmann fields don't explode, and only turn into horrifying daemon possesed monstrosities melded with the crew after a little while . [Malus Darkblade with the Kolkoth idol in Warhammer Fantasy too, but that's straying a bit far]
I don't think that there's any justification for arguing that they go through the webway rather than the warp.

[Ryan Thunder]

Sorry, I missed this one...

What fucked the Tau over is that fact. They beat the orks one way, but the Orks came back and fought them a different way. THe same is true of what happened at Armageddon. There's nothing horrid about that.

IIRC, he got beaten using a variation of a tactic he suggested for fighting Orks in the 3rd-ed codex. Which just kicked the "fuck you" meter up another level for me. But whatever.

Oh, and there are alot of Imperial "heroes" who get their asses beaten. Yarrick got his ass kicked at Golgotha (mentioned in Gunheads. I liked the book quite a bit, btw) Macharius had his share of defeats too as I recall. You naturally never hear about them because the Imperial propoganda doesnt like broadcasting them.

Well, conceded, then.

I've never read about anything of the sort in any of the codices, though. Where would I find that sort of thing?

[NecronLord]

I don't think it's a mini webway tunnel, because the snotlings aren't protected from the Warp - part of the point of the weapon really, because when they come out the other end they're going mad with terror.

It was originally described as a transparent tunnel through the warp. The Snots are mad or dead from terror because of what they see, but normally, it can't get them.

[andrewgpaul]

Actually, going back and reading the entry in 'Ere We Go!, it's described as using forcefield technology to project a tunnel through the warp.

That may be different in detail from an Eldar webway tunnel (it's only temporary for a start), the actual construction of the webway has never been described, and the effect is pretty much the same.

[Teleros]

Actually, going back and reading the entry in 'Ere We Go!, it's described as using forcefield technology to project a tunnel through the warp.

That may be different in detail from an Eldar webway tunnel (it's only temporary for a start), the actual construction of the webway has never been described, and the effect is pretty much the same.

Perhaps orky gellar field technology?

[Falkenhayn]

Actually, going back and reading the entry in 'Ere We Go!, it's described as using forcefield technology to project a tunnel through the warp.

That may be different in detail from an Eldar webway tunnel (it's only temporary for a start), the actual construction of the webway has never been described, and the effect is pretty much the same.

Perhaps orky gellar field technology?

Wouldn't suprise me if Orks don't need Gellar Fields. Word Bearers can transit the warp without them, because of their demonic pacts and patrons. Gork and Mork may well beat the shit out of warp entities who trifle with the Boyz.

[Raxmei]

I took another look at the planning stage of the Taros Campaign. This is the full explanation of why the Imperial general chose to land in a barren desert 1200 km from the objective:

Tarokeen and its immediate hinterland, the Iracunda Isthmus, would be the strongest defended part of the entire planet. A direct assault,[sic] under the guns defending the city would invite disaster. Too many enemy ground forces would be waiting for them,[sic] too many orbital defences could threaten the invasion fleet. The direct approach was disregarded as too risky.

The invasion site chosen was covered by a single defence missile site with two silos and a hydra emplacement. It was destroyed by a company of space marines at the cost of one dead and twenty wounded. The later Imperial Guard landing went completely unopposed.

[PainRack]

Here's a question. How is Tau technology when compared with the Squats?:D

[white_rabbit]

Here's a question. How is Tau technology when compared with the Squats?:D

Nothing special.

Even if the Squats are kinda weird with how they employ their technology, the Squats canonically (dunno how it might apply with the squats being munch and all, but they are referenced in Inquistion war.....) have the "holy grail" of power generation as far as the Imperium is concerned, i.e. Warp fission/tap.

Pretty much everything "tech" the Imperium has, the Squats can manage, barring the estoric/highly limited stuff, and probably the extensive range of psyker related tech. Theres no real reference to such in their fairly limited fluff, and they have a tiny tiny proportion of Psykers, (or had)

The Tau take a different approach, so they have different technologies

[andrewgpaul]

I think things the Squats did are still canon, it's just that no-one mentions that it was the Squats that did it. IIRC the Contagion of Ganymede is still canon, for instance, which was the unfortunate result of the AM trying to replicate Squat Warp Core generators.