Tau technology

[NecronLord]

Pretty much everything "tech" the Imperium has, the Squats can manage, barring the estoric/highly limited stuff, and probably the extensive range of psyker related tech. Theres no real reference to such in their fairly limited fluff, and they have a tiny tiny proportion of Psykers, (or had)

Err. I'm pretty sure they're all psykers; but it only kicks in if they live long enough to become living ancestors.

[Cykeisme]

The Squats haven't exactly been retconned out of the picture, but for some reason GW has sidelined them out of the fluff, haven't they? Not sure what the situation on that is.

Being incredibly stubborn (out of universe) and hanging on to the idea that the Orks are backward and stupid is probably exactly the reason why the Tau there got their butts kicked by greenskins there (in universe).
The irony is tangible.

Btw Connor, I'm surprised I haven't seen the similarities between Trekkies and Tau fanboys. Good insight on your part there, mate

[NecronLord]

The Squats haven't exactly been retconned out of the picture, but for some reason GW has sidelined them out of the fluff, haven't they? Not sure what the situation on that is.

Squats existed. Then they got eaten by Tyranids. So, a few exceptions aside, they're gone.

[PainRack]

Nothing special.

Even if the Squats are kinda weird with how they employ their technology, the Squats canonically (dunno how it might apply with the squats being munch and all, but they are referenced in Inquistion war.....) have the "holy grail" of power generation as far as the Imperium is concerned, i.e. Warp fission/tap.

Pretty much everything "tech" the Imperium has, the Squats can manage, barring the estoric/highly limited stuff, and probably the extensive range of psyker related tech. Theres no real reference to such in their fairly limited fluff, and they have a tiny tiny proportion of Psykers, (or had)

The Tau take a different approach, so they have different technologies

Errr..... Barring pyschic weaponery, isn't the Squat fundamentally equal in technology, with various areas being more advanced such as warp power?

[white_rabbit]

Err. I'm pretty sure they're all psykers; but it only kicks in if they live long enough to become living ancestors.

I like to look at it from the perspective that only those who are psykers/have the potential live that long *shrug* on a tangent I don't really like Living Ancestors, its a bit too much Warhammer fantasy dwarves shoehorned in.

Errr..... Barring pyschic weaponery, isn't the Squat fundamentally equal in technology, with various areas being more advanced such as warp power?

They share the same technology base, and have stuff the Imperium doesn't, yes. I'm trying to be careful in my wording here, because frankly the Squats might not be crippled by the Ad-mech, but the Imperium has access to, and can reproduce stuff that isn't represented in Squat technology. i.e. The lexicon of psyker related stuff, Vortex weapons, cyclonics, the various weird biological and cybernetic techs, Terminator armour, (Exo-armour is effectively the precursor to Termi-armour), teleportation blah blah. Another problem is of course that the Squats were initially more like Ogryns and Ratlings, and you could have them in the Imperial Guard, then second edition tried to pull them out of such close orbit of the Imperium.

Difficult in my mind to segregate the Bikers from the Dwarves, and I don't think theres enough info on the Squats to say that they don't have some of the techs I've mentioned, hence my arse covering. Plus GW are slowly robbing the Squats shit to make new Imperium only toys, the Thunderfire cannon was originally a giant, multi-barreled squat gun that they nailed down somewhere on the battlefield, complete with gravity impellers instead of EM. Now its a much, much smaller weapon system that the Space marines get to themselves, I'm working on the theory that its the result of a Mole Mortar and a Squat Thunderfire cannon getting it on.

[The Yosemite Bear]

My second Marine Chapter (Rodent Guard, not the Aztec Marines) has a lot of Squat influence in their fluff since their home world is devestated from massive bombardment turning it into a death world, they have been scavving lots of ruins to make their own gear. Thus the fact that their attack bike squads and thunderfire batteries are actually Trikes, not to mention their missile launchers are designed to be mole mortars.

[Connor MacLeod]

I find it personally difficult to believe that the Tyranids could have comprehensively wiped out the Squats. Destroyed them as an independent power, yes, I could see that, but not eradicate the race.

1.) We know from the Inquisition War novels that both male and female Squats traveled extensively (Grimm got married, after all). Nevermind we've known all along that Squats have served along with the Guard (which probably means they travel all over and its hard to get back.) I got the distinct impression from Space Marine that some Squat Worlds may be scattered about the Imperium as well (the ones Sagramoso were dealing with seemed to be, at least - I doubt pirates would have their own navigator which means they are limited in how far they could realistically operate.)

2.) The Imperium has on a number of occasions demonstrated the ability to (with preparation at least) evacuate large numbers of people off planets using their starships (both in transports and their own ships) - especially when it comes to the Tyranids. I find it rather hard to believe the Squats could not similarily evacuate their planets if faced with an oncoming Tyranid horde, as it is also unlikely they could just "take them by surprise" as any sizable Tyranid fleet sufficient to wipe out the Squats would have a massive "shadow in the warp" effect (nevermind anything the Imperium warned them of)

Its doubtful the Squats had no space ships of their own (commercial if not military) and even if they didn't I doubt the Imperium would not assist the Squats, if for no other reason than to deny the Tyranids more fuel for the fire. Hell, I'm pretty sure the Imperium helped the Ratlings after Abbadon attacked their homeworlds during the prelude to the Gothic war....

3.) The Squats to my memory had thousands of worlds, easily. To wipe them out, the TYranids would have to attack simultaneously across a huge swath of spacee. They probably could achieve this reasonably well, but irrespective of other factors (preparation, evacuation, ,Imperial aid) the Tyarnids would need at LEAST hundreds if not (more liekly) thousands of ships for EACH world, meaning that in essence they would need to commit more or less a Hive Fleet to the destruction of said Squats (Again, this meshes with wha tI can remember from the Tyranid codexes about the Tyranid attacks on the Imperium proper) and even then they wouldn't immediately wipe them out unless they achieved total suprrise or somehow totally decpaitated the Squat governments (both unlikely.)

What I envision as liekly happening is that the Tyranids basically attacked the Squats, crippled them severely, and they got absorbed into the Imperium. Even if a large chunk of their population survived, they'd merely be absorbed into the Imperium as a whole (in addition to all the squats who were off world at the time, s erving in Regiments, or may have settled other worlds.) and thus they'd no longer exist as a separate entity (They'd just be more abhuman sthe way OGryn and Ratlings are. We know more kinds of abhuman exist than those two types, but in game they never recognize more than those generally.) Other groups like the AdMech probably appropriated the resource and industrial/technological aspects of the Squats for their own purposes (and likely recruited/interrogated/tortured their own engineers to learn the secrets - they're dicks that way) and that may be why we're seeing the Squats "robbed" for new Imperial tech (IE the Thunderfire cannon, but also stuff like LEviathans which IIRC were originally supplied by the Squats.)

[andrewgpaul]

Plus GW are slowly robbing the Squats shit to make new Imperium only toys, the Thunderfire cannon was originally a giant, multi-barreled squat gun that they nailed down somewhere on the battlefield, complete with gravity impellers instead of EM. Now its a much, much smaller weapon system that the Space marines get to themselves, I'm working on the theory that its the result of a Mole Mortar and a Squat Thunderfire cannon getting it on.

Are you sure you're not reading a bit too much into that? It seems more like they just re-used the name. After all, "Deathstrike" has applied to at least 2, and possibly 3, entirely separate weapons simultaneously - the vehicle-launched cruise missile and the Warlord titan centreline cannon that replaced the head. There may have been a third, but I'm not sure.

[white_rabbit]

Are you sure you're not reading a bit too much into that? It seems more like they just re-used the name.

Its a high tech, four barreled gun which fires rounds using gravity impellers. Its too much of a coincidence for me.

Hell, I'm pretty sure the Imperium helped the Ratlings after Abbadon attacked their homeworlds during the prelude to the Gothic war....

The ratlings are completely different from the Squats in their final iteration, i.e. a collection of independant city states, allied into Leagues, some of which whom have massive trade agreements with the Imperium.

The Ratlings are essentially a single planets worth of little guys, who probably don't even have control of their own goverment.

I got the distinct impression from Space Marine that some Squat Worlds may be scattered about the Imperium as well

There comes a point at which Space Marine can't really be used as a source, for myself, deriving this sort of info from it is pushing it for something GW have reviled as totally incompatible with their current IP.

Squat worlds are scattered around the Imperium in the same way as any of the countless other alien polities have worlds inside what is technically Imperial space. But undoubtably focussed in the same core worlds area, which is massive enough to account for a large chunk of Imperial territory. I suppose you could argue that a robot ship or two went off course during the Dark Age, but then the guys on board wouldn't have turned into Squats!

I find it rather hard to believe the Squats could not similarily evacuate their planets if faced with an oncoming Tyranid horde, as it is also unlikely they could just "take them by surprise" as any sizable Tyranid fleet sufficient to wipe out the Squats would have a massive "shadow in the warp" effect (nevermind anything the Imperium warned them of)

Squats are essentially Dwarves in Space, even if they could evacuate, they probably wouldn't. I think the Codex Imperialis fluff text illustrates the Squat attitude towards invasion nicely. Orks land, and the guy in charge couldn't give two shits, Squat Homeworlds are inhospitable chunks of heavy metals, and the Squats themselves are so forted up and massively constructed that Squat doctrine is basically to sit inside and shoot at the screaming aliens, then sally out in giant super-trains of doom.

Stubborn arseholes + superiority complex + fragmented political situation = Dead Squats.

Its doubtful the Squats had no space ships of their own (commercial if not military)

We know the Squats have at least one type of Space craft, Overlords are based on a class of mining vessel designed to harvest metal from gas giant cores.

The Squats to my memory had thousands of worlds, easily. To wipe them out, the TYranids would have to attack simultaneously across a huge swath of spacee. They probably could achieve this reasonably well, but irrespective of other factors (preparation, evacuation, ,Imperial aid) the Tyarnids would need at LEAST hundreds if not (more liekly) thousands of ships for EACH world,

According to Ork and Squat Warlords, Psychic powers are almost unknown among the Squats, with only the very small percentage developing them and becoming an Ancestor Lord. Its entirely likely that the Squats didn't have access to Interstellar comms, even if they could manage communication with the Shadow in place.

the Tyarnids would need at LEAST hundreds if not (more liekly) thousands of ships for EACH world, meaning that in essence they would need to commit more or less a Hive Fleet to the destruction of said Squats (Again, this meshes with wha tI can remember from the Tyranid codexes about the Tyranid attacks on the Imperium proper) and even then they wouldn't immediately wipe them out unless they achieved total suprrise or somehow totally decpaitated the Squat governments (both unlikely.)

The Squat "goverments" are basically confederations of City states, its unlikely the nids could decapitate one of the Leagues, but theres also going to be the problem that they aren't going to react very fast at all.

[andrewgpaul]

Are you sure you're not reading a bit too much into that? It seems more like they just re-used the name.

Its a high tech, four barreled gun which fires rounds using gravity impellers. Its too much of a coincidence for me.

And the Squat weapon was a triple-barrelled (one main, and two smaller) heavy fixed-mount anti-aircraft gun, which dwarfs the infantry around it. I don't have a copy of Ork and Squat Warlords, so I can't check the firing method, but if the Squat weapon also gravitationally accelerated its shells, that's the only similarity.

In fact, checking 5th edition Codex: Space Marines, I don't see a reference to the Techmarine support weapon using 'gravity impellers'.

If anything, it's closer in function to the Thudd Gun (with an additional ammo type very reminiscent of the Mole Mortar) than the old Thunderfire Cannon.

[[R_H]]

Squat Homeworlds are inhospitable chunks of heavy metals, and the Squats themselves are so forted up and massively constructed that Squat doctrine is basically to sit inside and shoot at the screaming aliens, then sally out in giant super-trains of doom.

Why would the 'Nids attack them then? Don't they usually attack worlds with lots of biomass (flora and fauna)? Or were there enough Squats on the Homeworlds to make it worthwhile for them?

[Ryan Thunder]

Squat Homeworlds are inhospitable chunks of heavy metals, and the Squats themselves are so forted up and massively constructed that Squat doctrine is basically to sit inside and shoot at the screaming aliens, then sally out in giant super-trains of doom.

Why would the 'Nids attack them then? Don't they usually attack worlds with lots of biomass (flora and fauna)? Or were there enough Squats on the Homeworlds to make it worthwhile for them?

Considering the ridiculous durability of Tyranid creatures, I would suspect that they may find the heavy metals useful for growing more of them. They may need it for armour, or weapons. Just a thought.

[NecronLord]

Squat Homeworlds are inhospitable chunks of heavy metals, and the Squats themselves are so forted up and massively constructed that Squat doctrine is basically to sit inside and shoot at the screaming aliens, then sally out in giant super-trains of doom.

Why would the 'Nids attack them then? Don't they usually attack worlds with lots of biomass (flora and fauna)? Or were there enough Squats on the Homeworlds to make it worthwhile for them?

Personally, I like to imagine it's that all squats have some psionic potential; when genestealers hit 'em, they sent out a prodigeously powerful call, and the nids just came running.

[[R_H]]

Personally, I like to imagine it's that all squats have some psionic potential; when genestealers hit 'em, they sent out a prodigeously powerful call, and the nids just came running.

So it's just the psionic potential of the population of a planet that matters, not the actual resources on the planet?

[PainRack]

Personally, I like to imagine it's that all squats have some psionic potential; when genestealers hit 'em, they sent out a prodigeously powerful call, and the nids just came running.

So it's just the psionic potential of the population of a planet that matters, not the actual resources on the planet?

The Tyrannids may feed randomly, but they're still guided to new worlds by the Genestealer pyschic call.

I think the fluff has changed, but IIRC, the original fluff was that the Tyran was first hit by the Nids because of the Astronomican relay there.

[[R_H]]

So the Genestealers aren't really scouts, they're just a beacon.

Huh.

I thought the 'Nids tended to choose planets unlike the ones the Squats inhabited (Deathworlds, planets with a relatively intact and vibrant ecology).

[Ford Prefect]

The Tyrannids may feed randomly

No, they don't. They perform long distance spectroscopic analysis of stars. It's clear that the hive-mind does have goals and works to achieve them intelligently.

[The Yosemite Bear]

After all playing dice with the universe is my race's job, we do it well because we load the dice. and thus the actual reason that the squats were destroyed was because some farseer led them there, just like armageddon, and forcing a certain pirate king to come back to his craftworld, or causing the attacks on Saim Hann

[Falkenhayn]

Didn't the Tau get their ion cannon technology from the Demiurg?

[Connor MacLeod]

The ratlings are completely different from the Squats in their final iteration, i.e. a collection of independant city states, allied into Leagues, some of which whom have massive trade agreements with the Imperium.

The Ratlings are essentially a single planets worth of little guys, who probably don't even have control of their own goverment.

I'm not sure how that changes the point about "the Imperium would help their allies." The Imperium have helped the AdMech (who are part of the Imperium but are more of allies and retain their own sovereignty and territories) and the AstarteS (who also can have their own domains/planets and are more or less independent frfom the Imperium proper.)

From what I've gathered, manyn were once apart of the Imperium, then they left. That doesn't preclude them being absorbed back into the Imperium (the remnants at least.) In modern editions they would simply be "just another mutant" type, albeit a more stable one than others.

There comes a point at which Space Marine can't really be used as a source, for myself, deriving this sort of info from it is pushing it for something GW have reviled as totally incompatible with their current IP.

Certain things yes (Like the Ordo Malleus depiction), but I don't see how the squats that allied with Sagramoso would be a case, but that's more IMHO of an exception (and can be explained as someone who is only a little familiar with the Inquisition labelling all three branches as Ordo Malleus because they thought thats what it was - one cannot always ruel out human stupidity. Or maybe it was deliberate misinformation.


I should also note that for analytical purpsoes, I tend not to give a flying fuck what the "Intellectual propertY" implies, ,as this pretty much smacks of "Creator's/author's intent." and that only has a limited "in-universe" impact (it can explain, but it cannot supersede.) And in the case of GW, I rarely if ever give much attention to their iP (since it mainly seems to involve making things seem more and more desperate for the Imperium. Next thing you know Holy Terra's plumbing system will fail simply and everyone will have to don rebreathers to go out and use the privy and everyone will be forced to drink their own urine. Don't laugh. Given the setting you can totally see them doing this.) On a more serious note, I could say a good deal of what BL publishes could, in a certain interpretation, fly in the face of the IP, too. Besides which, Ian Watson is IMHO an early pioneer in the 40K MOAR GRIMDARK! philosophy (The IW novels basically read as a tribute to "MOAR GRIMDARKZ!" in my mind) which would be a welcome thing (from the IP standpoint) . That and anally-fixated sadomasochistic space marines

Squat worlds are scattered around the Imperium in the same way as any of the countless other alien polities have worlds inside what is technically Imperial space. But undoubtably focussed in the same core worlds area, which is massive enough to account for a large chunk of Imperial territory. I suppose you could argue that a robot ship or two went off course during the Dark Age, but then the guys on board wouldn't have turned into Squats!

Oh, I'm pretty sure they're highly concentrated in one area for the most part (That's pretty much goign to be required for the "Tyranids to wipe them out" bit to even have a chance of working, but I recall it being mentioned in 2nd edition stuff like Codex Imperialis too) but I don't find it hard to believe that there are more isolated/segregated enclaves elsewhere - Squats are pretty well traveled after all, and I see no reason why they wouldn't be wanting to expand/colonise as well.

And just browsing the net, it seems like when they were developed in earlier WD magazines and such they did expand and settle throughout the galaxy (there's even mention fo the Squats trying to re-discover lost worlds.)

Squats are essentially Dwarves in Space, even if they could evacuate, they probably wouldn't. I think the Codex Imperialis fluff text illustrates the Squat attitude towards invasion nicely. Orks land, and the guy in charge couldn't give two shits, Squat Homeworlds are inhospitable chunks of heavy metals, and the Squats themselves are so forted up and massively constructed that Squat doctrine is basically to sit inside and shoot at the screaming aliens, then sally out in giant super-trains of doom.

Stubborn arseholes + superiority complex + fragmented political situation = Dead Squats.

I'll have to take your word on this for now, as I can't remember where I put that book ATM. Besides which, I can see that being true from the start, ,but once a few homeworlds/strongholds get totally wiped out why the fuck would they stay the corse, stubborn or not? At the very least they'd be evacuating their important people and civilians. Unless, of course, the Tyranids magically managed to simultaneously ambush all the Squat worlds at once.

Mind you, the fact of the natuer of the Squat Homeworlds adds another layer of stupidity, but oh well...

We know the Squats have at least one type of Space craft, Overlords are based on a class of mining vessel designed to harvest metal from gas giant cores.

Good point. And there's the aforementioned expeditions, I believe.

According to Ork and Squat Warlords, Psychic powers are almost unknown among the Squats, with only the very small percentage developing them and becoming an Ancestor Lord. Its entirely likely that the Squats didn't have access to Interstellar comms, even if they could manage communication with the Shadow in place.

I can buy they may not have their own intrinsic astropaths and Navigators, but I don't see how this would change the point much. They had semi-regular contact with the Imperium to begin with (and to hear about the Tyranids from other merchants, traders, navigators, etc.) Hell, the whole "shadow in the Warp" thing would be a big tipoff.

The Squat "goverments" are basically confederations of City states, its unlikely the nids could decapitate one of the Leagues, but theres also going to be the problem that they aren't going to react very fast at all.

Not fast, no, but nor will the Tyranids, for numerous reasons (Having to find them, taking time to "consolidate" resources, rebuild troops, etc.)

[NecronLord]

I should also note that for analytical purpsoes, I tend not to give a flying fuck what the "Intellectual propertY" implies, ,as this pretty much smacks of "Creator's/author's intent." and that only has a limited "in-universe" impact (it can explain, but it cannot supersede.) And in the case of GW, I rarely if ever give much attention to their iP (since it mainly seems to involve making things seem more and more desperate for the Imperium. Next thing you know Holy Terra's plumbing system will fail simply and everyone will have to don rebreathers to go out and use the privy and everyone will be forced to drink their own urine. Don't laugh. Given the setting you can totally see them doing this.) On a more serious note, I could say a good deal of what BL publishes could, in a certain interpretation, fly in the face of the IP, too. Besides which, Ian Watson is IMHO an early pioneer in the 40K MOAR GRIMDARK! philosophy (The IW novels basically read as a tribute to "MOAR GRIMDARKZ!" in my mind) which would be a welcome thing (from the IP standpoint) . That and anally-fixated sadomasochistic space marines

They don't have much problem with the IW novels. To the point that I went into GW Liverpool today and the omnibus has been reprinted again, and is in one of the most prominent places on their bookstand, along with the DoW2 novellization.

Space Marine, on the other hand, has a much more juvenile tone in places than GW tries to aim for now. Which is much more of a problem for them than 'the grimdark.' Watson took the idea that marines are recruited as teenagers, and ran with it. You wouldn't get a character named 'Biff' in modern BL stuff.

[Connor MacLeod]

"More Juvenile?" Than a universe with chainsaw swords and space cathedrals and whatnot? Its the sense/element of absurdity that I rather like about 40K - it shouldn't take itself too seriously, after all. That was oine of the enjoyable things about Space Marine. IW on the other hand, tried to be "too" serious I think and fucked up royally.

Hell, its not as if their attempts to be "more serious" have worked as it is. The Grimdark is practically self-parodying at this point

[Cykeisme]

I find the whole xxxXxtreme GRIMDARK to be pretty cool.
The Imperium's doing fine, but if its armies fail, it'll be chewed up very quickly in a new Age of Strife, possibly worse than the original.
Billions of soldiers perishing every day, countless heroes dying, unsung.

Or do you guys figure the Imperium is, logically, in no real danger at all?

[Falkenhayn]

I find the whole xxxXxtreme GRIMDARK to be pretty cool.
The Imperium's doing fine, but if its armies fail, it'll be chewed up very quickly in a new Age of Strife, possibly worse than the original.
Billions of soldiers perishing every day, countless heroes dying, unsung.

Or do you guys figure the Imperium is, logically, in no real danger at all?

The Gold Throne's broke and nobody can fix it. The Astronomicon is failing. Three more hive fleets have popped up. The 13th Black Crusade is still to be repelled completely. The Necrons are waking up and own half the Ad Mech. I don't quite know what you mean by "logically", but it's a lot like the last scene of "The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly".

However, Captain Sicarius and 1200 SMs halted the 3rd Phase expansion of the Tau Empire, which was pretty awesome.

[Vendetta]

Not sure what the situation on that is.

They basically couldn't figure out what to do with them. There were kind of two competing design philosophies with squats, one was dwarves in space, and the other was short fat hairy bikers in space, and the range was kind of split between them without as much design coherency as they wanted for the army, and they couldn't figure out which way yo take them, or how to make the whole army work with either.