WH40k comming millenium

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

User avatar
dragon
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4151
Joined: 2004-09-23 04:42pm

WH40k comming millenium

Post by dragon » 2009-01-29 09:04am

So what kind of stuff do you think would be a welcome edition to the WH40k as the new millenium has dawned. Or at least interesting developments.
"There are very few problems that cannot be solved by the suitable application of photon torpedoes

User avatar
white_rabbit
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2039
Joined: 2002-09-30 09:04pm

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by white_rabbit » 2009-01-29 11:35am

The Tau getting their arses kicked.

I'd also like to see more Necron activity, but in the form of armies led by Necron Lords who've gone bonkers and upgraded themselves, maybe like the Setekh, so we can have a little personality to them that doesn't negate the souless killing machine angle, but doesn't require a Star-God.
Image

User avatar
Zor
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5860
Joined: 2004-06-08 03:37am

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by Zor » 2009-01-29 12:46pm

-Something happens to Hive Fleet Leviathan (either caused by the Eldar or the Necrons, both would be fine) that causes it to break up, cut down alot of it's numbers and become several Different Hive Minds which in a short binge of conquest establish their own individual territories in the milky way Galaxy, occasionally launching attacks to expand their influence, but are much more stationary now.
-The Tau Expand (both the actual Empire and the Farsight Enclave), improved navy list and an increased difference between Farsight enclave (i am thinking having the Farsight Enclave have things like Earth Caste Militia as an cheap supplement the standard Firewarrriors, distinct models for Farsight Enclave and Eatheral led Empire forces and the Farsight enclave getting a few of it's own ship classes)
-Chapter Serf Guard, a fairly common practice by space marine Chapters is to maintain forces of regular humans to do things such as defend their bases when the marines are away as well as to supplement their numbers. Chapter Serf Guard are well equipped (Hellguns and Carapace being common) and carry modified space marine chapter insignia.
-Necrons get Human C'tan Cultists/followers to supplement the Necron forces, the most successful of which are converted into Necrons themselves.

Zor
HAIL ZOR! WE'LL BLOW UP THE OCEAN!
Heros of Cybertron-HAB-Keeper of the Vicious pit of Allosauruses-King Leighton-I, United Kingdom of Zoria: SD.net World/Tsar Mikhail-I of the Red Tsardom: SD.net Kingdoms
WHEN ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE ON EARTH, ALL EARTH BREAKS LOOSE ON HELL
http://zortropolis.myminicity.com/
http://zortropolis.myminicity.com/ind
http://zortropolis.myminicity.com/tra
Terran Sphere
The Art of Zor

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27248
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by NecronLord » 2009-01-29 01:07pm

dragon wrote:So what kind of stuff do you think would be a welcome edition to the WH40k as the new millenium has dawned. Or at least interesting developments.
What?

Last I heard, the current production team has no plans to advance the timeline past 999.M41, leaving the only material written in M42 to the notes of the Cain books.

And this topic has been done before. Many times. In brief, I want the eldar to kick fifteen kinds of ass, chaos to get the stuffing knocked out of it, and the Imperium to rally against the nids. For more details look up 'Codex: Eldar Empire' using the search function.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

User avatar
dragon
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4151
Joined: 2004-09-23 04:42pm

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by dragon » 2009-01-29 01:15pm

NecronLord wrote:
dragon wrote:So what kind of stuff do you think would be a welcome edition to the WH40k as the new millenium has dawned. Or at least interesting developments.
What?

Last I heard, the current production team has no plans to advance the timeline past 999.M41, leaving the only material written in M42 to the notes of the Cain books.
Well 5th edition is set at 999.M41 and since one several authors wrote books taking place around that time frame its only a matter of time before they move on. And yeah I know the books from Black Library while the game is from Game Workshop.
"There are very few problems that cannot be solved by the suitable application of photon torpedoes

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27248
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by NecronLord » 2009-01-29 01:35pm

dragon wrote: 5th edition is set at 999.M41 and since one several authors wrote books taking place around that time frame its only a matter of time before they move on. And yeah I know the books from Black Library while the game is from Game Workshop.
No it isn't.

Originally, Rick Priestly set the timeline as equating to the current modern date, plus thirty nine thousand years. When it hit 1999, the timeline froze up at... 999.M41. Because if they advanced it into M42, it would then be Warhammer 41,000 which doesn't sound as cool.

At present, they've denied having any intention to advance the timeline. The only M42 things that are in the canon are the notes by Inquisitor Amberley Vail to the Caiphas Cain books. Sandy Mitchell is duplicating the style of the Flashman papers, a series of (excellent, everyone should read them) historical novels there, which purport to be autobiographical, and edited by the real author. As such, Amberley provides notes on the Cain memoirs from an early (I believe she's quoted sources published 140.M42 or so) forty second millennium perspective. It's the author's way of subverting the BL policy of 'nothing after 999.M41.'

From Amberley's comments, we can tell that the Tau are still around, albeit they don't seem to have become much more of a threat, the 'nids are less of a problem (it seems; books are cited reffering to tyrannic wars in the past tense) and the C'tan and Necrons are growing in power and influence. Oh, and the Emperor didn't rise from the Throne in 000.M42.

But yeah, until the studio changes considerably, 999.M41 is the cut off.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

User avatar
Kuja
The Dark Messenger
Posts: 19322
Joined: 2002-07-11 12:05am
Location: AZ
Contact:

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by Kuja » 2009-01-29 01:36pm

If it were to happen, I'd like to see some bones thrown to the good guys. The absolute crushing nihilism in 40K has gotten to the point of ridiculousness. It's always been a part of the mythos, sure, but it's gotten more and more prominent as time goes on, from "the Imperium is hanging by a thread against its myriad enemies" to "the Imperium is hanging by a thread over a pit of sharks, the thread is fraying, the Imperium's grasp is slipping, their feet are already being eatern, and the thread is being held by a C'tan. And the thread's not really there anyway."
Image
JADAFETWA

User avatar
Rye
To Mega Therion
Posts: 12493
Joined: 2003-03-08 07:48am
Location: Uighur, please!

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by Rye » 2009-01-29 06:14pm

Is there any real reason they can't just advance the date and still call the product 40k? I don't think anyone consuming the hobby or literature would give a shit.
EBC|Fucking Metal|Artist|Androgynous Sexfiend|Gozer Kvltist|
Listen to my music! http://www.soundclick.com/nihilanth
"America is, now, the most powerful and economically prosperous nation in the country." - Master of Ossus

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27248
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by NecronLord » 2009-01-29 06:18pm

Zuul wrote:Is there any real reason they can't just advance the date and still call the product 40k? I don't think anyone consuming the hobby or literature would give a shit.
Not really, no. They're just oddly bloody minded about it.

It builds up audience expectation, mind you, that the next millennium will be diffrent. With an advancing timeline, it'd just be more of the same.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

User avatar
Raxmei
Rabid Monkey
Posts: 2846
Joined: 2002-07-28 04:34pm
Location: Davis, CA
Contact:

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by Raxmei » 2009-01-29 10:23pm

white_rabbit wrote:The Tau getting their arses kicked.
The Tau getting their arses kicked in a way that makes them more interesting. A good defeat could swing the pendulum from infuriating smugness to sympathetic. Say, an Ork waaaugh and a Tyranid hive fleet hit at around the same time and between them smash up most of the Empire. The remaining free Tau are splintered, desperately trying to carve out a new empire, and by necessity relying more and more on automation. Meanwhile, many Tau continue to survive under Ork domination, and find that they have no choice but to support the hated greenskins who are now the only thing holding back the Tyranids. Some communication between the two groups is still possible by way of stealth ships. This hurts them a lot, but leaves open the possibility that they will prevail in the end. The panicked scattering also makes it easier to justify a Tau presence outside the far Eastern Fringe.
I prepared Explosive Runes today.

User avatar
Coalition
Jedi Master
Posts: 1237
Joined: 2002-09-13 11:46am
Contact:

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by Coalition » 2009-01-30 12:40am

My idea was slight ship upgrades for the different races:

Imperium: add a couple more torpedos to the various ships (so instead of 6 torpedos forward, a Cruiser now gets 8)

Chaos: Various smaller benefits from the various Chaos powers (not the full marks, but you can get more of them). Include a chaos undivided general fleet boost

Tau: More automated escorts, but combined with a randomforcements roll. Basically, you have 1/3 of your force as an elite group (lots of fun upgrades), but the remaining units are rolled via a D6 table, reflecting what the Tau forces have available in the area.

Necrons: More Lightning Whips, and an upgraded Particle Whip (1-3 = miss, 4 = 1 pt to shields, 5 = 1 pt to hull, 6 = 2 pts, 1 hits the hull, the other as normal damage)

Eldar: Warpgate equipped cruisers, with Escorts waiting in the Webway - the cruiser gets to a good point in the battlefield, and unloads a horde of escorts. They can pop out from any of the cruisers

Dark Eldar: Shadow Escorts, where you 'hide' the escorts near one of the cruisers (selected and written beforehand), and when you choose, you reveal them then.

Orks: not sure, maybe higher strength WB?

Tyranids: Modify the ship chart so one Hive ship can control an effectively unlimited number of escorts and/or cruisers, limited by points of course. However, any hit on the Hive ship can be transferred to an escort within XX range and appropriate arc. Basically, the Hive ship has its escorts fly a pattern to block enemy shots, letting the expandable escorts take the hits instead of the precious Hive ship. Since you are firing at the Hive ship, you don't get the targeting penalty of shooting at the smaller ships. The nice part is you only have to kill one Hive ship. The bad part is getting through all the small fry to kill it. A strategic option would be a growth chart, where you go from 'egg', to larvae, to escort, to Light cruiser, to Cruiser, and up to Hive Ship, which lays more eggs. An upgrade selected at a lower level must be kept as the critter grows up. There will be 'dead end' paths on the chart, reflecting choices made for heavy combat ships vs a 'Command' ship.

Space Marines: not sure, maybe SM organized defenses on allied ships (so they get a benefit in boarding combat, but not as much as full Space Marines)

User avatar
dragon
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4151
Joined: 2004-09-23 04:42pm

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by dragon » 2009-01-30 01:43am

NecronLord wrote:
dragon wrote: 5th edition is set at 999.M41 and since one several authors wrote books taking place around that time frame its only a matter of time before they move on. And yeah I know the books from Black Library while the game is from Game Workshop.
No it isn't.

But yeah, until the studio changes considerably, 999.M41 is the cut off.
Oops sorry was going off your statment from from here didn't realize it changed.
NecronLord wrote:
Lonestar wrote:Anyone look at some of the previews yet? 5th Edition Preview

Besides the "Age of Mankind coming to an end"(apperently to make way for the damn tau), the woo-woos over on the Relic messageboard say that there is a timeline that states that the Golden Throne can "no longer be properly maintained by the Adeptus Mechanicus" and that the Astronomicon is "faltering...unable to reach Ultramar".

Is GW advancing the plot? Hope so!
No. It's still 999.M41. Abaddon's Black Crusade, Ghazkull's Waagh, etc, are still front page headlines.

They're just reconning more GRIMDARK in.
"There are very few problems that cannot be solved by the suitable application of photon torpedoes

OsirisLord
Youngling
Posts: 99
Joined: 2009-01-31 05:37pm

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by OsirisLord » 2009-02-03 04:08pm

-They need to seriously fix the Ultramarines lore, it's gotten out of hand. Currently they're some kind of Roman-esque knightly order of elite alien fighters who protect the laws of Ultramar who are also distant observers but also colossal moralfags whom every other Chapter looks up to. Also the 4th edition SM codex had a section that let you create special rules for your own Space Marine chapter. Bring that back.

-They also need to cut back on the abyssal crushing grimdark of the whole thing. I understand that a nihilstic gothic inspired atmosphere will always be a part of the Imperium and I wouldn't have it any other way, but they need to go back to the style of the first edition of Rouge Trader when there is this undercurrent of dark sardonic humor that run under the whole thing, kind of like in the Ciphas Caine novels.

-The Tau need to get smacked off their high horse. The Damocles Gulf Crusade was a good start, but the Tau are still gaining new ground exponentially. Have an Ork WAAAAAGH! tear through them like at Armageddon or a tendril of Hive Leviathan fuck their shit up.

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27248
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by NecronLord » 2009-02-03 05:15pm

OsirisLord: This isn't 4chan. We take an extremely dim view of homophobia, transphobia, and similar things here. As a community, we heartily dislike the term 'fag.' Such abusive terminology has been cited as a reason to consider someone a troll in the past, though I'm fairly certain you meant it without any actual invective (such descriminatory terminology is unfortunately, becoming endemic in some areas of 40k fandom), but it is against our rules; in short, don't do it again.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

OsirisLord
Youngling
Posts: 99
Joined: 2009-01-31 05:37pm

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by OsirisLord » 2009-02-03 06:18pm

NecronLord wrote:OsirisLord: This isn't 4chan. We take an extremely dim view of homophobia, transphobia, and similar things here. As a community, we heartily dislike the term 'fag.' Such abusive terminology has been cited as a reason to consider someone a troll in the past, though I'm fairly certain you meant it without any actual invective (such descriminatory terminology is unfortunately, becoming endemic in some areas of 40k fandom), but it is against our rules; in short, don't do it again.
I'll keep that in mind next time.

User avatar
Sidewinder
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5412
Joined: 2005-05-18 10:23pm
Location: Feasting on those who fell in battle
Contact:

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by Sidewinder » 2009-02-03 11:03pm

Two design changes I'd like to make regarding the Space Wolves, Dreadnoughts, and Imperial ships.

1) Give the Wolves helmets with movable visors, like on Medieval knight's, so they can fight with the helmets on and use their heightened sense of smell.

2) Produce Dreadnoughts that look like this, i.e., having two arms mounting close combat weapons in addition to two long-range weapons where the collarbones would be, so their line of fire would not need to be readjusted whenever the arms move. Call them Mark XX Dreadnoughts or something. Balancing so these Dreadnoughts can't just ass-rape any and all of its equivalents in the other races? With the additional mass, they require special drop pods that can handle this, limiting the number that can be deployed.

3) Stop repeating the stupid "No guns on the underside of our ship? No problem! The enemy would never attack such a fucking obvious Achilles' heel!" design and mount gun turrets on the ventral surface. That "space is an ocean" meme is getting too damn tiring.
Please do not make Americans fight giant monsters.

Those gun nuts do not understand the meaning of "overkill," and will simply use weapon after weapon of mass destruction (WMD) until the monster is dead, or until they run out of weapons.

They have more WMD than there are monsters for us to fight. (More insanity here.)

Falkenhayn
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2106
Joined: 2003-05-29 05:08pm
Contact:

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by Falkenhayn » 2009-02-04 03:25am

white_rabbit wrote:The Tau getting their arses kicked.

I'd also like to see more Necron activity, but in the form of armies led by Necron Lords who've gone bonkers and upgraded themselves, maybe like the Setekh, so we can have a little personality to them that doesn't negate the souless killing machine angle, but doesn't require a Star-God.
I'd like to see a rebellion/appearance by fully sentient Necrontyr. A Union of Lords who are cognizant of the pre-Mechanization Necrontyr. Something like "We've been Janissaries for the C'Tan for 65+ Million years, and our confederates have fought and died for them so many times they've been lobotomized". 40kverse can take it from there.

I'd also like GW to carry through with the implications of new "additions" to the timeline: ie that the Four Horseman are delivering the mail in the Milky Way. Space Marine Chapters have taken on more and more administrative duties. Successor chapters tend to ape their parent's habbits, and 50+% of chapters are descended from the Ultras. So, all these territories ought to see some cultural diffusion between chapters (Emperor, hell of a guy, but...) and their populations. These worlds will probably become part of the Chapter's patrimony meaning all other IoM institutions, save perhaps the AdMech, can get bent depending on the ruling SM's mood.

Ideally, this would be the groundwork for a re-secularization of the IoM, but that would be a bold and decisive move towards the Emperor's true vision of the IoM. Moreover, the Astartes would be the vehicle for knocking superstition out of the IoM and at least making it feasible for a renewed spirit and effort in the mold of the GC.
Many thanks! These darned computers always screw me up. I calculated my first death-toll using a hand-cranked adding machine (we actually calculated the average mortality in each city block individually). Ah, those were the days.
-Stuart
"Mix'em up. I'm tired of States' Rights."
-Gen. George Thomas, Union Army of the Cumberland

Shadowtraveler
Padawan Learner
Posts: 382
Joined: 2006-03-04 09:23pm

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by Shadowtraveler » 2009-02-04 04:03am

I wouldn't go so far as to call it re-secularization. The Astartes as a whole are deeply spiritual, and I've never understood how people can say they don't worship the Emperor.

Also, how does the Astartes becoming administrators work? I mean in terms of power, duties, etc.

User avatar
Zor
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5860
Joined: 2004-06-08 03:37am

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by Zor » 2009-02-04 04:40am

Shadowtraveler wrote:and I've never understood how people can say they don't worship the Emperor.
The Space Marines Venerate the Emperor, they think he is the apex of humanity and the right ruler of the universe, but don't see him has as divine. To use a rough comparison, think of it somewhat as how Muslims venerate Mohammed without actually worshiping him. As for why this is the case, the Space Marine chapters are split off from the rest of Imperial Society (the only one able to order a space marine around who is not a Space Marine himself is the Emperor), and their roots go back long before the Ecclesiarchy came into existance (something which came into existance well after the Horus Heresy and was never part of the Emperor's vision for the Galaxy).

Zor
HAIL ZOR! WE'LL BLOW UP THE OCEAN!
Heros of Cybertron-HAB-Keeper of the Vicious pit of Allosauruses-King Leighton-I, United Kingdom of Zoria: SD.net World/Tsar Mikhail-I of the Red Tsardom: SD.net Kingdoms
WHEN ALL HELL BREAKS LOOSE ON EARTH, ALL EARTH BREAKS LOOSE ON HELL
http://zortropolis.myminicity.com/
http://zortropolis.myminicity.com/ind
http://zortropolis.myminicity.com/tra
Terran Sphere
The Art of Zor

User avatar
white_rabbit
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2039
Joined: 2002-09-30 09:04pm

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by white_rabbit » 2009-02-04 04:46am

3) Stop repeating the stupid "No guns on the underside of our ship? No problem! The enemy would never attack such a fucking obvious Achilles' heel!" design and mount gun turrets on the ventral surface. That "space is an ocean" meme is getting too damn tiring.
They actually do have them, and they are mentioned, as well as aft guns, but as is obvious, they aren't particularly relevant in the 2D BFG game which has shaped 40k space gear.

The Repulsive Grand Cruiser for example, has ventral lance batteries, but they are enclosed in armoured blast shields until deployed.
1) Give the Wolves helmets with movable visors, like on Medieval knight's, so they can fight with the helmets on and use their heightened sense of smell.
They don't even need that, just some sort of selectively permeable vent, like the ones that already exist on space marine helmets!

Its just silly bullshit however you cut it that they need to remove their helmet or even have a visor.
Image

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27248
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by NecronLord » 2009-02-04 08:07am

Sidewinder wrote: 3) Stop repeating the stupid "No guns on the underside of our ship? No problem! The enemy would never attack such a fucking obvious Achilles' heel!" design and mount gun turrets on the ventral surface. That "space is an ocean" meme is getting too damn tiring.
As has been stated, that's never been an article of the fiction. The models don't have it, but there's descriptions and pictures of them firing downward. Many BFG models are comparatively undetailed on the underside simply because there's no point.
Falkenhayn wrote:I'd like to see a rebellion/appearance by fully sentient Necrontyr. A Union of Lords who are cognizant of the pre-Mechanization Necrontyr. Something like "We've been Janissaries for the C'Tan for 65+ Million years, and our confederates have fought and died for them so many times they've been lobotomized". 40kverse can take it from there.
Well, they're not Janissaries any more. There's now no logical reason to think that the C'tan ever betrayed the necrontyr, or that the necrons aren't willing participants in their plans. Given how much the codex drew on eldar myth and the like for talking about their history, one can probably consider it to be Old One propaganda. Of course, (though it's not binding for 40K of course) in WHFB the Old Ones just moved firmly out of the 'shining good' category.

For that matter, it's likely, as the fluff stands now, that the necron lords could collectively call the C'tan onto the carpet if they ever had any reason to. As they're not slaves, nothing stops them destroying the systems that allow the C'tan to take new bodies. Hell, there might be two dozen C'tan out there that have been excommunicated in such a manner.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

Shadowtraveler
Padawan Learner
Posts: 382
Joined: 2006-03-04 09:23pm

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by Shadowtraveler » 2009-02-04 06:27pm

Zor wrote:
Shadowtraveler wrote:and I've never understood how people can say they don't worship the Emperor.
The Space Marines Venerate the Emperor, they think he is the apex of humanity and the right ruler of the universe, but don't see him has as divine. To use a rough comparison, think of it somewhat as how Muslims venerate Mohammed without actually worshiping him. As for why this is the case, the Space Marine chapters are split off from the rest of Imperial Society (the only one able to order a space marine around who is not a Space Marine himself is the Emperor), and their roots go back long before the Ecclesiarchy came into existance (something which came into existance well after the Horus Heresy and was never part of the Emperor's vision for the Galaxy).

Zor
I'm afraid I still don't see it. What about the Chaplains? The fact that they consider their work a "sacred duty" and all the religious undertones? The daily prayer as required in the Codex Astartes?

Granted, it's more like Roman-style Emperor-worship, but it's definately there.

Falkenhayn
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2106
Joined: 2003-05-29 05:08pm
Contact:

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by Falkenhayn » 2009-02-05 12:27am

Shadowtraveler wrote:
I'm afraid I still don't see it. What about the Chaplains? The fact that they consider their work a "sacred duty" and all the religious undertones? The daily prayer as required in the Codex Astartes?

Granted, it's more like Roman-style Emperor-worship, but it's definately there.
"All Space Marines in a Chapter belong to its warrior cult. These warrior cults preserve traditions and practices that date back to the earliest days of the Emperor's Reign (ie: M28-29). Space Marines from a single chapter are therefore spiritual brothers as well as brothers at arms. This dual existence as physical and spiritual warriors is what forges the Space Marines into such dedicated and determined warriors"(BBBv4, 132).

"Space Marine Chapters care nothing for the ravings of the Ecclesiarchy and ignore the dictates of the Imperial Cult in favour of their own ancient traditions. The first Space Marine Chapters were founded centuries before the development of the Imperial Cult and the Dominion of the Adeptus Ministorum. Whereas the Adeptus Ministorum has gradually extended its influence over the many thousands of individual cults that once existed throughout the galaxy, it has never been able to influence the Space Marine Cults which remain as stubbornly individualistic today as they ever were". (Codex: SMv4, 58).

"A Chapter's Chaplains are the keepers of the Reclusiam, the fortress-monastery's central shrine where prayer and worship is conducted. The Reclusiam is a place of great spiritual reverance, where battle standards hang from hallowed walls and the very stones echo with remembrance. Here are kept the Chapter most holy relics: fragments of armour, banners from times of legend, and the raiments of ancient heroes who long ago passed from mortal service. But the Chaplains teach that the presence of a formal chapel is not necessary to honor the Emperor, that the maelstrom of battle is the only true place of worship for a Space Marine, and the slaughter of foes the truest offering"(Codex, SMv4, 58).

Space Marine theology is a whole lot more complex than the straight up Emperor bothering of the Imperial Cult, which highest canon states they ignore. True, the Emperor forms an important component, but is contextualized by the Chapter's existing Warrior Cult. Moreover, the fidelity of Roboute Guilleman to the Emperor makes it highly implausible that he would institutionalize something the complete opposite of his master's wishes. More likely, he would promote existing spirituality in the Chapters as a key component of Astartes independence as a bulwark against the rising power of the Church of the Savior Emperor. Said Church ultimately became the Ministorum and represents a complete capitulation to political reality rather than the Emperor's humanist vision.

Moreover, the SM have shown themselves resistant to other "bureaucratic dogmas" in the IoM. If they need a specific vehicle type, they modify the Rhino, Predator, Land Raider or Land Speeder chasis to make it, and the AM can go hang. Likewise, they fight where they want, when they want for however long they want to. The two most important things to them are the safety of the Emperor's domains (ie, the IoM and its human subjects, which amount to his demesne, and therefore his honor) and their patrimonies (which at present are expanding to include worlds, systems and sub-sectors). If the Ultramarines successors simply transmit the practices of the original legions onto their patrimonies, the IoM may enjoy some really competent local administration, and a reintegration of human society. This is accomplished by SM administration erasing the divisions caused by different levels of administration and trans-IoM bureaucracies.
Many thanks! These darned computers always screw me up. I calculated my first death-toll using a hand-cranked adding machine (we actually calculated the average mortality in each city block individually). Ah, those were the days.
-Stuart
"Mix'em up. I'm tired of States' Rights."
-Gen. George Thomas, Union Army of the Cumberland

Shadowtraveler
Padawan Learner
Posts: 382
Joined: 2006-03-04 09:23pm

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by Shadowtraveler » 2009-02-05 01:57am

I never said the Astartes were Emperor-botherers or that they were part of the normal Imperial Cult, just that they actually worship the Emperor as a god.

Falkenhayn
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2106
Joined: 2003-05-29 05:08pm
Contact:

Re: WH40k comming millenium

Post by Falkenhayn » 2009-02-05 03:34am

Shadowtraveler wrote:I never said the Astartes were Emperor-botherers or that they were part of the normal Imperial Cult, just that they actually worship the Emperor as a god.
That's dandy.

I provided textual evidence that they don't. Moreover, Emperor worship runs against everything the Great Crusade was about, but more importantly, endangers their independence by tying them dogmatically to the Ministorum. Instead, they maintain their own warrior cults, of which the Emperor is a component, to be treated in any number of ways, of which, God is very much the least likely.
Many thanks! These darned computers always screw me up. I calculated my first death-toll using a hand-cranked adding machine (we actually calculated the average mortality in each city block individually). Ah, those were the days.
-Stuart
"Mix'em up. I'm tired of States' Rights."
-Gen. George Thomas, Union Army of the Cumberland

Post Reply