Dark Disciple

SF: discuss futuristic sci-fi series, ideas, and crossovers.

Moderator: NecronLord

User avatar
dragon
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4151
Joined: 2004-09-23 04:42pm

Dark Disciple

Post by dragon » 2009-01-01 04:24am

Just finished reading Dark Disciple and gotta say wow can't wait for the next book. However it did bring up a fewe questions. Toward the start Marduk made a comment about not being able to make certain stuff, do they not have forge worlds in the Eye?

Also when the magos asorbed the information from the one brain he was thinking about how he could now research with no limitations forced upon him. So why is it that the traitor legions are just as stagnant as the rest of the Imperium?
"There are very few problems that cannot be solved by the suitable application of photon torpedoes

User avatar
Feil
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1939
Joined: 2006-05-17 05:05pm
Location: Illinois, USA

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by Feil » 2009-01-02 10:28am

dragon wrote:So why is it that the traitor legions are just as stagnant as the rest of the Imperium?
The Imperium isn't stagnant. What it is is working with technology ten thousand years ahead of where it is, which it knows how to maintain, replicate, and modify, but not how it works to such a degree as to significantly advance upon it. In such areas where absolute technological prowess is not so much an issue as relative developmental ability, the Imperium shines: for instance, its techpriests can and do bio-engineer diseases to previously unknown xenos genetics in, often, a very short time frame.

User avatar
dragon
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4151
Joined: 2004-09-23 04:42pm

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by dragon » 2009-01-05 01:39am

Feil wrote:
dragon wrote:So why is it that the traitor legions are just as stagnant as the rest of the Imperium?
The Imperium isn't stagnant. What it is is working with technology ten thousand years ahead of where it is, which it knows how to maintain, replicate, and modify, but not how it works to such a degree as to significantly advance upon it. In such areas where absolute technological prowess is not so much an issue as relative developmental ability, the Imperium shines: for instance, its techpriests can and do bio-engineer diseases to previously unknown xenos genetics in, often, a very short time frame.
Working with tech 10k years old with no noticable improvements in it thats pretty stagnant. The Imperium pretty much has a reason that Divine Complexity thing the adepts belive in and thats its wrong to experiment with the tech. But that doesn't answer why the traitors are using the same tech when they don't have the higher ups saying no thats forbiden, especially when some of the traitors have been around for 10,000 years.
"There are very few problems that cannot be solved by the suitable application of photon torpedoes

User avatar
Feil
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1939
Joined: 2006-05-17 05:05pm
Location: Illinois, USA

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by Feil » 2009-01-05 02:39am

Let me put this to you a different way. You are stone age man. Somebody gives you a way to manufacture technology equivalent in effectiveness (if not in exact nature) to 21st century technology in a single generation, using only materials available at your current level of technological development. The downside is that the way to make it doesn't really shed any light on the science behind it. The other downside is that you are beset on all sides by enemies who are also using 21st-century-equivalent weapons and equipment. You have barely enough resources to hold them off. Predict the technological development of your society.

The Traitors have the same quandary as the Imperium, with a much, much smaller resource base, very limited access to records and databases, no dedicated science-approximating caste, and access to effects of Chaos which render technological advancement more or less unnecessary.

User avatar
Connor MacLeod
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 14065
Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Contact:

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-01-05 02:45pm

Actually 40K isnt so much technologically stagnant as it is technologically inconsistent. While its true they have some tech they can't easily replicate or replicate at all (such as the Golden Throne), and some tech that is rare as hell because its hard to produce (many kinds of warp munitions such as vortex grenades) it do esn't mean they are "Stagnant." There are ample sources indicating that the Techpriests still do

The problem is that various forge worlds more or less operate independently of each other, save perhaps Mars (and even then there's still some lack of cooperation, and Mars certainly doesn't cooperate with any of the others) and to very jealously guard their secrets/tech. Not only form each other but from the Imperium as a whole (Generally the AdMech and other organizations reserve the best stuff for themselves.) Usually the AdMech will only "share out" what it has in times of crisis (In the gothic war alot of "improvements" to ship designs were brought forth, for example - usually in the form of "miraculous discoveries/divine sharing of knowledge" etc.)

The end result however is that technological capabilities for some techs tends to vary widely from sector to sector or planet to planet. Some planets may have grav tech very common enough to have civilian aircars (or hairdos that are held up by suspensors) but others won't. This naturally also influences distribution and availability of vehicles and technologies to other organizations (such as the Guard, who has to keep in mind the limitations of its supply lines and industries when it equips troops.) So just because some areas of the Imperium may "lose" a tech doesnt mean the Imperium as a whole has. Hell, Stagnation isnt neccesarily an "all or nothing" feat either - even if they stagnate in some techs this doesn't mean ALL their techs do. Again AdMech fuckery can mean certain techs might be common but others not.

It is true also that tech progression is SLOW for the Imperium, tho. Partly that is the AdMech's dumbfuckery, but also parrt of it is because some technology is dangerous due to Warp an Chaos. (IE self aware robots like in First and Only, or certain kinds of Titans like in Dark Adeptus.)

In the case of Chaos the problem is more simple. The EoT is probably cut off from alot of necessities that may allow certian technologies to flourish, nevermind that the enviroment they operate in is pretty damn unpredictable/funky (I can't imagine conventional research is po ssible.) Usually Chaos gets around this by employing more daemons or more magic. (Infusing daemons into vehicles or munitions, for example.)

User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11957
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm
Contact:

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2009-01-05 02:59pm

Disciples of Dark Gods has a big section on tech heresy and forbidden technology. Warp related technologies are merely one type of controlled technology. It's important to remember that the Dark Age of Technology ended in the collapse of human society and the advent of the Age of Strife. Values and technologies (such as the exaltation of progress and the use of artificial intelligences) associated with the Dark Age are heretical by their very association. Tech priests do perform research and experimentation and while their terminology sounds superstitious and archiac ("gholems" are products of bioengineering) that does not mean that they ignorant nor incapable.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.

Librium Arcana

User avatar
dragon
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4151
Joined: 2004-09-23 04:42pm

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by dragon » 2009-01-06 02:30am

Good explaniations for why the Imperium as a whole is like the way it is. But for worlds such as Mars and Earth how did they lose so much of their tech as they were at the center of everything. Also why has not Mars recovered more than it has after all since its the main forge world it seems like they would have a lot more scientific understanding of their tech or is scientific understanding suppresed due to the Law of Divine Compexity they mention at the begining of the Mechanium (sp) book, which I haven't read much of yet.
"There are very few problems that cannot be solved by the suitable application of photon torpedoes

User avatar
Imperial Overlord
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11957
Joined: 2004-08-19 04:30am
Location: The Tower at Charm
Contact:

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2009-01-06 02:52am

dragon wrote:Good explaniations for why the Imperium as a whole is like the way it is. But for worlds such as Mars and Earth how did they lose so much of their tech as they were at the center of everything. Also why has not Mars recovered more than it has after all since its the main forge world it seems like they would have a lot more scientific understanding of their tech or is scientific understanding suppresed due to the Law of Divine Compexity they mention at the begining of the Mechanium (sp) book, which I haven't read much of yet.
Mars is the center of high tech production in the Imperium, producing weapons and devices that are "lost tech" for most of the Imperium. Dangerous scientific knowledge is deliberately suppressed by the Mechanicus and Mars itself was damaged in the Age of Strife before it was unified under the Mechanicus. Some technology is simply lost, even to Mars. That's one of the reasons for the Martian Exploritor Fleets and the hunt for STC knowledge, to reclaim all that has been lost and hasn't been independently reinvented.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.

Librium Arcana

User avatar
Lost Soal
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2500
Joined: 2002-10-22 06:25am
Location: Back in Newcastle.

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by Lost Soal » 2009-01-26 06:19pm

Mars had it's own internal strife just like Earth, but due to the Emperors pre-planning Mars came together and created the Ad Mech which set about trying to uncover all the lost tech. One of the main ways was by raiding Earth because that's where all the knowledge and technology originally was. Sometimes they succeeded and came back with a new trinket to experiment with, other times they were beaten back while more often they found a ruin from the war.

Further, the Ad Mech does have a workable scientific method, it's just just been moulded into a religious procedure and is somewhat slower. We see this in Soul Drinker where a team of junior adepts are able to bypass the Dark Age genetic lock of the Soul Spear.
"May God stand between you and harm in all the empty places where you must walk." - Ancient Egyptian Blessing

Ivanova is always right.
I will listen to Ivanova.
I will not ignore Ivanova's recommendations. Ivanova is God.
AND, if this ever happens again, Ivanova will personally rip your lungs out! - Babylon 5 Mantra

There is no "I" in TEAM. There is a ME however.

User avatar
Shroom Man 777
FUCKING DICK-STABBER!
Posts: 21163
Joined: 2003-05-11 08:39am
Location: Bleeding breasts and stabbing dicks since 2003
Contact:

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2009-01-27 06:58am

It could also be a matter of perception. The Imperium's tech is inconsistent also because of the sheer distances involved, and because of the fact that travel between these sheer distances is also inconsistent in terms of time. Quite literally, the physical laws of that universe makes long-distance travel about as quick and as speedy as Spaniard Conquistadores traveling from Europa to wage war on the heathens of the New World. The distances and times involved are prohibitive, and there's no real way to get around that because warp travel is a fucked up affair. The fact that the Imperium of Man has maintained such a level of technological uniformity in itself is quite astounding.*

In Brothers of the Snake, a Space Marine visits a planet and, in his perspective, returns ten years later. But the damsel in distress who he saved "ten years earlier" in that world has grown into an elderly woman who has outlived two husbands (and some of her own children) because the ten years for him hopping from planet to planet was, like, more than half a century for the woman.

So, a Baneblade might then be considered a "venerable machine that has slaughtered mutants and heretics for centuries!" when, in its own machine spirit's archeo-chronometer has just registered fifty years in active duty - just about the right time to go back to a forge world for a tuning up!

Imagine a B-52. It's served for more than half a century, so it's pretty much as venerable a warmachine can get by our standards. In 40k standards, allowing for ten years for asskickers = ten binillion years for shitpieces and whores, then the Buff will probably be a Sanctified Stratofortress!


*Consider the IoM's biggest enemies. The Orks and Chaos occupy the largest spaces, and they themselves are paleobarbaric degenerates as well. Whereas the Eldar number few and are technologically superior to the IoM, and they also travel travel light, through the Webway which circumnavigates all the travel difficulties conventional warp travel entails. The Tau, on the other hand, can match the Imperium on quite a few technologies - though against things like the AdMech's most *obscene* things, the Tau've got nothing - and they occupy such a small space that travel within their territories is relatively quick and easy. The Tyrannids are a bunch of monsters from beyond the galaxy out to eat everyone to spawn more Overlords, so they don't count in this analysis. Neither do the Necrons, since they're undead soul-sucking vampire robot skeletons from space.

The point is, unless you've got ways to go around the limitations imposed by warp travel and the sheer size of the IoM's territories, then you will face the difficulties the Imperium faces. Yet the Imperium prevails!

Lastly, if the Imperium was such a technologically regressed shithole - then why has it stayed relatively stable for more than ten thousand years in light of the deprivations of all their opponents? If they were stagnant, if there was no development, if all they did was maintain their technologies with no change whatsoever, then wouldn't that lead to their demise? Unless if their opponents also encounter the same problems when they reach a certain size, when their territories get that large, and then they'll face difficulties just like the IoM.

The only major threats to the IoM's stability are outside context problems, like the 'Nids and the goddamn 'Crons. If they were out of the picture, then the sheer scope of the IoM means that they basically "own" the galaxy. They're big, they're stable, and they survive wars against Orks, Chaos, and Eldar in a sort of violent equilibrium.

Stagnancy my ass. When space travel through hyperspace is filled with eldritch abominations manifested by the darkest cunt-eyed desires of the shitpieces of the galaxy, overflowing with magenta monsters of the Id out to breastbleed the faithful, then let's see how YOU can expand into a dominant Imperium of Man without suffering from the limitations all that horrible stuff will inevitably impose on you. :P
Image "DO YOU WORSHIP HOMOSEXUALS?" - Curtis Saxton (source)
shroom is a lovely boy and i wont hear a bad word against him - LUSY-CHAN!
Shit! Man, I didn't think of that! It took Shroom to properly interpret the screams of dying people :D - PeZook
Shroom, I read out the stuff you write about us. You are an endless supply of morale down here. :p - an OWS street medic
Pink Sugar Heart Attack!

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27248
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by NecronLord » 2009-01-27 03:04pm

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Lastly, if the Imperium was such a technologically regressed shithole - then why has it stayed relatively stable for more than ten thousand years in light of the deprivations of all their opponents?
This is such a fucking non-sequitur.

We could ask this of Babylon 5, too. If the Minbari are so stagnant that their ship designs haven't changed much in a thousand years, how have they survived? They do it by being more advanced. No known race but the First Ones are a realistic threat to them, so they can quite happily sit there with 'good enough' technology.

The same is true of the Imperium. Its technology is good enough to fight the enemies it's had to contend with for all that time, it doesn't need to get more advanced. Two out of three of the serious threats to its survival have only recently appeared, the other one's efforts to defeat the Imperium are led by Abaddon the Dingbat.
If they were stagnant, if there was no development, if all they did was maintain their technologies with no change whatsoever, then wouldn't that lead to their demise?
Why?
Stagnancy my ass. When space travel through hyperspace is filled with eldritch abominations manifested by the darkest cunt-eyed desires of the shitpieces of the galaxy, overflowing with magenta monsters of the Id out to breastbleed the faithful, then let's see how YOU can expand into a dominant Imperium of Man without suffering from the limitations all that horrible stuff will inevitably impose on you. :P
This is not an argument against the proposition 'The Imperium is technologically stagnant' this is an excuse for its stagnancy.

Here's the facts:
  • The Imperium is in technological regression compared to its forebears in the Golden Age of Technology.
  • The Imperium makes little substantive technological progress. It loses technology in some areas, and adapts or makes progress in others.
Yes, the Imperium is technologically stagnant. It's technology, however, has historically been at a high enough level to defend against its enemies. This only becomes a problem for its survival when it is confronted with new, hostile races, like the tyranids, against whom its existing technologies are inadequate.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

User avatar
Serafina
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5246
Joined: 2009-01-07 05:37pm
Location: Germany

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by Serafina » 2009-01-27 04:10pm

Dont forget the main belief of the Adeptus Mechanicus: Every worthy technology has already been invented, we just need to find it. Research is unneccessary: New technologys are inferior to what we might find, and there is no research necessary to understand old technology.

The thing is: They are right.
The Imperium has some INCREDIBLY advanced technology:
-Compact shield generators, able to withstand high-yield weapons
-Compact, reliable anti-grav tech, on par with Eldar stuff
-Avanced nano-machines, able to influence human cells while they act and change their behavior
-High-end bioengineering, able to create kill-all bioweapons and superhumans
-High-end medicine, able to increase the natural lifespan tenfold
-Psionic technology, able to induce, controll and supress psi-powers.
-Teleport technology
-Incredibly advanced computers, able to copy human thought (used in AM-"machinebrains")
-Portable statis-fields.

and lots of other stuff. This does not even count some of the more exotic technology we rarely see (hoarded by the AM) which is more powerfull than Eldar tech - and some stuff inventet by the Emperor may be even on par with Necron tech (Golden Throne, psionic creator, the Primarchs etc.).

The problem is the avaiability technology, not that they do not have the tech.

All they need to kick some major ass is rediscovering one of the few "pure" STKs - those that actually produce new STKs. Reliable plasma-rifles, black-hole grenades, Terminator armor, "Emperors Armor" forcefields and Land Raiders for everyone :wink:
SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

Divine Administration - of Gods and Bureaucracy (Worm/Exalted)

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27248
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by NecronLord » 2009-01-27 05:29pm

Oberst Tharnow wrote:Dont forget the main belief of the Adeptus Mechanicus:
Not really their main belief, though that is one of them, they have a number which reflect different ideas. See if you can find the article from 'Inquisitor' on the Universal Laws, if you're interested more in their beliefs (I believe it has two contradictory fifth laws, or something like that, too). They certainly don't believe that the Golden Age knew everything worth knowing; only the Machine God knows all, according to their theology.
and lots of other stuff. This does not even count some of the more exotic technology we rarely see (hoarded by the AM) which is more powerfull than Eldar tech - and some stuff inventet by the Emperor may be even on par with Necron tech (Golden Throne, psionic creator, the Primarchs etc.).
There's very little in the Imperium that's more sophisticated than Eldar technology. To the point that the Emperor's personal effort, using vast resources, to duplicate a single webway portal, something Eldar have in a man sized version, ended in a disaster that meant he could never again leave his throne for more than a few hours.

Psionic creator? Are you speaking of the thing from Faith and Fire? It's a one-off uber-tech, like the Primarchs.

Comparing like with like, Imperial one off ubertech produces things that are quite impressive. A comparable example of super-technology, the late Imperial Eldars' one-off never-duplicated weapon was capable of wounding or potentially, slaying outright, chaos gods (the Deathsword, Farseer).

Regardless of how you rater those against one another, on the whole, the Imperium of Mankind nowhere near as technologically advanced as the Eldar.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

User avatar
Teleros
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1544
Joined: 2006-03-31 02:11pm
Location: Ultra Prime, Klovia
Contact:

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by Teleros » 2009-01-27 06:02pm

This does not even count some of the more exotic technology we rarely see (hoarded by the AM) which is more powerfull than Eldar tech
The problem here is that all sides seem not to employ their greatest weapons all the time. The Necrons are currently harvesting worlds rather than engaging in total war, the AdMech is paranoid and hoards all the best toys, and the Eldar view war as art as much as, you know, war. In other words, whilst some AdMech gear may be better than the more common Eldar pieces of wargear, it doesn't mean it's not as good as the Eldars' best.
All they need to kick some major ass is rediscovering one of the few "pure" STKs - those that actually produce new STKs. Reliable plasma-rifles, black-hole grenades, Terminator armor, "Emperors Armor" forcefields and Land Raiders for everyone ;)
The AdMech finding a fully functioning STC and putting it to good use would tip the scales massively in the Imperium's favour against just about everyone bar perhaps Chaos, the Eldar and the Necrons. Not that GW will ever do anything to shift the balance so far in the Imperium's favour of course :P . If it did happen, it'd coincide with an AdMech schism, some chaos raids, and woops - the damn thing would be blown to pieces or something.
NecronLord wrote:There's very little in the Imperium that's more sophisticated than Eldar technology. To the point that the Emperor's personal effort, using vast resources, to duplicate a single webway portal, something Eldar have in a man sized version, ended in a disaster that meant he could never again leave his throne for more than a few hours.
Bear in the mind though that the Emperor was working from an inferior tech base*, and had Magnus the Red screw things up - all I can remember about the Eldar sealing the webway is their ability to close off particular "corridors" - not stop a serious breach (and one in sub-standard materials too).

* If you want to use wraithbone, but the AdMech is a million years from making the stuff then there's only so much you can do in the mean time.
NecronLord wrote:Comparing like with like, Imperial one off ubertech produces things that are quite impressive. A comparable example of super-technology, the late Imperial Eldars' one-off never-duplicated weapon was capable of wounding or potentially, slaying outright, chaos gods (the Deathsword, Farseer).
The Emperor probably intended to do something about the Chaos gods later, but given that he's a walking, talking Warp God incarnate, he probably didn't see the need for something like the Deathsword because he's got himself.

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27248
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by NecronLord » 2009-01-27 06:17pm

Teleros wrote: The AdMech finding a fully functioning STC and putting it to good use would tip the scales massively in the Imperium's favour against just about everyone bar perhaps Chaos, the Eldar and the Necrons. Not that GW will ever do anything to shift the balance so far in the Imperium's favour of course :P . If it did happen, it'd coincide with an AdMech schism, some chaos raids, and woops - the damn thing would be blown to pieces or something.
There is a short story where some jerkass monks hide a fully operational STC creation computer from the Imperium...
Bear in the mind though that the Emperor was working from an inferior tech base*, and had Magnus the Red screw things up - all I can remember about the Eldar sealing the webway is their ability to close off particular "corridors" - not stop a serious breach (and one in sub-standard materials too).

* If you want to use wraithbone, but the AdMech is a million years from making the stuff then there's only so much you can do in the mean time.
They most certainly can stop serious breaches. There are terminals in the web that lead directly to chaos worlds, that're sealed.

And 'he's working from an inferior tech base' is hardly a rebuttal of an argument that is out to demonstrate that they have an inferior tech base.
The Emperor probably intended to do something about the Chaos gods later, but given that he's a walking, talking Warp God incarnate, he probably didn't see the need for something like the Deathsword because he's got himself.
Actually, his plan seemed to be to just make humanity psychic and developed, and watch them fade away as humanity (their chief power source in the modern era, as far as we know) no longer powered them so much. Good plan, but it has no relevance to a discussion about technology.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

User avatar
Teleros
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1544
Joined: 2006-03-31 02:11pm
Location: Ultra Prime, Klovia
Contact:

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by Teleros » 2009-01-27 06:49pm

NecronLord wrote:There is a short story where some jerkass monks hide a fully operational STC creation computer from the Imperium...
*Groans*
NecronLord wrote:They most certainly can stop serious breaches. There are terminals in the web that lead directly to chaos worlds, that're sealed.
Yes - terminals in the webway network. From what I read about the Emperor's webway portal though, it sounded like the structure of it was damaged, rather than the fact that it was just leading to a Chaos world or somesuch.
NecronLord wrote:And 'he's working from an inferior tech base' is hardly a rebuttal of an argument that is out to demonstrate that they have an inferior tech base.
I know, I meant that the Emperor may have known more about it than the AdMech. As with the various reverse-engineering topics though, if it's too advanced for the tools (and science) of the day then even if one of the engineers knows exactly how to do it, you're not going to be able to do much very quickly.

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27248
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by NecronLord » 2009-01-28 06:53am

Teleros wrote: Yes - terminals in the webway network. From what I read about the Emperor's webway portal though, it sounded like the structure of it was damaged, rather than the fact that it was just leading to a Chaos world or somesuch.
Yes, he was trying to build a new gateway into the web, so that he could conquer it. Unfortunately, he got one of the many areas of the web that were dominated by demon incursions. Demon-proof sealing a web gate is, as far as we know, pretty elementary for Eldar seers. Though it does seem to be something only the seer path can manage.
I know, I meant that the Emperor may have known more about it than the AdMech. As with the various reverse-engineering topics though, if it's too advanced for the tools (and science) of the day then even if one of the engineers knows exactly how to do it, you're not going to be able to do much very quickly.
Even if this unsubstantiated speculation is true, it doesn't really change the point. The Eldar are a helluvalot more advanced than the imperium.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

User avatar
Connor MacLeod
Sith Apprentice
Posts: 14065
Joined: 2002-08-01 05:03pm
Contact:

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-01-28 02:11pm

I wouldn't call what the Eldar do as "technology" - its more akin to magical biowank than it is to actual technology (unless you want to go with some "gray goo nanowank" style construction like you get in the Posleen novels.). Anyy technological approach to what the Eldar do is probably bound to be a failure (except maybe certain "basic" elements. You could argue based on certain older soruces, like the IW novels, that the Imperium duplicated shuriken tech in some fashion.)

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27248
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by NecronLord » 2009-01-28 02:17pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:I wouldn't call what the Eldar do as "technology" - its more akin to magical biowank than it is to actual technology (unless you want to go with some "gray goo nanowank" style construction like you get in the Posleen novels.). Anyy technological approach to what the Eldar do is probably bound to be a failure (except maybe certain "basic" elements. You could argue based on certain older soruces, like the IW novels, that the Imperium duplicated shuriken tech in some fashion.)
Well, that rather depends. I'd have a hard time saying that their gravitic tanks, shriuken weapons and plasma weapons aren't technology, even if they have psychic elements (or are even controlled by spirit stones) to them. Proper technological solutions exist for all these items, after all. They may incorporate elements that are warp-tastic, but they do manipulate and use real physics as well.

The only real difference in many cases seems to be that their base materials are brought out of cracks in reality with their mind powers. After that, they become very much technological devices.

Regardless, it fills the role of technology in their culture, and is just as adaptable and useable as technology is in most settings. Certainly their psychic technology is capable of accomplishing most of the things human technology in 40K can, and more often than not, does so better.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

User avatar
Cykeisme
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2401
Joined: 2004-12-25 01:47pm
Contact:

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by Cykeisme » 2009-02-03 05:48pm

Agreed on Eldar technology being real technology.. descriptions of the functions of most Eldar weaponry and equipment sound like they're based in "normal" physics, though some others are enhanced (or exclusively function) with warpcraft of some sort.

I've always wondered, though.. what are the structural properties of Wraithbone?
As I understand, the hulls of Eldar vehicles and ships constructed of the stuff, right?
NecronLord wrote:Yes, he was trying to build a new gateway into the web, so that he could conquer it. Unfortunately, he got one of the many areas of the web that were dominated by demon incursions. Demon-proof sealing a web gate is, as far as we know, pretty elementary for Eldar seers. Though it does seem to be something only the seer path can manage.
It's worth noting that the Emperor's efforts were going fine, until the reception of Magnus the Red's warp sorcery-generated astropathic message (that Horus had gone rogue) disrupted the protective wards and allowed demon incursion into the still-nacent human-built webway link.

A disruptive event like that may have had a similar effect on ancient Eldar webway construction work.. and also worth stating is that the Eldar are no longer capable of building new webway links. The techniques to build the webway paths were constructed during the height of their civlization, ages past.

Unless any of that has been retconned, that is!
"..history has shown the best defense against heavy cavalry are pikemen, so aircraft should mount lances on their noses and fly in tight squares to fend off bombers". - RedImperator

"ha ha, raping puppies is FUN!" - Johonebesus

"It would just be Unicron with pew pew instead of nom nom". - Vendetta, explaining his justified disinterest in the idea of the movie Allspark affecting the Death Star

User avatar
Teleros
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1544
Joined: 2006-03-31 02:11pm
Location: Ultra Prime, Klovia
Contact:

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by Teleros » 2009-02-03 06:13pm

NecronLord wrote:Yes, he was trying to build a new gateway into the web, so that he could conquer it. Unfortunately, he got one of the many areas of the web that were dominated by demon incursions. Demon-proof sealing a web gate is, as far as we know, pretty elementary for Eldar seers. Though it does seem to be something only the seer path can manage.
I thought he was connecting it to a normal part of the webway network, but as Cyk said, Magnus the Red's spell screwed up the wards and breached the Emperor's section of webway, allowing daemons in.
Cykeisme wrote:I've always wondered, though.. what are the structural properties of Wraithbone?
It's a psychically conductive "psycho-plastic" (or some-such) material grown by Bonesingers. Used to build... just about everything, so I guess its properties vary depending on how its grown.

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27248
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by NecronLord » 2009-02-03 06:14pm

Cykeisme wrote:Agreed on Eldar technology being real technology.. descriptions of the functions of most Eldar weaponry and equipment sound like they're based in "normal" physics, though some others are enhanced (or exclusively function) with warpcraft of some sort.

I've always wondered, though.. what are the structural properties of Wraithbone?
As I understand, the hulls of Eldar vehicles and ships constructed of the stuff, right?
Spaceframes, actually. Hulls, I'm not sure. I think it was reffered to as 'stronger' or 'harder' (from a strict engineering standpoint there is of course a difference) than the Imperium's best materials.
and also worth stating is that the Eldar are no longer capable of building new webway links. The techniques to build the webway paths were constructed during the height of their civlization, ages past.
I never saw anything remotely like that. They're not expanding that, but I assume that's because they've gone down to a hundred or so habitats, from being a million planet empire or something to that effect. I don't see the persons in Survivors building new motorways, but that doesn't mean that it's lost technology.

Both eldar and dark eldar make use of wraithgates, portable devices that establish a new gate.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

User avatar
white_rabbit
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2039
Joined: 2002-09-30 09:04pm

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by white_rabbit » 2009-02-04 04:57am

[quote]
I thought he was connecting it to a normal part of the webway network, but as Cyk said, Magnus the Red's spell screwed up the wards and breached the Emperor's section of webway, allowing daemons in.[quote]

This was the case AFAIK, as I recall, there was a ruined city with eldar architecture present as well. The wraithbone construction of the webway network created a protective field against the warp.

Those of keen memory will recall that the Wraithbone construction of the original Kraftworlds saved the occupants from getting soul-fucked by the birth of slaanesh due to this property.


As far as the physical properties of Wraithbone, I think it obviously varies a great deal, just as much as any existing construction material, depending on how its used. I recall a reference to the seals on some permanently barred portals being "a million times stronger than steel".

One of the more useful attributes of wraithbone has always been the power generation, it lets you build powered armours like some of the aspect armours without having to have pesky exoskeletal frames like marine power armour.
Image

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27248
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by NecronLord » 2009-02-04 07:59am

Yeah, it has some form-changing abilities; it also doubles as a sort of communications system, and even allows souls to move around. Souls in the infinity matrix aren't restricted to their stones, but can move about and presumably interact with, (though they seem to form a collective mind in the only example of them being written I can think of, though they do retain some individuality too) the entire craftworld.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

User avatar
Cykeisme
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2401
Joined: 2004-12-25 01:47pm
Contact:

Re: Dark Disciple

Post by Cykeisme » 2009-02-05 04:09am

NecronLord wrote:Both eldar and dark eldar make use of wraithgates, portable devices that establish a new gate.
Hmm, does it require the user to be near a webway entrance to work?

How exactly do "normal" fixed webway entrances work, anyway?
Is there an actual physical gate that sits there, or are they intangible, invisible portals until activated?
white_rabbit wrote:One of the more useful attributes of wraithbone has always been the power generation, it lets you build powered armours like some of the aspect armours without having to have pesky exoskeletal frames like marine power armour.
Ooh yeah, now I remember reading something a long while back about wraithbone armor moving in reaction to its wearer's mind.
In effect it works as power armour, though calling it that sort of cheapens the whole psycho-sorcery theme :p

Btw, not to be a geeky nitpicker, but IIRC the dead souls in a craftworld's wraithbone bits are referred to as Infinity Circuit. At least, the particular versions of fluff I read called it that.
"..history has shown the best defense against heavy cavalry are pikemen, so aircraft should mount lances on their noses and fly in tight squares to fend off bombers". - RedImperator

"ha ha, raping puppies is FUN!" - Johonebesus

"It would just be Unicron with pew pew instead of nom nom". - Vendetta, explaining his justified disinterest in the idea of the movie Allspark affecting the Death Star

Post Reply