Killing a C'tan

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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Xon » 2008-12-23 01:46am

There should be a few from Xeelee-verse who could kill a C'tan, but the biggest issue is the ones who could do it with the least collateral damage or most crazy application of technology, time or resources.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by NecronLord » 2008-12-23 07:43am

Vain wrote: The Idirans blew up stars in their war with the Culture (see Consider Phlebas, Look to Windward). I don't know of any examples of the Culture performing the same feat, but given their technology and warmaking potential were supposed to be superior to the Idirans at the time, and certainly in the 'present' hundreds of years later, it doesn't seem beyond the pale. If a supernova could harm a C'tan (I don't know) it seems within the capabilities of the Culture to bring one about. Whether even Minds could manage to get the drop on the Nightbringer is anyone's guess.
The same problem as the Sun Crusher. Gridfire takes quite some time. Long enough for a C'tan to be in Andromeda. Never mind the presumably much longer mass alteration of stars. The C'tan know rather a lot about stars, it's unreasonable to assume they can't tell when one is about to explode under them, and skidaddle (if they even need to).
Vultur wrote:I have to nitpick; in D&D, a 20th level fighter isn't meant to be "an ordinary human with good training and excellent health"; 20th level is a mythic hero on the level of Beowulf or Achilles. 11th level is supposed to be the point where someone becomes a true legend.
But few settings have the guts to say they're magic; such characters are just very very hard.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-12-23 08:15am

Vultur wrote:I have to nitpick; in D&D, a 20th level fighter isn't meant to be "an ordinary human with good training and excellent health"; 20th level is a mythic hero on the level of Beowulf or Achilles. 11th level is supposed to be the point where someone becomes a true legend.
What are Epic characters, then? And no, they are not gods; they have their own rules. :wink:
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Vain » 2008-12-23 11:55am

NecronLord wrote:The same problem as the Sun Crusher. Gridfire takes quite some time. Long enough for a C'tan to be in Andromeda. Never mind the presumably much longer mass alteration of stars. The C'tan know rather a lot about stars, it's unreasonable to assume they can't tell when one is about to explode under them, and skidaddle (if they even need to).
My contention was with the suggestion that the Culture lacked the ability to destroy stars. I have no issue accepting that a being with easy FTL travel can outrun a supernova.

As beings who might just have enough oomph to take out one of the C'tan, I nominate a one/two punch of Galactus with post-Annihilation Silver Surfer. I really don't know enough about the C'tan's physiology to make a strong case, but the two have shown tremendous energy transference, and easy transdimensional and time travel. It's kind of an awkward argument, since they've both shown so much variation over the course of their long careers (Silver Surfer knocked out by a flowerpot <<<< Silver Surfer conjuring black holes to trap other cosmic beings and destroying planets by accident), but I'll be happy to take up the sword if you think it'd be an interesting discussion. ;-)

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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by NecronLord » 2008-12-23 12:50pm

Vain wrote:
NecronLord wrote:The same problem as the Sun Crusher. Gridfire takes quite some time. Long enough for a C'tan to be in Andromeda. Never mind the presumably much longer mass alteration of stars. The C'tan know rather a lot about stars, it's unreasonable to assume they can't tell when one is about to explode under them, and skidaddle (if they even need to).
My contention was with the suggestion that the Culture lacked the ability to destroy stars.
There was no such suggestion. They lack the means to do it in a timeframe that would get a C'tan.
As beings who might just have enough oomph to take out one of the C'tan, I nominate a one/two punch of Galactus with post-Annihilation Silver Surfer. I really don't know enough about the C'tan's physiology to make a strong case, but the two have shown tremendous energy transference, and easy transdimensional and time travel. It's kind of an awkward argument, since they've both shown so much variation over the course of their long careers (Silver Surfer knocked out by a flowerpot <<<< Silver Surfer conjuring black holes to trap other cosmic beings and destroying planets by accident), but I'll be happy to take up the sword if you think it'd be an interesting discussion. ;-)
I'm really not familiar enough with the likes of DC/marvel comics to make a case. They're often so hilariously varied in ability and scale that it's just painful to even start considering them rationally.

I recall being told about this super-duper-awesome 'Darkseid' character once, who could destroy chaos gods with his 'eyebeams' and then punching it into youtube. The first hit I got was of Superman stopping those 'eyebeams' with a brick.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by loomer » 2008-12-23 11:33pm

Darth Hoth wrote:
Vultur wrote:I have to nitpick; in D&D, a 20th level fighter isn't meant to be "an ordinary human with good training and excellent health"; 20th level is a mythic hero on the level of Beowulf or Achilles. 11th level is supposed to be the point where someone becomes a true legend.
What are Epic characters, then? And no, they are not gods; they have their own rules. :wink:
Actually, epic characters can qualify as quasi (rank 0) deities. To be entirely honest, Epic characters generally surpass most human legendary figures like Beowulf.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by NecronLord » 2008-12-24 08:06am

loomer wrote:Actually, epic characters can qualify as quasi (rank 0) deities. To be entirely honest, Epic characters generally surpass most human legendary figures like Beowulf.
The sole official class that has that as an automatic thing is 'Dragon Ascendant' which requires err, a dragon (already a magical creature) to spend twelve levels getting steadily more magical.

Otherwise, a level 1 commoner or common beggar can qualify as a diety (there is an example in the dieties and demigods expansion) depending on the world's cosmology. It has nothing to do with being epic characters.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Rye » 2008-12-24 10:58am

NecronLord wrote: I'm really not familiar enough with the likes of DC/marvel comics to make a case. They're often so hilariously varied in ability and scale that it's just painful to even start considering them rationally.

I recall being told about this super-duper-awesome 'Darkseid' character once, who could destroy chaos gods with his 'eyebeams' and then punching it into youtube. The first hit I got was of Superman stopping those 'eyebeams' with a brick.
While that is true, there are a few "imagination weapons" in comics stuff like the Ultimate Nullifier and the Infinity Gauntlet (both reportedly "universe-scale" weaponry that work on the bearer's will), but I wanted to avoid those for obvious reasons.

If there was a masochistic C'tan and it swam into the Eye of Terror, would that kill it? Would it "convert"?
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by NecronLord » 2008-12-24 05:12pm

Zuul wrote:If there was a masochistic C'tan and it swam into the Eye of Terror, would that kill it? Would it "convert"?
Unknown. One fan theory has it that the golden figure that presented Abaddon's sword to him was the Deceiver. Conversely, the Deceiver looked at a smaller warp storm and shuddered in one story, but assigning too many human reactions and motives to something like that is a bit questionable.

It seems most unlikely to convert, though; it has no soul, and could presumably find nothing impressive about gods it's thousands of times older than and knows how to kill.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-12-24 05:29pm

NecronLord wrote: It seems most unlikely to convert, though; it has no soul, and could presumably find nothing impressive about gods it's thousands of times older than and knows how to kill.
Except raw power and the possible ability to kill the C'tan. The Gods of Chaos are much more powerful than the Eldar dieties who did manage to thwart the C'tan on occasion. The Deceiver being the Deceiver, he's not likely to risk a head on confrontation. Now manipulating another C'tan into doing so and observing the results, that's right up his alley.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Teleros » 2008-12-24 06:17pm

NecronLord wrote:It seems most unlikely to convert, though; it has no soul
That said, soulless objects have been corrupted by Chaos often enough in the past - look at daemon worlds, possessed tanks and the like. That said, I'm not going to try and guess at how easy something like this would be.

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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Revy » 2008-12-24 06:36pm

The C'Tan have a plan for defeating the Chaos Gods already - they supposedly have the means to sever the connection between the physical realm and the warp, which would essentially render the Chaos Gods powerless and possibly even dead (not quite sure). The Pariah, which blot out warp emmenations, were a prototype and/or stage in that plan (going off memory here from what I read in the codex, I'll have to look it up again).
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by fusion » 2008-12-24 06:53pm

I am actually surprised that there is no negative energy weapons in most Sci-fi settings. If one had enough negative energy, they probably would kill the C'tan. The problem is just how much...

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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Zablorg » 2008-12-25 05:10am

fusion wrote:I am actually surprised that there is no negative energy weapons in most Sci-fi settings. If one had enough negative energy, they probably would kill the C'tan. The problem is just how much...
Erm, isn't the point to energy is there isn't "negative" to it?
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by NecronLord » 2008-12-25 07:19am

Imperial Overlord wrote: Except raw power
We don't know they're in any way comparable to what the C'tan have fought in the past. Simply because Slanessh overcame the Eldar deities - when Slanessh itself was pumped up far beyond what it is now - does not mean they're equal to (or inferior to) whever the Old Ones were throwing down. Or, for that matter, that the Eldar Deities by the time of the fall were greater or lesser than they were during the War in Heaven. I see no reason to assume it would impress a C'tan enough for it to start worshipping - it's unlikely an energy creature that comes from the stars would even have the mental drive to worship and have religious experience. In fact, while they enjoy being worshipped, they seem to find supersition "bonerattling" and chanting to be quite hilarious.
and the possible ability to kill the C'tan.
In their own space? Perhaps, perhaps not.
The Gods of Chaos are much more powerful than the Eldar dieties
And whatever the Jokaero may or may not have? And the Krork Deities (the Chaos Gods are not, now, the equal of these) and the warp-powers of every other race the Old Ones spawned to serve them in war? The Eldar did not, despite what their legends may suggest, fight alone.

And as mentioned above, Slanessh was more powerful than the Eldar deities for a time; Slanessh was also more powerful than the other three chaos gods at the same time. Its power has since diminished greatly.
who did manage to thwart the C'tan on occasion. The Deceiver being the Deceiver, he's not likely to risk a head on confrontation. Now manipulating another C'tan into doing so and observing the results, that's right up his alley.
I'm hardly saying they're likely to go in there, or even want to. But there's no evidence to say what would or would not happen if they went into a warp storm.

In any case, there really is no way to know how the modern Chaos Gods compare in power to the various gods that the Old Ones devised to fight the C'tan. And certainly no reason to think that the C'tan would find the Chaos Gods worshipful.
Teleros wrote: That said, soulless objects have been corrupted by Chaos often enough in the past - look at daemon worlds, possessed tanks and the like. That said, I'm not going to try and guess at how easy something like this would be.
Some sapient machines seem to have souls. Else, the chaos gods invest them with them. It's unclear, and unlikely that GW has even thought it through.
fusion wrote:I am actually surprised that there is no negative energy weapons in most Sci-fi settings. If one had enough negative energy, they probably would kill the C'tan. The problem is just how much...
And how to deliver it.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Xon » 2008-12-25 08:48am

Zablorg wrote:
fusion wrote:I am actually surprised that there is no negative energy weapons in most Sci-fi settings. If one had enough negative energy, they probably would kill the C'tan. The problem is just how much...
Erm, isn't the point to energy is there isn't "negative" to it?
There is the theorized negative/exotic mass. There is also imaginary masses and FTL particles (tachyons). So there are potential theories for it, but how it would fit with our understanding of physics is another question.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-12-25 11:58am

NecronLord wrote: I see no reason to assume it would impress a C'tan enough for it to start worshipping - it's unlikely an energy creature that comes from the stars would even have the mental drive to worship and have religious experience..
I never said anything about worship. I said raw power, as in C'tan killing raw power. Something that it would respect or fear.
In any case, there really is no way to know how the modern Chaos Gods compare in power to the various gods that the Old Ones devised to fight the C'tan.
We certainly know that Slaanesh may have been powered up at his ascension, but he wasn't strong enough to overcome normal strength Khorne when they fought over Khaine. Khaine survived only because they were more interested in fighting each other. This was during the collapse at the pinnacle the of the Eldar's power and Khaine was far from equal to a god of Chaos. As for the other gods, we don't know for sure but we do know they weren't single gods drawing upon the power of multiple species and that the warp was warmer and fuzzier back then.

As for the Eye of Terror, I'm sure no C'tan, whose immortality and power are dependent upon the laws of physics of the material universe, wishes to fight a God of Chaos in a realm where those laws get bent and reshaped according the Gods of Chaos whim. They're doing their current "gradually block out the warp without ever directly confronting the Chaos Gods" plan for a reason. They weren't afraid to take on Khaine and the rest directly during the war in heaven but they're avoiding the Chaos Gods now.

It makes sense. Why risk death when you don't have to? I'm sure the Deceiver, who is after all responsible for causing most the C'tan to kill each other and was considering letting the other lie cold after he woke up, is considering the possibilities of a Khorne-Nightbringer fight as a way of disposing of his brethren. He's that kind of dick, but we don't know for sure what will happen.

We do know

1) Only C'tan have successfully killed C'tan

2) Enough warp power can badly injure C'tan

3) There's no record of them fighting anything warpy with as much power as one of the Four Gods

4) The Eye of Terror is not a battleground favorable to the C'tan.

We might not know who will win that fight, but we have a pretty good idea that the C'tan have a good reason not to be eager to try it.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by NecronLord » 2008-12-25 12:41pm

Imperial Overlord wrote:I never said anything about worship. I said raw power, as in C'tan killing raw power. Something that it would respect or fear.
Irrelevant. The question was would they 'convert.' To convert to chaos, acts of worship must happen. This is not terribly likely.

I see no reason why 'the raw power of chaos' would bring on any kind of religious experience for these things.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Imperial Overlord » 2008-12-25 01:08pm

NecronLord wrote:
Imperial Overlord wrote:I never said anything about worship. I said raw power, as in C'tan killing raw power. Something that it would respect or fear.
Irrelevant. The question was would they 'convert.' To convert to chaos, acts of worship must happen. This is not terribly likely.

I see no reason why 'the raw power of chaos' would bring on any kind of religious experience for these things.
I never said anything about conversion or religious experience, although in hindsight I can see how my quoting could have been better to avoid that misrepresentation. I merely meant power that was great enough that a C'tan had to treat it with respect, like the reality bending power of a warpstorm. To be clear, I don't see the C'tan ever "converting" to any warp power, no matter how powerful.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by His Divine Shadow » 2008-12-25 03:52pm

Regarding C'tan, it was the outsider that killed a whole lot of other C'tan wasn't it? He was tricked into eating them, he became first very powerfull but then apparently very ill. Cannibalism didn't seem very good. Was that the reason for the Outsider going crazy? Did the eating of the other C'tan make him really powerfull but also really warped and crazy? I had sort of gotten the impression that the Outsider was maybe most powerfull after that, but too fucked in the head to do anything with it. Anyone that can confirm/deny?
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by NecronLord » 2008-12-25 05:22pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:Regarding C'tan, it was the outsider that killed a whole lot of other C'tan wasn't it?
All the survivors consumed some. The Outsider was however, tricked into doing so by the Laughing God, which is apparently the reason why its meals don't sit well with it.

Relative power statements are pretty much that the Deceiver is the weakest, and the Dragon was originally the strongest, but is now wounded.
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Re: Killing a C'tan

Post by Rye » 2008-12-25 09:25pm

NecronLord wrote:
Imperial Overlord wrote:I never said anything about worship. I said raw power, as in C'tan killing raw power. Something that it would respect or fear.
Irrelevant. The question was would they 'convert.' To convert to chaos, acts of worship must happen. This is not terribly likely.

I see no reason why 'the raw power of chaos' would bring on any kind of religious experience for these things.
My mistake for using the word "convert" as that has been interpreted to mean part of some sort of religious hierarchy, rather than just have the usual chaos upgrades by being compliant with chaotic philosophy and generally bathing in the warp. "Ally with" or "be corrupted" would be more apt. The scenario I had in my head was something like; Deceiver convinces another C'tan that a means to rise to supremacy is to sink into the Eye and become largely chaotic, to gain vast knowledge/power over both realms and deal death, darkness, despair and other words beginning with d that villains tend to enjoy over the other C'tan (and then the wider universe) in ways they can't easily defend themselves against. Now, potentially, the Deceiver would do it just as he's about to complete the great warding and trap his bro there to be eternally tortured by Chaos for the fun of it or something, but it's an interesting what if.
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