For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

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For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Zor » 2008-12-04 06:19pm

Copypasta from Spacebattles, but i though you guys might like a go with it as well :)

An idea which i first came up from in dealing with one Senor_Kickass's trollery regarding japanese stuff on Spacebattles, but i latter allowed it to ferment into this rough concept.

One thing that is fairly well known about the Imperium is that, despite it's intollerence, it is a fairly diverse place, with human populations from diverse backrounds and one idea came to me about something games workshop has not officiallly done yet. Why not Imperial Guard forces from a world/cluster of worlds populated by the decendants of Japanese People which by various means evolved along lines of Imperial Japan.

And before you say "Imperial Japan would not fit in with the Imperium of man", a few common elements of the Imperium/Guard are...
-Fanatical worship of a God Emperor
-Beleif that true glory awaits those who die in military service of said emperor acording to Warrior Codes
-Officers carrying swords into battle
-Massed Charges

As for what they could have the standard Guardsmen of (just throwing a name out) the Nihon Cluster, you might aim to have them look something like this...

Dumbfuck, next time check image size...because you can press preview.

With a few aquillas put on and redo the gun into a lasgun. Another idea would be to rather closely moddel their forces more along the lines of the Imperial Japanese Army. I don't know about rules completly, but i feel that give them high moral and a close quarters damage bonus would be mostly in character for these guys.

What do you think?

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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by speaker-to-trolls » 2008-12-04 06:54pm

Hey, why not? We already have South African Planet (Pretoria, not that popular anymore I don't think), Mongol Planet, Arab Planet, Russian Planet (in fact I think there are now two of those) and Apocalypse Now Planet.

Having said that, a chain-katana would just be bizarre, really that's the only way I could describe it.
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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by fgalkin » 2008-12-04 07:13pm

Yes, except their "Emperor" happens to be Chaos Undivided.

I mean, how can a planet based on a nation that gave us banzai charges, Unit 731, tentacle hentai, and rapid technological innovation NOT worship Khorne, Nurgle, Slaanesh and Tzeentch?

Besides, they already have an army based on Japan. They're called the Tau.

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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Falkenhayn » 2008-12-04 09:11pm

Zor wrote: -Fanatical worship of a God Emperor
-Beleif that true glory awaits those who die in military service of said emperor acording to Warrior Codes
-Officers carrying swords into battle
-Massed Charges
Zor
Minus the charges, that sounds like the Tallarns, with the Charges, that's a pretty accurate description of Valhallans. Gaunt's Ghosts is moving Guard away from the heavy handed national/ethnic metaphors of 2nd Ed IG, I think.
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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Samuel » 2008-12-04 10:59pm

Do they have Planet Sparta, Planet Zulu, Planet Rome, Planet Isreal, Planet Afghanistan or Planet Spaceballs yet?

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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Shadowtraveler » 2008-12-04 11:21pm

They already have a japanese army I think. They're called the Harakoni Warhawks.

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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by NecronLord » 2008-12-05 02:04am

Shadowtraveler wrote:They already have a japanese army I think. They're called the Harakoni Warhawks.
...

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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Bob the Gunslinger » 2008-12-05 02:26am

Samuel wrote:Do they have Planet Sparta, Planet Zulu, Planet Rome, Planet Isreal, Planet Afghanistan or Planet Spaceballs yet?
Planet of the Iron Snakes=Sparta

On of the Dark Angel's worlds was much like Zulu, as far as I recall.

Macragge and Ultramar, as well as Terra in some of the fluff. (Planet Rome)

No planet Israel yet, but the new Henry Zhou novels will be about a 'Jewish' inquisitor and his 'noticeably semitic' assassin accomplice. Also, the Ciaphas Cain novels mention a planet Masada, where the Sisters of Battle made a doomed last stand.

Planet Afghanistan could be the occupied world depicted in Ultramarine book 4. Or it could be Space Iraq or even New New Caprica.

Planet Spaceball would probably be the Janine world, with their whole air shortage thing going on.

(Sorry for spelling/grammar/lack of details. Too tired to look shit up.)
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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-12-05 11:30am

Falkenhayn wrote:Minus the charges, that sounds like the Tallarns, with the Charges, that's a pretty accurate description of Valhallans. Gaunt's Ghosts is moving Guard away from the heavy handed national/ethnic metaphors of 2nd Ed IG, I think.
And the Guard novels were moving it back (Desert Raiders and Rebel Winter come most immediately to mind :P) Then again its probably less cultural stereotypes and more military patterns/stereotypes (You get styles of warfare t hroughout our history cropping up in the Guard basically.) and the cultural stuff is just sometimes included.

This also makes Catachan Planet Rambo doesnt it?

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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2008-12-05 11:33am

Do the Valhallans even do charges? They seem like a pretty competent bunch.
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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Swindle1984 » 2008-12-05 05:52pm

Who are the guys that look like WWI German stormtroopers, complete with gasmasks, trench coats, and stahlhelms?
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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Samuel » 2008-12-05 05:58pm

Swindle1984 wrote:Who are the guys that look like WWI German stormtroopers, complete with gasmasks, trench coats, and stahlhelms?
These guys?

Image

They are the Death Corps of Krieg.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Death_Korps_of_Krieg

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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Falkenhayn » 2008-12-05 06:16pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
And the Guard novels were moving it back (Desert Raiders and Rebel Winter come most immediately to mind :P) Then again its probably less cultural stereotypes and more military patterns/stereotypes (You get styles of warfare t hroughout our history cropping up in the Guard basically.) and the cultural stuff is just sometimes included.
Nobody at GW ever thought of using Zulu for free advertising. :P
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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Aaron » 2008-12-05 07:46pm

speaker-to-trolls wrote:Hey, why not? We already have South African Planet (Pretoria, not that popular anymore I don't think), Mongol Planet, Arab Planet, Russian Planet (in fact I think there are now two of those) and Apocalypse Now Planet.

Having said that, a chain-katana would just be bizarre, really that's the only way I could describe it.
I'm drawing a blank on the Apocalypse Now planet, which would that be? Catachan?
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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Sea Skimmer » 2008-12-05 07:57pm

People tend to overplay the whole banzai charge thing with the Imperial Japanese Army. Half the time they happened, any other attack would have failed even WORSE because it would mean staying further away from allied force… which means they’d suffer extremely heavily from artillery fire. Charging meant quickly closing the range so that didn't happen, at least against machine guns and rifle fire the Japanese had a chance of winning. The IJA was screwed in general because it was lightly equipped and especially it had awful communications, both factors directly stem from Japan being a poor country which had quite rightly invested heavily in naval and air power instead of land weapons. The IJA’s true tactic of choice was outflanking, and they conquered all of South East Asia that way.
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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Samuel » 2008-12-05 10:58pm

Sea Skimmer wrote:People tend to overplay the whole banzai charge thing with the Imperial Japanese Army. Half the time they happened, any other attack would have failed even WORSE because it would mean staying further away from allied force… which means they’d suffer extremely heavily from artillery fire. Charging meant quickly closing the range so that didn't happen, at least against machine guns and rifle fire the Japanese had a chance of winning. The IJA was screwed in general because it was lightly equipped and especially it had awful communications, both factors directly stem from Japan being a poor country which had quite rightly invested heavily in naval and air power instead of land weapons. The IJA’s true tactic of choice was outflanking, and they conquered all of South East Asia that way.
Didn't they repeatedly try double envelopment against the Russian Army during the 1904-5 war? I also found it hilarious- outnumbered they tried to surround the Russian! And the Russians retreated!

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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Sea Skimmer » 2008-12-06 04:37am

Samuel wrote:
Didn't they repeatedly try double envelopment against the Russian Army during the 1904-5 war? I also found it hilarious- outnumbered they tried to surround the Russian! And the Russians retreated!
In almost every single battle they employed a single envelopment, combined several holding attacks, some of which could be considered another arm of envelopment. It worked most spectacularly at the last big land battle at Mukden when an entire Japanese army outflanked a 90 mile long Russian deployment behind field works (of superior but not hugely superior numbers), held in position by the supporting attacks of four other Japanese armies, and cut its line of supply. The Russians had to abandon almost all stockpiles and artillery and went into full retreat. Both sides suffered something on the lines of 30% casualties. The huge naval victory at Tsushima came just two weeks later and infected Japan with a case of ‘short victorious war’ syndrome that was not cured until two atomic bombings. One might say the American victory in the Gulf War gave it a very similar disease not cured until Iraq round II.
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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by speaker-to-trolls » 2008-12-06 03:42pm

Cpl Kendall wrote:
speaker-to-trolls wrote:Hey, why not? We already have South African Planet (Pretoria, not that popular anymore I don't think), Mongol Planet, Arab Planet, Russian Planet (in fact I think there are now two of those) and Apocalypse Now Planet.

Having said that, a chain-katana would just be bizarre, really that's the only way I could describe it.
I'm drawing a blank on the Apocalypse Now planet, which would that be? Catachan?
Yes it would. Someone else called it Planet Rambo, I'm not sure if that's more appropriate, since the Catachans themselves are an army of Rambos, but the planet itself is certainly enough to leave your mind full of the horror. The horror
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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Swindle1984 » 2008-12-06 06:30pm

Samuel wrote:
Sea Skimmer wrote:People tend to overplay the whole banzai charge thing with the Imperial Japanese Army. Half the time they happened, any other attack would have failed even WORSE because it would mean staying further away from allied force… which means they’d suffer extremely heavily from artillery fire. Charging meant quickly closing the range so that didn't happen, at least against machine guns and rifle fire the Japanese had a chance of winning. The IJA was screwed in general because it was lightly equipped and especially it had awful communications, both factors directly stem from Japan being a poor country which had quite rightly invested heavily in naval and air power instead of land weapons. The IJA’s true tactic of choice was outflanking, and they conquered all of South East Asia that way.
Didn't they repeatedly try double envelopment against the Russian Army during the 1904-5 war? I also found it hilarious- outnumbered they tried to surround the Russian! And the Russians retreated!
The Russian military has, historically, been a joke. For most of their history, they relied solely on raw numbers to defeat the enemy. Half the time, they couldn't even arm all of their soldiers and they were expected to pick up weapons off the bodies of the dead. Their logistics were, more often than not, nonexistent.

Strategically and tactically, they also fail stupendously. Japan, with its shitty small arms and inferior numbers, kicked their asses. In WWI, they generally defeated Austro-Hungarian troops in battle through sheer numbers, but German troops, equipment, and strategy were vastly superior in every way. Not only did the Russians throw away hundreds of thousands of soldiers in any given battle, but they did so because they were fucking MORONS and not because they had any real disadvantage. "Hey, let's broadcast our orders, troop movements, and plans over the radio without encryption!" They lost several battles because their generals were all feuding with each other and refused to provide reinforcement or support. In the Winter War, a force of over two million Russians with thousands of tanks and aircraft got its ass kicked by around 40,000 Finns with less than fifty tanks and aircraft total. In WWII, the US had to help them out with lend-lease so they could get enough small arms, munitions, and vehicles to actually wage war outside of their own borders. Once they had enough industry (what they didn't burn when Germany rolled in) going that they could support themselves, they managed to beat back a force that was waging a two-front war and was short on resources, and then conquered Eastern Europe, which the Germans had already conquered for them. And they still took ungodly casualties. They invaded Afghanistan and got their asses kicked so badly that they abandoned the job and left. They were there for YEARS and couldn't accomplish what the US did in WEEKS.

The height of the Cold War was the height of Russia, and they still couldn't do jack shit with the most massive military in the world. Today, they've got soldiers pimping out recruits for gay sex, AIDS is rampant, they can't equip half of their troops with body armor, most of their armored vehicles are horribly obsolete, they fucked up repeatedly in Chechnya, and their grandest military accomplishment since WWII was the invasion of Georgia, a country that could have been taken by a squad of boy scouts armed with Daisy BB rifles. And they still got their shit ruined in a number of engagements.

The only reason anyone considers Russia an actual threat is because they have nuclear weapons. Of course, most of those nukes are decades old and Russian maintenance seems to largely consist of "is less than 75% of it rusted? Da? Then it's fine." I've seen photos of Russian missile silos where the missile was almost completely submerged because of ground water seepage. So God only knows how many missiles would actually launch if WWIII broke out tomorrow, much less how many would actually hit their targets and detonate properly.
Samuel wrote:
Swindle1984 wrote:Who are the guys that look like WWI German stormtroopers, complete with gasmasks, trench coats, and stahlhelms?
These guys?

Image

They are the Death Corps of Krieg.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Death_Korps_of_Krieg
I looked around that site, and it was actually the Steel Legion I was thinking of. They look pretty much the same.

Gotta love the WWI German trench warfare look. If I was into 40k, those would be my boys. As it is, all I've got is ten Space Marines a friend gave me that I haven't even bothered to paint.
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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Samuel » 2008-12-06 06:40pm

Steel Legion is tanks and mechanization. Death Corps is trenches, grinding siege warfare and insane fanaticism. Needless to say, Steel Legion is probably more fun to play- I don't think the table top has good rules for trenches.

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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Pulp Hero » 2008-12-06 10:22pm

Yeah but Death Korps has those awesome cyber-horse cavalry.
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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Chris OFarrell » 2008-12-07 03:08am

Swindle1984 wrote:

In WWII, the US had to help them out with lend-lease so they could get enough small arms, munitions, and vehicles to actually wage war outside of their own borders.
Wrong, the vast VAST majority of the small arms, munitions and vehicles used by the Red Army in WW2 were home grown, Lend Lease was relatively insignificant and only really picked up steam in later 44, by which time the Red Army had won most of the critical battles they had to fight against the Germans.

Once they had enough industry (what they didn't burn when Germany rolled in) going that they could support themselves, they managed to beat back a force that was waging a two-front war and was short on resources, and then conquered Eastern Europe, which the Germans had already conquered for them.
Only a small fraction of the German armed forces were fighting in the West against the allies -and it still took the Western allies quite a bit of time and a couple of false starts to push into Germany. The VAST MAJORITY of German firepower and manpower was deployed against the USSR and the USSR was fighting that more or less on their own and I will point out a lot of Eastern Europe actually fought WITH the Germans AGAINST the USSR, and they had to be taken out as well, including Finland, Hungary, Romania...

And they still took ungodly casualties.
In pure military casualties, only in the very early years. In 43, 44, 45, you can see there is a steady and sharp decrease in the Russian casualties, despite being on the offensive rather then the defensive, because they had become the undisputed masters of strategic land warfare.

And I'll also point out the fact that Zukov made the Japanese armies in the East his BITCH when the Red Army redeployed for August Storm, annihilating the IJA in a textbook assault that used combined arms and lighting warfare at its finest.

They invaded Afghanistan and got their asses kicked so badly that they abandoned the job and left. They were there for YEARS and couldn't accomplish what the US did in WEEKS.
Did you perhaps notice that the US is STILL fighting in Afghanistan against more or less the exact same type of enemy the Soviets did and 'winning' in about the exact same way? Did you perhaps notice that the Russians didn't put very many men into Afghanistan at any point -less then the total international force in there now IIRC- and more or less ended up in the same stalemate situation we are in now?

The height of the Cold War was the height of Russia, and they still couldn't do jack shit with the most massive military in the world.
...Because they didn't send more then the smallest FRACTION of that massive military into Afghanistan? Did you perhaps remember the whole 'MAD' thing, with tens of thousands of nukes pointed at each other that tended to discourage military adventurism?

Just about every strategic analysis had the Red Army overrunning Western Europe in a VERY short time with their conventional forces, should it ever come to that. Of course, then the nukes all fly and its game over, hence why it never happened.

Today, they've got soldiers pimping out recruits for gay sex, AIDS is rampant, they can't equip half of their troops with body armor, most of their armored vehicles are horribly obsolete, they fucked up repeatedly in Chechnya, and their grandest military accomplishment since WWII was the invasion of Georgia, a country that could have been taken by a squad of boy scouts armed with Daisy BB rifles. And they still got their shit ruined in a number of engagements.
You're absurdly overstating your case here.

Yes the Russian army has problems. But they have utterly CRUSHED Checknya. The first time they went in, they got their asses handed to them because they sent in crap units in small numbers. The second time they went in, they f*#ing flattened the place and have long since taken it all back, having all but exterminated the terrorists using the place. They are hardly using horribly obsolete stuff, their 'in service' stuff is actually generally quite new and/or heavily upgraded. I'll also point out that the US couldn't supply all of ITS people with modern body armor when they went into Iraq, most NG units were using 1970's era 'flack jackets' for the love of God. There are always problems supplying the latest and greatest kit and Russia went through some very patchy times in the 1990's which did much damage to their armed forces, but its an absurd overstatement to call them worthless.

And given the utter balls ups the US has made of Iraq and Afghanistan, I'd hardly be pointing fingers.

The only reason anyone considers Russia an actual threat is because they have nuclear weapons.
Tell that to all the states around Russia who want 'in' to NATO. You really think they fear Russia using nukes on them and thats why they want in?

Of course, most of those nukes are decades old and Russian maintenance seems to largely consist of "is less than 75% of it rusted? Da? Then it's fine." I've seen photos of Russian missile silos where the missile was almost completely submerged because of ground water seepage. So God only knows how many missiles would actually launch if WWIII broke out tomorrow, much less how many would actually hit their targets and detonate properly.
Which is why they have been deploying newer ICBM's to replace a lot of their older ones, most of which are in fact in perfect working order because the Russians place great importance on keeping their nuclear weapons working. They did have maintinence problems in the 90s, but they have placed great importance on trashing their older nukes and keeping/introducing their newer / new nukes in response, albeit at lower numbers of total warheads.

Seriously dude, do some research.
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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by hongi » 2008-12-07 03:33am

Seriously dude, do some research.
I don't know how you can manage to remain polite to an idealogue with no freaking clue.

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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by MoralCompass » 2008-12-07 12:18pm

Chris OFarrell wrote: Only a small fraction of the German armed forces were fighting in the West against the allies -and it still took the Western allies quite a bit of time and a couple of false starts to push into Germany. The VAST MAJORITY of German firepower and manpower was deployed against the USSR and the USSR was fighting that more or less on their own and I will point out a lot of Eastern Europe actually fought WITH the Germans AGAINST the USSR, and they had to be taken out as well, including Finland, Hungary, Romania...
Minor nitpick, but wasn't Finland actually defending it's own soil from a Russian invasion, as opposed to working with the Germans to invade Russia?

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Re: For the Emperor! Banzai! (WH40K idea)

Post by Captain Seafort » 2008-12-07 12:30pm

MoralCompass wrote:Minor nitpick, but wasn't Finland actually defending it's own soil from a Russian invasion, as opposed to working with the Germans to invade Russia?
In the Winter War, yes. However, the Finns lost a fair bit of territory in the treaty that ended it, so allied with the Germans for Barbarrossa, in the hope of getting it back.
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