Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

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Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-11-13 02:00am

As the name says. This will basically be where I decide to put all the Epic stuff (or stuff I think is probably epic) including the latter armageddon stuff. I think there's enough epic material to warrant its own thread, at least.

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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-11-13 02:01am

First Entry comes from "Armies of the Imperium"

Page 6
Unlike most worlds in the Imperium Spacee Marine homeworlds are not obliged to provide tithes for the Adeptus Terra or recruits for the Imperial Guard. Instead their entire resourcs go to maintain the Space Marine Chapter.
Like the AdMech, the Space Marines are exempted from Guard tithing, though some chapters (like the Ultramarines) seem to do so anyhow.

Page 6
Space Marine chapters often fight together in armies of several Chapters. In large wars as many as twenty Chapters might band together into one army.
The scale of involvment of the Space Marines in war. note that while "Chapters" might be involved, its unlikely they mean the full Chapter, since as a rule Chapters hold back some of their troops to prevent the whole chapter from being wiped out. Having more than 20 chapters involved in a single war seems unliekly though (makes sense, since the Astartes would have a large volume of space to cover throughout the Imperium.

Page 8
OVer the milllennia most of the Chapters have evolved variations on the details laid down by the Codex Astartes. Some have changed quite radically so their organisation and operating procedures bear almost no resemblance to the textbook.
In a pattern rather familiar in the Imperium, what is written down in theory from above does not always translate into what is used in practise. This can be as true of the Astartes as for other arms of the Imperium's forces.

PAge 10
The body of Sanguinius was also placed in stasis and cells from it are still used to create the genetic implants for every Blood Angel Space Marine.

All other Chapters use genetic mateiral from Space Marines to produce implants, but the Blood Angels are incapable of this and rely on cells frawn from the body of their Primarch.
Here its noted that the Blood Angels draw their gene seed directly from tehir primarch still, although the validity of this in later sources I am not sure of. (It isnt even mentioned to my knowledge in the Blood angels novels)

Page 14
A typical Space Marine Chapter has ten companies - although more companies will be created and maintained in times of prolonged war.
Thius isnt the only place I've seen this, it seems to suggest that a Chapter's size is not fixed, at lest in war time. In a way this makes sense, since even Astartes can take large losses in combat and replacements are not easy to come by. One possible rationalization for this is that the "extra companies" are strictly reserve formations held on the home planet (or home base) to replace losses or to perform emergency duties (similar to what hpapened with Ragnar and his Blood Claw pack in the first tow Space Wolf novels.)

Page 14
A Chapter also has at least one Scout Company, made up of young Space Marines who have yet to complete the final stages of their training and bio-chemical enhancement. Until they are ready to join the brother-warriors of the Space Marines they fight as scouts.
Hints at multiple scout companies. This may be another source of the "multiple companies" idea outlined above.

Page 15
Every Space Marine Chapter includes a number of Space Marine officers who fufill special roles within the Chapter. For example, Tech Marines who are expert mechanics, Librarians who have psychic powers, and Chaplains who are important cult leaders.
This seems to suggest that the "officers" aren't stirctly partt of the "thousand man" limit, a concept which seems to make sense given that the naval forces dont always apply either.

Page 15
Not all of these fight in battle, some remain behind the lines monitoring psychic communication and trnasmitting psychic messages to commanders far from the battle itself.[
[/quote]

Librarians as noted elsewhere have astropath-like duties in addition to battle duties.

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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by andrewgpaul » 2008-11-13 01:33pm

Just a nitpick, would it be possible for you ti identify which version of Epic the various sources are from? It sounds like you're quoting from the 2nd edition Imperial armies supplement? (A4 book, B&W cover featuring a Space Marine?)
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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by Venator » 2008-11-13 05:33pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:First Entry comes from "Armies of the Imperium"
Space Marine chapters often fight together in armies of several Chapters. In large wars as many as twenty Chapters might band together into one army.
The scale of involvment of the Space Marines in war. note that while "Chapters" might be involved, its unlikely they mean the full Chapter, since as a rule Chapters hold back some of their troops to prevent the whole chapter from being wiped out. Having more than 20 chapters involved in a single war seems unliekly though (makes sense, since the Astartes would have a large volume of space to cover throughout the Imperium.
That's consistent with the Armageddon wars; I don't have the book on hand at the moment, but over ten Chapters were involved - however, only one that I recall committed all ten Companies.

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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-11-14 12:39am

andrewgpaul wrote:Just a nitpick, would it be possible for you ti identify which version of Epic the various sources are from? It sounds like you're quoting from the 2nd edition Imperial armies supplement? (A4 book, B&W cover featuring a Space Marine?)
I pretty much just guess at the editions based on the dates in the books... Its pretty easy with 3rd and 4th edition because they are thematically and artisitcally quite distinct frrom the earlier stuff... 1st and 2nd tend to be much more closely intertwined, near as I can tell. (For example the 1993 Wargear book borrows heavily on the earlier "battle manual" for alot of its text.)

In this case the title is "Armies of the Imperium" by Jervis Johnson and Rick Priestly. Its from 1991, so I assume its 2nd edition, but I can't guarantee that. Does that help you? :P

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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by andrewgpaul » 2008-11-14 08:28pm

Sounds about right.

For added fun and games, the Epic editions overlap the 40K ones quite a bit. 2nd ed Epic bridges the gap of 1st ed. 40K and 2nd ed, if I remember rightly. Makes for some ... interesting fluff discrepancies sometimes.
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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by Lost Soal » 2008-11-19 03:34pm

Connor MacLeod wrote: PAge 10
The body of Sanguinius was also placed in stasis and cells from it are still used to create the genetic implants for every Blood Angel Space Marine.

All other Chapters use genetic mateiral from Space Marines to produce implants, but the Blood Angels are incapable of this and rely on cells frawn from the body of their Primarch.
Here its noted that the Blood Angels draw their gene seed directly from tehir primarch still, although the validity of this in later sources I am not sure of. (It isnt even mentioned to my knowledge in the Blood angels novels)
Its partly true.
What originally happened is Sanguinius' Blood was used to activate the geneseed and initiate the changes which would create a new marine. When he died they needed to preserve the blood do they injected it into the Sanguiniary Priests who became living incubators for their Primarch's blood.
When its time for new aspirants the blood is taken from the priests and poured into the Red Grail (held/guarded by Corbulo) which the aspirants then drink from to begin the change.
So they do use his cells, via the blood, but there's nothing else which mentions his body being in Stasis. I think Guilliman is the only one.
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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-11-24 04:30am

Another update, same source (Armies of the Imperium) just so we know:

Page 18
The Grey Knights have a fleet of fast warp ships and the best astro-navigatiors that the inquisition can supply.
Here its indiacted that both the quality of the ship (or its warp drives at least) and the navigators as well affect overall warp speed.

Page 20
The Land Raider is designed to offer good close combat support.
Suggestion of Chimera-like roles for the Land Raider even though other sources suggest it is a tank.

Page 21
Dreadnoughts are often very ancient, sometimes many thousands of years old, with memories which stretch back to the early days of the Chatper's history.

...

Dreadnoughts are difficult to build and many of the secrets of their construction were lost after the Horus Heresy. THere are therefore reliatvely few of them in each Chapter
Dreadnoughts are supposedly "rare" tech.. although the numbers they can be amde in and how long they take aren't specified.

PAge 22
It [Codex AStartes] describes not only methods of fighting wars, but also deals with such diverse elements as organising troops, establishing supply lines, clothing and feeding troops, subterfuge and espionage, and of course, countless tactics and ploys to confound the opposing commander.

With such briliant minds as the Space Marine Primarchs Leman Russ and El'jonson offering sagely advice, as well as the ptracitcal wisdom of the great Imperial Guard commander General Tybour, the Codex Astartes has always been regarded as an essential part of every young officer's education.

...
This is because it is presented as a series of discussions and ideas by the most advancecd military thinkers of its day, not as a strict code of practice soon to become out of date. Much of its content is contradictory or inconclusive, representing different aspects of military practice, and this is what makes the volume an eternal sourcee of inspiration to military commanders whatever their personal inclinations.

The Imperial Guard is a vast fighting force and its leaders vary in ability from the most talented genuis to the dullest functionary. The teachings of the Codex astartes provide a minimum standard, enabling the least able to command in an effective if uninspired way. OF course an able commander may rise above this level, and the best commander knows exactly when to apply the ancient wisdom of the Codex and whent o literally throw the book away.
A bit of discussion about Imperial military doctrine and its application. While I believe "Codex Astarrtes" is for the Marines now, and the "Tactica Imperialis" is the generalized tactical reading as described here, the essence remains unchanged as portrayed in later sources (Such as the IG codexes)

To summarize, Imperial Guard officers (in theory) are encouraged to largely think for themselves on the battlefield and basicall exert independence. The Tacitca/Codex is meant to serve as guidelines or advice, not a "rule book" that an officer is expected to follow to the letter. This is of course a two edged sword. While its mentioned that the document should enable evne average commanders to do reasonably well (presumably compensated for by massive logistiical and military might so that number can make up for tactical shortcomings), the officer is by no means REQUIRED to follow these rules. This is good when you have an able or intelligent officer (like Macharius, or Slaydo, ,or Yarrick, or Cain) because it allows them to use their talents to their fullets, but it can also allow an idiot (IE A Dravere or a Von STraub) to fuck things up royally by their own idiocy.

This also tells us that the Guard does indeed seem to embrace many many forms and styles (some contradictory) of combat, which does indeed (again in theory) hint at a great deal of flexibibility. Whether or not it is so in practice depends entirely on the officer(s)

Ultimately this just confirms what is already known: Its less Guard doctrine and training that is the issue, its the officers competencee that affects things

Page 26
Every Regiment consistss of a number of companies and is usually recruited from one world.
Regiments are "usually" recruited from one world, though this implies recruitment of multiple worlds (in the same system?) for a regiment is not unusual either.

Page 27
The Codex Astartes discusses the effects of different patterns and how stripes or patches of various contrasting colurs can be used to break up the shape of a vehicle and effectively disguise it. Not only does this make a vehicle harder to see at a distance, ,but even at short range it means the vehicle becomes a harder target because it is difficult to judge its distance and the direction it is moving in.
[/quote]

The uses of Imperial camouflage.

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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-12-07 02:32pm

Armies of the Imperium, fuither updates


PAge 39
The Rhino armoured troop carrier is the most widely used transport vehicle in the Imperium, in service with the Space Marines, the Imperial Guard, the Titan Legions, and even supplied to the Squats and Knight Worlds. Though the Adeptus Mechanicus manufacture large numbers of Rhinos, most planetary Lords and Space Marine Chapters prefer to build and equip their own locally. The Rhino's enduring popularity is due to the ready adaptability of the vehicle's basic design, and the fact that it can be built from a wide range of materials, from steel to high-tech thermo-plasteen.
Rhinos are mentioned here to be Guard issue as well as Astartes, Forge worlds, and others. While we know the Chimera tended to supplant this in later editions (and it was even hinted that the Rhinos were largely limited to Space MArines, Inquisitors and such) we know from novels (like the Space Wolf novels, Sabbat Worlds Crusade book, etc.) that the Guard or PDF forcecs have been known to use them (and the variants) In principle it doesnt really matter much, ,because the Rhino is not much different from the Chimera in most respects (and in some ways the Chimera might even be better.)

The variety of material design is interesting, though we dont know what quality/grade "steel" it is (is it a real life kind, or some "40K" grade of steel, etc.)

Page 40
The Land speeder is a very fast two man light attack vehicle powered by gravitic-reaction jets which suspend it in the air. The Land speeder is a skimmer, and can make special pop-up attacks as described in the main rules. It is armed with the short ranged but deadly multi-melta, which fires a blast of heat capable of melting steel or boiling exposed flesh.
Effects of a multi-melta and the land speeder design.

PAge 40
The Whirlwind is an adaptation of the Rhino, featuring the addition of a multiple rocket launcher. This provides long range support barrages wihch can be used to cover an advance or a retreat, or to pick off exposed enemy at long distances. It is a useful addition ot the armouries of the Imperium.
MLRS variant of the Rhino, now mainly used by the AStartes. It is known that the Chimera has a MLRS variant (using hunter missiles, as well as the well-known Manticore variant)though as well, so whether or not the Guard employs the Whirlwind or not is a moot point.

Page 40
The Vindicator is another Rhino variant, a heavy, well-armoured and brutal looking tank. Its thunderer cannon fires an extremely powerful but very short ranged shot, used to shift enemy troops from cover, especially from buildings. The terrific blast of the Thunderer shell makes a nonsense of any attempt to take cover behind walls or vegetation, as such cover is soon blown apart!
Again, another Rhino variant largely seen in use by the AstartteS (mainly due to Forge World) but it may not be all that much of a loss.

Page 41
The Predator is based on a substantially up-armoured Rhino body to which is a top-mounted turret and two side-mounted sponsons attached. Each sponsons carries a lascannon, while the turret is equipped with a powerful shell-firing autocannon.

The Predator is one of the Imperial Guard's most common battletanks, ,and is also used by the Space Marines.
Here its noted that the Guard and Astartes both use Predators, which is consistent with the aforementioend sources. (But as we know, Chimeras are equally versatile, even mounting small battle cannon or lascannon)

PAge 41
The Rapier laser destroyer is a slow moving but potent support vehicle. It carries a modified lascannon with four separate barrels. Because this laser blast is diffused through four barrels the weapon is shortened and the blast spread slightly. As a result the Rapier is shorter ranged than a normal lascannon but more likely to hit dispersed targets such as infantry. It is desigend to supporrt advancing infantry and protect them from attack.
Seems more like mobile multilaser platform rather than a lascannon.

Page 42
The Tarantula weapon system is a robotic point-defense installation which can recognise the enemy and eliminate suitable targets using its two lascannons. It is especially useful for dfending fixed sights where many Tarantulas can be controlled remotely from an undeground bunker or other command centre away from teh battlelines. The Tarantula can move under its own power, using its gravitic-reaction motors to hover. It can therefore be used to support an atack or help defend a battlefield position.

On the battlefield the Tarantula can be controlle dfrom a position behind the front lines or from an orbital ship.
Here tarantulas can be fixed and mobile, whereas in later editions they're entirely static. Its also both automated, or can be remotely controlled (either from orbit or from the ground), indicating a fair bit of versatility. Its not known wehther "mobile" versions of the Tarantula still exist, but its possible given the Guard still uses antigrav in some ways. Alterantely you could fix them with wheels or treads (like the cyclops robot tank).

Page 43
Robots made solid if somewhat limited troops because they rely on a progrgam which determines what they do on the battlefield. Despite this they have many advantages over ordinary troops, as they are stornger, better armed, and do not need to check morale
Limitations of robots on the battlefield. In practice they seem to basically be dreadnoughts/Sentinels/Tarantulas remotely controlled or run on fixed programs (Basically) rather than a servitor.

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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2008-12-21 04:14am

Page 44
The Imperial Guard is raised from the planetary defence forces and organised into distinct armies. When a new army is to be raised, the Adeptus Terra determines which of the Imperium's million planets is next in line for recruitment. Some planets have small populations and are only liable for recruitment once every hundred years or so, while other more populous worlds provide more troops and may be chosen for recruitment two or three times a decade.

...

If the officer si satisfied with the fighting qualities of the planet's best troops he recruits whole regiments inot the Imperial Guard.

A typical regiment may between two and six thousand men strong and as there are over a million worlds in the Imperium the potential number of recruits is enormous. THe size of an individual army depends on circumstances, but it is quite common for armies to icnlude more than a hundred regimetns in all.
The status of this tends to merge more with old rogue Trader stuff and may be superseded more by the "regimental tithing" system in later editions, but we do know of some worlds having all "single regiment" armies or something analogous (The Elysian forces deployed in Dark Apostle, or the Valhallans in REbel Winter come most immediately to mind. And of course the Kriegers frrom IA5 Siege of Vraks.)

One could speculate that its done on a "case by case" basis. Regimental tithing may be the more common method as it allows a much greater degree of flexibility in assmebling armies - you can tailor your forces with distinct capabilities to address a task (since some 40K worlds produce "specialist" fighters like the Catachans or the Elysians.). It also allows for multiple tithing without significantly depleting the planet - (armies would be drawn from multiple planets to recruit enough men.) The downside of this is that such forces may not be as "experienced" working together and need time to work up to any level of cooperation. Armies tithed from a single world may have the experience or cooperation that comes with "working together", but it would more rapidly deplete the world's forces (hence why it would be done this way infrequently) and takes away some of the specialization. But if there is an emergency and you don't have time to amass forces from several locales, this may certainly be your only option. Both have their merits and drawbacks, so we may presume they employ both depending on the exact circumstances.

Page 44
Once a regiment joins the Imperial Guard it receives no further recruits.

...

Of course, after twenty years of fighting the army is as hard-bitten and battle-hardened as it is possible to be.
Canon tends to flip-flop alot on this issue, and it even varies in literature depending on the author. Sometimes you ge tthe regiment getting recruits in one way or another (From the homeworld, from planets that are visited, etc.) while in other cases they just keep fithing until they're whittled down into nothing (and may be lumped together with other "reduced" regiments to form an entirely new regiment.) This may reflect that the policies vary from segmentum to segmentum, possibly even from sector to sector.

Page 44
If a regiment is successful it will be allowed the honour of joining an invasion force to fight for possession of a new world, and if the world is conquered the regiment earns the right to reitre from the Imeprial Guard and settle on the new planet. In this way new worlds are added to the Imperium and settled by hardneed warriors well able to defend themselves as well as survive in a hostile enviroment.

Many of the Imperium's planets were originally settled in this way by an old regiment itself recruited frfom an established world. AS a result individual world cultures are transportted from one side of the galaxy to the other, overlaid with the martial traditions of the Imperial Guard and strengthened in a fronteir envrioment where only the storng survive. Old Warrios become the founding members of a hard bitten aristocracy, while regimental commanders become the first of a dynasty that will rule the new planet. Within a few generations a world will have prospered and its population multiplied sufficient to provide fresh regiments for the Imperial Guard.
Another example of the way the Imperium employs its forces to maximum benefit. When troopers are too old to be "useful" militarily, they are allowed to colonize new worlds, bringing new (loyal) worlds into the fold and thus adding to the material/resource and manpower wealth the Imperium can draw upon. Another benefit of this is that it allows the military training/expertiese of the parent world to be transplanted into a new locale (hopefully) - something that would be quite useful when it comes to the more sophsiticated/advanced regiments (like the Cadians)

This may in fact help explai why a fair number of worlds seem modeled after "Cadian" equipment nad practices.

Page 46
Regimental HQs comprise a number of huge mobile command centres called Leviathans. These are served by space surviellance and the reports of battelfront commanders, aerial reconnaisance, and long range scanners. A regiment almost always has sedveral Leviathans operating behind the lines, maintaining communications with all the company HQs in that zone.
Guard regiments here are noted to have access to aerial and space surveillance data as well as scanner/sensor (IE auspex) information as well as serving as communications hubs. This will be elaborated on in more detail later.

Page 50
Assault companies are somewhat different from tactical Imperial Guard in that are made up from fast, highly mobile assault troops equipped with jet packs and close combat weapons.

...

Assault troops are used to spearhead attacks or to clear buildings or other securly held enemy positions.
As we know, the whole "tactical/assault" thing was transferred over to Space Marines from the Guard, but we could infer that simialr troops like that may or may not still exist (some sort of paratrooper variation perhaps)

Page 50
A heavy company troop is represented by four ordinary trooper models plus a model with a lascannon.
Lascannons it seems implied here are man-porttable in early Epic

PAge 51
A simple to operate and effective weapon, the Ogryn Ripper Gun, has been invented specially for them. This has a short range but is quite heavy, reflecting the Ogryn's great strength and preference for close fighting.
Description of the Ripper Gun.

Page 53
The Manticore is another lightly armoured support weapon taht carries a potent barrage weapon, in this case a rack full of storm Eagle rockets. The Manticore must be reloaded each time after it fires.
[/quote]

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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by andrewgpaul » 2008-12-21 06:03am

Lascannons it seems implied here are man-porttable in early Epic
Indeed; they look like this (bottom right). Note the guy on the bike holding one.
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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by Shadowtraveler » 2008-12-28 05:31pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:Canon tends to flip-flop alot on this issue, and it even varies in literature depending on the author. Sometimes you ge tthe regiment getting recruits in one way or another (From the homeworld, from planets that are visited, etc.) while in other cases they just keep fithing until they're whittled down into nothing (and may be lumped together with other "reduced" regiments to form an entirely new regiment.) This may reflect that the policies vary from segmentum to segmentum, possibly even from sector to sector.
Perhaps it depends on circumstance? In the case of Tanith and the like, they're on Crusade, so resupply is going to be difficult if not impossible. Cain's 597th regiment is not, and due to beuraucratic error is getting twice as many recruits than normal.

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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by The Dark » 2008-12-31 11:00pm

andrewgpaul wrote:
Lascannons it seems implied here are man-porttable in early Epic
Indeed; they look like this (bottom right). Note the guy on the bike holding one.
Dark Heresy doesn't outright state it, but the existence of a "Man-Portable Lascannon" (MP Lascannon) in the Armory suggests there are both man-portable and non-man-portable versions, since there'd be no need for differentiation if all lascannons were man-portable.
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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-01-04 08:59pm

well they started out as more bazooka like weapons, but later on they seemed to be more "HMG type" in carrying or deplyment. I'm going to assume there are varying types. The pic does bring back memories (drawings and figurines in the early 1st/2nd edition stuff)

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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-01-04 09:21pm

Page 54
The Leviathan super-heavy command centres form teh mobile headquarters of an Imperial Guard regiment. Each contains extensive communications and surveillance gear used to co-ordinate the regiment in action, including spy satellite link-ups, lines to orbitting spacecraft, control gear for tiny flying spy robots, and direct links to each company HQ unit.
A listing of the capabilities of the Leviathan command vehicles. Note it implies deployment at the regimental level or so. It includes "spy satellite link ups" and communication ot orbitng ships (sensor and fire support, presumably) as well as flying robots (drones of some kind, probably something like a servo skull or a servitor drone or remotely controlled a Imperial Guard Cyclops.)

PAge 54
Every regiment has several Leviathans, any of which can command the entire regiment if neccessary.
A possible indicaton as to how common Leviathans are. (We know they're used in modern times... the Cadians had them on Cadia during the outbreak of the 13th Black Crusade)


PAge 54
The Leviathan also has four void shields, which work in the same way as a Titans. This means it can sustain a number of hits without taking damage.
This could arguably put a Leviathan on the scale (size/mass) and durability of a Titan (even a small one)

Page 55
The Shadow Sword super-heavy battle tank is a massive fighting machine which looks ore like a mobile fortress than a tank. It carries a crew of 12 men to operate its fearsome battery of armaments, control its engines and direct its ponderous movements. The Shadow Sword is as big as a building, and weighs upwards of a thousand tons.

...

Its rather something difficult to move something that weighs a thousand tons and which is wider than most streets!
Size and mass of a Shadow Sword. Its worth noting that these differ alot from the Superheavies as presented in the Forge World supplements. Perhaps those were "downscaled" Super heavies (The way the Macharius is)

Page 55
THe Shadow Sword's main armament is a huge laser cannon called the Volcano Cannon, a weapon so powerful that others like it are used to defend planets against attack from space, firing through the atmosphere against drop ships and low-orbiting space ships.

...

The Shadow Sword also carries two lascannons in its auxillairy turrets, and many bolters which fire from restricted fire slits.
Armamen tof a Shadowsowrd. I'll note that I doubt the Shadow Swords weapon is quite THAT powerful, but it could be. It might be analogous to some heavy point defense weapon useable against small spaceships (like the smaller destroyers or large fighterS) as well as drop ships. Certainly thats about the scale of firepower needed to take on Titans (Megaton-gigaton). Recoil would be a reeal pain in the ass much more than low gigaton (and even megaton range would be problematic for a laser) - they'd definitely need some sort of force field system to help deal with considerably greater recoil anyhow.

Page 55
The BaneBlade is based on the same huge building-sized armoured body shell as the Shadow Sword with various modifications incorporating further armament and a separate turret. The Baneblade super-heavy tank does not carry any weapon as powerful as the Shadow Sword's Volcano Cannon, but it does carry more wepaons and is better able to take on hordes of opponenst thanks to its varied armaments and many bolte rpositions.

..

The Baneblade is armed with a battlecannon which fires powerful explosive shells and a lascannon which shoots blasts of energy. It is also mounted with many bolt guns to protect the vehicle from infantry and other short range attack.
Baneblades in t his era were the same size/mass as Shadow Swords (no wonder in the latter Soul Drinkers novels one could be used as a base)

Paged 56
The Storm Hammer is one of the three types of Imperial super-heavy tank and is just as well armoured as the Shadow Sword and the Baneblade. It is built for a close assault role and carries mostly short ranged weaponry. The Storm Hammer has two main turrets each carrying deadly cannons and four smaller turrets equipped with lighter bolters.

...

The Storm Hammer is designed to bring its armament to bear all round - as a close assault super heavyh tank it would otherwise be vulnerable to attack from the sides and rear.

l...

To further protect it against attack it has specially thickened side and rear armour.
This superheavy never seemed to see the light of day at Forgeworld, but a "close in" heavy assault tank (A Super-heavy demolisher in my mind)

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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by andrewgpaul » 2009-01-05 01:46pm

I'm not sure what your position on the changing GW fluff is, but Shadowsowrds were originally described as being equipped with a Defence Laser. As the name implies, it's the same thing as described in Rogue Trader as used in an anti-starship role (albeit, possibly against small ones). The Imperator Titan had one equipped with anti-aircraft targeting systems.
Baneblades in this era were the same size/mass as Shadow Swords
They still are, aren't they? Or am I misunderstanding you?
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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-01-05 02:33pm

andrewgpaul wrote:I'm not sure what your position on the changing GW fluff is, but Shadowsowrds were originally described as being equipped with a Defence Laser.
YEah it mentioned that, and my position is fairly simple. I don't toss something out unless I have to, because given the way 40K its there's a good possibility that even the older fluff still exists in some form, somewhere. And as a rule alot of the BL authors (and even fluff authors) seem to do the same thing (Graham McNeill being a notable example.) Hell even Forggeworld likes to revive old concepts too. :P

So my idea is that the older and bigger Shadowswords/Baneblades probably exist alongside the newer (and less massive) ones, but possibly (or likely) less common and less often produced. After all, Leviathans and even I think the capitol Imperialis and other bigass vehicles still exist in some form or another.

Edit: If you were wondering if I was intent on ignoring the newer Forgeworld stuff due to my opinions on some of it, don't worry. I won't ignore something outright unless I can make a good and consistent case that it has been overridden and there is a definite NEED for it to be thrown out. Which means the newer Forggeworld stuff is for the most part as Valid as anyy other source (newer or older.)
As the name implies, it's the same thing as described in Rogue Trader as used in an anti-starship role (albeit, possibly against small ones). The Imperator Titan had one equipped with anti-aircraft targeting systems.
I imagine its "anti-starship" in the sense it can shoot down attack craft (fighters, bombers and dropships/shuttles - all of which can be as massive as a superheavy/Titan in their own right or as large as a small SW Corvette.) Titans have definite limits on size and power and its not bloody likely they toss around more than low GT firepower at best (and I only tenatively attirbute them that possibility at that.) simply because a Titan can't be large enough to really threaten a starship. (Hell, the point defense weapons on a cap ship are arguably larger than Titan weapons- 13th Legion and Dark Disciple mention this I blelieve.) At the very best I'd put a Titan weapon on part with a small escort's weapon (and likely then no more than point d efense itself.)

Plus a number of defencee lasers are also stated to be dual purpose, with also being able to attack targets on the ground too. You can only have something like that be so powerful (recoil compensation alone will impose limits on tarrgeting and tracking and weapon size) and still be able to be anti-ship and anti-fighter and ground attack. On top of that a number of fluff soures (like the Space wolf novels) and others generally describe defense lasers used to engage much smaller targets (such as Space Marine drop pods.)

They still are, aren't they? Or am I misunderstanding you?
Well technically, some patterns like the Lucius are slightly heavier (319 vs 316 for the Mars pattern) and the sHadowsword follows the Mars pattern. But thats nitpicking and I think you misunderstood me. I simply stated that to establish the connection for that "era" of Baneblade vs Shadowsword, as the Baneblade's size/mass was NOT explicitly stated in that book. And some people wouldn't neccesarily have accepted that case without corroboration or direct statement. This doesn't bear on how the newer material is presented, since I treat those as separate/newer/more common designs.

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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by andrewgpaul » 2009-01-05 07:20pm

Edit: If you were wondering if I was intent on ignoring the newer Forgeworld stuff due to my opinions on some of it, don't worry. I won't ignore something outright unless I can make a good and consistent case that it has been overridden and there is a definite NEED for it to be thrown out. Which means the newer Forggeworld stuff is for the most part as Valid as anyy other source (newer or older.)
No, I was wondering if you were treating more recent info (such as the size of Superheavy tanks) as replacing the older.
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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by white_rabbit » 2009-01-06 05:05am

The difference between Defense Lasers and Volcano cannons is simple, a Volcano cannon is a stripped down defense laser. The one on top of an Imperator is a defense laser with all the trimmings, the auto-tracking mount etc.

This is explicitly mentioned somewhere that escapes me this second, but thats the case. How powerful a defense laser depends on how much power the gun has behind it, and there are clear differences twixt the fairly puny gun (all things considered) thats on top of an Imperator, or fixed to a Warlord or Reaver, and the colossal doom guns that exist on say, Vraks or the Sabbat cluster world in Tactica Imperialis and kept the Imperial ships away.

I think the case of the thousand tonne superheavies and their smaller Forgeworld brethren is one where we can't really justify keeping the thousand tonne versions as on a wing and prayer so to speak. They are thoroughly and repeatedly repudiated in the current edition, and its unlikely to ever change. The most recent representation with a 1000k lookalike I can think of is one of the Sabretooth games cards, with what looks like a classic UberBlade running some Son's of Horus guys over.

If such thousand tonne tanks exist, and I don't doubt something of that size does in 40k, then you can't really call them Shadowswords or Baneblades, they simply aren't that big anymore, and as it stands, theres two, maybe three editions of 40k, the last edition of Epic, and pretty much every novel with a Baneblade in standing against the idea.

It sucks, because the thousand tonne versions were cool, and made more sense for the scale of the weaponry they used to tote, but Forgeworld basically set the plot for this, and I suspect a certain guy called Tony had it in mind since Rogue Trader given some of the models he did. (total conjecture). I think this is going to be the case for a lot of information in 40k now, because the FW books are an easy source of numbers, and most authors don't write tech info, they write stories which they need to crib some tech info for occasionally.
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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-01-10 11:25pm

andrewgpaul wrote:
Edit: If you were wondering if I was intent on ignoring the newer Forgeworld stuff due to my opinions on some of it, don't worry. I won't ignore something outright unless I can make a good and consistent case that it has been overridden and there is a definite NEED for it to be thrown out. Which means the newer Forggeworld stuff is for the most part as Valid as anyy other source (newer or older.)
No, I was wondering if you were treating more recent info (such as the size of Superheavy tanks) as replacing the older.
generally I tend to treat it al as l of equal merit unless one overrides the other (in which case I tend to go by what is the most frequently used interpretation.) though reconciliations of some kind or another may be possible. We know alot of authors (and companies like Forge World) recycle old material from time to time, so its hard to say what may or may not be non canonical. Of course some things obviously do. (For eample, I recall that in the very earlier stuff the Emperor was treated as somehow still being alert and awake and directing matters in the Imperium.. which conflicts with much later stuff. There's also probably the Illuminati and the Sensei and STar Child stuff. Though even then you might fit it in there all somehow.)

The thing about keeping the "massive" superheavies of earlier editions and the "lighter" ones we know about in latter editions is that we know 40K is a big galax, and we know that things tend to vary quite a bit from sector to sector or segmentum to segmentum. Its a safe bet the things exist somewhere in the Imperium, and may even retain that name, but its possible the design got "re-named" in other sectors for various reasons. (I vaguely recall Armageddon sector naval ships are very similar to other cruiser classes used in other sectors, but evolved their own classes.)

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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-01-27 03:49am

Small update this time... almost done though..

Page 56
The Gorgon is a large, slab sided vehicle with thick armour and monstrrous tracks. It is used to carry infantry under heavy fire, such as in a siege or when attacking an enemy defence line.

...

The Gorgon's high sides protect the infantry inside.

...

The Gorgon can carry up to 5 stands (25 men) and they disembark in the same way as troops leaving any other vehicle. The Gorgon is armed with short ranged mine launchers which lob large barrel-shaped charges a shortt distance ahead of it sadvance to clear out enemy troops.
The Gorgon. Naturally this too was resurrected by Forgeworld.

Page 57

The Bombard carries a large siege mortar which lobs very heavy shells onto enemy positions. It is extremely good at bursting apart armoured formations, as the sheer weight of the missile can stove in armour and split apart the most heavily armoured tanks
(has a crane in the drawing)

The good old Bombard. Throws a massive shell. In many ways I suspect the sucker is close to battleship-grade in terms of momentum (mainly due to the mass of the shell, but this is purely subjective on my part. Given the power of tank and Artillery though this may not be unrealistic.)

Page 58
THe basilisk is a self propelled artillery piece mounted with a logn barrelled cannon known to the Imperial troops as the 'Earth Shaker' because of its tremendous recoil. THe Earth Shaker is has a long range and is used to pound enemy positions from a distance prior to a general advance.

...

The Basilisk is allowed tofire two barrages rather than just one.
(Basilisk also appears to have a crane, so this suggests the shells might be heavier than a man can carry.) It also seems to be implied that the things have a very high rate of fire.

PAge 59
Many of the largest Titans carry missiles which they use to attack other Titans, massed troops, and fortifications. These missiles can also be modified to be fired from a Deathstrike launch vehicle.
This helps establish that the Titan missiles share a distinct similaritie/commonality with Deathstrike missile launchers.

Page 59
Tactical missiles have complex robotic guidance systems which enable them to seek out and destroy their targets. In the turn it is fired the missile climbs high into the air from where its cameras can see the whole battlefield. Once the missile's robotic brian has selected a target the missile dives down to ground level from wher it heads towards the target at slow speed, weaving round buildings and under obstructions, dodging enemy fire.

... The missile travels upward in a high arc to scan the battlefield for targets then descends to about 10-20 metres above the ground.

...

The missile will then fly over the heads of firendly troops or non-preferred enemy, and will also avoid buildings, hills, and terrain features by flying over or round them.
Titan missiles in detail. The robotic bit probably is a "machine spirit" in modern terms, but still probably fucntions the same way (smaller hunter killer anti-tank missiles in the Guard Codex have their own robotic brains after all.) Optical targeting, fire-and-forget, and ground-skimming.. it sounds alot like a cruise missile in many respects.

Its also fairly reasonable to say the missiles have a very long range (Tens or hundreds of km)

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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-02-06 02:56am

Last update for Armies of the Imperium.

Page 59
Barrage missile: This contains a multiple plasma warhead capable of vapourising a large target or area of ground. It is particularily useful for depleting the void shields on a Titan.

...

Harpoon. The missile is designed to penetrate the outer casing of a titan and short out its control systems. Once control of the target has been removed from its crew the missile's own computer brain can control it to some extent. THe Harpoon can also be used against other targets, in which case it spowerful electromagnetic pulse is usually sufficient to destrroy the target outright,


...

Warp missile: The Warp missile contains a miniature warp drive which skips the missile in and out of warp space, allowing it to bypass the shields and thick armour to materialise directly inside the target where it explodes with devastating effect.
Variable types ofTtian missiles. Barrage missiles are plasma warheads and a quasi "MIRV" type weapon. Harpoon missiles seem to be part EMP and part cybernetic/hacking weapons (it can invade and take over the computer systems of the opposing Titan.) Amusingly the EMP of the harpoon can "destroy other targets" (presumably like tanks) outright, hinting the weapon may be a small nuclear device instead of a non nuclear EMP weapon (and explain also why it can breach titan armor without destroying it.)

The Warp missile is interesting both for its ability to "ignore" shields and for its teleportation abilities (even in/on a planet). Presuambly larrge scale (fighter and capital ship) versions existed.

Page 61
It [Leman Russ] is well armoured and carries a heavy battlecanon and a lascannon as well as bolters in small cupolas to pick off enemy infantry who get too close. THe battlecanon fires a powerful armour-bursting shell, while the lascannon shoots a burst of laser energy.
Note that the Russ' battle cannon is noted for anti-armour work.

Page 62

[]quote]
Even compared ot the towering Leviathan the Capitol Imperialis si a vast vehicle, a mobile base so huge it can carry two full companies of infantry or tanks. On inhospitable planets these lumbering machines act as fortresses and shelter for the Imperial Guard troops inside, protecting them with its thick armoured plating and void shields.[/quote]

The Capitoal Imperialis is bigger than a Leviathan, can carry tanks, and has void shields.

Page 62
Alghouth it is really too heavy and slow to be used in an attack role the Capitol Imperialis's defensive value is tremendous. It is heavily armoured and protected by void shields. Although its primary function is defensive the Capitol Imperialis is no stranger to conflict.

...

The Capitol Imperialis therefore has 6 void shields to protect it.
The capitol imperialis is mostly for defense (and quite good at it) but probably also serves a command and control function.


Page 62
The Capitol Imperialis' main armament is its rapid firing Behemoth Cannon, this dischrages a curtian of explosive shots designed to keep the ennemy away.

..

The super-heavy Capitol Imperialis is so massive that it cannot be eaisly brought to close combat. It is rather like trying to fight against a huge skyscraper or city block!

....

The Capitol Imperialis's high close assault factor represents its vast bulk and the many bolter guns and other light weapons studded over its surface which provide close range fire power against attacking infantry.
Mention of its armament (behemont cannon must be nastier than the Leviathan's main weapon, esp if its faster firing) and the lighter weapons. Also note the comparison to skyscraper or city block, hinting at the scale.

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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-03-16 03:01am

This time I'm goign to do a bit of backpedalling, to an earlier source, and one that may look familiar. I actually covered this in a fairly incomplete fashion much earlier and the stuff can be found here, but I decided to cover it again because I could do a better job of it. Will I do thsi with other books? I dunno. I have alot of stuff to cover and it may be some time before I ever get back to it. Mainly I'm doing it because a.) I didnt realize I'd already done it when I was trasncribing it, so much of the material was alreay put down, and b.) I did a lousy job last time and I'm doing better now (I've actually been getting more detailed in analysiss later. I may need to make a point of recovering some of my earlier analysis like Execution Hour for this reason) c.) I made some outright stupid errors.

Anyhow, on with the stuff.

Page 3
War is the universal state of Man; peace is onyl a brief time of preparation for further fighting. Alien races strike at the Imperium's frontier systems. Rebellion and treachery are commonplace on millions of colonised worlds.
This source again implies more worlds than just the "million" world figure often quoted. Whether this means single or double or even triple digit millions (or billions, as some sourcse suggest) is unknown. I think we can safely say though that there are more than just the million worlds, even if they are "lesser" ones.

Page 4
It was at this time that psykers- humans capable of using psionic powers such as telekinesis and telepathy - first arose in the midst of humaity.

..

For more than five thousand years warfare tore humanity aparrt.
Five thousand years of psychic activity and its catastrophic effects

Page 4
Terraformed worlds reverted to their natural condition and as they did so, humanity suffered. Through chance and depleted gene-pools, some colonies underwent a forced evolution, producing new sucecssor species: the stocky Squats, the powerful Ogryns and the Beastmen.
Apparently human terraforming either wasn't stable in some cases or most cases or it somehow backfired. Or maybe the magical warp just perverted and disrupted it. I think we can attribute the "forced evolution" to magic warp effects, unless we attirbuted some (like the squats perhaps) to genetic engineering. In any case the "Terraformed worlds reverting" isnt an unusual concept, some 40K novels cover this concept fairly common, and its quite possible many of the Deathworlds (or at least the more intelligent/virulent ones) arose from this.

Page 4
Although only modest in size, the galaxy contains around four hundred thousand million stars. Of these, only a fraction are orbited by planets which are habitable or within human tolerances. And of these few, still fewer have been investigated and settled by humanity. This 'few' hoewver, numbers millions of worlds and systems; the exact number is unknown.

It is simply impossible to count the systems where humanity or one of its sub-species can be found. New worlds are constantly being discovered and added to the Imperium but, even so, no end is in sight.
the 40K galaxy has 400 billion stars (this puts it on the scope of the SW galaxy), although its possible they are only estimating the number, since they dont know for sure how many human-habitable planets there are (or otherwise habitable). It also does indicate what we've kinda known - the scale/size of the Imperium fluctuates- new worlds are added, colonised, and others are lost to warp storms, destrroyed, conquered, etc.


Page 4
By doing so [warp drive], a spacecraft can move hundreds or thousands of light years in only a few hours. And the power to move such distances is also a power that wins battles and maintains empires: a troop-carrying space barge can make the same jounery with equal ease.
This is an interesting quote because it suggests very high FTL speeds possible (for the Imperium) - hundreds of thousands ot millions of times c. Still no better than (or even a bit slower) than SW hyperdrive, but it does give us an indicator of the "higher end" capability. What is also intresting is that this is implied to apply to troop transports and possibly long range civilian cargo (and thus warships could possibly be faster. The Spacee MArines and Inquisition and ARbites are dobutless faster.)


Page 4
Warp space is a spearate and complex universe that exists besides our own reality. For every point in realspace there is a corresponding location in Warp Space. The two universes are intimately connected but by no means follow the same laws. Simply because two locations are separated by tens of light years in reality the same does not hold true for the common points in warp space, which effectively might be only a few miles apart.
An interesting implication. That the possible difference in distance scales could be massive - tens of light ytears translates easilly to hundreds of trillions of kilometers. Considering known Starship accels for 40K (hundreds or thousands of gees easily) this suggests it could be, in theory, possible to cover colossal distances in relatively short periods of time - thousands or tens of thousands of light years an hour. Note, however, this completely ignores the time effects between realspace and the warp, and it assumes a very calm warp (which for obvious reasons is unlikely for the most part.) Hell, even then its by no means meant to be taken as a "average" or even an upper limit. IT may be purely theoretical, rare, or a freak occurance. (Considering its possible to arrive at a location before you left in the warp, - this would pretty much rank right up there.)

(ts more likely these "speeds" would correspond to waht the Eldar can pull off in the webway.

Page 4
Maintained by the Emperor's will, the Astronomican shines across reality and warp space. It gives Navigators an accurate fix on Terra, enabling them to steer spacecraft safely through the currents of warp space.
The Astronomican, as described in many soures, basically tells Navigators were Terra is in the Warp, and provides them a stable, fixed point to allow for even reasonably accurate plotting to figure out what points in the warp may correspond to given points in real space.

Page 4
In warp spacec, however, nothing is ever straightforward. It is a universe fillwed with cross-currents, eddies, and whirlpools of power. Warp storms can flare up in seconds, blocking travel through huge reaches of the warp. These storms can last for millenia or be gone in seconds, but while they exist travel to some parts of the real universe is impossible through the affected areas of the warp.
The dangers and problems of warp travel, and why it is so deadly and unpredictable. Of course, since starships can "sail" or be pushed along by the Warp as well as use their own engines , it is possible to be beneficial too (if uncontrolled.)

Page 5
Titans are immense fighting machines, mechanical warriors up to 100 feet tall.
The "old" Titan sizes, which have been retconned in almost any source save a Graham McNeill novel. I only mention it for posterity's sake.

Page 5
Titans are powered by comparatively old-fashioned plasma reactors. Although rarely used in the Imperium since the Dark Age of TEchnology, nothing else can provide the power needed by a Titan. The Titan's Void shield generators alone require such huge amounts of energy that nothing else will suffice. Even the tight operating margins of a Titan's plasma reactor - and the consequences of a melt-down or runaway reaction - are a small price to pay for the energy needed.
Curiously, this seems to be an older convention which may not apply in "modern" 40K, but is interesting nonetheless. Plasma reactors were considered "old fashioned" but powerful (if dangerous) in comparison to other forms of power (not stated, but possibly fusion and natimatter would be included. We can safely include fusion because fusion reactors are known to exist and they don't explode like plasma reactors. Antimatter is known in 40K, but rarely mentioned. Its possible it is considered too inefficient to rely on as a power source.

Page 5
The Void Shields are the Titan's main line of defense. A shield absorbs damage until its Void Shield Generator becomes overloaded. Cut offs prevent the Generator burning out when this happens, but the shield still collapses. However, once the excess power has been drained off, the Generator can be restarted, raising the Void Shield once more. Where possible, Titans carry a sufficient number of generators so that, in theory, some of its shields will be operable at all times. In practice this may not always be the case, and once a Titan has lost its shields it is vulnerable. In emergencies the Princeps can override the VSG cut-offs, pushing the Shields to their limits. If it works, this risky tactic can defeat almost any tactic. If it fails (as is most likely) the Princeps will reduce his titans defenses to pools of useless, molten slag.
Description of titan void shields. Generally they seem to behave as absorption/retransmission deviecs, as I've noted before. They absorb power until overloaded, when they switch off and bleed off the excess energy. And as noted they seem to incorporate multiple void shield generators, either to cover multiple arcs, or provide multiple layers - given the bit about "some shields operable at all times" redundancy seems likely, but it is possible void shields can be fairly localized.

Also interesting to note is that some void shields seem to have a "safety margin" perhaps for emergency purposes, but in emergencies the shields can be pushed to that limit if needed.
It is not known what percentage of the capability represens the safety margin and normal operating, but logic tells us it probably isn't greater than "regular" operating capacity.

Page 5
The plasma generators also provide power for many of the weapons; power transmission via hydroplastics coupled to actuators.

..

A titan's limbs are moved by electrically motivated fibre bundles which function very much like muscles.
Description of titan motive power and power transmission systems. Note to transmit the level of power Titans are known to possess (easily in the gigawatt to terawatt range) I would imagine those power trnasfer elements are quite robust (example of superior Imperial materials science, probably.)

Page 5
Battle Titans and Emperor Titans are among the most numerous, but there are lesser types, such as the dreaded Psi-titans and the fast, lightly-armed scout titans.
The much loved Psy-titans, though it seems they are less powerful than an Emperor (minus the psychic stuff, of course.)

Page 5
Battle Titans stand between 40 and 80 feet tall. Each Battle Titan is protected by up to six Void Shield Generators and armed with a variety of weapons.

...

Emperor Titans are taller - some 70 to 100 feet tall - and considerably bulkier.
More Titan sizes, again included purely for posterity.


Page 5
For longer than there has been an Imperium there have been Warlord Class Battle Titans, their design history stretches back ot the Final War period. It is popular with all the Military Orders of the Collegia Titanica and millions have been built to the design over the millenia
"millions" of Warlord Battle Titans have been built over "millenia". This tells us that hundreds or thousands could be built a year, but it doesnt tell us how many places would be building them or how many millenia. Still, it is an interesting indicator of titan construction rates.

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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by Connor MacLeod » 2009-04-05 09:06pm

Part 2 of Adeptus Titanicus (And yes, I was stupid enough to forget to mention the first time WHAT I was covering, I apologize for that) I think it's epic. Well if it isn't someone will tell me. and Its staying here anyhow.

Page 5
Each Titan is operated by a crew of three to five, all of whom are linked to their machine through mind-impulse units.

...

The Princeps need only think that he is walking, running, or whatever: the mind-impulse system and the fiber-bundles do the rest, translating his thoughts into movement by the Titan.

...

The crew are protected within individual support bubbles that can be ejected from the Titan in an emergency. Each support machine includes data and view screens that display wepaons readouts, outside views and target information. Manual controls for use in the event of a mind-impulse failure are also provided.

....

The mind impulse units link the crew and the Titan on the ost intimate level. Thoughts become the actions of the Titan.

...

For the most part, ,feedback dampers prevent the crew from feeling damage suffered by the Titan. Failure in these systems is fortunately rare, for the crew then suffer terrible pseudo-injuries and pain as the Titan is damaged.
Titan crews and mind impulse units described, and the ejection systems as well.

Page 6
Casualities among inexperienced Titan crews are high, but if a crew can survive one or two battles its combat life expectancy increases by several orders of magnitude.
Its interesting to note casualties are high - it makes you wonder why, since Titans are so rare and hard to make.

Page 6
Titans were first used during the Dark Age of Technology and the first of the Alien Wars: during that period of time each human colony had at least one titan Legion, and many had dozens deployed in their defence.
That suggests many millions if not tens of millions of legions, and tens if not hundreds of millions of titans during the DaoT. Insane.

Page 6
By the time of the Imperium only one group knew how to build, maintain, and operate the Titans - the tech-priests of the Adeptus Mechanicus.
Naturally only the AdMech can do it, they're the ones who insist that all Tech belongs to them as it is. So if there WERE any other gorups who did they would either have been folded into the AdMech or wiped out.

Page 7
Each Order [of the divisio Militaris] is based on its own forge World, and includes many ground combat troops and support staff in addition to the Battle Titans. Some of the Military Orders are highly specialized forcecs, created to deal with Siege works or combat in exotic planetary atmospheres, for example.

No Order, however, is allowed to have its own space transport, it is a matter of Imperial policy that this must be provided by the Imperial Fleet. Transportt is denied to the Military Orders for good, if historical, reasons. During the Horus Heresy more than half of the Titan Legions joined the Rebellion. With their own transport ships they were able to fight mobile campaigns, and Titans even took part in the ssiege of the Imperial Palace. In the reorganisation that followed the HEresy, the Military ORders were deliberately made reliant on the Fleet for transport; deprived of mobility, rebels could be quickly isolated and destroyed.
...

Over a hundred of the Divisio's Orders are stationed near the Eye of Terror to combat the Chaos Titans of the banished and mutated traitor Legions. The remainder are scattered at strategically important sites across the Imperium.
Each Ttian Legion "ORder" is then, in essence, its own self contained organic military force much like the Astartes, as the AdMech have their own fleets of ships (including massive transport ships, which evidently retcons the above about them not havng any ships, sincee the novels and BFG have described AdMech vessels and they build the fuckers to begin with as it is) This presumably includes APCs (Chimera or Rhino), tanks (we know the Conquerors were used for that role b ythe Skitarri, but they presumably have Predators and other Russes) and presuambly air assets (Gunships and aircraft, likely, but its also possible dropships serve in the air support role.)

Note that with each Titan beign assigned to a Forge World, theres probably at least thousands of Titan Legions (one per sector is likely, as each Sector has at least one Forge world). Several is likely, though. With a dozen or so Titans per legion, this means that there are tens or hundreds of thousands of Titans of all types.

With the cyborgized Skitarri as troops, combat servitors and robots (stuff we saw in Dark Apostle), and all the rest, the AdMech are a highly mobile and versatile attack force. Now if they weren't such total dicks...

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The Executive ORders of the Divisio Mandati travel in vast temple-spaceships, bringing the pax Imperia to the isoalted worlds of the Imperium. Each temple ship carries between two and five of the immense Emperor Class Titans, plus priests, regular troops, maintenance adepts and other support personnel.

In turn, each Emperor Class Titan is a self-contained unit carrying members of the Adeptus Arbites, the Inquisition, and the Adeptus Terra. It is their task to bring the pax Imperia to all the worlds in their care.

...

Some of the Executive Orders never move beyond the boundaries of the Imperium, having a regular diocese under their peripatetic care. Others specialize in taking the word of the pax Imperia beyond the boundaries of Imperial Spacee. These Missionary Orders, often operating in support of Rogue Traders, are the elite of the Divisio Mandati.
Missionary and colonizing work seem to be meant to utilize Titans as well. PResumably these aren't "ofifically" attached to any Forge world. They seem to be an independent force (though can work with others lke Rogue TRaders). My guess in modern canon though these would be analgous (or perhaps superseded by) Explorator fleets.

Page 6
The Divisio Telepathica operated the dreaded, but very rare, Psi-Titans, and is somewhat smaller than either the Divisio Militaris or Divisio Mandati. The Telepath Orders each operate from a hidden Forge World near the heart of the Imperium - ready to respond to dire crises in huuman space.
Ah yes, the Psyker Titans, and an example of how the Titan ORders can be specialized. They sound nasty, but we're not told ever quite WHY they are so nasty (or rare). Presumably they employ Psykers in some format, but is there also somethign else about the Titans that makes them so formidable? Perhaps the Titans amplify psychic abilities. OR they are better conttrolled/more effective somehow.

They also more or less sound like the Superhero version of the Ttian Legions.

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Ford Prefect
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Re: Epic 40K analysis thread (all versions)

Post by Ford Prefect » 2009-04-06 04:23am

Connor MacLeod wrote:Its interesting to note casualties are high - it makes you wonder why, since Titans are so rare and hard to make.
Titans are rare and very powerful, but one must remember that their primary foes are going to be Titan scale threats. If you're a new Princeps going into his or her first battle, and you encounter an opposing war-machine in your own weight class, I don't think your safety can be guaranteed by anything except your own guts.
That suggests many millions if not tens of millions of legions, and tens if not hundreds of millions of titans during the DaoT. Insane.
The Dark Age of Technology was a pretty wild time, apparently. They sound like the standard armoured unit of the time.
Ah yes, the Psyker Titans, and an example of how the Titan ORders can be specialized. They sound nasty, but we're not told ever quite WHY they are so nasty (or rare). Presumably they employ Psykers in some format, but is there also somethign else about the Titans that makes them so formidable? Perhaps the Titans amplify psychic abilities. OR they are better conttrolled/more effective somehow.

They also more or less sound like the Superhero version of the Ttian Legions.
Psy-titans are probably one of the single most mysterious elements of the Imperium. They showed up in an OOB in an issue of White Dwarf, but all pertinent information about them was censored. I guess the only thing we can infer is 'psykers are pretty killy' and 'Titans are pretty killy', so psychic Titans should probably be extra killy. Personally, I tend to envision them as being somewhat like Grey Knights writ massive.
What is Project Zohar?

Here's to a certain mostly harmless nutcase.

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